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peace seeker

Answering Clynn

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Americans are God-loving? That's why they always make wars? That's why the killed the Native Americans and enslaved the Black Africans? That's why they are approving homosexuality? That's why pre-marital sex is rampent?

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Greetings CLynn,

well, i am not that sure considering how they treated the indigenous and slaves. I can understand that they saw themselves as Christians in a land of pagans, but still it is hard to digest the massacres and injustice done to the original inhabitants. Kind of feels un-christian to me. ( also how black people were treated until last century )

Gretings peace seeker,

Thank you for creating this thread. I also did not wish to derail the other one, but am pleased that you take the time to answer the questions that I have.

I agree, those actions were very un-Christian.

I am referring, however, to the things which were written into the constitution of the country by the early leaders, to establish, at least, a Christian foundation for the guiding of the country.

As I am sure we both know, actions do not always follow words, especially when government leaders are faced with complex situations.

( ... just that nation needs more repenting than any other )

I don't know that I see this as true. Yes ,the United States is most visibly away from the teachings of Christ in the behavior of its individual members... but they are also most visibly demonstrators of the teachings of Christ in their love for all mankind, in their charitable giving, in their being there for any person regardless of their professed beliefs or how far astray they may be... they are the first to give aid to any in the world who need it... to raise funds to aid after catastrophe's have occurred in places where the people have no way to recover on their own...

This was shared with me not too long ago by a friend in the U.S.:

In the last years the U.S. has provided direct cash aid to

Hamas - 351 M,

Libya 1.45 B,

Egypt - 397 M,

Mexico - 622 M,

Russia - 380 M,

Haiti - 1.4 B,

Jordan - 463 M,

Kenya - 816 M,

Sudan - 870 M,

Nigeria - 456 M,

Uganda - 451 M,

Congo - 359 M,

Ethiopia - 981 M,

Pakistan - 2 B,

South Africa - 566 M,

Senegal - 698 M,

Mozambique - 404 M,

Zambia - 331 M,

Kazakhstan - 304 M,

Iraq - 1.08 B,

Tanzania - 554 M,

With literally Billions of Dollars and they still hate us!!!!

Our retired seniors

Living on a 'fixed income'

Receive no aid

Nor do they get any breaks while our government

And religious organizations pour

Hundreds of Billions

Of $$$$$$'s and Tons of Food

To Foreign Countries

We have

Hundreds of adoptable

Children who are shoved aside

To make room for

The adoption of

Foreign orphans.

AMERICA: a country where we have

Homeless without shelter, children going to bed hungry, elderly going without needed medication and mentally ill without treatment -etc.

YET.......................

They have

A 'Benefit'

For the people of Haiti on 12 TV stations,

Ships and planes lining up with food, water, tents clothes, bedding, doctors and medical supplies.

I think it is as God told us it would be... all are far astray from the teachings of God... the whole world is fallen away, in the majority, in the behavior of its individuals, as far as I can tell. Some with hypocrisy hide it. Others, without hypocrisy, do not.

love is not quantifiable and can not be used to hold people accountable in a just society. It is through actions that love is manifest, and rules such as

"don't kill"

"don't steal"

"don't lie"

that should be used as reference in a truly God-fearing society. Every society has to have rules, and judgment by humans can not be passed on how much love one has, but on how much love their actions reflect.

thanks

peace and God bless

Yes, that is precisely how love manifests itself... I agree with you. :)

Yeshua was explaining that if one loves the Creator, and loves his 'brother', i.e., all mankind...

if all will behave as the 'good samaritan' did,

then all of the laws of Moses (the ten commandments) will be fulfilled... none would ever be broken.

I think the actions of the U.S. as listed above do demonstrate the love they have for all the world. Unfortunately due to the fallen nature of man, even in spite of all the good he may do, much evil is also often committed. It is hard to rule an unruly people...

I wish also, peace and blessings to you,

CLynn

Edited by CLynn

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Americans are God-loving? That's why they always make wars? That's why the killed the Native Americans and enslaved the Black Africans? That's why they are approving homosexuality? That's why pre-marital sex is rampent?

That is because they have lost control of their own government and often easily manipulated but historically the majority of country has been fairly conservative.

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Well soon America will become atheist. Give it 20 years max.

Nope don't say that...that is why we (Muslims) are here. And I think a lot of these terrorisms are just to set back the progress Muslims are making. And Islam is American's future :)

Inshallah

Edited by Ali-Reza

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Gretings peace seeker,

Greetings CLynn peace to you and hope you're in good health and spirit God willing

Thank you for creating this thread. I also did not wish to derail the other one, but am pleased that you take the time to answer the questions that I have.

it is my pleasure, and i would like to first ask you for forgiveness, because i wrote your name in the title with a small l. Clynn instead of CLynn. It was by accident and now i can't change it :(

I agree, those actions were very un-Christian.

I am referring, however, to the things which were written into the constitution of the country by the early leaders, to establish, at least, a Christian foundation for the guiding of the country.

As I am sure we both know, actions do not always follow words, especially when government leaders are faced with complex situations.

What i understand happened on the continent of US is pretty much what is happening to Palestine right now. It's called ethnic cleansing and stealing land and homes, while oppressing, killing, stealing, and claiming that the natives are sub-human creatures. At the same time the treatment of stolen African slaves is also with this extreme racism that was accepted officially by the leader of that government. Even though times change, it seems that policies still don't. It seems that this government respects lives of white people killed more than the darker people they are killing in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Yemen with their drones. They are officially aware that there are civilians killed among them, but i see no mourning ceremonies done. I saw no mourning ceremony done for the people of Nagasaki and Hiroshima for instance. I see no mourning ceremonies done for the countless civilians killed by Americans all over the world. This is indication that it's not following principles of Moses or Jesus. Killing and massacring and ethnic cleansing is not a "complicated issue". It's a crime that deserves Hell. It's a symptom of a government that is not God fearing.

I don't know that I see this as true. Yes ,the United States is most visibly away from the teachings of Christ in the behavior of its individual members... but they are also most visibly demonstrators of the teachings of Christ in their love for all mankind, in their charitable giving, in their being there for any person regardless of their professed beliefs or how far astray they may be... they are the first to give aid to any in the world who need it... to raise funds to aid after catastrophe's have occurred in places where the people have no way to recover on their own...

This was shared with me not too long ago by a friend in the U.S.:

In the last years the U.S. has provided direct cash aid to

Hamas - 351 M,

Libya 1.45 B,

Egypt - 397 M,

Mexico - 622 M,

Russia - 380 M,

Haiti - 1.4 B,

Jordan - 463 M,

Kenya - 816 M,

Sudan - 870 M,

Nigeria - 456 M,

Uganda - 451 M,

Congo - 359 M,

Ethiopia - 981 M,

Pakistan - 2 B,

South Africa - 566 M,

Senegal - 698 M,

Mozambique - 404 M,

Zambia - 331 M,

Kazakhstan - 304 M,

Iraq - 1.08 B,

Tanzania - 554 M,

With literally Billions of Dollars and they still hate us!!!!

Our retired seniors

Living on a 'fixed income'

Receive no aid

Nor do they get any breaks while our government

And religious organizations pour

Hundreds of Billions

Of $$$$$$'s and Tons of Food

To Foreign Countries

We have

Hundreds of adoptable

Children who are shoved aside

To make room for

The adoption of

Foreign orphans.

AMERICA: a country where we have

Homeless without shelter, children going to bed hungry, elderly going without needed medication and mentally ill without treatment -etc.

YET.......................

They have

A 'Benefit'

For the people of Haiti on 12 TV stations,

Ships and planes lining up with food, water, tents clothes, bedding, doctors and medical supplies.

