Question For Pti Fans

[skinee]

There's a very good possibility that Imran Khan will not win these elections... so what's the plan after that? What's plan B? All these Pakistanis that want a revolution, what will you do if he's not elected and God forbid Nawaz Sharif, or worse, PPP wins?

If IK wins, and not much changes, then what?

I feel like everybody's putting all their eggs in one basket here, and placing way too much hope in the a system which has continuously failed to deliver.

[The Green Knight]

Its a foregone conclusion that the healthy changes needed can not be made even if PTI wins as a majority until quite some time. The reason being the senate which is full of crooks, terrorists and foreign puppets for hire and was placed last year. The senate's term will have to end naturally or otherwise for any new pro-people or logical laws or amendments to be passed and approved.

[AnaAmmar1]

if a muslim believes any system other than imamate and wilayat,he needs to learn islamic system of government.

in these election,lets say imran khan gets 2/3rd majority,he is free to do anything in this country.

pti is better than other parties(i am not sure),but we really dont know what will happen if they come in power.

in the end,ultimate decision power is military and establishment.

[Marbles]

There's a very good possibility that Imran Khan will not win these elections... so what's the plan after that? What's plan B? All these Pakistanis that want a revolution, what will you do if he's not elected and God forbid Nawaz Sharif, or worse, PPP wins?

Revolution cannot come through the ballot box. Seeing how things are on the ground I don't think Pakistanis are looking for a revolution.

If IK wins, and not much changes, then what?

A Pakistani Barack Obama and a few more books to read five years down.

I feel like everybody's putting all their eggs in one basket here, and placing way too much hope in the a system which has continuously failed to deliver.

You're right. There is a band of diehard supporters of Imran who see him as some sort of messiah. I ran into some of them just after the Lahore Jalsa when the prospects of Imran's win were rather slim. I was verbally abused and assaulted any time I dared doubt the agenda and ideology (or lack of it thereof) of Imran.

I never set much store by Imran and his PTI. If they deliver, well and good. They'll have my moral support and duas. If they don't, well then it'd the same old continuation of the same old things.

[The Green Knight]

I won't blame the PTI fans or their zeal. Truth be told, the nation and the country has little choice when choosing their poison in the elections.

[skinee]

I won't blame the PTI fans or their zeal. Truth be told, the nation and the country has little choice when choosing their poison in the elections.

as true as that is... don't pakistanis see that as a major problem? we may be a democracy, but in a sense we're not because we're forced to choose between a few corrupt leaders. democracy is a failed system and i don't see why are unable to wake up to that.

PTI may be the least worst, but most probably they still will not win. Leaders are only a collective reflection of the people and their mentality. Pakistan is a corrupt nation, and unless people themselves are willing to change, they shouldn't expect our leaders to either.

Edited May 8, 2013 by skinee

[Sapphire]

PTI Plan B??? Hmmmmmm. Sit in the opposition maybe. Exposing the corrupt for what they are.

Whether or not IK owns up to the 6 promises that he made to the Pakistani nation is debatable.

Too much faith in this failing system is futile. But that does not mean we as indiviuals should forget our responsibility. We are partly responsible for this failure of the system by not voting. I am too guilty of this. It has recently dawned on me that if I do not go to the polling booth my identification can and will be used to cast false votes which I don't want.

I am neutral in my views and I don't support anyone though PTI is a religion for my family. But I will still go to the polling booth and stamp "no vote" or "none of the above" section of the ballot paper as illustrated below in the attached image. Or maybe I will write down my name on the ballot paper and stamp it. :D

Maybe who knows IK might be the change Pakistan needs.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Sapphire

[AnaAmmar1]

PTI Plan B??? Hmmmmmm. Sit in the opposition maybe. Exposing the corrupt for what they are.

Whether or not IK owns up to the 6 promises that he made to the Pakistani nation is debatable.

Too much faith in this failing system is futile. But that does not mean we as indiviuals should forget our responsibility. We are partly responsible for this failure of the system by not voting. I am too guilty of this. It has recently dawned on me that if I do not go to the polling booth my identification can and will be used to cast false votes which I don't want.

I am neutral in my views and I don't support anyone though PTI is a religion for my family. But I will still go to the polling booth and stamp "no vote" or "none of the above" section of the ballot paper as illustrated below in the attached image. Or maybe I will write down my name on the ballot paper and stamp it. :D

Maybe who knows IK might be the change Pakistan needs.

[Sapphire]

i dont think this option exists.i am not sure.can you provide the source please?

[Wizdom]

PTI Plan B??? Hmmmmmm. Sit in the opposition maybe. Exposing the corrupt for what they are.

