Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
AlphaMale_ASAD

Am I Really Shia?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Assalaymu alaykom,

Every since I reverted to Shiism from being sunni, about two and half years ago, there a certain things I have learned that I can never find myself agreeing with yet some thing I definitely agree with in comparison to different sunni mathabs. Here are a few....

View on CERTAIN sahaba: I agree with disliked Abu Bakr, Umar, khalid ibn walid, uthman, Zobeir, Abu Sufyan, aisha etc for the things they did. I don't believe Sahaba are in anyway infallible and what they did cannot just be ignored. Being friendly towards them would mean me agreeing with their treatment of other sahaba such as abu dharr, bilal ibn rabah, ammar ibn yasir etc.

Love for the Ahlul bayt: This is for every muslim, what I dont agree with is that the universe was created out of the liight of the ahlul bayt or for the love of the ahlul bayt.

Imams: Yes, I do believe there were to be 12 caliphas and believe all of the imams were chosen by Allah swt. My issue is occultation. Not that it is impossible, but that I can't believe he is dead in the sense that isnt the same as how Nabi Isa a.s. is dead. I believe both will come back, but I dont believe that without the 12 imam our universe pretty much would go out of balance.

Prayer: Hands down I definitely agree and praying on something from the earth is wajib, yet I see the hadith where the prophet allowed it in extreme conditions. So the Maliki view that its makrooh to pray on something thats not from the earth, So maybe wajib itihayt? I dont know.

Pre Destination: View is the same, not sure of sunni mathabs views individually.

Prayer timings and Wudhu: Both agree with shia views.

Mutah: Agree with shia.

Dua Tuwassul: There is no debate on this between the four mathabs and shia on this. Anyone who says otherwise is listening to salafi preachers and not their mathab's mufti.

Lannat: My view will is synonmous with myself. If you were or am a enemy of Islam oppressing true believers or leading them to wars between our ummah then you should be prayed against. The same if you are oppressing non muslims that havent drove us from our homes or caused us oppression. Whether this is 1300 plus years ago or yesterday. If anyone can prove these people haven't commited such acts spoken of, then I have nothing but love for them.

How many of these things are truly a aqeedah difference and a fiqh difference?

Jazaak Allah khairun

Edited by AlphaMale_ASAD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Love for the Ahlul bayt: This is for every muslim, what I dont agree with is that the universe was created out of the liight of the ahlul bayt or for the love of the ahlul bayt.

Imams: Yes, I do believe there were to be 12 caliphas and believe all of the imams were chosen by Allah swt. My issue is occultation. Not that it is impossible, but that I can't believe he is dead in the sense that isnt the same as how Nabi Isa a.s. is dead. I believe both will come back, but I dont believe that without the 12 imam our universe pretty much would go out of balance.

Are the above bolded parts essential part of shia belief?

Or is it more a ghuluw ?

Assalaymu alaykom,

Every since I reverted to Shiism from being sunni, about two and half years ago, there a certain things I have learned that I can never find myself agreeing with yet some thing I definitely agree with in comparison to different sunni mathabs. Here are a few....

View on CERTAIN sahaba: I agree with disliked Abu Bakr, Umar, khalid ibn walid, uthman, Zobeir, Abu Sufyan, aisha etc for the things they did. I don't believe Sahaba are in anyway infallible and what they did cannot just be ignored. Being friendly towards them would mean me agreeing with their treatment of other sahaba such as abu dharr, bilal ibn rabah, ammar ibn yasir etc.

Love for the Ahlul bayt: This is for every muslim, what I dont agree with is that the universe was created out of the liight of the ahlul bayt or for the love of the ahlul bayt.

Imams: Yes, I do believe there were to be 12 caliphas and believe all of the imams were chosen by Allah swt. My issue is occultation. Not that it is impossible, but that I can't believe he is dead in the sense that isnt the same as how Nabi Isa a.s. is dead. I believe both will come back, but I dont believe that without the 12 imam our universe pretty much would go out of balance.

Prayer: Hands down I definitely agree and praying on something from the earth is wajib, yet I see the hadith where the prophet allowed it in extreme conditions. So the Maliki view that its makrooh to pray on something thats not from the earth, So maybe wajib itihayt? I dont know.

Pre Destination: View is the same, not sure of sunni mathabs views individually.