Dear CLynn,

There are surely good people in US and good Christians Muslims and Jews who are part of those US organizations such as USAID and the American Army. However, the intention behind the scene, the main leaders pulling the strings, seem to use their targeted "aid" to actually control and conquer lands economically. Surely people who don't mind killing people all over the world behind false pretense, will have no problem lying and deceiving people. Maybe you can search about key words such as "economic hit-man" "truth about federal reserve" "truth about economic system" and so on. Also, America puts unjust sanctions against people economically that hurt a lot of people. Whoever is controlling your country's finance, politics, media etc needs to change or be changed, because their debt-based, interest-based money is being used only to further their non-christian agendas. I hope they repent, and hope that i also repent and that we all repent and that this world becomes a happy place God willing.

I think it is as God told us it would be... all are far astray from the teachings of God... the whole world is fallen away, in the majority, in the behavior of its individuals, as far as I can tell. Some with hypocrisy hide it. Others, without hypocrisy, do not.

that is very true. Nations rise and nations fall, and hopefully all the hypocrites and people who are astray fall, and all the true good people rise. Each nation has its issues and own corruption to deal with, and let's pray that the leaders in charge of all nations become good God-fearing people in word and most of all in action.

Yes, that is precisely how love manifests itself... I agree with you. :)

Yeshua was explaining that if one loves the Creator, and loves his 'brother', i.e., all mankind...

if all will behave as the 'good samaritan' did,

then all of the laws of Moses (the ten commandments) will be fulfilled... none would ever be broken.

absolutely let's hope that all behave like Jesus Christ wanted us to, and Moses and all prophets of the same God :) God bless you and make you a great follower and among the greatest disciples and lovers of Jesus Christ and his True Message God willing.

I think the actions of the U.S. as listed above do demonstrate the love they have for all the world. Unfortunately due to the fallen nature of man, even in spite of all the good he may do, much evil is also often committed. It is hard to rule an unruly people...

Well dear CLynn I do hope that the good done by those millions of dollars, no matter how little, may eventually stand out while the money that is actually spent for bribes, weapons and personal interests covertly, are forgotten in the sand of time. We are all guilty of sins, so as much as we have hope that our sins get purified and forgiven, let's hope that other people's sins likewise get purified. Also, let's hope that the world gets spiritually and physically purified via clean sources of energy and a God-fearing stance with the environment at large. A respect for all of God-fearing God's creations, and avoiding the killing of animals, plants, and all living creatures unnecessarily. And above all, the killing of humans must stop. As well as the countless other crimes committed in all kinds of ways. Like Christ said: treat others like we want to be treated.

I wish also, peace and blessings to you,

CLynn

thank you God bless you and always make you more and more happy and at peace and more blessed by God and His Eternal Light, and that you be chosen to be among the sincere God-fearing followers of Christ in this life and the next.

thanks to you

your peace seeker :)

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Greetings peace seeker,

First, no worries about the spelling of my user name. I understand that mistakes happen. I am positive that I make many, though I try hard not to. :) I keep an online journal in which it says in my profile:

About Me: I make lots of mistakes. I am easily confused by life. I care alot about people. Come share your thoughts about life's journey with me.

Regarding your comparison of what was done to the native americans, with Palestine...

I'm afraid that I do not agree with what you feel is happening in Palestine. I do not agree with your view that the agenda is ethnic cleansing. I believe if the Palestinians would seek peace, peace could be had.

Whoever is controlling your country's finance, politics, media etc needs to change or be changed, because their debt-based, interest-based money is being used only to further their non-christian agendas. I hope they repent, and hope that i also repent and that we all repent and that this world becomes a happy place God willing.

I agree the U.S. is off course from a Godly base, as is the rulership of all the world. I don't know if we as humans, with Godly guidance, can conquer the problem or not. My scriptures tell me that only the Messiah will be able to set things right.

Regarding aid given to other countries...

I hope and pray not to be wrong, and that the intent is truly good, but I am well aware of how little I know, being as I am not part of top government and not privy to all, and not one attempting to deal with all these world issues. My belief(and prayer) is that the U.S. tries to help, while at the same time it obviously has to look after its own interests. I would feel very insecure in a country that did not look after the interests of its people. No government can control what happens once aid reaches the hands of people in those other nations it is trying to help. My belief is that they do their best to give aid where it best serves all people. I hope never to find that I have believed terribly wrongly.

let's hope that the world gets spiritually and physically purified via clean sources of energy and a God-fearing stance with the environment at large. A respect for all of God-fearing God's creations, and avoiding the killing of animals, plants, and all living creatures unnecessarily. And above all, the killing of humans must stop. As well as the countless other crimes committed in all kinds of ways. Like Christ said: treat others like we want to be treated.

To use a Christian expression, "Amen, to that!" :)

Peace and blessings to you,

CLynn

Edited by CLynn

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Greetings peace seeker,

First, no worries about the spelling of my user name. I understand that mistakes happen. I am positive that I make many, though I try hard not to. :) I keep an online journal in which it says in my profile:

About Me: I make lots of mistakes. I am easily confused by life. I care alot about people. Come share your thoughts about life's journey with me.

may the Mighty Lord forgive us all

Regarding your comparison of what was done to the native americans, with Palestine...

I'm afraid that I do not agree with what you feel is happening in Palestine. I do not agree with your view that the agenda is ethnic cleansing. I believe if the Palestinians would seek peace, peace could be had.

the agenda is colonization and taking native people's lands by force. At the same time the native people who live as official citizens are seen as gentile second class citizens. It is difficult to seek peace with a violent occupier and people who steal your land because supposedly the Germans killed them.

I agree the U.S. is off course from a Godly base, as is the rulership of all the world. I don't know if we as humans, with Godly guidance, can conquer the problem or not. My scriptures tell me that only the Messiah will be able to set things right.

Regarding aid given to other countries...

I hope and pray not to be wrong, and that the intent is truly good, but I am well aware of how little I know, being as I am not part of top government and not privy to all, and not one attempting to deal with all these world issues. My belief(and prayer) is that the U.S. tries to help, while at the same time it obviously has to look after its own interests. I would feel very insecure in a country that did not look after the interests of its people. No government can control what happens once aid reaches the hands of people in those other nations it is trying to help. My belief is that they do their best to give aid where it best serves all people. I hope never to find that I have believed terribly wrongly.

may God increase our understanding of things and above all may God love us more and make us love Him more every second ever heartbeat more God willing.

To use a Christian expression, "Amen, to that!" :)

Amen :)

Peace and blessings to you,

CLynn

Peace Blessings Knowledge Wisdom Justice of God to you

Peace Seeker

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Greetings again, peace seeker,

Regarding your first statements I say this;

It was Great Britain that created the Israel state, while it was still in their dominion to do so... so I don't consider it accurate to say that those that are there now are 'violent occupiers' and usurpers... except in the places where it applies, as in the West Bank... but how long are a people supposed to wait for peace and leave land unused while it is needed? If palestine would have had a spirit of cooperating with the rest of the world at the beginning to extend the necessary help, to a people in need of help, instead of creating war in the expectation of winning and subsequently losing, then this would not be happening now. (Note: I understand them fighting for their land. They fought. They lost. It happens. It would be much better for all if they would have moved on and moved forward as so many other nations have had to do.) If at any time in the intervening period they would have been willing to accept their defeat after going on the offensive, and reach a mutual solution, then this would not be happening now. .. the West Bank would be theirs and they would have the rights to prevent infringement.

