Al Kafi Mentions: Imam Died When They Wanted [Re?]

[Ali-F]

Aslamu alaykum

This hadith from Al Kafi

http://www.alseraj.net/maktaba/kotob/hadith/kafi1/html/ara/books/al-kafi-1/111.html

It is something with, that the imams knew when they will die and only on their will, and thats my confusion, not the ilm il ghayeb.

Wasalam

[Nader Zaveri]

(salam)

(bismillah)

This hadith from Al Kafi

http://www.alseraj.n...kafi-1/111.html

It is something with, that the imams knew when they will die and only on their will, and thats my confusion, not the ilm il ghayeb.

All narrations mentioned in this chapter are Da`eef (Weak), except for Hadith #8, which talks about Imaam Hussayn (as) during the battle of Karbala and having help, and him (as) choosing to meet Allaah.

(salam)

Edited May 1, 2013 by Nader Zaveri

[Ali-F]

(salam)

(bismillah)

All narrations mentioned in this chapter are Da`eef (Weak), except for Hadith #8, which talks about Imaam Hussayn (as) during the battle of Karbala and having help, and him (as) choosing to meet Allaah.

(salam)

And the proof is?

[Nader Zaveri]

(salam)

(bismillah)

And the proof is?

Multiple Ghulat, Weak, and Unknown individuals in the chains.

(salam)

[Islamic Salvation]

(salam)

(bismillah)

All narrations mentioned in this chapter are Da`eef (Weak), except for Hadith #8, which talks about Imaam Hussayn (as) during the battle of Karbala and having help, and him (as) choosing to meet Allaah.

(salam)

There is also this

محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن الوشاء، عن أحمد بن عائذ، عن أبي خديجة، عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام قال، كنت عند أبي في اليوم الذي قبض فيه فأوصاني بأشياء في غسله وفي كفنه وفي دخوله قبره، فقلت: يا أباه والله ما رأيتك منذ اشتكيت أحسن منك اليوم، ما رأيت عليك أثر الموت، فقال: يا بني أما سمعت علي بن الحسين عليهما السلام ينادي من وراء الدار يا محمد تعال، عجل؟

[Ali-F]

(salam)

(bismillah)

Multiple Ghulat, Weak, and Unknown individuals in the chains.

(salam)

Do you have sources from our scholars ?

[guest 34193]

All Muslims believe the Messenger (sawa) knew the year in which he going to die (hence the Farewell Pilgrimage and events surrounding that). So, I don't really see an issue with the Imams knowing likewise.

[Aquib Rizvi]

All Muslims believe the Messenger (sawa) knew the year in which he going to die (hence the Farewell Pilgrimage and events surrounding that). So, I don't really see an issue with the Imams knowing likewise.

Brother isn't it that Prophet use to get revelation by god about his death while Imam doesn't?. I came across one hadeeth yesterday in which Imam says they come to know when they are going to die through Inspiration. Mostly everyone does not doubt about knowing their death, because they think Imam posses Ilm ghaib (Knowledge of Unseen) and we know that it's not true, they themselves have denied to have Ilm ghaib.

Here is that hadeeth

4 - محمد بن يحيى، عن محمد بن الحسين، عن صفوان قال: قلت للرضا (عليه السلام): أخبرني عن الامام متى يعلم أنه إمام؟ حين يبلغه أن صاحبه قد مضى أو حين يمضي؟ مثل أبي الحسن قبض ببغداد وأنت ههنا، قال: يعلم ذلك حين يمضي صاحبه، قلت: بأي شئ؟ قال: يلهمه الله.

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from al-Husayn from Safwan who has said the following:

“Once I requested abu al-Hassan al-Rida, ‘Enlighten me, when does an Imam come to know that he is the Imam? Does it take place when the preceding Imam has already passed away or when he is about to leave this world? For example abu al-Hassan, passed away in Baghdad and you were here (in Madina)?’ The Imam said, ‘He comes to know it at the time his companion (the preceding Imam) is about to leave this world.’ I then asked, ‘By what means does he come to know it?’ He said, ‘He comes to know of it through inspiration from Allah.’”

