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In the Name of God بسم الله

Prophets Not Masumeen?

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I'm just asking because in some stories of prophets, they do tend to do mistakes.

No they never made mistakes or sinned. If you believe otherwise, check out the argument on Al-Islam.org then post your opinion.

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No they never made mistakes or sinned. If you believe otherwise, check out the argument on Al-Islam.org then post your opinion.

If that is true then why did Prophet Yunus (as) leave his home city when he gave up. His heart was full of despair he went out to the sea where he was eaten by a whale by Allah's command. The stomach acids of the whale burnt the prophet's skin badly and everytime he touched the sunlight after God accepted his repentance and let the whale release him. So you see how can prophets be Masumeen?

Edited by mo7arbelmahdi
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No they never made mistakes or sinned. If you believe otherwise, check out the argument on Al-Islam.org then pos your opinion.

They did make mistakes in that they chose the lesser of the two options available to them - we call it Tark-e-Aula. But, making mistakes does not mean that they are not Ma'soom because Ismah is to do with sins and the never sinned.

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some of them have made mistakes but these mistakes are not sins!

for example prophet Moses has done manslaughter unintentionaly or prophet josef has forgotten God when he was asking his friend in prison who was released to help him being released from prison too.

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some of them have made mistakes but these mistakes are not sins!

for example prophet Moses has done manslaughter unintentionaly or prophet josef has forgotten God when he was asking his friend in prison who was released to help him being released from prison too.

Salaam za.s,

Prophet Joseph did not commit any mistake by doing this. There is nothing wrong in asking someone other than Allah for help.

Khz

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They did make mistakes in that they chose the lesser of the two options available to them - we call it Tark-e-Aula. But, making mistakes does not mean that they are not Ma'soom because Ismah is to do with sins and the never sinned.

some of them have made mistakes but these mistakes are not sins!

for example prophet Moses has done manslaughter unintentionaly or prophet josef has forgotten God when he was asking his friend in prison who was released to help him being released from prison too.

im sorry but i have to disagree. Allah cannot represent his religion in the hands of sinless but erred men. Its illogical because that err gives the path to more errs on the road which can nullify infallibility. Some scholars use Turk as a cause of looking at a different way I disagree. For example, Moses killing a man wasnt a mistake. When some attacks you or your friends and family and you end up killing them, that isnt a mistake, its self defence. You dont know what can happen, as in moses case, that man went to kill moses friend. Another example, if one prophet can make a mistake who says the others cant? For example, especially those who received books. They could have made a mistake, in their communication with the angels. You see, it goes into a loop, as in I will keep asking "how do you know he didnt, since he made a mistake before". Therefore, the only way for Allah's religion to stay perfect is that they must be err and sinless. Thats full infallibility to its effect.

15:39

He said: My Lord, Because You has sent me astray, verily I shall adorn the path of error for them on the earth, and shall deceive them all.

15:40

Except those of them who are Your perfectly devoted Servants.

O you who believe! why do you say that which you do not act? It is most hateful in the sight of Allah that you say that which you do not act. (61:2-3)

Edited by pureethics
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answer to ali 94

salam,

in ayah 42 of josef surah is written: on that moment satan has made him to forget god and because of that was in prison for several years later.

That wasnt yousuf, that was one of the polytheists, yusuf asked him to tell the guy to tell the king to release yusuf but the guy forgot, so yusuf stayed in prison.

Shakir 12:41] O my two mates of the prison! as for one of you, he shall give his lord to drink wine; and as for the other, he shall be crucified, so that the birds shall eat from his head, the matter is decreed concerning which you inquired.

[Pickthal 12:41] O my two fellow-prisoners! As for one of you, he will pour out wine for his lord to drink; and as for the other, he will be crucified so that the birds will eat from his head. Thus is the case judged concerning which ye did inquire.

[Yusufali 12:41] "O my two companions of the prison! As to one of you, he will pour out the wine for his lord to drink: as for the other, he will hang from the cross, and the birds will eat from off his head. (so) hath been decreed that matter whereof ye twain do enquire"...