At any rate those that are there now, are not there at their own doing, but at the behest, and empathetic attitude, of a conjunction of nations generally, and Great Britain specifically. Where was that same empathy of the surrounding nations to accommodate either the displaced Jews then, or the displaced arabs now? People need a place to live... nations need to be willing to make accommodations when needed. The majority nations who were dealing with the aftermath of the war came up with what seemed the best solution. Were the islamic nations willing to offer any solution? Look how many are displaced in Africa and being taken in by their neighboring lands. The Islamic world could have set the same example, even a superior example, if they so chose... an example of caring for people, in the tradition of Muhammad, as told by his followers.

As far as what you say;

"the native people who live as official citizens are seen as gentile second class citizens. "

I have wondered about that and have conflicting reports. If it is true, it is no different than the law that islamic states apply to those not muslim living within their lands. If it is wrong in Israel, then it must also be considered wrong in any islamic state. (Note: I consider it to be wrong.) I often think the problem between Israel and palestine is that they are simply too much alike... like bulls with locked horns.

I hope you do not take my replies as argumentative or hostile towards you in any way, as they are not. I like you very much. I am used to being plain spoken though, and believe in being able to discuss all sides of things. I appreciate and respect your views as I hope you can also with mine. :)

Peace and blessings to you,

CLynn

Edited by CLynn

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Nope don't say that...that is why we (Muslims) are here. And I think a lot of these terrorisms are just to set back the progress Muslims are making. And Islam is American's future :)

Inshallah

I'm curious...

Do you really think it would be good for the U.S. to become an islamic nation?

Why do you live in the U.S. and not an islamic nation? Have you really considered it?

If you are in the U.S. because your parents moved there... why did they move there?

If you are there by choice, why did you move there?

Just curious.

Thanks.

Salaam.

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Greetings again, peace seeker,

Regarding your first statements I say this;

It was Great Britain that created the Israel state, while it was still in their dominion to do so... so I don't consider it accurate to say that those that are there now are 'violent occupiers' and usurpers... except in the places where it applies, as in the West Bank... but how long are a people supposed to wait for peace and leave land unused while it is needed? If palestine would have had a spirit of cooperating with the rest of the world at the beginning to extend the necessary help, to a people in need of help, instead of creating war in the expectation of winning and subsequently losing, then this would not be happening now. (Note: I understand them fighting for their land. They fought. They lost. It happens. It would be much better for all if they would have moved on and moved forward as so many other nations have had to do.) If at any time in the intervening period they would have been willing to accept their defeat after going on the offensive, and reach a mutual solution, then this would not be happening now. .. the West Bank would be theirs and they would have the rights to prevent infringement.

At any rate those that are there now, are not there at their own doing, but at the behest, and empathetic attitude, of a conjunction of nations generally, and Great Britain specifically. Where was that same empathy of the surrounding nations to accommodate either the displaced Jews then, or the displaced arabs now? People need a place to live... nations need to be willing to make accommodations when needed. The majority nations who were dealing with the aftermath of the war came up with what seemed the best solution. Were the islamic nations willing to offer any solution? Look how many are displaced in Africa and being taken in by their neighboring lands. The Islamic world could have set the same example, even a superior example, if they so chose... an example of caring for people, in the tradition of Muhammad, as told by his followers.

As far as what you say;

"the native people who live as official citizens are seen as gentile second class citizens. "

I have wondered about that and have conflicting reports. If it is true, it is no different than the law that islamic states apply to those not muslim living within their lands. If it is wrong in Israel, then it must also be considered wrong in any islamic state. (Note: I consider it to be wrong.) I often think the problem between Israel and palestine is that they are simply too much alike... like bulls with locked horns.

I hope you do not take my replies as argumentative or hostile towards you in any way, as they are not. I like you very much. I am used to being plain spoken though, and believe in being able to discuss all sides of things. I appreciate and respect your views as I hope you can also with mine. :)

Peace and blessings to you,

CLynn

Greetings CLynn,

It might be that we reached a topic that we will never find an agreement about until the next life perhaps. But for the sake of hope that we may agree on the truth, i'll trie to express what i see as plain and obvious.

Concerning the apartheid and unjust double-standards between so-called jews and non-jews: it can not be compared to non-muslims in muslim countries. In fact, jews were living happily in arab world before the balfour declaration. Much like the jews were living happily in egypt until a peculiar (non-islamic) socialist movement that swept the whole world also reached egypt. Today the jews are living quite happily in tunisia and iran, and are treated as normal human beings with different identity. I would not know where to start to show that the self-proclaimed jews mistreat their 'gentile' populations, especially the palestinian muslims in and outside of their territory.

you seem to think it's ok to occupy people's lands and claim that their land was "unused". In fact it was not unused, it just belonged to different people. And just because somebody is militarily superior, does not mean they are right. So the palestinians are right in their struggle and resistance, just like it is right for the native americans to have resisted. It makes me sad to see you think it's ok and defend people going to other people's lands and taking their land by force. And that is exactly what happened in America, and that is what is happening in Palestine. The palestinians deserve to have their homeland, and stealing, killing and lying is wrong by any standard. That does not make them jews, but followers of satan. CLynn, if you believe it's ok for those zionists to go to a land and take it by force, and displacing the population, then that is very sad and shows me that you don't actually understand the message of Christ.

shrinking-map-of-palestine.png

And also to add further: if you think it's ok what the british did in their hundreds of years of stealing resources and occupying land, and colonizing others, then there is no point continuing discussion with you. Might is not necessarily right, and what the British agreed to do with their Palestine mandate is a crime. The zionist state, just like the american states, are built on blood, greed, theft and non-Christian non-Islamic principles. Also non-Jewish principles, which many Jews are aware of, like the "Jews against Zionism". May the native palestinians inherit their land again, as well as the native americans, and native people of all lands, in the name of the Just the True the One God.

Peace and God bless

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Greetings and peace to you peace seeker,

You said;

"you seem to think it's ok to occupy people's lands and claim that their land was "unused".

I hope and pray that you did not miss this in my earlier post:

"Note: I understand them fighting for their land. They fought. They lost. It happens. It would be much better for all if they would have moved on and moved forward as so many other nations have had to do."

What I refer to now is the land in the west bank which the palestinians have not returned to, due to the inability of governments to reach an agreement. Land that has been going unused for how long? It is always the people themselves who lose, when governments can't cooperate, isn't it?

I agree, that we will probably disagree. I understand and agree with all your points. I also understand the need of the government of israel to hold the west bank in order to protect and preserve its people due to the threats being made at them from all around them. Can you see both sides? Wouldn't you want to know that your government was protecting you? When constant threats are made to annihilate you, what else can you do? If such threats would cease, then the need to hold defenses might also cease. Sadly there are people who think that Israel does not have the right to exist... I don't know if this simply means the land for its people, or its people as well. Sadly I believe it means the hatred for, and prejudice against, the people themselves... and there are those who hold power who seek the means to destroy them... i.e., finish the job for the Nazi's. Yes, I do believe there is this kind of hatred, born out of unacceptance, towards the Jews. So when we speak of the desire for genocide, I see it is the Jews, not the palestinians, that are threatened with this particular evil. I have never heard any talk of annihilating the palestinians, only the desire to see aggressions cease.

Is there more to it? Do the people in power use these aggressions towards them to serve other purposes? Possibly. I do not close my mind to all possibilities, but I do know what I see, and what I see is not aggression from the Israel state, but defensive action. Actually I would have to say that I see both, but I believe it is born out of the need, the constant feeling for the need, for defense. Never has there been a time in this world that the descendants of Israel have not been persecuted. How do you think you would act if all you had ever known was hatred and fear because of people's attitudes towards your people? How do the muslims feel now... now that that particular eye has been turned towards themselves?