Al-Kafi by Kulayni,Vol 1,Pg 381,H 4

Majlisi:"Saheeh" (Mirat ul Uqool 4/240)

Edited May 4, 2013 by aquibriz

[Islamic Salvation]

Brother isn't it that Prophet use to get revelation by god about his death while Imam doesn't?. I came across one hadeeth yesterday in which Imam says they come to know when they are going to die through Inspiration. Mostly everyone does not doubt about knowing their death, because they think Imam posses Ilm ghaib (Knowledge of Unseen) and we know that it's not true, they themselves have denied to have Ilm ghaib.

Here is that hadeeth

4 - محمد بن يحيى، عن محمد بن الحسين، عن صفوان قال: قلت للرضا (عليه السلام): أخبرني عن الامام متى يعلم أنه إمام؟ حين يبلغه أن صاحبه قد مضى أو حين يمضي؟ مثل أبي الحسن قبض ببغداد وأنت ههنا، قال: يعلم ذلك حين يمضي صاحبه، قلت: بأي شئ؟ قال: يلهمه الله.

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from al-Husayn from Safwan who has said the following:

“Once I requested abu al-Hassan al-Rida, ‘Enlighten me, when does an Imam come to know that he is the Imam? Does it take place when the preceding Imam has already passed away or when he is about to leave this world? For example abu al-Hassan, passed away in Baghdad and you were here (in Madina)?’ The Imam said, ‘He comes to know it at the time his companion (the preceding Imam) is about to leave this world.’ I then asked, ‘By what means does he come to know it?’ He said, ‘He comes to know of it through inspiration from Allah.’”

Al-Kafi by Kulayni,Vol 1,Pg 381,H 4

Majlisi:"Saheeh" (Mirat ul Uqool 4/240)

The wording of the Hadith is significant, that is, it says - Ilham NOT Wahy.

There is no doubt according to Mu'tabar Ahadith that the Aimmah received inspiration from Allah, just as some non-prophet's have received the same as seen in the Qur'an with the examples of the Mother of Moses and Maryam (i.e. they were Muhadath).

Of course we had some Ashab of the Aimmah who did not accept this, and claimed that it is all an inheritence of Knowledge from the Prophet with one father teaching his son and so on, furthermore they even claimed that their decisions were Ijtihad based on this.

As to Ilm al-Ghayb, the denial of the Aimmah is based on the fact that no one knows the WHOLE Ilm al-Ghayb - which is only with Allah, but as the Qur'an has made clear - Allah may share some of the Ilm al-Ghayb with some of his preferred slaves, as he has done with the Prophet in some instances, and there is no doubt that some of this Ilm was inherited by the Aimmah after the prophet.

In short, there are a few glimpses of what is to happen that the Imams knew about, and not everything (the whole picture).

Edited May 4, 2013 by Islamic Salvation

[Aquib Rizvi]

As to Ilm al-Ghayb, the denial of the Aimmah is based on the fact that no one knows the WHOLE Ilm al-Ghayb - which is only with Allah, but as the Qur'an has made clear - Allah may share some of the Ilm al-Ghayb with some of his preferred slaves, as he has done with the Prophet in some instances, and there is no doubt that some of this Ilm was inherited by the Aimmah after the prophet.

In short, there are a few glimpses of what is to happen that the Imams knew about, and not everything (the whole picture).

But, Brother one question come to my Mind that If Allah reveal some part of ilm ghaib to Imam, doesn't that will make Imam more Knowledgeable than Prophet.

[Islamic Salvation]

But, Brother one question come to my Mind that If Allah reveal some part of ilm ghaib to Imam, doesn't that will make Imam more Knowledgeable than Prophet.

Which is why their is a Mu'tabar Hadith which says that - when the Imam is to be taught something current - it is first presented to the Prophet and then to all the previous Imams one after the other before being given to the current Imam.

While some believed that any Ilm al-Ghayb which was known by the Aimmah was as a direct result of inheriting that fragment of knowledge from the Prophet, the same as any knowledge is inherited by natural means.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Islamic Salvation

[Aquib Rizvi]

Which is why their is a Mu'tabar Hadith which says that - when the Imam is to be taught something current - it is first presented to the Prophet and then to all the previous Imams one after the other before being given to the current Imam.

