Illegitimate Children And Heaven

[Khadim uz Zahra]

(bismillah)

(salam)

I hope all of you are in the best of health and Imaan.

So, I think we all know of the aHadith that say that the love of Ahlulbayt (peace be upon them all) is a prerequisite for entering Heaven. But, I have also heard of aHadith in many Urdu lectures that list those who will not love Ahlulbayt (peace be upon them all) and one of these is an illegitimate child. I get why that they can't be judges, etcetera as a precautionary measure but what about loving Ahlulbayt (peace be upon them all). I mean, it's not the child's fault whatever sins his parents. Plus, not being able to love Ahlulbayt (peace be upon them all) would mean that, according to the other Hadith, they can't also go to Heaven.

So, is there any explanation to this or are these Hadith which make this claim dha'eef?

[Ali-Reza]

On 4/3/2013 at 12:27 PM, Khadim uz Zahra said:

 I mean, it's not the child's fault whatever sins his parents. 

It is never a child's fault when they are born into an athiest family, christian, jews, etc. Same argument can be used for this.

[Hasan0404]

Put it like that, those who do not love ahlulbayt a.s are of non noble birth, not all the as you mentioned.

Ruling of H.E Khamenei,

Bismihi Ta`ala

Salamun `alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

1. If both parents of the child [in case he is still a child] are, or one of them is, Muslim, he is ruled as pure. However, there are certain rules apply to him like if he is born out of fornication by both his parents, he doesn't inherit them and his parents don't inherit him as well. Also, he couldn't be a marji` of taqlid, a judge, etc.

2. Mere being an illegitimate child does not prevent him/her to be a Muslim/Mu'min.

With prayers for your success

Q) Assalam o Alykum,

What is the status of a person being born [Edited Out] in Islam? Does islam bars his status as a muslim and momin?

[Koshaan]

I've often wondered this myself- the sins of the parents visiting on the kids, kind of

[Haydar Husayn]

If love for the Ahlulbayt is a prerequisite for entering heaven, does that mean you think all those who have never heard of the Ahlulbayt (which is the vast majority of all humans who have ever existed) are going to hell?

Hadiths should be interpreted in light of the Quran, not the other way around. And such a 'rule' has nothing to do with the Quran's emphasis on the mercy and justice of Allah (swt).

There is also the whole question of what illegitimate would even mean in the context of a person who came from secular or atheist parents. In today's secular society, marriage has almost no meaning anymore for most people. So at most, it would seem likely that in today's society, these ahadith would only apply mainly to Muslims.

[Khadim uz Zahra]

If love for the Ahlulbayt is a prerequisite for entering heaven, does that mean you think all those who have never heard of the Ahlulbayt (which is the vast majority of all humans who have ever existed) are going to hell?

Hadiths should be interpreted in light of the Quran, not the other way around. And such a 'rule' has nothing to do with the Quran's emphasis on the mercy and justice of Allah (swt).

There is also the whole question of what illegitimate would even mean in the context of a person who came from secular or atheist parents. In today's secular society, marriage has almost no meaning anymore for most people. So at most, it would seem likely that in today's society, these ahadith would only apply mainly to Muslims.

Which is exactly why I asked the question.

And, obviously, those who haven't heard of Ahlulbayt have completely different rules. I mean, those people living in the Amazon may even go to Heaven without hearing the word Allah in their life...

Unfortunately, I don't have the Hadith but anyone who is knowledgeable and has heard just a few Urdu lectures should have heard them - they are quite popular in the Tabarra "sessions". So, anyone who is knowledgeable and has come across them, what can you say about the chain?

[guest 34193]

وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ ۚ وَإِن تَدْعُ مُثْقَلَةٌ إِلَىٰ حِمْلِهَا لَا يُحْمَلْ مِنْهُ شَيْءٌ وَلَوْ كَانَ ذَا قُرْبَىٰ ۗ إِنَّمَا تُنذِرُ الَّذِينَ يَخْشَوْنَ رَبَّهُم بِالْغَيْبِ وَأَقَامُوا الصَّلَاةَ ۚ وَمَن تَزَكَّىٰ فَإِنَّمَا يَتَزَكَّىٰ لِنَفْسِهِ ۚ وَإِلَى اللَّـهِ الْمَصِيرُ

No soul laden bears the load of another; and if one heavy-burdened calls for its load to be carried, not a thing of it will be carried, though he be a near kinsman. Thou warnest only those who fear their Lord in the Unseen and perform the prayer; and whosoever purifies himself, purifies himself only for his own soul's good. To God is the homecoming. (35:18)

قُلْ أَغَيْرَ اللَّـهِ أَبْغِي رَبًّا وَهُوَ رَبُّ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ ۚ وَلَا تَكْسِبُ كُلُّ نَفْسٍ إِلَّا عَلَيْهَا ۚ وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ ۚ ثُمَّ إِلَىٰ رَبِّكُم مَّرْجِعُكُمْ فَيُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ

Say: 'Shall I seek after a Lord other than God, who is the Lord of all things?' Every soul earns only to its own account, no soul laden bears the load of another. Then to your Lord shall you return, and He will tell you of that whereon you were at variance. (6:164)

[Haydar Husayn]

Which is exactly why I asked the question.

And, obviously, those who haven't heard of Ahlulbayt have completely different rules. I mean, those people living in the Amazon may even go to Heaven without hearing the word Allah in their life...

Unfortunately, I don't have the Hadith but anyone who is knowledgeable and has heard just a few Urdu lectures should have heard them - they are quite popular in the Tabarra "sessions". So, anyone who is knowledgeable and has come across them, what can you say about the chain?