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 12:41] (see commentary for verse 3)

[The word sahibi (my companion) has been used by Yusuf to address the two fellow-prisoners who were polytheists. Likewise it is not necessary that all the companions of the Holy Prophet were sincere believers. Many of them were hypocrites.]

Then Yusuf told them that the cup-bearer would again serve wine to Firawn, while the cook will be crucified and the birds would peck at his brain. He asked the cup-bearer to mention him to his master, but Shaytan made him forget to mention this to his master, and Yusuf remained in prison for a few more years. One day the king told his courtiers that he saw in a dream seven fat cows being devoured by seven lean ones, and seven green ears of corns and seven others that were withered. None of the courtiers knew how to interpret dreams. The cup-bearer told Firawn that he would give him its interpretation and went to see Yusuf in prison. He asked him to tell him the meaning of the dream.

[Shakir 12:42] And he said to him whom he knew would be delivered of the two: Remember me with your lord; but the Shaitan caused him to forget mentioning (it) to his lord, so he remained in the prison a few years.

[Pickthal 12:42] And he said unto him of the twain who he knew would be released: Mention me in the presence of thy lord. But Satan caused him to forget to mention it to his lord, so he (Joseph) stayed in prison for some years.

[Yusufali 12:42] And of the two, to that one whom he consider about to be saved, he said: "Mention me to thy lord." But Satan made him forget to mention him to his lord: and (Joseph) lingered in prison a few (more) years.

Edited by pureethics
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im sorry but i have to disagree. Allah cannot represent his religion in the hands of sinless but erred men. Its illogical because that err gives the path to more errs on the road which can nullify infallibility. Some scholars use Turk as a cause of looking at a different way I disagree. For example, Moses killing a man wasnt a mistake. When some attacks you or your friends and family and you end up killing them, that isnt a mistake, its self defence. You dont know what can happen, as in moses case, that man went to kill moses friend. Another example, if one prophet can make a mistake who says the others cant? For example, especially those who received books. They could have made a mistake, in their communication with the angels. You see, it goes into a loop, as in I will keep asking "how do you know he didnt, since he made a mistake before". Therefore, the only way for Allah's religion to stay perfect is that they must be err and sinless. Thats full infallibility to its effect.

15:39

He said: My Lord, Because You has sent me astray, verily I shall adorn the path of error for them on the earth, and shall deceive them all.

15:40

Except those of them who are Your perfectly devoted Servants.

O you who believe! why do you say that which you do not act? It is most hateful in the sight of Allah that you say that which you do not act. (61:2-3)

Well, when you have two options and you chose the less good one, you might call it a mistake or you might not but that's what happened. So, you could donate a million or a hundred. Is donating a hundred a sin or a mistake? No. That is what is meant by Tark-e-Aula and that is what I said they did.

Moreover, what about cases like Prophet Yunus (peace be upon him) who went the other way? It wasn't a sin but God certainly corrected him.

Edited by Khadim uz Zahra
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Well, when you have two options and you chose the less good one, you might call it a mistake or you might not but that's what happened. So, you could donate a million or a hundred. Is donating a hundred a sin or a mistake? No. That is what is meant by Tark-e-Aula and that is what I said they did.

So your saying they didnt make mistakes?

What you said earlier is that they did..."They did make mistakes in that they chose the lesser of the two options available to them"

Donating a hundred or a million isnt relevant, whats relevant is "DONATING", so there is no mistakes in that.

Edit: Here is an example of Tark

As far as possible, respect your parents. Treat them nicely because the Holy Quran and traditions have laid great emphasis on it. Don’t be lax or lazy in this duty. Hazrat Imam Jafar-e-Sadiq (a.s) has said : When Hazrat Yaqub (a.s.) came to Hazrat Yusuf (a.s.), he (Hazrat Yusuf (a.s.) did not get down from mount to welcome Hazrat Yaqub (a.s). The result of this ‘Tark-e-Awla’ was that Hazrat Jibraeel came down and extracted one ‘Noor’ from the palm of Hazrat Yusuf (a.s.). Hazrat Yusuf (a.s.) asked ‘What is this?’ The reply he got was ‘Now there will be no prophethood in your progeny because you did not welcome your father properly. Therefore, Allah has finished the continuity of prophethood from your progeny.)(Mazmaul Bayan - 5, p. 254)

That isnt a mistake...