Whether or not IK owns up to the 6 promises that he made to the Pakistani nation is debatable.

Too much faith in this failing system is futile. But that does not mean we as indiviuals should forget our responsibility. We are partly responsible for this failure of the system by not voting. I am too guilty of this. It has recently dawned on me that if I do not go to the polling booth my identification can and will be used to cast false votes which I don't want.

I am neutral in my views and I don't support anyone though PTI is a religion for my family. But I will still go to the polling booth and stamp "no vote" or "none of the above" section of the ballot paper as illustrated below in the attached image. Or maybe I will write down my name on the ballot paper and stamp it. :D

Maybe who knows IK might be the change Pakistan needs.

[AnaAmmar1]

:D

i m sure our ballot paper doesnt look like this.

fakhruddin ibraheem g said they will try to use this option but he never confirmed.

wizdom LOOOOL :D

[Sapphire]

i m sure our ballot paper doesnt look like this.

fakhruddin ibraheem g said they will try to use this option but he never confirmed.

It was a joke. :dry:

Yeah that is what I heard. This option did not materialize due to the protest of the political parties. I am heartbroken. :(

[AnaAmmar1]

It was a joke. :dry:

Yeah that is what I heard. This option did not materialize due to the protest of the political parties. I am heartbroken. :(

yea me too

[The Green Knight]

@skinee: What choice do people have? Surely, the foreign aided militant / terrorist groups who want to shove a Wahabi caliphate down our throats is a nightmarish idea that'll put dark age scary stories to shame. I've also often been thinking how, even if possible, can we overthrow this anti-human system of fake democracy and replace it with, say, socialism (or whatever). The supreme court is only good for looking at transvestite and terrorists' rights. So? What do you say?

Edited May 8, 2013 by Darth Vader

[skinee]

It was a joke. :dry:

Yeah that is what I heard. This option did not materialize due to the protest of the political parties. I am heartbroken. :(

You can still do that... just mark all the candidates.

@darth vader... the only choice that people have is to change themselves individually and to help others change. Successful societies are made by people, as governments are also made up of the same people. You can vote for PTI, and this may be a successful short term effort... but the point of my OP was to raise the question about a long term effort. If Imran Khan died in the fall, where would that leave you? If he doesn't turn out to be the savior, where does this leave Pakistan? he may bring good changes for his term, but what comes after him? These questions are more directed towards true PTI believers to look beyond and think long term.

[Marbles]

You can still do that... just mark all the candidates.

@darth vader... the only choice that people have is to change themselves individually and to help others change. Successful societies are made by people, as governments are also made up of the same people. You can vote for PTI, and this may be a successful short term effort... but the point of my OP was to raise the question about a long term effort. If Imran Khan died in the fall, where would that leave you? If he doesn't turn out to be the savior, where does this leave Pakistan? he may bring good changes for his term, but what comes after him? These questions are more directed towards true PTI believers to look beyond and think long term.

Democracy in Pakistan is an evolving enterprise just as it is in any other society. If the process is let to continue, only then the bad ones will be eventually rooted out and better people will take their places. It is too early to ask what would happen if Imran (or any other person or party for that matter) doesn't deliver and too soon to ask what will happen after Imran.

Moreover, there are also degrees to which a government can deliver; a limit to which it can improve the socioeconomic fractures of the society. It takes a long time for systems to become stable and it takes generations for practices and institutions to become strong enough to continue working without a stream of lifelines.

For 100-150 years or so every American elections were marred by violence, conflicts, corruption so much so that votes were bought with hard cash. It took a long time for America (and other Western countries) to develop precedences which led to stable political institutions outlining their roles, obligations and duties.

It takes a long time to learn to change a society to the point that it doesn't revert to its old ways. Remember that democratic set up as inherited from Britain is a relatively new system imposed on an old-style agrarian, feudal society and it will take its due time before it settles.

Take the case of modern Turkey. Founded in 1930s, until recently, the institution that was ruling the roost was unsurprisingly the one that was most powerful - the military. In Eastern countries used to old ways, the one who has the power has the right to rule. Things have just begun to change there now that a civilian government is delivering good governance to the population and thus in turn has their full support.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Marbles

[Enchanted]

We are partly responsible for this failure of the system by not voting.

Or maybe I will write down my name on the ballot paper and stamp it.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Enchanted

[Sapphire]

^^ Yes it is.

YAAAAYYYY for me. I have two votes. :wub:

[Marbles]

The more people vote, the less each vote counts.. That obviously wouldn't apply to Pakistan. Isn't the voting system rigged?