Yeah, I've seen them, but I don't really think that is how they should be interpreted.

Anyway, I think those who go around talking about these ahadith without any context or explanation are being extremely irresponsible. What if a person born illegitimately were to hear that? Would they be likely to be drawn to the ahlulbayt (as) after that? They might as well start quoting ahadith about the zanj and other races. Let's see how well that draws in certain ethnicities.

[Khadim uz Zahra]

وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ ۚ وَإِن تَدْعُ مُثْقَلَةٌ إِلَىٰ حِمْلِهَا لَا يُحْمَلْ مِنْهُ شَيْءٌ وَلَوْ كَانَ ذَا قُرْبَىٰ ۗ إِنَّمَا تُنذِرُ الَّذِينَ يَخْشَوْنَ رَبَّهُم بِالْغَيْبِ وَأَقَامُوا الصَّلَاةَ ۚ وَمَن تَزَكَّىٰ فَإِنَّمَا يَتَزَكَّىٰ لِنَفْسِهِ ۚ وَإِلَى اللَّـهِ الْمَصِيرُ

No soul laden bears the load of another; and if one heavy-burdened calls for its load to be carried, not a thing of it will be carried, though he be a near kinsman. Thou warnest only those who fear their Lord in the Unseen and perform the prayer; and whosoever purifies himself, purifies himself only for his own soul's good. To God is the homecoming. (35:18)

قُلْ أَغَيْرَ اللَّـهِ أَبْغِي رَبًّا وَهُوَ رَبُّ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ ۚ وَلَا تَكْسِبُ كُلُّ نَفْسٍ إِلَّا عَلَيْهَا ۚ وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ ۚ ثُمَّ إِلَىٰ رَبِّكُم مَّرْجِعُكُمْ فَيُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ

Say: 'Shall I seek after a Lord other than God, who is the Lord of all things?' Every soul earns only to its own account, no soul laden bears the load of another. Then to your Lord shall you return, and He will tell you of that whereon you were at variance. (6:164)

Yes, I get all that and I obviously understand that the illegitimate children will still go to Heaven if they are good, etcetera but my question is, what of the Hadith? We reject them because they contradict the Quran, their matn is not logical, they have a weak chain or what?

[Nima]

وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ ۚ وَإِن تَدْعُ مُثْقَلَةٌ إِلَىٰ حِمْلِهَا لَا يُحْمَلْ مِنْهُ شَيْءٌ وَلَوْ كَانَ ذَا قُرْبَىٰ ۗ إِنَّمَا تُنذِرُ الَّذِينَ يَخْشَوْنَ رَبَّهُم بِالْغَيْبِ وَأَقَامُوا الصَّلَاةَ ۚ وَمَن تَزَكَّىٰ فَإِنَّمَا يَتَزَكَّىٰ لِنَفْسِهِ ۚ وَإِلَى اللَّـهِ الْمَصِيرُ

No soul laden bears the load of another; and if one heavy-burdened calls for its load to be carried, not a thing of it will be carried, though he be a near kinsman. Thou warnest only those who fear their Lord in the Unseen and perform the prayer; and whosoever purifies himself, purifies himself only for his own soul's good. To God is the homecoming. (35:18)

قُلْ أَغَيْرَ اللَّـهِ أَبْغِي رَبًّا وَهُوَ رَبُّ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ ۚ وَلَا تَكْسِبُ كُلُّ نَفْسٍ إِلَّا عَلَيْهَا ۚ وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ ۚ ثُمَّ إِلَىٰ رَبِّكُم مَّرْجِعُكُمْ فَيُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ

Say: 'Shall I seek after a Lord other than God, who is the Lord of all things?' Every soul earns only to its own account, no soul laden bears the load of another. Then to your Lord shall you return, and He will tell you of that whereon you were at variance. (6:164)

Unfortunately according to the hadiths the child f a illegitimate birth cant be a marja or to lead the prayer, because of the parents fault.

It clearly goes against the verse of the quran ( no soul laden bears the load of another).

Sometimes it seems as if there is a no clear difference between the Quran and Hadiths.

Shouldnt hadiths be interpreted in the ligth of the Quran?

Many would say that the reason is to protect the child, but really? ...

Edited April 3, 2013 by Nima

[Hasan0404]

Put it like that, those who do not love ahlulbayt a.s are of non noble birth,

do not love means hate here, going against them knowing their status.

[Nima]

By: Fatema Makki

The phenomenon of begetting illegitimate children, who are born out of wedlock and do not bear the father’s name, is an ancient one that is well-known among cultures and nations. The rate of illegitimate children varies from one society to another is determined by moral immunity, which is influenced by religious education and cultural norms. Accordingly, the more religious and moral a society is, the less illegitimate children it would contain and vice versa.

In some societies, the number of illegitimate children has become even more than that of legitimate ones. During the Renaissance in Europe, as mentioned by Will Durant, in The Story of Civilization, it was noticed that there was a huge number of illegitimate children all over Italy, and the few who did not beget any illegitimate children were considered entitled to be proud. However, parents who had illegitimate children were not actually viewed as shameful to their parents. A father would even ask his wife to help raising his illegitimate children and regard them as part of the family. Society almost disregarded this social phenomenon and the illegitimate child would become legitimate by giving the church a donation.

In contemporary Western civilizations, the matter has become ordinary and is even no longer viewed as a phenomenon. Both illegitimate children and legitimate ones enjoy the same rights.