Here is another:

Prophet Adam (as), did nothing more than a tark‑e‑Awla (not performing something that was better, rather performing something good' in its place), but since he was one of the `chosen' people and this tark-e-­Awla was not appropriate for one with such a holy spirit

Here is another:

Prophet Yusuf (as) did not commit a sin, since he was immune from committing sins (ma`sum), but it was this tark‑e‑Awla that he performed which was not befitting for one at his status, and thus he was forced to spend an ten extra years in prison.

I see what your saying, but i wouldnt call it a mistake. A mistake is making the wrong choice. Adam didnt make the wrong, he just made the less right choice. Same for yousuf, asking help from people isnt a mistake, its allowed, but for a prophet he should have asked Allah.

Edited by pureethics
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Ok, satan has made the guy to forget, but in that case josef has done tark e oola, and in page 359 of volum 5 of majmaolbayan is a hadith of prophet muhammad pbu : if josef has not ask that guy, he wouldnt be in prison for that several years.

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That is exactly what I said, "in that they chose the lesser of the two options". Now, I called it a mistake. You choose not to. That's fine with me. People interpret things differently and I don't mind that.

Saying he/ or any prophet made a mistake is dangerous as your whole religion can fall apart...

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Wow, a bit of a quarell i see, but i get it though thank you. i now know what tark-al-awla means and it has cleared this in my head. Its hard being a prophet, for chosing a lesser good than a greater good is punishable. Kind of sad the Yousef doesn't get to have his sons inherit prophethood, but he was still the prettiest man ever created :shifty: . Jazakom Allah all of you. Peace brothers

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If that is true then why did Prophet Yunus (as) leave his home city when he gave up. His heart was full of despair he went out to the sea where he was eaten by a whale by Allah's command. The stomach acids of the whale burnt the prophet's skin badly and everytime he touched the sunlight after God accepted his repentance and let the whale release him. So you see how can prophets be Masumeen?

This is accurate (y) The other day in discussion it was revealed that the Prophets (P.B.U.T) were not Masoom, they COULD make mistakes but since they were Messengers of Allah (S.W.T) they never did (they acted solely upon the instructions which were given to them).

They were made of Clay, bled, felt emotion, hunger, thirst... so naturally, they had the ability to make mistakes, but clarified --- They never did.

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This is accurate (y) The other day in discussion it was revealed that the Prophets (P.B.U.T) were not Masoom, they COULD make mistakes but since they were Messengers of Allah (S.W.T) they never did (they acted solely upon the instructions which were given to them).

They were made of Clay, bled, felt emotion, hunger, thirst... so naturally, they had the ability to make mistakes, but clarified --- They never did.

Thats the whole point...them not making mistakes make them masoom...

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I said this because Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.H.) and Imams (A.S.) are higher in status than all other Prophets (A.S.) so They are better in qualities also, and I heard in a majlis, I hope I can say it in right words, any person who is best in some quality, Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.H.) and Imams (A.S.) are 27 times better than that person in that quality.

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So we need help :/ obviously we aren't gonna get anywhere with this. We can all agree that normal prophets can make mistakes. But prophet Mohammad (pbuh) and the imams (as) are of higher rank and thus of amazing character. We ask God to give us the answer to this question. Anyone knows any hadiths that could be useful or IF they know a shaykh or something. I hate when topics start irritating me like this. I want to remove the slightest possibility of doubt.