Some degree of rigging exists just as it exists in each and every developing democracy. It's part of the process. But the last elections were surprisingly free and fair. I'd say almost up to 95% voting was correct and therefore no party disputed the results. This time it is going to be fair again because no party can afford to rig.

Where have you been hiding?

Edited May 8, 2013 by Marbles

[Enchanted]

Some degree of rigging exists just as it exists in each and every developing democracy. It's part of the process. But the last elections were surprisingly free and fair. I'd say almost up to 95% voting was correct and therefore no party disputed the results. This time it is going to be fair again because no party can afford to rig.

Where have you been hiding?

No way, I've always been under the impression that the elections are massively unfair, with decisions and results having no connection to the ballot paper. I've heard of times when results have been announced without the voting process even ending.

I've not been hiding, I've just been lost in a labyrinth!

[skinee]

Democracy in Pakistan is an evolving enterprise just as it is in any other society. If the process is let to continue, only then the bad ones will be eventually rooted out and better people will take their places. It is too early to ask what would happen if Imran (or any other person or party for that matter) doesn't deliver and too soon to ask what will happen after Imran.

I suppose the question really isn't Imran, the real question is how much reliance/belief you put into the system, which is a good place to take the discussion.

Moreover, there are also degrees to which a government can deliver; a limit to which it can improve the socioeconomic fractures of the society. It takes a long time for systems to become stable and it takes generations for practices and institutions to become strong enough to continue working without a stream of lifelines.

For 100-150 years or so every American elections were marred by violence, conflicts, corruption so much so that votes were bought with hard cash. It took a long time for America (and other Western countries) to develop precedences which led to stable political institutions outlining their roles, obligations and duties.

I don't think any country can truly be compared to any other country due to the infinite number of factors involved in a country's success. If we had to compare though, I would say that many other countries have achieved a lot more than Pakistan (and America) in half the time that Pakistan has had, with a lot less resources as well. Current system has proven to be a total and utter failure, allowing this system to thrive any longer makes the situation worse.

I should add Pakistan's issue stem well beyond the government. Goes all the way through from the police force to education. Even if a good government comes in, they'll have to figure out a way to root our corruption.. but how? (main point below)

It takes a long time to learn to change a society to the point that it doesn't revert to its old ways. Remember that democratic set up as inherited from Britain is a relatively new system imposed on an old-style agrarian, feudal society and it will take its due time before it settles.

Take the case of modern Turkey. Founded in 1930s, until recently, the institution that was ruling the roost was unsurprisingly the one that was most powerful - the military. In Eastern countries used to old ways, the one who has the power has the right to rule. Things have just begun to change there now that a civilian government is delivering good governance to the population and thus in turn has their full support.

The main point I would like to make here is that a country's failure/success is dependent on its people, not the government. I advocate a bottom-up approach not top-down.

Some degree of rigging exists just as it exists in each and every developing democracy. It's part of the process. But the last elections were surprisingly free and fair. I'd say almost up to 95% voting was correct and therefore no party disputed the results. This time it is going to be fair again because no party can afford to rig.

Where have you been hiding?

If they are fair elections, then I suppose people are only getting what they deserve since they voted these heart-less criminals into government?

[The Green Knight]

@darth vader... the only choice that people have is to change themselves individually and to help others change. Successful societies are made by people, as governments are also made up of the same people. You can vote for PTI, and this may be a successful short term effort... but the point of my OP was to raise the question about a long term effort. If Imran Khan died in the fall, where would that leave you? If he doesn't turn out to be the savior, where does this leave Pakistan? he may bring good changes for his term, but what comes after him? These questions are more directed towards true PTI believers to look beyond and think long term.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Darth Vader

[Marbles]

You guys are talking theory. You know its never going to happen.

Suppose a relative of mine is a corrupt beaurocrate (sp?), a XEN in Wapda who earns millions each month. How and what am I going to tell him that'll make him stop? His salary of 40,000 rs. isn't even enough to pay half of his household's utility bills. Even a Junior Engineer with only a few years of experience under his belt and working in a private consultancy today is earning close to 100k rs. The govt knows this full well. Same goes for police officers, judges, and everybody else. They get nothing if they are honest. Honest or God fearing minority of people in fact no longer apply or aim for govt jobs because the establishment has made sure that each and every department and its office and its personnel all must take bribes even in order to survive.