Prayer timings and Wudhu: Both agree with shia views.

Mutah: Agree with shia.

Dua Tuwassul: There is no debate on this between the four mathabs and shia on this. Anyone who says otherwise is listening to salafi preachers and not their mathab's mufti.

Lannat: My view will is synonmous with myself. If you were or am a enemy of Islam oppressing true believers or leading them to wars between our ummah then you should be prayed against. The same if you are oppressing non muslims that havent drove us from our homes or caused us oppression. Whether this is 1300 plus years ago or yesterday. If anyone can prove these people haven't commited such acts spoken of, then I have nothing but love for them.

How many of these things are truly a aqeedah difference and a fiqh difference?

Jazaak Allah khairun

Off-topic but since you are "revert" from sunnism, do you take part in the Muharram self-flagellation rituals? How about tatbir (rituals with blood-letting) ? [You do not have to answer it if you don't want to]

Edited by Zigzag

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice thread, i will comment briefly about some points, without rambling (if i achieve that, this will be a first for me)

Lover for Ahlul Bait and the creation of the universe. This is a deep subject. This is how i look at it. I put the Ahlul Bait on one side, and the universe on the other. Ahlul Bait are the embodiment of pure love and servitude of Allah (SWT). The universe is a collection of stellar dust, and we (everyone other than Ahlul Bait) are basically star dust (only our taqwa (God conciousness) ever makes us worth more than that).

Imam and occultation: you might have an incomplete understanding of this. The Imam is very much alive and a working at shaping this world, but not in front of people. He is working "behind the scenes" so to speak, in many forms, one of which is guiding many of the top scholars who have guided us for over a millenium. Again, the worth of our Imam is incomprehensible. It is like the water left on a needle after you take it out of the ocean, and comparing it with the ocean. This goes back to the Imam's perfect relationship with Allah, and our (my) very flawed one with The All Merciful

Pre-destination and free will: the Imam explained it perfectly. A man asked what the balance between free will and predestination was. The Imam told the man to raise his right leg up, which the man did. The Imam then told him to lift his left leg up simultaneously, which obviously the man failed. The Imam explained that was the balance of predestination and free will, it's 50/50. the family we're born to, our genetics, our rizq (sustenace) is for the most part predestined, but all our actions are purely free will. That's the only way it makes sense to be rewarded for our good deeds, and punished for our bad

La'nat: literally means to ask Allah to invoke His curse on a guilty party. It is used in the Quran on several occasions. It is not an integral part on one's faith. One doesn't have to use specific names, but if saying something general, like: Oh Allah invoke your curse on all who have hurt the Prophet and his household and did not repent: i don't see the harm in that.

Right, i failed my anti rambling goal, big time

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Off-topic but since you are "revert" from sunnism, do you take part in the Muharram self-flagellation rituals? How about tatbir (rituals with blood-letting) ? [You do not have to answer it if you don't want to]

Matam yes i do. Tatbir? No.

And I'm not sure honestly if there part of aqeedah.

"Imam and occultation: you might have an incomplete understanding of this. The Imam is very much alive and a working at shaping this world, but not in front of people. He is working "behind the scenes" so to speak, in many forms, one of which is guiding many of the top scholars who have guided us for over a millenium. Again, the worth of our Imam is incomprehensible. It is like the water left on a needle after you take it out of the ocean, and comparing it with the ocean. This goes back to the Imam's perfect relationship with Allah, and our (my) very flawed one with The All Merciful"

I dont believe any of these beliefs. ^

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Imams: Yes, I do believe there were to be 12 caliphas and believe all of the imams were chosen by Allah swt. My issue is occultation. Not that it is impossible, but that I can't believe he is dead in the sense that isnt the same as how Nabi Isa a.s. is dead. I believe both will come back, but I dont believe that without the 12 imam our universe pretty much would go out of balance.

I actually see that as the only reasonable explanation. To me, the Imam is a cosmological necessity by virtue of his ontological status as the 'Proof of God'. His 'Imprint on the Universe', if you will. Reducing the Imam to be nothing more than a socio-political religious leader would make the concept of occultation untenable for me.

(wasalam)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ So if presence of Imam is vital for the universe to exist, what about the period between Isa (as) and the Prophet (pbuh) ?