On the other hand, the Islamic society, despite some exceptions, has remained free of illegitimate children. Sexual relations performed out of wedlock are still considered impermissible. However, there is more to the matter. The issue must be scrutinized as some reported traditions relate that certain jurists take a harsh stand against illegitimate children; the fact that gives the impression that Islam discriminates against this category of people.

Allah says in His Holly book: “no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another.” (39:07). In other verses, it has been mentioned: “So he who has done an atom's weight of good shall see it. And he who has done an atom's weight of evil shall see it.” (99:07-8). Both verses emphasize a significant Islamic concept that man is judged by his actions rather than his origins or the deeds committed by his nation, ancestors, or even father and mother. If the matter were not so, then Islam would not be a religion of justice.

Accordingly, illegitimate children are to be judged for their deeds and actions. If they do well, hey shall be rewarded, and if bad, they shall be punished. It would be unfair, and rather unethical to mistreat them or form an opinion of them by a sin they have not committed. Imam As-Sadeq (a.s.) said: “When an illegitimate child is prepared to perform his duties and able to do work of training, if his deeds are good he will get rewards for it and if he does bad he will be punished;” which further emphasizes that it is not the child’s fault and shall be treated and regarded accordingly.

However, an illegitimately born person cannot lead prayers nor become a religious authority. Allah has endowed certain sanctity in these two positions. The character of one who would be responsible for performing prayers or becoming a religious authority must not be controversial or disputatious. In the same sense, it is considered impermissible to pray behind a lewd dissolute person who is known for committing sins. Thus, the matter is not that of discriminating against illegitimate people, but pertaining to the sanctity of the aforementioned positions.

Allah has intended for us a life of ease rather than hardship. One ought to lead of life of morality and righteousness in order to obtain the good of both the life and the after-life.

http://english.bayynat.org.lb/articles/article_perspective.htm

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ ۚ وَإِن تَدْعُ مُثْقَلَةٌ إِلَىٰ حِمْلِهَا لَا يُحْمَلْ مِنْهُ شَيْءٌ وَلَوْ كَانَ ذَا قُرْبَىٰ ۗ إِنَّمَا تُنذِرُ الَّذِينَ يَخْشَوْنَ رَبَّهُم بِالْغَيْبِ وَأَقَامُوا الصَّلَاةَ ۚ وَمَن تَزَكَّىٰ فَإِنَّمَا يَتَزَكَّىٰ لِنَفْسِهِ ۚ وَإِلَى اللَّـهِ الْمَصِيرُ

No soul laden bears the load of another; and if one heavy-burdened calls for its load to be carried, not a thing of it will be carried, though he be a near kinsman. Thou warnest only those who fear their Lord in the Unseen and perform the prayer; and whosoever purifies himself, purifies himself only for his own soul's good. To God is the homecoming. (35:18)

قُلْ أَغَيْرَ اللَّـهِ أَبْغِي رَبًّا وَهُوَ رَبُّ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ ۚ وَلَا تَكْسِبُ كُلُّ نَفْسٍ إِلَّا عَلَيْهَا ۚ وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ ۚ ثُمَّ إِلَىٰ رَبِّكُم مَّرْجِعُكُمْ فَيُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ

Say: 'Shall I seek after a Lord other than God, who is the Lord of all things?' Every soul earns only to its own account, no soul laden bears the load of another. Then to your Lord shall you return, and He will tell you of that whereon you were at variance. (6:164)

How convenient isn't it ?

The ahadees on this subject do not contradict Quran and to know that one has to believe in atleast Alam al dharr and alam all arwa although there are other alams too. The cursed iblees has been granted two children for every One child of Adam a.s. people have beengiven some laws aand are asked to abide by them like do not fornicate, do not have sex when your wife is in mensurations, few nights and some hours of the month but if they disobey they have wronged themselves and are liable for punishment or forgiveness however if the act results in a carriage then the bofy and soul of a child among children of Satan are sent.

The child wasn't punished for their parent's mistake but it was his denial of wilaya of mohammad wa aale mohammad a.s in alam al arwaa .

Now coming back to illegitimates they have certain qualities through which they are distinguished and ahadees are explicit about them. The illegitimates cannot love Ali a.s and other aimma a.s and it was famous among early Christians regarding hazrat isa a.s. I think they had similar texts like we have or maybe Ali a.s and Is a a.s are chosen for such a clarification.

Every prophet from Adam a.s to Mohammad a.s have been told to or each tauheed , nabbuwat, and the wilaya of Mohammad wa aale Mohammad a.s. the previous nations have used tavassul of Mohammad wa aale Mohammad a.s and is documented in our books so HH your another question as to those who are not from the ones of the divine religion and were totally unaware of Mohammad wa aale Mohammad a.s, if it is a true claim, they will have a spot test on yom al qiyama.

[muhibb-ali]

(bismillah)

(salam)

This is very much in lines with the Holy Quran. See the following verses from Surah Al-Qalam:

وَلَا تُطِعْ كُلَّ حَلَّافٍ مَّهِينٍ

And yield not to any mean swearer [68:10]

هَمَّازٍ مَّشَّاءٍ بِنَمِيمٍ

Defamer, going about with slander [68:11]

مَّنَّاعٍ لِّلْخَيْرِ مُعْتَدٍ أَثِيمٍ

For-bidder of good, out stepping the limits, sinful [68:12]

عُتُلٍّ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ زَنِيمٍ

Ignoble, besides all that, base-born (illegitimate) [68:13]

The above set of verses from Surah Al-Qalam refer to the enemy of the Holy Prophet (saww) who used to Slander and Mock at the Prophet (saww). We see that all the hatefull qualities described for the enemy of the Holy Prophet (saww) are evil acts committed by the individual himself but along with that we also have a unique quality 'Illegitimate' which is not apparently an action committed by the individual himself.