Exactly. This is nightmarish stuff. I mean, how do you fix this corrupt-to-the-core bureaucracy that's been gifted to us by the gora saheb? Over the decades as politicians and military have wrangled over who controls the reins of this untamed donkey of a country, Pakistan's bloated and inefficient bureaucracy has become a self-serving institution. In some ways it acts like a mafia. Politicians who come to power have very little control over the inner workings of the bureaucracy. They then court those bureaucrats to have their work done. It's like the real power lies with the bureaucracy whose employment is as permanent as the sky over our heads. Come what may, once a government "servant", always a government "servant". I believe they wouldn't behave like mast Pharaohs if those arrogant bureaucrats feared losing jobs.

The idea of democracy is a joke. When it was applied in Turkey it was what nearly a century ago. Today we have mobile phones with internet. Even a donkey cart driver with no shoes on his feet owns one. If power is to be given to the people, the very essence and spirit and heart and soul of the idea behind "democracy" then in this day and age we no longer need representatives or assemblies or senates. Even the donkey cart driver can exercise his right and use the mobile phone's GPRS to vote and pass or reject the bills and motions DIRECTLY, as well as present them. ALL can do this. In fact, instead of the usual 23-30% turnout, this way there will be over 80% participation by the people. All the while all this only needs a few computers somewhere to act as a server and less power and backup systems than a cellular network tower needs. But no, that never was the idea. Even the Kingmakers are corrupt beyond belief and that is why they want this rotten system right as it was during the ancient times of Greece. So they can get Leonidas killed each and every time and have their way with the world.

It's a good idea. As technology develops and everyone is connected to everybody it becomes easier to consult the citizenry directly. So there is little need for long established bookish institutions like representatives etc. This is direct democracy. A version of it is already practiced in Switzerland to a degree.

[Marbles]

No way, I've always been under the impression that the elections are massively unfair, with decisions and results having no connection to the ballot paper. I've heard of times when results have been announced without the voting process even ending.

No, if elections were massively unfair and people knew it, there was no point in getting in line to vote. There have been massive rigging in the past though. Sometimes so blatantly open that everyone knew the results before the elections. I am talking about elections 2002 and even a sham 'election' that was held under Zia in 1985.

In the past military regimes had favourites and they made sure the Kingmaker party won. They handed out bans on parties that were not in the establishment's good books. Others were forced to boycott the ballot because they knew the military wasn't going to let them have the fair run. In 2002, N-League's top candidates were banned, PPP was restricted, their leaders exiled. Q-league won because it was the King's party.

Next time, in 2008 elections, the military establishment was too weak to influence the ballot. The recently booming and free media and independent judiciary would have ripped the establishment apart if they tried to rig the ballot. So a fair ballot was made possible and the party that was voted for took power. This is one major reason why a civilian parliament completed its constitutional 5-year term for the first time. The results were genuine unlike in elections held under tight control of the establishment.

This time, in 2013, however, there is no favourite party of the establishment...because they have antagonised the two pain parties over the decades, and they don't have good terms with a couple of smaller parties either. So it's an open field. The establishment has lost a lot of clout. The effects of these are going to be seen in whoever forms the next government. Nawaz has already said he'll open an inquiry to find out if Pakistani intelligence agency - which is a law unto itself - was involved in 2008 Mumbai bombings. I'm sure the likes of Hamid Gul and Aslam Baig are pissing in their pants.

I've not been hiding, I've just been lost in a labyrinth!

Seems you've found your way out of the labyrinth? Don't be lost again ^_^

Edited May 8, 2013 by Marbles

[The Green Knight]

No, if elections were massively unfair and people knew it, there was no point in getting in line to vote. There have been massive rigging in the past though.

^ I'm wondering, what made you think that elections are no longer rigged or predetermined? Like they say, offer a Pakistani some money and they will agree to sell absolutely anything.. And this thing never held truer than now. And the Election Commission or whatever powers that be are no exception to the rule. In fact, the Election Commission, being a only-once-every-5-year undertaking seems like one helluva opportunity for the commissions' personnel to erect their new houses in Defense with a new Corolla in the garage after living in a stench infested little street in perfect anonymity all through their previous lives? Heck, it would be the perfect crime that can never be detected since the party being helped unfairly are the politicians about to come in to power.

[Marbles]

^ I'm wondering, what made you think that elections are no longer rigged or predetermined? Like they say, offer a Pakistani some money and they will agree to sell absolutely anything.. And this thing never held truer than now. And the Election Commission or whatever powers that be are no exception to the rule. In fact, the Election Commission, being a only-once-every-5-year undertaking seems like one helluva opportunity for the commissions' personnel to erect their new houses in Defense with a new Corolla in the garage after living in a stench infested little street in perfect anonymity all through their previous lives? Heck, it would be the perfect crime that can never be detected since the party being helped unfairly are the politicians about to come in to power.