Do the Jews bring it upon themselves because of their attitude, this belief that they are special? Possibly. Do the muslims also bring this now upon themselves for the same reason? Here is a difference though... in the Jewish belief that they are 'chosen' they do not believe that they are given special status by God, but rather that they are given special burdens (the 613 mizvot) by God, that others do not have to bear. They do not expect others to carry their same burdens... they do not impose it on anyone... they accept it as theirs alone. So I think the attitude that people have towards the Jews comes out of misunderstanding , lack of knowledge, as to what it actually means when it is said that they are chosen.

Whereas, by my understanding, with muslims, they truly believe that God accepts only muslims.

I do not disagree that there are crimes being committed against the palestinians within their own territory... the tension between these two people's has grown to that point in that land. This is the problem, as I see it, with both jews and muslims.. they each think they must keep separate communities from one another(probably the jews moreso than the muslims). They each think that they are special in some way, in the eyes of God. Christians do not share in this attitude... they do not believe they are any more special than anyone else... we all have equal chance of coming to God... Christians simply know that those whom accept Yeshua, are those whom will be accepted by the Father on judgement day.... this is why they share the good news of Christ with all people. We feel such joy at knowing God that we want all to know Him, but it is up to them to choose.

if you think it's ok what the british did in their hundreds of years of stealing resources and occupying land, and colonizing others, then there is no point continuing discussion with you.

On this I completely agree with you. I take great issue with how the British inflicted themselves across the whole globe, however, it is part of history, and it did change the course of things in nations. It opened channels between people. It is, what it is. Sadly, we have never been a world without crime, from the very beginning when Cain slew Abel.

an afterthought;

You said;

"jews were living happily in arab world before the balfour declaration."

How do you know they were happy? Were they happy, or accepting?

peace to you brother peace seeker,

CLynn

one other note:

My earlier research had shown that the land that was to be israel in the original proposition, was less than 1/3 of the total land area, and the other 2/3's were to remain for the arabs. Now in my current research it seems to say otherwise... so that rather changes my view on things.

I am curious... would the jews have been allowed to return and reside in the territory if an israeli state had not been created?

Can we right the wrongs of the past?

Only by moving forward, and in a better way.

We do not right any wrongs by holding on to old grievances, but by setting a better example for future generations. It is the only thing we can change.

I believe, and think we can agree, that it comes down to leadership, and how leaders lead.

I would like to share my earlier research and get your opinion, but it would be lengthy to post. Are you game for it?

Salaam.

Edited by CLynn

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The United States was built on a foundation of God fearing believers,

This caught my eye. I don't know what is going in this thread but as about this statement, the modern-day American Christians would have you believe that the US was founded by "God-fearing believers", which is historically inaccurate to a large measure.

The founding fathers of the US were mostly secular deists, at best. The US was founded on ideals of liberty and the separation of church and state. There was nothing "God-fearing"-like in the makings of the US.

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"supposedly the Germans killed them."

? - How did I miss that the first time?

This caught my eye. I don't know what is going in this thread but as about this statement, the modern-day American Christians would have you believe that the US was founded by "God-fearing believers", which is historically inaccurate to a large measure.

The founding fathers of the US were mostly secular deists, at best. The US was founded on ideals of liberty and the separation of church and state. There was nothing "God-fearing"-like in the makings of the US.

Greetings Marbles,

Peace to you and welcome to the discussion. :)

If you know the scriptures, and you read what the founding fathers spoke and wrote, and what was put in the constitution, you will not be able to deny the Christian influence and foundation of those ideals of liberty, which included separating church and state.

Salaam.

Edited by CLynn

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I want only CLynn to answer this question, because i don't want to derail the discussion. Short yes or no answer please, and be honest, by the god you believe in.

Are you ChristianLady?

Remember, be honest......

No, I promise you that I am not. Was it you who asked once before? :)

Christianlady and I have very different styles of speaking.

I am sure we have similar hearts though. :)

Salaam to you repenter.

p.s. - my God forbids me from being deceitful in any matter or manner.

p.s.s - Is it because of my use of smilies again? I think that's what the last person who asked, said that made them ask.

Edited by CLynn

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Greetings to you and peace to you CLynn,

the occupiers and occupied can not be held as equals. The occupiers are aggressors and criminals, while the occupied have the right to defend their lands, even according to geneva convention.

it is very simple, and does not even need much analysis. Again:

Palestinians are being occupied.

occupied .. by force.

I am glad that you like me CLynn, and honestly i like you very much as well. I have jewish acquaintances who also like you believe that it's their right to occupy people, and steal their lands. Even though i love those jews very much, i feel very sorry for them. I feel sorry because they are too weak and insecure to either see or say the truth. The obvious truth. So the same with you CLynn. May God open your eyes to the obvious truth and / or give you the power and privilege of openly advocating the humanistic justice of God, as taught by Jesus Christ, Moses et all.

I have never heard any talk of annihilating the palestinians, only the desire to see aggressions cease.

the palestinians have already been annihilated from their home, and they have not harmed anybody. Self defense is a human right.

Never has there been a time in this world that the descendants of Israel have not been persecuted. How do you think you would act if all you had ever known was hatred and fear because of people's attitudes towards your people? How do the muslims feel now... now that that particular eye has been turned towards themselves?

ironically, as i told you, the muslims never persecuted the Jews. And anyway, why should the Palestinians pay the price for Hitler who has nothing to do with Palestinians/ Islam / Christianity?

Also, most of the "Jews" in the occupied Palestine are not descendants of Israel, and not children of Sem, like the children of Ismail and Isaac. Rather they are children of Japeth, and come from Asia Khazar empire that converted to Judaism. That's why somebody like Netanyahu does not look like come from this part of the world. You will find them looking Nordic, while the Palestinians are semitic.

Christians do not share in this attitude

well the good christians don't feel that way, but the bad ones like the crusaders from England felt much like the fake jews in occupied palestine. And Christians who agree with action of occupation, oppression and stealing homes and lands, are actually just as bad as the actual people doing it. Moral support is in line with physical support. And we know there are plenty of fake christians who think it's ok that those people occupy others by force.

Sadly, we have never been a world without crime, from the very beginning when Cain slew Abel.

yes, and i can understand that a lot of zionists who brainwash themselves with the devilish idea that it's ok to kill people and steal their lands, are afraid of backing down now. They feel instinctively that if they give up to the Palestinians now, that they will be slaughtered. Of course any real Muslim / Jewish / Christian Palestinian who would take over, would be compassionate, forgiving, understanding etc., and my dream and hope is that they make their own revolution, where they are not afraid of apologizing and sacrificing for the sake of justice and mending mistakes. There is no point in lying and continue the stealing and lying, as we all know: "two wrongs don't make a right"

Of course, if they continue, then God WILL punish them, as per the OT NT and Quran. This is God's way of dealing with wrongdoers. They get punished. That's not my words, but God's words and ways. So it's their chance to get out of this situation now peacefully or they will have to face catastrophe. And anyway they and us and everybody will die and face the Lord. So we might as well try our best to leave this planet without evil deeds upon our hands. And understand that humans are humans, and that it's not the zionists who are the only humans, and we are all cattle. We are all humans, and killing humans is wrong. One example here: let's mourn!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

one of countless massacres against to local civilians.

You said;

"jews were living happily in arab world before the balfour declaration."

How do you know they were happy? Were they happy, or accepting?

I have Egyptian relatives who worked closely with Egyptian Jews and lived with them, and people hardly knew in school or work who was Christian, Muslim or Jewish. They were just Egyptians, and the Jews, much like in pre-Nazi Germany, pretty much owned a lot of the country and controlled a lot of the financial institutions. They were very happy and loved, and were 100% part of society. Until a foreign socialist flood arrived that conveniently for the zionist project, forced them to leave and move to Israel.