Do you guys believe there were other pious people around acting as imams but not Prophets?

Imam and occultation: you might have an incomplete understanding of this. The Imam is very much alive and a working at shaping this world, but not in front of people. He is working "behind the scenes" so to speak, in many forms, one of which is guiding many of the top scholars who have guided us for over a millenium. Again, the worth of our Imam is incomprehensible. It is like the water left on a needle after you take it out of the ocean, and comparing it with the ocean. This goes back to the Imam's perfect relationship with Allah, and our (my) very flawed one with The All Merciful

Is it a shia belief that their top scholars are 'guided' by the Mehdi ?

How does the Mehdi guide them ? -the method-

I have asked this question before but apart from the usual "like the sun behind the clouds" statement, didn't get much info.

If a top marja'a claims that some part of his book or statement has been authenticated by the Imam Mehdi, how would he prove it ?

Edited by Zigzag

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته - May peace be upon you as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

اللّهم صلّ على محمّد وآل محمّد - O Allah please pray upon Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad

عظم الله لكم الأجر بذكرى الأليمة لشهادة حبيبة رسول الله صلوات الله وسلامه عليه وآله فاطمة الزهراء عليها السلام - May Allah increase your good deeds for the painful remembrance of the martyrdom of the beloved of the Messenger may Allah's prayers and peace be upon him and his Family, Fatima al-Zahra peace be upon her

بسم الله الرّحمن الرّحبم - Thanks to the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

^ So if presence of Imam is vital for the universe to exist, what about the period between Isa (as) and the Prophet (pbuh) ?

Do you guys believe there were other pious people around acting as imams but not Prophets?

I asked a scholar about this, and he gave an example: Abdul-Muttalib -as- (the grandfather of Muhammad -pbuh&hf- and Ali -pbuh-) was such an Imam, who used to lead the people. But i'd like more details about the subject...

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته - And upon you be peace as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Imams: Yes, I do believe there were to be 12 caliphas and believe all of the imams were chosen by Allah swt. My issue is occultation. Not that it is impossible, but that I can't believe he is dead in the sense that isnt the same as how Nabi Isa a.s. is dead. I believe both will come back, but I dont believe that without the 12 imam our universe pretty much would go out of balance.

The universe has existed for billions of years before mankind even existed. So what do you mean when you say that, without the 12th Imam, the universe would go out of balance?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ So if presence of Imam is vital for the universe to exist, what about the period between Isa (as) and the Prophet (pbuh) ?

Do you guys believe there were other pious people around acting as imams but not Prophets?

The universe has existed for billions of years before mankind even existed. So what do you mean when you say that, without the 12th Imam, the universe would go out of balance?

It is important to remember that with this conception of Imamate that the first Imam would be Adam [as], foremost would be Muhammad [sawa], and the last would be the Qa'im [as]. These would all be historical manifestions of the Archetypal Imam in his Ontological sense. The First Creation of Allah [swt]. We have numerous narrations in early Shi'i hadith literature that speak of the Primordial Light of Muhammad [sawa] as the first thing that Allah [swt] created. From this light was derived the other lights of the Masumeen [as]. Of course, here we are talking of this light, metaphysically, not literally. Basically, the Imam in his ontological sense would act as the manifestation of the Divine Names and Attributes. The Repository of Knowledge (all that can possibly be known of God through His Names and Attributes). Here, the profound implication is that the Imam, acting as the Insan al-Kamil (Perfect Man), becomes the 'Proof of God, the Creator'. The pinnacle of perfection in his Creation is realized through the Imam. God is ultimately Unknowable and utterly Transcendent, so the only way for his creation to know of Him is through His Names and Attributes (as opposed to His Essence, which is forever concealed from Creation). For example, the Imam would be the most merciful creature, reflecting God's Attribute, ar-Rahman. There are many traditions in which companions ask the Imams [as] if the Earth could ever remain devoid of an Imam, and they always stated something along the lines of 'if there are even two people left, one of them must be the Imam' and that 'the Earth will cave into itself, if the Imam was absent even for a moment'. So, yes, the Universe did exist prior to human existence, but as stated earlier, the creation of the light of Muhammad [sawa] preceded all such material entities. I suppose in this case, it would only be neccessary for the Imam to exist in human form when there are such human beings on the Earth. Otherwise, such a 'Proof' would not need to be manifested in human form, if no other being was at such a level of consciousness as to percieve that 'Proof'. As far as we know, the human being is the only one that actually has such a developed mind and consciousness to reflect on the nature of their own existence and that of the Cosmos. So, a human 'Proof' for human beings.