First because helping a party win nationwide ballot through rigging wouldn't go undetected. In fact it would become obviously clear that rigging has taken place and the losing party or parties will make it abundantly clear that it has happened. I'm thinking of Bhutto's re-election in 1977. Bhutto could have won those elections rather easily but being the feudal autocrat, dishonest and overly ambitious that he was, he let his minions undertake massive rigging across the country, hoping he'd get away with it and incorrectly thinking that the military was under his control. The rigging was amply exposed by the parties in the opposition. We all know what followed later.

This is not to suggest that the election outcome is completely free of undemocratic influences, including the good ol' way of casting fake votes. It depends from constituency to constituency and from party to party. Someplace it is easier to rig and even if they don't rig they are predicted to win but they still rig out of habit. They do that because they know no one is going to come and ask them about what they had done. They are the most powerful and influential candidates of the constituency anyway. That's true in rural areas in the interior. Think of a feudal against whom no one has the power/resources to stand.

Besides, election commissioner is the last person to be able to rig a nationwide ballot. He simply doesn't have the power or authority to pull such a feat unless of course the military establishment is behind him. The only party that can rig and get away with it is the omniscient and omnipotent establishment. Last time they failed to influence the outcome; this time so far I don't see them poking their noses in. But God knows what's gonna happen on 11th May.

[The Green Knight]

No, if elections were massively unfair and people knew it, there was no point in getting in line to vote.

By the way, what was the nationwide turnout last time? 23%? 35%? That there is the clearest proof of just how much our people are used to or believe in fair elections. Even with that turnout, a person I know casted some 230 votes on his own of other people who did not come out to vote by using forged NID cards supplied by his superiors in the Q-league. And that is another way how they do it. Personally I've never casted a vote and I usually express my profound indifference in the thing when asked about who I support (though this time I said "PTI" to a few people, as the possibility of PML-N winning would greatly deteriorate my own circumstances), so when a elder cousin of mine heard it, before the last elections, he said: "Your vote will also be cast any way by someone whether you go to the polling station or not. So its better that you vote even if you intentionally disqualify it by stamping over all of them or something."

I think he spoke wisdom.

Seriously, there is no escape from all the ground realities regarding this fake and lame system masked as democracy. I can imagine you would hate socialism or anything different. So would I, probably, unless the Imam (as) returns and establishes the perfect system. Though I'm still all for a proper democracy but I firmly disbelieve in the idea that a change can occur by getting the state and its people gang raped again and again and again by 2500 MPAs MNAs and senators and a million of their relatives for many decades. Turkey is still a toilet, albeit a fancy one with glossy tiles and a semi-working deodorant dispenser.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Darth Vader

[awaiting_for_the.12th]

It was a sad event, but I did crack up watching him fall. He was not going to win in the first place, but now maybe he might win few more seats. But it would be easy win for Sharif. Shias lose is either case.

[The Green Knight]

Old news. I heard its PML-N's turn to rule (by "winning" elections, of course) weeks ago. But I'm a dreamer and hope that it doesn't happen.^^ Otherwise, it'll be the end of Pakistan which is part of the greater scheme, and I have loved ones in the army. The Pak Army won't go down into history as silently and it'll be a awful mess. :(

[Marbles]

Old news. I heard its PML-N's turn to rule (by "winning" elections, of course) weeks ago. But I'm a dreamer and hope that it doesn't happen.^^ Otherwise, it'll be the end of Pakistan which is part of the greater scheme, and I have loved ones in the army. The Pak Army won't go down into history as silently and it'll be a awful mess. :(

Noon League has solid support among the conservative, trader middle class. Since the PPP is dead for all practical purposes, it was only logical that N-league gets the vote this time. But they have a tough rival in Imran's PTI. The elections are too close to call, and both parties have good chances of winning the most seats. However, it is unlikely that either party wins outright majority. The next government will have to be a coalition of two or more parties. Let's hope Noon League doesn't become the leading party at the federal level.

Punjab, however, is going to remain in the hands of Noon League. Most of Lahore and upper Punjab stronghold are voting for Noon anyway. Even some big players in the South Punjab are supporting Noon for undemocratic reasons, ie. baradari vote, mazhab vote or just plain opportunistic vote etc.

People of Saraiki Belt as well as Shias regardless of language and ethnicity voting for Nawaz gang is like Iraqis voting for George Bush but still those at the helm of power have ways to influence their electorate in their constituency for their own ends.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Marbles