Narration for this verse:

و هو ما روي عن محمد بن جمهور عن حماد بن عيسى عن حسين بن مختار عنهم صلوات الله عليهم أجمعين في قوله عز و جل وَ لا تُطِعْ كُلَّ حَلَّافٍ مَهِينٍ الثاني هَمَّازٍ مَشَّاءٍ بِنَمِيمٍ مَنَّاعٍ لِلْخَيْرِ مُعْتَدٍ أَثِيمٍ عُتُلٍّ بَعْدَ ذلِكَ زَنِيمٍ قال العتل الكافر العظيم الكفر و الزنيم ولد الزناء

Narrated From Muhammad bin Majhoor, from Hammad bin Isa from Husain bin Mukhtar from Them (as),

Regarding the saying of Allah (swt), "And yield not to any mean swearer " [68:10]; (meaning) The second.

Defamer, going about with slander, For-bidder of good, out stepping the limits, sinful, Ignoble, besides all that, base-born (illegitimate) [68:11-13]; Imam (as) said, 'Al-Utulu' is the disbeliever is great disbelieve. And 'Al-zaneem' is the illegitimate born.

[source: Taaweel Al-Aayat, Vol.2, Pg. 712]

Edited April 10, 2013 by muhibb-ali

[Hot hot]

An illegitimate child can never love ali a.s or an illegit will only oppose ahlylbayt a.s Everytime I have heard this only in urdu majlises.

[guest 34193]

What type of religion and God do you guys believe in? Would you tell the convert who wishes to accept Islam and Tashayyu`, but whose parents were unwed, don't bother, you're going to Hell anyway no matter what you do or believe, and that if you think you love the Imams then forget it, you really don't no matter you feel? Have you ever really known such people on a personal level and dealt with that? Do you believe that Allah would create someone and give them no chance of salvation because of what their parents did? That Islam wasn't really meant for everyone, and some people should just do whatever kufr and sin they please because it doesn't matter in the end anyway? And if you say it's because of the `alam adh-dharr, then why are some of the most wretched people born of legitimate unions? Why not have all of them born illegitimate if this what that means? And what would be the point of this life anyway then if people already would know their damned to Hell regardless of whatever they do in life because of the way they were born? Does this sound just and merciful to you?

[Abdul Qaim]

Now coming back to illegitimates they have certain qualities through which they are distinguished and ahadees are explicit about them. The illegitimates cannot love Ali a.s and other aimma a.s and it was famous among early Christians regarding hazrat isa a.s. I think they had similar texts like we have or maybe Ali a.s and Is a a.s are chosen for such a clarification.

What a lot of rot. I know Western converts to Tashayy' who were born out of wedlock and who love Imam 'Ali (as) and the Ahl al-Bayt (as). Maybe the Shayateen forgot to enter their bodies ? What you are talking about sounds more like Hindu belief than Islam...

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

What type of religion and God do you guys believe in? Would you tell the convert who wishes to accept Islam and Tashayyu`, but whose parents were unwed, don't bother, you're going to Hell anyway no matter what you do or believe, and that if you think you love the Imams then forget it, you really don't no matter you feel? Have you ever really known such people on a personal level and dealt with that? Do you believe that Allah would create someone and give them no chance of salvation because of what their parents did? That Islam wasn't really meant for everyone, and some people should just do whatever kufr and sin they please because it doesn't matter in the end anyway? And if you say it's because of the `alam adh-dharr, then why are some of the most wretched people born of legitimate unions? Why not have all of them born illegitimate if this what that means? And what would be the point of this life anyway then if people already would know their damned to Hell regardless of whatever they do in life because of the way they were born? Does this sound just and merciful to you?

You know it well that all marriages of other religions have been deemed acceptable by Islam even the incestuous marriages of zoarastrians?

There are hundreds and thousands of Sunnis who are illegitimate ones bcos their parents did not do tawaaf an nisa and there are other ones born due to sex during mensuration etc etc. There could be many born to shia families who are murderers , tax collectors for an oppressor and there are those who are born for their parents having sex during mensuration, nights of eids, night of 15th shabaan etc. Most of these will show enemity to ahlulbayth a.s even if they were born in shia families with an exception that a momin will not father a child through zinah. And the one who shows open enemity to ahlulbayth a.s may have a eunuch as a child.

Regarding converts, I have answered a few times on shiachat and elsewhere; if they love Ali a.s or they think they love Ali a.s there are indicators to it and just saying I love Ali a.s does not suffice. But I am no one to give the judgement and Allah azwj will decide about it. To the ahulbayth a.s a nasibi is worse than the illegitimate born so I am not going in to the matter.

The logic behind Allah azwj's creation is complex. Although the seven generations of an illegitimate are najis in sharia, there can be a momin born if the mother had been pure if Allah azwj wills.

These issues are complex and I don't go about calling children born to unwed parents or wed parents who got it wrong as illegitimate rather take the position that an enemy of ahlulbayth a.s and their shias to be illegitimate.

What a lot of rot. I know Western converts to Tashayy' who were born out of wedlock and who love Imam 'Ali (as) and the Ahl al-Bayt (as). Maybe the Shayateen forgot to enter their bodies ? What you are talking about sounds more like Hindu belief than Islam...

With all due respect only the end would justify the means. If they think they love ahlulbayth a.s tell them fadail of Ali a.s. You must know that there are so many laws regarding illegitimates in sharia for a reason and please read the last two lines in my reply to Mac Isaac. And I have a question to you ; if there are two sons of Satan for every one son of Adam a.s don't u think they would never accept real Islam? And you could see sons of Satan's in Pakistan, Syria, Iraq, and elsewhere terminating the sons of Adam and such are these fatherless bigots who will be called with the name of their mothers due to their impure birth.