Brother what does your hadeeth says do they get Ilm through Wahy or Ilham.. because hadeeth which i have read says that get to know through ilham, and I dont think it count as ilm ghaib or does it?

3 - محمد، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن ابن محبوب، عن هشام بن سالم، عن عمار الساباطي قال: قلت لابي عبدالله (عليه السلام): بما تحكمون إذا حكمتم؟ قال: بحكم الله وحكم داود فإذا ورد علينا الشئ الذي ليس عندنا، تلقانا به روح القدس.

Muhammad has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from ibn Mahbub from Hisham ibn Salim from ‘Ammar al-Sabati who has said the following:

“Once I asked abu ‘Abd Allah, ‘By what means do you judge when you judge?’ He said, ‘We judge by the laws of Allah and in the manner of David. If a case comes before us to which there is no solution with us, the Holy Spirit provides us inspiration.’”

Al-Kafi by Kulayni,Vol 1,Pg 398,H 3

Majlisi:"Saheeh" (Mirat ul Uqool 4/303)

Edited May 4, 2013 by aquibriz

[Islamic Salvation]

Brother what does your hadeeth says do they get Ilm through Wahy or Ilham.. because hadeeth which i have read says that get to know through ilham, and I dont think it count as ilm ghaib or does it?

3 - محمد، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن ابن محبوب، عن هشام بن سالم، عن عمار الساباطي قال: قلت لابي عبدالله (عليه السلام): بما تحكمون إذا حكمتم؟ قال: بحكم الله وحكم داود فإذا ورد علينا الشئ الذي ليس عندنا، تلقانا به روح القدس.

Muhammad has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from ibn Mahbub from Hisham ibn Salim from ‘Ammar al-Sabati who has said the following:

“Once I asked abu ‘Abd Allah, ‘By what means do you judge when you judge?’ He said, ‘We judge by the laws of Allah and in the manner of David. If a case comes before us to which there is no solution with us, the Holy Spirit provides us inspiration.’”

Al-Kafi by Kulayni,Vol 1,Pg 398,H 3

Majlisi:"Saheeh" (Mirat ul Uqool 4/303)

I have not seen any Mu'tabar Hadith which speaks of it being other than Ilham.

As for Ilm al-Ghayb - it is simply the knowledge which is hidden (eg. of the future). It can come through Ilham or through Wahy.

[Aquib Rizvi]

I have not seen any Mu'tabar Hadith which speaks of it being other than Ilham.

As for Ilm al-Ghayb - it is simply the knowledge which is hidden (eg. of the future). It can come through Ilham or through Wahy.

Ok..I got the hadeeth which your are talking about, it say Ilm ghaib is of two type , One which is Open from them and other which is closed..I hope this is the hadeeth which you were taking about.

1 - عدة من أصحابنا، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن معمر بن خلاد قال: سأل أبا الحسن عليه السلام رجل من أهل فارس فقال له: أتعلمون الغيب؟ فقال: قال أبو جعفر عليه السلام: يبسط لنا العلم فنعلم ويقبض عنا فلا نعلم، وقال: سر الله عزوجل أسره إلى جبرئيل عليه السلام وأسره جبرئيل إلى محمد صلى الله عليه وآله، وأسرة محمد إلى من شاء الله.

A number of our people have narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Mu’ammar ibn Khallad who has said that a man from Persia asked abu al-Hassan, recipient of divine supreme covenant, the following:

“Do you know al-Ghayb (the hidden facts)? The Imam, said, ‘Abu Ja‘far, recipient of divine supreme covenant, has said, “If it opens to us, then we know it, and if it is withheld from us then we do not know.”’

The Imam then said, ‘It is the secret of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, Who has secretly given it to Jibril and Jibril has secretly given it to Muhammad, and Muhammad, has secretly given it to whoever Allah wished.’”