In regards to the question about the roughly 600 year period between Prophet `Isa [as] and Prophet Muhammad [sawa], it would reflect the events that followed the latter. That is that the disciples of `Isa [as] would adhere themselves to his Shari'ah and carry forth the Imamate (namely, the cosmological aspect of it) until the coming of Muhammad [sawa]. This would be the Shi'i reading of the historical events that unfolded after `Isa [as] through such a paradigm. Although, particulars of this period are debated. Refer to Brother Qa'im's thread 'After Jesus' for further research into the events following Prophet `Isa [as].

Is it a shia belief that their top scholars are 'guided' by the Mehdi ?

This is definitely a contemporary belief that the most religiously knowledgeable and pious jurists are considered 'general' representatives of the Mahdi [as]. Stories are even told of how certain scholars had made incorrect rulings and allegedly recieved 'guidance' from the Imam [as] so as to correct their sincere mistakes. However, this appears to be a later development, not actually rooted in the early or even later hadith literature, which 'coincidentally' results in the rise of the jurists as authoritative interpreters of religious life. So, I personally would not adhere to this notion and don't at all believe it to be essential to one's faith. That's my take on it.

(wasalam)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok,

So it sounds like, we are referring to, a metaphysical "light", provided to all that exists. During the time of the Imams, this "light" would manifest itself through them. At times when the physical beings werent around, it would represent itself in other forms.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ I'm not sure how this primordial light would have manifested itself before us, or whether or not it would even be necessary without human existence. If it wasn't for our existence, I'm not sure any other conscious creature would reflect upon their own existence in the manner that we do. I guess one can, perhaps, say that the light would manifest itself outwardly (in the form of the historical Imam) only when such a light also entered the human being as well. In other words, one might say that these other ancestral creatures (if we assume an evolutionary paradigm) were not yet fully developed 'humans'. It was only when the Almighty blew His Divine Breath into 'Adam' that he became 'human'. So, what defines the human being is exactly that, his humanity, not his physical features. And this Divine Breath may even be that light only now internalized in the human being. So, we use this `aql (inner imam) to help us perceive and understand the outer imam (the historical manifestation). Here, though we would be getting into some deeper stuff. And trying to tie this back into what the hadith literature says. Like, in the statement of the sixth Imam, Ja'far as-Sadiq [as], "Without God, we would not be known, and without us, God would not be known." (as-Saduq, Kitab al-Tawhid, ch. 41, num. 10). There's more I'd like to say and may come back to elaborate on this further, Insha'Allah. This is just where my latest readings and contemplation is leading me, although I'm not sure how coherent it sounds. Allahu 'Alam.

(wasalam)

Edited by Ibn al-Hassan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

k.

It sounded as though, you had stated that, the universe could not exist without the light of the Imamate. So, before mankind, it would exist in some form, not necessarily as a person.

That is what it sounded like you said. If not, feel free to clarify.

Thank you,

Wa Salaam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ That's precisely what I'm not sure about, whether or not it was manifested in some other way or, perhaps, only manifested at the beginning of human existence. It would determine how literally 'the Earth caving into itself' should be taken.

(wasalam)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Imams: Yes, I do believe there were to be 12 caliphas and believe all of the imams were chosen by Allah swt. My issue is occultation. Not that it is impossible, but that I can't believe he is dead in the sense that isnt the same as how Nabi Isa a.s. is dead. I believe both will come back, but I dont believe that without the 12 imam our universe pretty much would go out of balance.

Salam Alaikom

Look at Prophet Khidr, who went into occultation .

Look also at the age of prophet Nuh who lived for more than 900 years according to the Quran

These are all miracles from Allah and it is also a miracle for the Imam of our time to be in occultation and have a secret identity, until he receives a revelation from Allah .

The imam is in occultation so we can miss him, yearn to see him again and put efforts to join his army .. by purifying our naffs and actively awaiting.

2 human beings miss each other when they are absent, so its the same with Imam Mahdi ;)

Edited by -Enlightened

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...