Every word I have uttered is from ahadees of masomnen a.s so please take note of not rejecting it even if u are unable to understand it today.

[Abdul Qaim]

You know it well that all marriages of other religions have been deemed acceptable by Islam even the incestuous marriages of zoarastrians?

There are hundreds and thousands of Sunnis who are illegitimate ones bcos their parents did not do tawaaf an nisa and there are other ones born due to sex during mensuration etc etc. There could be many born to shia families who are murderers , tax collectors for an oppressor and there are those who are born for their parents having sex during mensuration, nights of eids, night of 15th shabaan etc. Most of these will show enemity to ahlulbayth a.s even if they were born in shia families with an exception that a momin will not father a child through zinah. And the one who shows open enemity to ahlulbayth a.s may have a eunuch as a child.

Regarding converts, I have answered a few times on shiachat and elsewhere; if they love Ali a.s or they think they love Ali a.s there are indicators to it and just saying I love Ali a.s does not suffice. But I am no one to give the judgement and Allah azwj will decide about it. To the ahulbayth a.s a nasibi is worse than the illegitimate born so I am not going in to the matter.

The logic behind Allah azwj's creation is complex. Although the seven generations of an illegitimate are najis in sharia, there can be a momin born if the mother had been pure if Allah azwj wills.

These issues are complex and I don't go about calling children born to unwed parents or wed parents who got it wrong as illegitimate rather take the position that an enemy of ahlulbayth a.s and their shias to be illegitimate.

With all due respect only the end would justify the means. If they think they love ahlulbayth a.s tell them fadail of Ali a.s. You must know that there are so many laws regarding illegitimates in sharia for a reason and please read the last two lines in my reply to Mac Isaac. And I have a question to you ; if there are two sons of Satan for every one son of Adam a.s don't u think they would never accept real Islam? And you could see sons of Satan's in Pakistan, Syria, Iraq, and elsewhere terminating the sons of Adam and such are these fatherless bigots who will be called with the name of their mothers due to their impure birth.

Every word I have uttered is from ahadees of masomnen a.s so please take note of not rejecting it even if u are unable to understand it today.

I am aware of the ahadeeth re: the 'aalam adh-dharr wa 'l arwah. Firstly, there have been various interpretations of said ahadeeth, as well as claims regarding their authenticity,

You do realise that if our felicity or suffering in the dunya is pre-determined according to our acceptance or lack thereof of the Walayah of the Prophet (as) and his Ahl al-Bayt (as) prior to our birth, then there is little, if any, need for free will. Our fate has already been set. Those who answered correctly to Allah's (SWT) call will reach Jannah, no matter what they do, and those who did not will be unable to attain Paradise, despite their best efforts.

There is no scope available for repentance and redemption. What's worse, we are not even able to remember the pre-existential event that has sealed our fates. The concept is eerily Hindu-like in its belief in pre-determinism.

[muhibb-ali]

There is no scope available for repentance and redemption. What's worse, we are not even able to remember the pre-existential event that has sealed our fates. The concept is eerily Hindu-like in its belief in pre-determinism.

(bismillah)

(salam)

Inshallah you are doing well.

Everything is actually pre-determined in the 'Knowledge of Allah (swt). And the very fact that we don't remember the events of Aalam-e-Zar is to ensure that Adl is proven upon the creations of Allah (swt).

The issue of illegitimate person ending up in Hell" follows on the same lines as far as I see it.

And we have many verses of the Quran and many narrations which highlight that many things that Allah (swt) says and does are based purely on his all encompassing knowledge...

Say for example the following verse:

وَلَقَدْ ذَرَأْنَا لِجَهَنَّمَ كَثِيرًا مِّنَ الْجِنِّ وَالْإِنسِ ۖ لَهُمْ قُلُوبٌ لَّا يَفْقَهُونَ بِهَا وَلَهُمْ أَعْيُنٌ لَّا يُبْصِرُونَ بِهَا وَلَهُمْ آذَانٌ لَّا يَسْمَعُونَ بِهَا ۚ أُولَٰئِكَ كَالْأَنْعَامِ بَلْ هُمْ أَضَلُّ ۚ أُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْغَافِلُونَ

"Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning)." [7:179]

I am trying to pull out a few verses and narrations which actually clarify this issues.

We should be a bit careful in coming to conclusions based on our limited understanding whereby we end up rejection/undermining what has come in verses of Quran and narrations of the Aaimmah (as).

Wassalam.

[IbnSohan]

Rabbi ishrah lee sadree Wayassir lee amree ,Waohlul AAuqdatan min lisanee , Yafqahoo qawlee

"O my Lord! grant me self-confidence, contentment, and boldness And ease my task for me; "And remove the incorrectness from my speech,That they understand my speech.

'Alam Athther is the world before the human creation. thther is referring to the state of the humans before their souls had been inflicted in their bodies. The origin of the word can mean the very small ants, it is being used in modern Arabic to refer to the atoms. The origin of the term 'alam athther is taken from the Quran.

thurriyyatahum = their children

Waith akhatha rabbuka min banee adama min thuhoorihim thurriyyatahum waashhadahum AAala anfusihim alastu birabbikum qaloo bala shahidna an taqooloo yawma alqiyamati inna kunna AAan hatha ghafileena

When your Lord brings forth from their loins the offspring of the children of Adam, He makes them witnesses over themselves, (and asks): "Am I not your Lord?" 'Indeed,' they reply. 'We bear witness,' -- lest you should say on the Day of Resurrection: "We were not aware of this;"

This is a very important verse, there are many deep meanings embedded in it. One should slow down and study this verse slowly. Akhatha, is a verb that may imply predestination. God made the germ cells ,that carry the next soul, differentiate in the back (of the body). This is usually a reference to the man rather than the woman. Man's next progeny are in his testicles that were once part of his back when he was an embryo.