Jews were never persecuted by muslims in history and the "Jews against Zionism" are well aware of that. And specifically the Palestinians never persecuted Jews. Jews Christians and Muslims were living in peace! And compared to the zionist situation, it was a perfect peace.

I am curious... would the jews have been allowed to return and reside in the territory if an israeli state had not been created?

as i already told you: the jews were living there, and the holy land was a holy place where people from all monotheistic religions were worshipping together and keeping the sanctity and chastity of the land. It is a bit late to ask this question now, but the whole zionist project which is now five minutes to 12, has been a bloody satanic venture. We seek refuge in God from the rejected Satan.

Can we right the wrongs of the past?

Only by moving forward, and in a better way.

We do not right any wrongs by holding on to old grievances, but by setting a better example for future generations. It is the only thing we can change.

two wrongs don't make it right. In other words, just because we might be doing something wrong, continuing it won't make it better. To answer your question to the point: Yes! of course we can right the wrong of the past. You know, in Christianity and Islam we are taught that God accepts repentance for anything and that His capacity to forgive is virtually infinite. I believe that if the new generation of zionists understand this, they would rethink their actions and stances in this short lives. And in Islam it is also taught that once we repent our sins turn into blessings. So every mistake we did can actually be turned into a good action retrospectively if we repent genuinely, while keeping it up till our moment of death/ martyrdom. We should never underestimate the ability of God acceptance repentance, and protecting us after doing so. I predict that if the zionists revolutionize themselves and face the right direction as per Moses, then all the Muslims and Palestinians would forgive them and would be willing to start a realistic new page with them. Of course the right leadership would be vital for this.

I believe, and think we can agree, that it comes down to leadership, and how leaders lead.

God is Great! you read my mind

I would like to share my earlier research and get your opinion, but it would be lengthy to post. Are you game for it?

well i can give it a try. go for it. can skim through it and give you my random opinions if you want.

"supposedly the Germans killed them."

? - How did I miss that the first time?

in the world wars people from all nations got killed, and hitler and germans have nothing to do with palestinians. I believe the germans apologized a lot to the jews, and likewise the jews should now apologize to the palestinians, and all those who were hurt by their bloody policies. (for their own sake, because i hope for their own sake that they go to heaven. i love the jews i know, and am very hurt that they don't stand up to injustice from within their own people. )

God bless you and guide you

peace to you

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Greetings peace seeker,

Very briefly... I think I will respond to your long post in parts... :)

You say;

" the occupiers and occupied can not be held as equals. The occupiers are aggressors and criminals, while the occupied have the right to defend their lands, even according to geneva convention."

Was the same true then when islam spread in its early days? in the days when the Ottoman empire was formed?

The occupiers then too, were aggressors and criminals...

and the occupied also had a right to defend their land...

there comes a time when one side yields,

this is the way forward...

the only way forward.

Salaam.

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^^ ok quick response:

I'm no fan of the people who conquered jerusalem, and as a shia i see them as hypocritical enemies of Islam and the holy household of prophet mohamed. However, according to Wikipedia:

Following the Muslim conquest of Jerusalem, Jews were once again allowed to live and practice their religion with more freedom in Jerusalem, 8 years after their massacre by the Byzantines and nearly 500 years after their expulsion from Judea by the Roman Empire.[2]

and:

The revolt ended with the departure of the Persians and an eventual massacre of the Jews in 629 by the Byzantines ending 15 years of Jewish autonomy.

so it seems that when the muslims conquered the place, they actually made life better for the Jews, while now we have the opposite happening.

and:

For the first time, after almost 500 years of oppressive Roman rule, Jews were once again allowed to live and worship inside Jerusalem.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(637)

so we can not compare the muslims managing the place to what has happened in the past 60 years

there are even Jews who were so happy with the first muslim leaders, that they believed they were jews, and the the dome of the rock is actually a jewish temple:

http://www.templemountfaithful.org/Newsletters/2001/5761-11.htm

so let's be fair please, for our own sakes, so we may be forgiven by the True Loving God

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"Also, most of the "Jews" in the occupied Palestine are not descendants of Israel, and not children of Sem, like the children of Ismail and Isaac. Rather they are children of Japeth, and come from Asia Khazar empire that converted to Judaism. That's why somebody like Netanyahu does not look like come from this part of the world. You will find them looking Nordic, while the Palestinians are semitic."

I'm sorry, does that make them less Jewish? That is like saying that african, or asian muslims, are not true muslims because islam originated with the arabs.

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no it does not make them less jewish at all. just like being from among the children of israel is no guarantee of salvation, an eskimo can be a good jew. i just mentioned that because you said "children of Israel"

also from among the children of my prophet Mohamed there are good and bad people, while people unrelated to him could be competing with the best of his descendants. God is not racist.

but i want to add that in reality we are all related as we all come from God, are created from one soul, and are all descendants of Adam and Noah pbut

and we will all return to our Lord, and may He protect us on this day and keep us among His loved ones.

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^^ ok quick response:

I'm no fan of the people who conquered jerusalem, and as a shia i see them as hypocritical enemies of Islam and the holy household of prophet mohamed.

Greetings peace seeker,

I am glad that we agree on this.

Regarding the rest of what you wrote...

It doesn't make the muslim conquests any less reprehensible than the Roman, Byzantine, or any other conquest. Jews were not conquesting when they were relocated to palestine after the war. It was not their choice, their decision, but the decision of a conglomerate of nations to resettle a people who needed resettling... in the land of palestine from whence their people originated. The Jewish people, who have been relocated to the land of their ancestral heritage did not conquer anybody, and they are only now defending the place to which they have been relocated and to not once again be cast out upon the world. Things might be different if the jewish nation felt safe to allow things to be different.

You are correct there is no comparison.

I do not question whether the Jewish people in history accepted muslim rule. I do not believe it was all the bed of roses you believe it to have been. When a people are conquered they usually have to accept new rulership, like it or not... at least if they turn their mind to doing so, intent on the purpose of living rather than fighting. I do not see in recent history(in other words, since Biblical times) when the jewish people have ever turned their energies towards fighting rather than towards acceptance and survival... towards building, rather than tearing down. Only now do they fight, defensively, to be allowed to remain as they are.

Has the jewish nation at any point been given the opportunity to show that they can rule with impunity or are they dogged at every turn?

Being fair is exactly what I am asking for as well. Two sides of a coin, and you can not look just at one side. Yes, let us be fair... to the issue on both sides.

Salaam brother peace seeker.

no it does not make them less jewish at all. just like being from among the children of israel is no guarantee of salvation, an eskimo can be a good jew. i just mentioned that because you said "children of Israel"

also from among the children of my prophet Mohamed there are good and bad people, while people unrelated to him could be competing with the best of his descendants. God is not racist.

but i want to add that in reality we are all related as we all come from God, are created from one soul, and are all descendants of Adam and Noah pbut

and we will all return to our Lord, and may He protect us on this day and keep us among His loved ones.

Very happy. We agree here. :)

Greetings peace seeker,

Continuing with your original post, which I am still not halfway through. :blush:

You are asking;

" ironically, as i told you, the muslims never persecuted the Jews. And anyway, why should the Palestinians pay the price for Hitler who has nothing to do with Palestinians/ Islam / Christianity?"

Why did the western nations take in the Jewish people as temporary refugees during the war? Did they feel they were 'paying a price'... or were they doing the humanitarian thing? Did the arab nations step forward to do the humanitarian thing, as according to what everyone believes about Muhammad, he would have expected them to do... to do the humanitarian thing? Did any of them join in seeking a solution for a vastly displaced people? Where were their Godly teachings?