Source:Al-Kafi by Kulayni,Vol 1,Pg 256,H 1

- Majlisi:"Saheeh" (Mirat ul uqool 3/110)

- Hadi Najafi:"Saheeh Sanad" (Mawsu'at Ahadith Ahl al-Bayt 8/214)

[Islamic Salvation]

Ok..I got the hadeeth which your are talking about, it say Ilm ghaib is of two type , One which is Open from them and other which is closed..I hope this is the hadeeth which you were taking about.

1 - عدة من أصحابنا، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن معمر بن خلاد قال: سأل أبا الحسن عليه السلام رجل من أهل فارس فقال له: أتعلمون الغيب؟ فقال: قال أبو جعفر عليه السلام: يبسط لنا العلم فنعلم ويقبض عنا فلا نعلم، وقال: سر الله عزوجل أسره إلى جبرئيل عليه السلام وأسره جبرئيل إلى محمد صلى الله عليه وآله، وأسرة محمد إلى من شاء الله.

A number of our people have narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Mu’ammar ibn Khallad who has said that a man from Persia asked abu al-Hassan, recipient of divine supreme covenant, the following:

“Do you know al-Ghayb (the hidden facts)? The Imam, said, ‘Abu Ja‘far, recipient of divine supreme covenant, has said, “If it opens to us, then we know it, and if it is withheld from us then we do not know.”’

The Imam then said, ‘It is the secret of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, Who has secretly given it to Jibril and Jibril has secretly given it to Muhammad, and Muhammad, has secretly given it to whoever Allah wished.’”

Source:Al-Kafi by Kulayni,Vol 1,Pg 256,H 1

- Majlisi:"Saheeh" (Mirat ul uqool 3/110)

- Hadi Najafi:"Saheeh Sanad" (Mawsu'at Ahadith Ahl al-Bayt 8/214)

Yes this is one of them.

Also others like this can also paint a picture.

أبوعلي الاشعري، عن محمد بن عبدالجبار، عن محمد بن إسماعيل، عن علي ابن النعمان، عن سويد القلا، عن أبي أيوب، عن أبي بصير، عن ابي جعفر (عليه السلام) قال: إن لله عزوجل علمين: علم لا يعلمه إلا هو وعلم علمه ملائكته ورسله، فما علمه ملائكته ورسله (عليهم السلام) فنحن نعلمه

Abu Ali al-Ash'ariy from Muhammad bin Abdil-Jabbar from Muhammad bin Ismail from Ali bin an-Nu'man from Suwayd al-Qala'a from Abi Ayyub from Abi Basir from Abi Ja'far who said: Indeed for Allah there are two types of knowledge, one type of knowledge is the one which no one knows (about it) except Himself, and the other type of Knowledge is the one which He has taught to his angels and messengers, so whatever the angels and the messengers know (from it) - (so) we know it too. (Sahih)

محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن الحسين بن سعيد، عن النضر بن سويد عن يحيى الحلبي، عن ذريح المحاربي قال: قال لي أبوعبدالله (عليه السلام): لو لا أنا نزداد لانفدنا

Muhammad bin Yahya from Ahmad bin Muhammad from al-Husayn bin Said from an-Nadhr bin Suwayd from Yahya al-Halabiy from Dharih al-Muharabiy who said: Abu Abdillah said to me: if it werent that we are increased (in knowledge i.e. by recieving new communication) we would have ran out (exhausted our answers). (Sahih)

علي بن إبراهيم، عن محمد بن عيسى، عن يونس، عن رجل، عن محمد بن مسلم قال ذكر المحدث عند أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام) فقال: إنه يسمع الصوت ولا يرى الشخص فقلت له: جعلت فداك كيف يعلم أنه كلام الملك؟ قال: إنه يعطي السكينة والوقار حتى يعلم أنه كلام ملك

Ali bin Ibrahim from Muhammad bin Isa from Yunus from a man from Muhammad bin Muslim who said: the Muhadath was mentioned to Abu Abdillah, so he said: he hears the voice but does not see the person, so I (Muhammad) said to him: may I be ransomed for you, how does he know that it is the words of an angel? He said: he is given a calm and tranquility (i.e.when it happens) until he recognizes that it is the words of an angel.

محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن ابن أبي نصر، عن ثعلبة، عن زرارة قال: سمعت أبا جعفر (عليه السلام) يقول: لولا أنا نزداد لانفدنا، قال: قلت: تزدادون شيئا لا يعلمه رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله)؟ قال: أما إنه إذا كان ذلك عرض على رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) ثم على الائمة ثم انتهى الامر إلينا

Muhammad bin Yahya from Ahmad bin Muhammad from Ibn Abi Umayr from Tha'labah (bin Maymun) from Zurarah (bin A'yan) who said: I heard Aba Ja'far saying: if it were not that we are increased (in knowledge) (i.e. by receiving new communication) we would have ran out (exhausted our answers), he (Zurarah) said: I said: are you increased in something which the messenger of Allah did not know?

He said: if such a situation arises, it is given (presented) to the messenger of Allah first, then the (preceding) Aimmah (i.e. are made aware of it) then the matter reaches to us. (Sahih)

عدة من أصحابنا، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن أحمد بن محمد بن أبي نصر، عن ثعلبة بن ميمون، عن زرارة قال: سألت أبا جعفر (عليه السلام) عن قول الله عزوجل: " وكان رسولا نبيا " ما الرسول وما النبي؟ قال: النبي الذي يرى في منامه ويسمع الصوت ولا يعاين الملك، والرسول الذى يسمع الصوت ويرى في المنام ويعاين الملك، قلت: الامام ما منزلته؟ قال: يسمع الصوت ولا يرى ولا يعاين الملك، ثم تلا هذه الآية: وما أرسلنا من قبلك رسول ولا نبي ولا محدث

A number of our companions from Ahmad bin Muhammad from Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Abi Nasr from Tha'labah bin Maymun from Zurarah (bin A'yan) who said: I asked Aba Ja'far about the words of Allah عزوجل : "And he was a Rasul, (and) a Nabi" - what is a Rasul and what is a Nabi?

He said: the Nabi is the one who sees in his dreams and hears a voice, but does not (physically) witness the angel (i.e. while awake),

while the Rasul hears the voice, sees in the dreams, and also (physically) witnesses the angel (i.e. while awake),

I (Zurarah) said: the Imam what is his position (i.e. in relation to this)?

He said: he (i.e. an Imam) hears the voice, but does not see (i.e. in his dreams) nor does he physically witness the angel, then he recited this verse : "And we have not sent before you a Rasul nor a Nabi nor a Muhadath .. " (Sahih)

محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن الحسين بن سعيد، عن حماد بن عيسى عن الحسين بن المختار، عن الحارث بن المغيرة، عن حمران بن أعين قال: قال أبو جعفر (عليه السلام) إن عليا (عليه السلام) كان محدثا، فخرجت إلى أصحابي فقلت: جئتكم بعجيبة، فقالوا: وما هي؟ فقلت: سمعت أبا جعفر (عليه السلام) يقول، كان علي (عليه السلام) محدثا فقالوا: ما صنعت شيئا ألا سألته من كان يحدثه، فرجعت إليه فقلت: إني حدثت أصحابي بما حدثتني فقالوا: ما صنعت شيئا ألا سألته من كان يحدثه؟، فقال لي: يحدثه ملك، قلت: تقول: إنه نبي؟ قال: فحرك يده - هكذا -: أو كصاحب سليمان أو كصاحب موسى أو كذي القرنين، أو ما بلغكم أنه قال: وفيكم مثله

Muhammad bin Yahya from Ahmad bin Muhammad from al-Husayn bin Said from Hammad bin Uthman from al-Husayn bin Mukhtar from al-Harith bin al-Mughirah from Humran bin A'yan who said:

Abu Ja'far عليه السلام said: Ali عليه السلام was a Muhadath (inspired), so I went to my companions and said to them: I have come to you with a strange thing, so they said: and what is that? so I said: I heard Aba Ja'far عليه السلام saying that Ali عليه السلام was a Muhadath (inspired), so they said: you have not done anything until you ask Him who inspired him, so I returned to Him and said: I narrated to my companions what you had narrated to me, so they sayed: you have not done anything until you ask Him - who was inspiring Him? so He said to me: inspired him an angel, so I said: do you say: He is a prophet? he (Humran) said: so he moved his hand like this (i.e. in negation) -(and said) rather like the companion of Sulayman, or the companion of Musa, or like Dhul Qarnayn, has it not reached you that he (i.e. the prophet) said: and among you is his like. (Hasan)

محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن محمد بن إسماعيل، عن عمه حمزة بن بزيع، عن علي السائي عن أبي الحسن الاول موسى (عليه السلام) قال: قال: مبلغ علمنا على ثلاثة وجوه: ماض وغابر وحادث فاما الماضي فمفسر، وأما الغابر فمزبور وأما الحادث فقذف في القلوب، ونقر في الاسماع وهو أفضل علمنا ولا نبي بعد نبينا

Muhammad bin Yahya from Ahmad bin Muhammad from Muhammad bin Ismail from his uncle Hamza bin Bazi' from Ali as-Sai' from Abil Hasan the first عليه السلام, he (Ali) said:

He (Abil Hasan) said:

the sources of our knowledge are of three types:

(1) Madh (2) Ghabir and (3) Hadath,

so as for Madh - it is interpreted (i.e. by the Prophet Muhammad - Sunnah), and as for Ghabir - it is written down (i.e. by Imam Ali - Sahifa), and as for Hadath - it is a striking (sinking) in the heart, and a whisper in the ears, and it is the best form of our knowledge, and there is no prophet after our prophet.

علي بن محمد وغيره، عن سهل بن زياد، عن أيوب بن نوح، عن صفوان ابن يحيى، عن ابن مسكان، عن بدر بن الوليد، عن أبي الربيع الشامي، عن أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام) قال: إن الامام إذا شاء أن يعلم علم

أبوعلي الاشعري، عن محمد بن عبدالجبار، عن صفوان، عن ابن مسكان عن بدر بن الوليد، عن أبي الربيع، عن أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام) قال: إن الامام إذا شاء أن يعلم اعلم

Ali b. Muhammad and others apart from him from Sahl b. Ziyad from Ayub b. Nuh from Safwan b. Yahya from Ibn Muskan from Badr b. al-Walid from Abi Rabi' ash-Shami from Abi Abdillah عليه السلام that He said: When the Imam wants to know (something) - He is made to know (it).

Abu Ali al-Ash'ariy from Muhammad b. Abdil Jabbar from Safwan (b. Yahya) from Ibn Muskan from Badr b. al-Walid from Abi Rabi' from Abi Abdillah عليه السلام who said: the Imam, when He wants to know something - It is made known to Him.

محمد، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن ابن محبوب، عن جميل بن صالح، عن زياد بن سوقة، عن الحكم بن عتيبة قال: دخلت على علي بن الحسين (عليهما السلام) يوما فقال: يا حكم هل تدري الآية التي كان علي بن أبي طالب (عليه السلام) يعرف قاتله بها ويعرف بها الامور العظام التي كان يحدث بها الناس؟ قال الحكم: فقلت في نفسي: قد وقعت على علم من علم علي بن الحسين، أعلم بذلك تلك الامور العظام، قال: فقلت: لا والله لا أعلم، قال: ثم قلت: الآية تخبرني بها يا ابن رسول الله؟ قال: هو والله قول الله عز ذكره: " وما أرسلنا من قبلك من رسول ولا نبي (ولا محدث) " وكان علي بن أبي طالب (عليه السلام) محدثا فقال له رجل يقال له: عبدالله بن زيد، كان أخا علي لامه، سبحان الله محدثا؟! كأنه ينكر ذلك، فأقبل علينا أبوجعفر (عليه السلام) فقال: أما والله إن ابن امك بعد قد كان يعرف ذلك، قال: فلما قال ذلك سكت الرجل، فقال: هي التي هلك فيها أبوالخطاب فلم يدر ما تأويل المحدث والنبي.