Is this predestination related to the natural process of the genesis of the germ cells?

The verse goes on to tell about an event than non of us can remember, we all had to testify that there is no god but God, that God is our creator. This testimony is what we will be held account for during the day of judgement. All humans know without the need for prophets that there is a God. Though we do not remember that we had to make this testimony, but we all cannot deny that the question about creation and purpose of life occurs naturally to all the humans when they reach the puberty. This testimony is witnessed in what we call Fitrah.

Is Fitrah a predestination? If it is a predestination then is it a bad predestination that all humans know their lord?

The next question is, when was this? The verse dose not give a time, it dose not say whether it was before the creation of Adam or before the birth of any human from his father?

The hadith indicate that this happened before the creation of Adam.

The verse also have deep meanings related to Hajj, but maybe they are not suitable to be listed here.

This is what the verse and 'alam athther is about, I have not read where it says that in alam athther we were predestined to anything else beside the fitrah. Even this bit of predestination can be viewed as an act of conciousness.

There are many hadiths about the Illegitimate children and the effect of the illegitimacy on their soul. There are many hadiths that point to the importance of who to marry, when to meet your spouse and what to avoid in that meeting to avoid a bad product of that relationship. All this cannot be denied but I have not read yet a proper study of these hadiths, how can they be understood or implemented in our days, more importantly, how they were viewed in the times of Islam expansion where many were products of illegal relationships. I think we should not rash to conclude some predestination (jabr) belief and attach it to our Imams, I think that is very unfair to our Imams, our religion and our God.

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

^^there is no jabr in it astaghfarullah . Doesn't Allah azwj know who is in Hell? The one who is a momin all his life but gets expelled before death? This is definitely a complex subject but I do not understand the sympathy for illegitimates ? Inshallah I will present ahadees on this subject later on.

[IbnSohan]

^^there is no jabr in it astaghfarullah . Doesn't Allah azwj know who is in Hell? The one who is a momin all his life but gets expelled before death? This is definitely a complex subject but I do not understand the sympathy for illegitimates ? Inshallah I will present ahadees on this subject later on.

1-Because it isn't his fault

2-Because it isn't his choice (the illegitimate relationship and to be a child born after an illegitimate relationship)

There are other problems that faces the mo'min while reading these hadiths that contradicts his own belief

1-This negates the concept of choice

2- It negates the belief that Islam is for everyone

3- It negates the need for da'wah for Islam

4- It dose not help to understand the point of the Primary Jihad if all those non Muslims will not be able to accept welayah

5- It contradicts the belief that Allah dose not create evil (kufr) { hard to explain this point}

6-It negates the belief in Allah mercy. If the father and mother who had committed that sin can still ask Allah for mercy, why would their children carry the burden of their parents.

7-It is similar to the Christian belief in the original sin in a way and similar to the Jews religion that religion is by blood, you should be born into Shia family to become proper full complete pure Shia.

I am not denying the hadiths, I am just saying that your intended explanaion should keep in minds all these traps and avoid fulling in any of them.

[muhibb-ali]

^

(bismillah)

(salam)

All the above queries get answered if you look at it from the following perspective:

1) Allah (swt) with his all encompassing knowledge knows before hand as to who will end up in Hell because of HIS OWN actions and hence Allah (swt) can make sure that such people are made to be born illegitimate. So this is actually just a prophecy bound to come true.

2) This is very similar to any thing of the future that is informed by Allah (swt). Say for example Allah (swt) says that person X will commit a major sin after 10 days. Now this does not mean that person X does not have any free will at all and he will end up committing the sin. But what it means is that Allah (swt) has with his knowledge informed what person X would do with his own free will.

There is no contradiction here with Adl.

Was salam

Edited April 10, 2013 by muhibb-ali

[IbnSohan]

الكليني‌ّ بسند صحيح‌، عن‌ عِدَّة‌ مِن‌ أصحابنا، عن‌ أحمد بن‌ محمّد البرقي‌ّ، عن‌ إسماعيل‌ بن‌ مهران‌، عن‌ أبي‌ سعيد القَمَّاط‌، عن‌ الحلبي‌ّ، عن‌ أبي‌ عبد الله‌ الصادق‌ علیه السلام‌ قال

‌:

قَالَ أَمِيرُ المُؤْمِنِينَ عَلَیهِ السَّلاَمُ: أَلاَ أُخْبِرُكُمْ بِالفَقِيهِ حَقَّ الفَقِيهِ؟!

مَنْ لَمْ يُقَنِّطِ النَّاسَ مِنْ رَحْمَةِ اللَهِ

، وَلَمْ يُؤْمِنْهُمْ مِنْ عَذَابِ اللَهِ، وَلَمْ يُرَخِّصْ لَهُمْ فِي‌ مَعَاصِي‌ اللَهِ، وَلَمْ يَتْرُكِ القُرْآنَ رَغْبَةً عَنْهُ إلَی غَيْرِهِ. أَلاَ لاَخَيْرَ فِي‌ عِلْمٍ لَيْسَ فِيهِ تَفَهُّمٌ؛ أَلاَ لاَ خَيْرَ فِي‌ قِرَاءَةٍ لَيْسَ فِيهَا تَدَبُّرٌ؛ أَلاَ لاَخَيْرَ فِي‌ عِبَادَةٍ لَيْسَ فِيهَا تَفَكُّرٌ!