(back to my reading...)

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I want only CLynn to answer this question, because i don't want to derail the discussion. Short yes or no answer please, and be honest, by the god you believe in.

Are you ChristianLady?

Remember, be honest......

I just realized that I am flattered to be thought that I might be Christianlady. It means that I am not coming across as abrasive as I sometimes fear that I may be perceived as. :)

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Greetings peace seeker,

Another partial answer to what you wrote... It seems we both have alot to say. :)

I agree the Christian history is tainted from the time when church and power were tied together... it is this that led to things like crusades... conquering under the false banner of God.

This however is not what the state of Israel is doing. No one set out to conquer anyone. This state of affairs resulted only because the palestinians chose war rather than choosing to be part of a cooperative effort, being made by the rest of the world, in settling a displaced people. Had it not been for this choice of theirs we would not be where we are today in the state of things. It is the obstinate refusal to accept that the jews have an equal right to have a nation state of their own that is the barrier to peace.

It is necessary to separate actions of actual stealing from consequences brought about by war, and losing in war.

Do me a favor and read at this link?: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFmandate.html

I think the state of Israel has tried time and again to be fair in reaching an post war settlement, but nothing they offer is acceptable... nothing but the denial of their right to exist as a nation is acceptable... This is prejudice, oppression, and un-Godly. How would it be if the world came together to say that no islamic state had a right to exist? Would that be right?

Yes, I am familiar with the yassin massacre... many such atrocities and horrors have been committed by many people against one another throughout history. That is what we must overcome, and to overcome it we must first overcome the sins of man... for that we need Yeshua.

Yes, it is terribly sad what has happened in Egypt, and what has happened to Afghanistan through so many years of war beginning with the Russians, and what is happening to Syria now. It all brings me to tears.

I have watched programs on the bridge building efforts and programs to bring together and erase the prejudices that the plaestinians and the jews have come to have towards one another. It is so heartening, and heart warming, to see people come together. I too, hope that these efforts will yield results that will change future generations, and improve relations, and lead to peaceful co-existence between people and nations. From the time I first started studying islam it has made me sad, because from the beginning I have been able to see how much the culture of the muslims is like the culture of their brothers, the hebrews, and it is to me a shame to see one brother, so like another, yet against the other.

I love your good heart peace seeker. I see that you truly see the Truth of the Lord in terms of us all being His children, and that there are those astray among all of us... most especially our leaders.

Edited by CLynn

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Greetings peace seeker,

Greetings CLynn hope you are having a good day,

It doesn't make the muslim conquests any less reprehensible than the Roman, Byzantine, or any other conquest.

actually i just showed you that the conquest by muslims made it better for Jews, and allowed them to worship for the first time since 500 years. While the conquest of the jews is causing the opposite. It is not 60 years of discrimination and treating the people like sub-humans and massacring them and stealing their homes. It was mainly a change in government.

Jews were not conquesting when they were relocated to palestine after the war.

they were and still are today conquering. No human will willingly give their homes and villages and livelihood away.

It was not their choice, their decision, but the decision of a conglomerate of nations to resettle a people who needed resettling

well it was their choice to accept this and play along. Just like it is their choice this very moment to continue their injustice and occupation. I don't know why CLynn, you keep on defending obvious injustice that is still happening right now this very moment. It is a mystery to me. The only justification that can be used is that one is human while the others are some kind of alien pest. It's for their own good to respect other human lives, regardless of what was history of other people that have passed away.

... in the land of palestine from whence their people originated.

It is not true that they originated from there to start with, and even if they did, it does not justify the injustice and killing and disgusting stealing lies and corruption they are spreading.

The Jewish people, who have been relocated to the land of their ancestral heritage did not conquer anybody, and they are only now defending the place to which they have been relocated and to not once again be cast out upon the world. Things might be different if the jewish nation felt safe to allow things to be different.

of course they did conquer in the past 60 years. nobody gives their land willingly. And they are still conquering now by removing and bull-dosing native peoples lands and making illegal expansion and settlements. I believe i'm reaching my limit with your blind sympathy for their crimes and what injustice of the poor Palestinians. There is no excuse, and your accepting and ignoring their suffering and having their lands and lives taken away. How can we expect criminals to be safe? they will never be safe unless they turn around and repent, and there is nowhere they can run from Justice of God.

You are correct there is no comparison.

I do not question whether the Jewish people in history accepted muslim rule. I do not believe it was all the bed of roses you believe it to have been. When a people are conquered they usually have to accept new rulership, like it or not... at least if they turn their mind to doing so, intent on the purpose of living rather than fighting. I do not see in recent history(in other words, since Biblical times) when the jewish people have ever turned their energies towards fighting rather than towards acceptance and survival... towards building, rather than tearing down. Only now do they fight, defensively, to be allowed to remain as they are.

Has the jewish nation at any point been given the opportunity to show that they can rule with impunity or are they dogged at every turn?

The Jews were liberated by muslims, and their racist and satanic ways of ruling have been unacceptable. There are countless massacres and acting like it's their right to have a homeland built on stolen land already takes away the blessing from God. When the muslims conquered they did not remove entire villages, and their lands, and kick them out from the country. The muslims made the lives better for Jews after Christians massacred them. Fact is that they can go to Hell quite literally for what they have done, just like what Americans have done. And i am happy that my people and my society and my family are not part of this crime against humanity, and supporting this racist lie of a murderous theft and curse against their own souls. I am glad that my people support any oppressed human being anywhere.

Being fair is exactly what I am asking for as well. Two sides of a coin, and you can not look just at one side. Yes, let us be fair... to the issue on both sides.

Dear CLynn, i think this will be one of / or the last post with you concerning this, because we are talking in circles. You keep on talking about things that you perceive as crimes of the past in order to justify crimes of today. And then i tell you that because of the muslims the Jews were allowed to be liberated, so it was a bed of roses for them. And even if the muslims were wrong 1000 years ago, it does not justify crimes done today. Conquering can be done peacefully, and conquering can be done quickly, and with good intentions. But those zionists think it's ok to kill and steal civilians homes, and over a long time. 60 years of terror and lies.

Salaam brother peace seeker.

walaikum Salaaam dear brother CLynn

Greetings peace seeker,

Greetings CLynn,

You are asking;

" ironically, as i told you, the muslims never persecuted the Jews. And anyway, why should the Palestinians pay the price for Hitler who has nothing to do with Palestinians/ Islam / Christianity?"

Why did the western nations take in the Jewish people as temporary refugees during the war? Did they feel they were 'paying a price'... or were they doing the humanitarian thing? Did the arab nations step forward to do the humanitarian thing, as according to what everyone believes about Muhammad, he would have expected them to do... to do the humanitarian thing? Did any of them join in seeking a solution for a vastly displaced people? Where were their Godly teachings?

we don't need to ignore that the zionist project exists prior to the world wars, and i don't know how many times i need to tell you that Jews lived happily in Arab lands. And it has nothing to do with them what happened in the WW2. It is ridiculous to say that it's ok to steal their lands because they did not give humanitarian aid. CLynn, it was a pleasure discussing this issue, but i believe we are reaching rock bottom here, as you seem to use any justification to avoid condemning basic rules of monotheism and common sense of any normal-hearted human being. Unfortunately i don't feel that we can be brothers / or brother-sister at heart, because i can not imagine myself ever justifying crimes like that.