[Muhammad b. Yaqub] from Muhammad [b. Yahya] from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Ibn Mahbub from Jamil b. Salih from Ziyad b. Suwqah from al-Hakam b. Utayba who said:

I entered upon Ali b. al-Husayn عليهما السلام once,

so He said to me:

O Hakam, do you know the Ayah (verse in the Qur'an) through which Ali b. Abi Talib عليه السلام knew his killer by it (in advance), and (also) knew by it those great matters which He used to inform the people about?

Hakam said: I thought to myself:

I have stumbled (today) upon a knowledge from the knowledge of Ali b. al-Husayn, and I too will know by it those great matters,

he (Hakam) said: so I said to Him: No by Allah, I do not know it (i.e. the Ayah),

he (Hakam) said: then I said to Him: the Ayah - will you inform me about it - son of the messenger of Allah?

He said: It is by Allah - the words of Allah sanctified is his remembrance - 'And we have not sent before you a messenger nor a prophet (nor a Muhadath) ... ' and Ali b. Abi Talib عليه السلام was a Muhadath,

so a man said to him, and his name was Abdallah bin Zayd, and he was Ali's brother through his mother (sharing the

same mother): glorified be Allah - a Muhadath!? as though he detested (and disagreed with that),

so Abu Ja'far (Muhammad b. Ali) عليه السلام came up to us and said:

by Allah, the son of your mother (i.e. Ali b. al-Husyan) after them, has the same knowledge too.

(Hakam) said: so when He (Abu Ja'far) had said that - the man kept silent,

so He said: that is what destroyed Abu al-Khattab, for he did not know the difference between a Muhadath and a Nabi.

أحمد بن محمد ومحمد بن يحيى، عن محمد بن الحسن، عن يعقوب بن يزيد، عن محمد بن إسماعيل قال: سمعت أبا الحسن (عليه السلام) يقول: الائمة علماء صادقون مفهمون محدثون

[Muhammad b. Yaqub] from Ahmad AND Muhammad b. Yahya from Muhammad b. al-Hasan from Yaqub b. Yazid from Muhammad b. Ismail who said: I heard Abal Hasan عليه السلام saying: the Aimmah are Ulama (Knowledge bearers), Sadiqun (Truthful) and Muhadathun. (Sahih)

محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن أبي زاهر، عن علي بن موسى، عن صفوان بن يحيى، عن الحارث بن المغيرة، عن أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام) [قال] قلت: أخبرني عن علم عالمكم؟ قال: وراثة من رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) ومن علي (عليه السلام) قال: قلت: إنا نتحدث أنه يقذف في قلوبكم وينكت في آذانكم قال: أو ذاك.

Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Abi Zahir from Ali b. Musa from Safwan b. Yahya from al-Harith b. al-Mughira from Abi Abdillah عليه السلام, he (al-Harith) said: I said to Him, inform me about the knowledge of the knowledgeable one among you,

He said: an inheritance from the messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله and from Ali عليه السلام, he (al-Harith) said: I said: we narrate that it (also) settles/impinges into your hearts and that it is whispered into your ears, He said: or that (also).

أحمد بن محمد، عن محمد بن الحسن، عن أحمد بن الحسن بن علي، عن عمرو ابن سعيد، عن مصدق بن صدقة، عن عمار الساباطي قال: سألت أبا عبدالله عليه السلام عن الامام؟ يعلم الغيب؟ فقال: لا ولكن إذا أراد أن يعلم الشئ أعلمه الله ذلك

Ahmad b. Muhammad from Muhammad b. al-Hasan from Ahmad b. al-Hasan b. Ali from Amru b. Said from Musadiq b. Sadaqah from Ammaar as-Sabaty who said: I asked Aba Abdillah عليه السلام about the Imam, does he know the Ghayb (unseen)? so He said: No, but if He wants to know about something, Allah informs him about that. (Muwathaq)

Edited May 4, 2013 by Islamic Salvation

[Abdul Qaim]

(salam)

(bismillah)

Multiple Ghulat, Weak, and Unknown individuals in the chains.

(salam)

Case closed, then. If only al-Kulayni had your blog available to him, he could've whittled al-Kafi down to a more manageable size by omitting all those dha'eef akhbaar...

[Ali-F]

Thanks..

Edited May 4, 2013 by Ali-F