Brother, what do you make of this verse

إِنَّ اللَّـهَ فَالِقُ الْحَبِّ وَالنَّوَىٰ ۖ يُخْرِ‌جُ الْحَيَّ مِنَ الْمَيِّتِ وَمُخْرِ‌جُ الْمَيِّتِ مِنَ الْحَيِّ ۚ ذَٰلِكُمُ اللَّـهُ ۖ فَأَنَّىٰ تُؤْفَكُونَ

Indeed, Allah is the cleaver of grain and date seeds. He brings the living out of the dead and brings the dead out of the living. That is Allah; so how are you deluded

The hadiths of Ahlulbayt explained the dead in this verse that he is the kafir, and the living is the mo'min

what do you make of this verse:

يَمْحُو اللَّـهُ مَا يَشَاءُ وَيُثْبِتُ ۖ وَعِندَهُ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ

Allah eliminates what He wills or confirms, and with Him is the Mother of the Book.

What do you make of this verse

وَآخَرُ‌ونَ مُرْ‌جَوْنَ لِأَمْرِ‌ اللَّـهِ إِمَّا يُعَذِّبُهُمْ وَإِمَّا يَتُوبُ عَلَيْهِمْ ۗ وَاللَّـهُ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ

And [there are] others deferred until the command of Allah - whether He will punish them or whether He will forgive them. And Allah is Knowing and Wise.

[bored]

عنه، عن أبيه أبي عبد الله البرقي، عن ابن فضال، عن عبد الله بن بكير، عن زرارة قال: سمعت أبا جعفر عليه السلام يقول: لا خير في ولد الزنا ولا في بشره ولا شعره ولا في لحمه ولا في دمه ولا في شئ منه (يعنى ولد الزنا). وفي رواية أبي خديجة، عن أبي - عبد الله عليه السلام، قال: ان كان أحد من أولاد الزنا نجا لنجا سائح بني اسرائيل، فقيل له: وما سائح بنى اسرائيل؟ - قال: كان عابدا، فقيل له: ان ولد الزنا لا يطيب أبدا ولا يقبل الله منه عملا، قال: فخرج يسيح بين الجبال ويقول: ما ذنبي؟

In Al-Barqi's Mahasin and Al-Saduq's Iqab al-Amal:

Imam Baqir said: "There is no good in the walad zina, not in his skin, his hair, his flesh, his blood, or anything from him."

And it is narrated by Abi Khadijah from Imam Sadiq who said:

"There was once a son of zina from Bani Israel who was a wanderer, and it was thought he was an ascetic." It was said to him, "The walad zina can never be purified, and Allah does not accept his actions." So, he went running to the mountains, and cried, "What was my sin?"

A bit harsh and irrational.

[muhibb-ali]

All off the above at generic verses and what we are discussing here is a specific case and there need not be any relation between them.

[Abdul Qaim]

عنه، عن أبيه أبي عبد الله البرقي، عن ابن فضال، عن عبد الله بن بكير، عن زرارة قال: سمعت أبا جعفر عليه السلام يقول: لا خير في ولد الزنا ولا في بشره ولا شعره ولا في لحمه ولا في دمه ولا في شئ منه (يعنى ولد الزنا). وفي رواية أبي خديجة، عن أبي - عبد الله عليه السلام، قال: ان كان أحد من أولاد الزنا نجا لنجا سائح بني اسرائيل، فقيل له: وما سائح بنى اسرائيل؟ - قال: كان عابدا، فقيل له: ان ولد الزنا لا يطيب أبدا ولا يقبل الله منه عملا، قال: فخرج يسيح بين الجبال ويقول: ما ذنبي؟

In Al-Barqi's Mahasin and Al-Saduq's Iqab al-Amal:

Imam Baqir said: "There is no good in the walad zina, not in his skin, his hair, his flesh, his blood, or anything from him."

And it is narrated by Abi Khadijah from Imam Sadiq who said:

"There was once a son of zina from Bani Israel who was a wanderer, and it was thought he was an ascetic." It was said to him, "The walad zina can never be purified, and Allah does not accept his actions." So, he went running to the mountains, and cried, "What was my sin?"

A bit harsh and irrational.

Apparently Allah (SWT) may forgive the son's parents for their act of adultery, but the child is hellbound, Supposedly there's 'adalat in that.,,

Edited April 11, 2013 by Abdul Qaim

[bored]

Apparently Allah (SWT) may forgive the son's parents for their act of adultery, but the child is hellbound, Supposedly there's 'adalat in that.,,

Ibn Abbas said that too. The notion that the walad zina was hell-bound was an early concept in Islamic societies, that was refuted by this logic.

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

الكليني‌ّ بسند صحيح‌، عن‌ عِدَّة‌ مِن‌ أصحابنا، عن‌ أحمد بن‌ محمّد البرقي‌ّ، عن‌ إسماعيل‌ بن‌ مهران‌، عن‌ أبي‌ سعيد القَمَّاط‌، عن‌ الحلبي‌ّ، عن‌ أبي‌ عبد الله‌ الصادق‌ علیه السلام‌ قال

‌:

قَالَ أَمِيرُ المُؤْمِنِينَ عَلَیهِ السَّلاَمُ: أَلاَ أُخْبِرُكُمْ بِالفَقِيهِ حَقَّ الفَقِيهِ؟!