(back to my reading...)

best of luck in your reading

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Greetings peace seeker,

Another partial answer to what you wrote... It seems we both have alot to say. :)

yeah sorry for talking too much. :)

I agree the Christian history is tainted from the time when church and power were tied together... it is this that led to things like crusades... conquering under the false banner of God.

yes all prophets were usually killed, disobeyed while still being alive, and used after they died in wrong ways, while a small minority kept the true religion intact. All we can do is hope we are among this minority of true followers of God's True Religion.

This however is not what the state of Israel is doing. No one set out to conquer anyone. This state of affairs resulted only because the palestinians chose war rather than choosing to be part of a cooperative effort, being made by the rest of the world, in settling a displaced people.

how cooperate with occupying force, that is still happening today. They have been conquering and still are today. Really, i am surprised to see that there re people who deny this. Since when should people cooperate with invaders who come from Europe and from other countries and steal homes and land? How can one say the occupied people are wrong? that is the most ridiculous thing i've heard in long, and dear CLynn with all due respect, i don't think we can talk about this much longer. thanks!

Had it not been for this choice of theirs we would not be where we are today in the state of things.

choice to defend themselves? that they don't agree with invaders and occupiers thieves and colonizers who take their homes? Are you ignoring this crime and the crimes happening till now? That is really sad to see and each to his own. you can tell God this in the next life, i think i spent enough time talking with you.

It is the obstinate refusal to accept that the jews have an equal right to have a nation state of their own that is the barrier to peace.

we are really talking in circles. Jews were living in peace already there, and foreigners based on a project called zionism invaded and committed every crime imaginable, which is going on now.

It is necessary to separate actions of actual stealing from consequences brought about by war, and losing in war.

Do me a favor and read at this link?: http://www.jewishvir.../MFmandate.html

they are occupiers, and as long as you don't see this war crime, and deny the crimes, there is not point talking. And as long as you deny the crimes done to all indigenous people, the same thing counts. This includes the native people in the american continents. May the Palestinians who lived in peace with all monotheistic religions regain their land.

I think the state of Israel has tried time and again to be fair in reaching an post war settlement, but nothing they offer is acceptable... nothing but the denial of their right to exist as a nation is acceptable... This is prejudice, oppression, and un-Godly. How would it be if the world came together to say that no islamic state had a right to exist? Would that be right?

you are just spreading their propaganda. They stole the land, oppress the people, kill them, made them leave, and CLynn may this be the last post i discuss with you with God willing. Each to his own

Yes, I am familiar with the yassin massacre... many such atrocities and horrors have been committed by many people against one another throughout history. That is what we must overcome, and to overcome it we must first overcome the sins of man... for that we need Yeshua.

justice! we need justice for the native people of palestine. justice for them now and for all the people who were killed and robbed and abuse in the past and the ones who are being abuse and killed and robbed right now. The reason why this issue is important is because this is going on since over 60 years now, and only getting worse. May God open your heart to the truth one day CLynn, and give you the courage to defend the ones worth defending.

Yes, it is terribly sad what has happened in Egypt, and what has happened to Afghanistan through so many years of war beginning with the Russians, and what is happening to Syria now. It all brings me to tears.

i don't believe you. You should be crying at what the zionists have done and re doing right now all around the world. Cry for the palestinians in israeli prisons right now, or the ones who can not go back to their homes. Or cry because of the crimes that are initiated directly of indirectly through AIPAC and the zionist control of all the devilish governments and the fake monetary enslavement. Cry for justice if you are true, But i have my doubts about you now and am telling you this in all honesty without having grudges against you, while having hope that God enlightens you and opens your eyes.

I have watched programs on the bridge building efforts and programs to bring together and erase the prejudices that the plaestinians and the jews have come to have towards one another. It is so heartening, and heart warming, to see people come together. I too, hope that these efforts will yield results that will change future generations, and improve relations, and lead to peaceful co-existence between people and nations. From the time I first started studying islam it has made me sad, because from the beginning I have been able to see how much the culture of the muslims is like the culture of their brothers, the hebrews, and it is to me a shame to see one brother, so like another, yet against the other.

no need to ignore realities much further. Palestinians and arabs and muslims have not been evil and do not have this injustice upon their hands, including what is happening right now. Anyway, wishing you all the best and that one day you stop making occupiers and occupied as equals, and oppressors and oppressed as equals. and criminals and innocents as equals. But if you don't see the difference, then that's your own relationship with God. All the best to you and your family and wishing you all the truth in the world God willing one day, and may God forgive you and open your hearts.

I love your good heart peace seeker. I see that you truly see the Truth of the Lord in terms of us all being His children, and that there are those astray among all of us... most especially our leaders.

Thank you dear CLynn and i love you saying that. That is very kind, and i hope that God accepts our goodness and forgives our shortcomings. Personally i don't believe that God has children on parents, and that He is way above that, as outlined in the holy Quran. But i respect Christianity and Jewish religions, and believe that they are just religions that are very clear with things like oppression, theft, killing, stealing, lying and so on. So the people of those religions will be held accountable for those, and may God guide us all to the truth. All the best to you CLynn and thank you for this discussion.

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yeah sorry for talking too much. :)

Greetings peace seeker,

Not too much. Not at all. I'm so pleased that you don't run away or get angry. :)

I'll have to come back and read what you wrote much later today however. I have a busy day ahead.

Salaam,

CLynn

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Greetings peace seeker,

You said;

"crimes done to all indigenous people, the same thing counts."

You must feel then, that this also includes what is being done to the copts in Egypt?

You never gave an answer to one of my questions...

Were the arab lands offering anything to help the jews either during or after WWII?

Did they extend the arm of humanity to fellow brethren? ... (as Muhammad would have?)

Would they have allowed the jews to locate in palestine?

Your prayer for me is...

"and give you the courage to defend the ones worth defending."

I defend both.

and I believe this is most right in God's eyes. God knows my heart. He knows where is my heart, and it is for the good of all mankind.

People should not threaten one another but seek ways of helping one another. The palestinians did not seek to help their brethren in humanity during, or after, the inhumane WWII.

Please do believe me. I do not lie. I cry for the palestinians every single time I see the deaths on the streets that occur after a bomb has fallen. I cry every time I see starving children and people, in any part of the world, as well. I cry for all the people suffering needlessly on this planet. I cry for those who have done it to themselves, and for those who suffer at the hands of others.

You said;

"Cry for those who can not go back to their homes"

I lost my home at the hands of another. I moved on. I did not waste my time with fighting what had happened. I chose life and meeting my responsibilities. Fighting what happened was wasted energy when I had more important things that God wished me to be tending to. I started over in a new place with help from others. Where is the helping hand of arab neighbors that for so many years have refused to extend that hand to help displaced palestinians?

You say;

"But i have my doubts about you now and am telling you this in all honesty without having grudges against you, while having hope that God enlightens you and opens your eyes."

I thank you for being open and honest, and I am glad you do not hold a grudge against me for seeing things differently than you. I promise you though, you do not need to have doubts about me... my heart for all people is true.

I remember being told growing up that there were three things not to be talked about... that was, money, politics, and religion. It's easy to see why, but I don't agree. I think some things need to be talked about. I have always been open and wanted to talk about everything. It's the way God made me. :)

The problem is when people refuse to see both sides of an issue. People must be able to see both sides in order to reach a peaceable solution.

Salaam to you brother peace seeker.

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Greetings peace seeker,

Not too much. Not at all. I'm so pleased that you don't run away or get angry. :)

I'll have to come back and read what you wrote much later today however. I have a busy day ahead.

Salaam,

CLynn

Greetings CLynn, im not the type to ever run away (from conversations) and although i get angry sometimes i quickly forgive and forget. :)

walaikum Salaam.

Edited by peace seeker

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Greetings peace seeker,

Greetings CLynn

You said;

"crimes done to all indigenous people, the same thing counts."