مَنْ لَمْ يُقَنِّطِ النَّاسَ مِنْ رَحْمَةِ اللَهِ

، وَلَمْ يُؤْمِنْهُمْ مِنْ عَذَابِ اللَهِ، وَلَمْ يُرَخِّصْ لَهُمْ فِي‌ مَعَاصِي‌ اللَهِ، وَلَمْ يَتْرُكِ القُرْآنَ رَغْبَةً عَنْهُ إلَی غَيْرِهِ. أَلاَ لاَخَيْرَ فِي‌ عِلْمٍ لَيْسَ فِيهِ تَفَهُّمٌ؛ أَلاَ لاَ خَيْرَ فِي‌ قِرَاءَةٍ لَيْسَ فِيهَا تَدَبُّرٌ؛ أَلاَ لاَخَيْرَ فِي‌ عِبَادَةٍ لَيْسَ فِيهَا تَفَكُّرٌ!

Brother, what do you make of this verse

إِنَّ اللَّـهَ فَالِقُ الْحَبِّ وَالنَّوَىٰ ۖ يُخْرِ‌جُ الْحَيَّ مِنَ الْمَيِّتِ وَمُخْرِ‌جُ الْمَيِّتِ مِنَ الْحَيِّ ۚ ذَٰلِكُمُ اللَّـهُ ۖ فَأَنَّىٰ تُؤْفَكُونَ

Indeed, Allah is the cleaver of grain and date seeds. He brings the living out of the dead and brings the dead out of the living. That is Allah; so how are you deluded

The hadiths of Ahlulbayt explained the dead in this verse that he is the kafir, and the living is the mo'min

what do you make of this verse:

يَمْحُو اللَّـهُ مَا يَشَاءُ وَيُثْبِتُ ۖ وَعِندَهُ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ

Allah eliminates what He wills or confirms, and with Him is the Mother of the Book.

What do you make of this verse

وَآخَرُ‌ونَ مُرْ‌جَوْنَ لِأَمْرِ‌ اللَّـهِ إِمَّا يُعَذِّبُهُمْ وَإِمَّا يَتُوبُ عَلَيْهِمْ ۗ وَاللَّـهُ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ

And [there are] others deferred until the command of Allah - whether He will punish them or whether He will forgive them. And Allah is Knowing and Wise.

. We are only talking about the status of walad uz zina and not about he may or may not have momin children.

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

Apparently Allah (SWT) may forgive the son's parents for their act of adultery, but the child is hellbound, Supposedly there's 'adalat in that.,,

Who told you that a Momin can father a walad uz zina? Ahadees suggest that Momin will not father a child with zinah but he might commit zinah and his repentance can be accepted.

[Abdul Qaim]

Who told you that a Momin can father a walad uz zina? Ahadees suggest that Momin will not father a child with zinah but he might commit zinah and his repentance can be accepted.

So a Mu'min's sperm cannot impregnate the woman he is doing zina with? How convenient !!! There is no justice in a child of zina being damned, and you can jump through as many logical hoops as you like but you will never prove otherwise. The parents have committed the sin, and if anyone deserves Jahannam, it is they.

Btw, if the product of zina is damned and Allah does not accept his good actions, then there is no need for him to pray or fast, since those acts are useless...

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

So a Mu'min's sperm cannot impregnate the woman he is doing zina with? How convenient !!! There is no justice in a child of zina being damned, and you can jump through as many logical hoops as you like but you will never prove otherwise. The parents have committed the sin, and if anyone deserves Jahannam, it is they.

Btw, if the product of zina is damned and Allah does not accept his good actions, then there is no need for him to pray or fast, since those acts are useless...

So is the state of a nasibi, gay, enemy of ahlulbayth a.s, killer of ahlulbayth a.s, one who kils a momin due to his emaan, other than muslims who do good deeds, wherein their good acts are rewarded in this world and they do not get a share of hereafter. The mustadhafeen and the people to whom the message wasn't reached (if there are any) are bound to Allah azwj's mercy. I don't know why we are stuck with the advocacy of illegitimates? If you want to believe that this is against adl then I can't stop you. And the parents of an illegitimate who committed adultery are not Momin so I it depends where they fit in the few categories I mentioned above. If you have some kind of a proof to support your claim then I am always ready to accept it. I am only acting upon what I know.

[guest 34193]

So is the state of a nasibi, gay, enemy of ahlulbayth a.s, killer of ahlulbayth a.s, one who kils a momin due to his emaan, other than muslims who do good deeds, wherein their good acts are rewarded in this world and they do not get a share of hereafter. The mustadhafeen and the people to whom the message wasn't reached (if there are any) are bound to Allah azwj's mercy. I don't know why we are stuck with the advocacy of illegitimates? If you want to believe that this is against adl then I can't stop you. And the parents of an illegitimate who committed adultery are not Momin so I it depends where they fit in the few categories I mentioned above. If you have some kind of a proof to support your claim then I am always ready to accept it. I am only acting upon what I know.

So what would you say to the person who comes to you, says I want to accept Islam and moreover I want to be a Shi`a as I have learned about the Ahl al-Bayt (as) and love them, but it so happens that said person's parents weren't married when he was conceived? Would you tell him not to bother converting because no matter what he does or feels, he's going to Hell? Is that `adl to you? And if you think such a thing could never happen, you're woefully mistaken.

[Abbas.]

This is how it's supposed to be:

Love Ahl-ul-bayt after learning and realising their status = Certificate of legitimacy of ones birth and character i-e Halali.

This is how many of us, unfortunately, see it:

He/She was born out of wedlock = illegitimate child (harami) + confirmation that his gene's are just not programmed to love Ahl-ul-bayt.