You must feel then, that this also includes what is being done to the copts in Egypt?

yes absolutely. Now, when i talk to you as a Christian, i take into consideration and take for granted that you will not agree with wrong done by other self-proclaimed Christians. And the situation happening in Egypt today with copts lately has been highly unfortunate. It is a very new phenomenon, because the muslims and christians were living in perfect peace for most of history.

First of all the Egypt situation can be blamed on wahhabi influence that has recently brainwashed the population with a very harmful hypocritical version of islam. And, of course we can blame the supporters of wahhabi saudi family, and the ones who put them into place, which are the same people who created the zionist project. you see, all evil on earth is connected.

You never gave an answer to one of my questions...

Were the arab lands offering anything to help the jews either during or after WWII?

Did they extend the arm of humanity to fellow brethren? ... (as Muhammad would have?)

Would they have allowed the jews to locate in palestine?

as i told you before if it wasn't for the muslims there, the jews would be allowed to worship there to start with. And anyway, i believe the question is completely pointless. why not invade zimbabwe for not lending humanitarian aid to myanmar refugees.

Your prayer for me is...

"and give you the courage to defend the ones worth defending."

I defend both.

and I believe this is most right in God's eyes. God knows my heart. He knows where is my heart, and it is for the good of all mankind.

People should not threaten one another but seek ways of helping one another. The palestinians did not seek to help their brethren in humanity during, or after, the inhumane WWII.

what is happening in palestine now is worse than WW2. how long was the suffering of WW2? how many years? and how many years are the palestinians now suffering?

One can not support both, as one of them is right and wrong. Saying it's ok to destroy and steal the land and kill and rob people, because they didn't support them in Europe is just ridiculous. The way you talk is justifying what is being done against them right now, and of course God knows what is in your heart, and will judge you accordingly God willing.

Please do believe me. I do not lie. I cry for the palestinians every single time I see the deaths on the streets that occur after a bomb has fallen. I cry every time I see starving children and people, in any part of the world, as well. I cry for all the people suffering needlessly on this planet. I cry for those who have done it to themselves, and for those who suffer at the hands of others.

well, i know many good people who don't seem to see the obvious truth. Maybe one needs to be gifted by God to see things that are obvious. That it is wrong to steal peoples lands and to kill and lie. It's interesting, according to your theory if the people living in the neighborhood next to you don't help you out, then you reserve the right to go kill them, and take their homes. And if they resist, then it's their fault, because a couple of hundred years ago somebody did a crime.

You want to know justice of God:

1 life = 1 life

1 prisoner = 1 prisoner

1 theft = 1 theft

wether it's a jew muslim or christian

now, if you want to know who is right and who is wrong, find out how many people were killed directly and indirectly by the khazars and how many by the palestinians. find out how much land and how many homes were stolen by one people and the next. that is justice. and that is the justice of God. Because the feeling of dying or being killed is the same among all humans. It's not like a jew feeling death throes is any different from a palestinian child.

how many palestinian children are in their prisons? how many people had to leave their homes? civilians who are true semites and have been living there since always. Jews christians and muslims. how many people were displaced? and how many olive trees uprooted? how many homes bulldozed? God is Great and He will bring justice as predicted and promised by Jesus. you defending the so-called zionists is like you defending Judas, for being a jew, and neglecting the true Jewish believer Jesus Christ. They are killers, traitor and

You said;

"Cry for those who can not go back to their homes"

I lost my home at the hands of another. I moved on. I did not waste my time with fighting what had happened. I chose life and meeting my responsibilities. Fighting what happened was wasted energy when I had more important things that God wished me to be tending to. I started over in a new place with help from others. Where is the helping hand of arab neighbors that for so many years have refused to extend that hand to help displaced palestinians?

The arab nations neighboring have more and more become puppets of the same forces that are building the criminal zionist anti-christ state. There is no point defending crimes because anybody else is ok with it. the christians waiting for Jesus to come back must know that Jesus will never accept murderers and thieves as his nation. So what is happening there is by the enemies of Christ. And no point in looking at other people who may or may not agree with them or support them or at other people in history who maybe also did crimes. A crime is a crime, and killing and stealing is wrong. Whoever stole from you is wrong, and a nation built on people who stole your home is going to be a nation of thieves, in service of the enemy of God. And defending the devil isn't a very good thing to do. we seek refuge in God from the satan the accursed

You say;

"But i have my doubts about you now and am telling you this in all honesty without having grudges against you, while having hope that God enlightens you and opens your eyes."

I thank you for being open and honest, and I am glad you do not hold a grudge against me for seeing things differently than you. I promise you though, you do not need to have doubts about me... my heart for all people is true.

I remember being told growing up that there were three things not to be talked about... that was, money, politics, and religion. It's easy to see why, but I don't agree. I think some things need to be talked about. I have always been open and wanted to talk about everything. It's the way God made me. :)

i was taught the same thing. not money, but with politics and religion. i take this as the past age. This age is different with the internet, and also it seems that we have slowly reached the end-days as promised by my holy prophet and prophets of old. we have that in common :)

The problem is when people refuse to see both sides of an issue. People must be able to see both sides in order to reach a peaceable solution.

of course looking at weakness of palestinians and native americans, or native australians is always a possibility. It is possible to say that they also have corruption, and perhaps mistakes in their attitudes and religions. At the same time know that we all do as well. So, to know who truly is right and wrong in any conflict, we need to be just. God will weigh justice with a balance. To be just we can count, as i mentioned before.

how many people did either side kill?

how many square miles did either side steal?

how many homes did either side steal?

how many children, women, men are in jails either side?

how many torture cases?

how many lies?

how many villages bulldozed?

how many violations of internationally recognized human rights?

the palestinians are guilty of crimes for sure. but compared to the crimes by the invading colonizing occupying foreign forces, they are virtually zero.

each life counts, regardless of skin color or if they are palestinian, khazar, from sem or from japeth.

at the same time a person defending has different rights and accounts than a person attacking. but it's enough to just stick to cold numbers. how many killed? stolen? lied? we may not change the laws of God.

Salaam to you brother peace seeker.

walaikum Salaam to you dear brother / sister CLynn and wishing you all the best

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Greetings CLynn, im not the type to ever run away (from conversations)

hehehe - Yes, I would probably run away from bullets. :-P Although some may beg to differ. I can become fearless in the face of perceived injustice.

and although i get angry sometimes i quickly forgive and forget. :)

walaikum Salaam.

This is very nice to know. :)

walaikum Salaam also.

The mods should make a competition for 'Thread which is the biggest waste of time on Shiachat'

Despite all the muta, marriage and tatbir threads, this one would still win.

Hands down.

Greetings mohammad_mahdi,

Why do you say so?

Salaam.

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Greetings peace seeker,

I have a very long reply if I get around to it, but just now I am curious to ask why you mention khazars...

khazar was a people, a certain empire that converted to Judaism.

In what way do the khazars figure into our discussion?

Isn't it a bit like referring to safavids, or sassanids, or ottomans... who were also converts to islam?

Thanks,

CLynn

Edited by CLynn

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Greetings CLynn,

I refer to them as Khazars, because i think that's the most accurate description of who they are, and specifically their non-semitic roots.

there is an interesting article that brother nemesis from the blessed armenian church posted somewhere the other day:

http://www.apfn.org/thewinds/library/khazars.html

it claims that they are related to gog magog.

another reason why i don't want to call them "israel", is out of respect for Jacob / Israel who was a Prophet of God and i don't want to insult him.

but as long as any person from any race follows Judaism, then they can be judged based on their books. ( and of course their 10 commandments )

thanks,

peace seeker

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