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So we need help :/ obviously we aren't gonna get anywhere with this. We can all agree that normal prophets can make mistakes. But prophet Mohammad (pbuh) and the imams (as) are of higher rank and thus of amazing character. We ask God to give us the answer to this question. Anyone knows any hadiths that could be useful or IF they know a shaykh or something. I hate when topics start irritating me like this. I want to remove the slightest possibility of doubt.

dude prophets are prophets, they cant make mistakes! Turk concept isnt a mistake, it just choosing the less "right" choice. If they chose the "wrong" choice then it would be a mistake.

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You people are confusing, everyone wants their opinion to be the right one. Why are you all so sure of yourselves?! Go check and so will I and we'll see.

please try, if you can break my logic used in my previous post, then im wrong, simple...

im sorry but i have to disagree. Allah cannot represent his religion in the hands of sinless but erred men. Its illogical because that err gives the path to more errs on the road which can nullify infallibility. Some scholars use Turk as a cause of looking at a different way I disagree. For example, Moses killing a man wasnt a mistake. When some attacks you or your friends and family and you end up killing them, that isnt a mistake, its self defence. You dont know what can happen, as in moses case, that man went to kill moses friend. Another example, if one prophet can make a mistake who says the others cant? For example, especially those who received books. They could have made a mistake, in their communication with the angels. You see, it goes into a loop, as in I will keep asking "how do you know he didnt, since he made a mistake before". Therefore, the only way for Allah's religion to stay perfect is that they must be err and sinless. Thats full infallibility to its effect.

15:39

He said: My Lord, Because You has sent me astray, verily I shall adorn the path of error for them on the earth, and shall deceive them all.

15:40

Except those of them who are Your perfectly devoted Servants.

O you who believe! why do you say that which you do not act? It is most hateful in the sight of Allah that you say that which you do not act. (61:2-3)

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But why would God thus allow the prophets to make mistakes? If thats so i can go kill a man and say that God (swt) can justify this. Maybe the guy was a thief and i killed him before he stole a bank? You can't judge a person on a sin that he will do. You must judge them on what they have done. And in any case prophet Yunus (as) didn't know if what he chose to do was for a future good and that is why God punished him. HE DID SOMETHING WRONG and by God (swt) punishing him for that he shows us that Yunus (as) made a mistake. Your logic is thus proved wrong and can't be logic. And just so you know Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) was the highest ranking prophet of all time, ofc he must be sinless and without error. But we are talking about other prophets.

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But why would God thus allow the prophets to make mistakes? If thats so i can go kill a man and say that God (swt) can justify this. Maybe the guy was a thief and i killed him before he stole a bank? You can't judge a person on a sin that he will do. You must judge them on what they have done. And in any case prophet Yunus (as) didn't know if what he chose to do was for a future good and that is why God punished him. HE DID SOMETHING WRONG and by God (swt) punishing him for that he shows us that Yunus (as) made a mistake. Your logic is thus proved wrong and can't be logic. And just so you know Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) was the highest ranking prophet of all time, ofc he must be sinless and without error. But we are talking about other prophets.

huh? Please explain your logic cause i didnt understand one bit. Also reiterate on what Prophet Yunus did and based on what evidence please.

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I said this because Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.H.) and Imams (A.S.) are higher in status than all other Prophets (A.S.) so They are better in qualities also, and I heard in a majlis, I hope I can say it in right words, any person who is best in some quality, Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.H.) and Imams (A.S.) are 27 times better than that person in that quality.

The imams are higher than other prophets (as)? Tell me how that works.

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The imams are higher than other prophets (as)? Tell me how that works.

Simple imams were sent for mankind while prophets were sent to each community. Their status is higher. Also prophets bring a message, while imams protect it. Prophets were sent when the religion wasnt in full effect, imams were sent after prophethood.

"And when Abraham was tested by his Lord with certain commands and he

fulfilled them. Then He said: Lo! I appoint you an Imam for mankind."

(Quran 2:124).

If imams status was lower than why did Allah make a prophet an imam and not the other way around?

Edited by pureethics
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I didn't know shias believed their imams were on the same level as prophets (as) or even higher that's something new to me. Thanks.

did you know within prophets there are prophets higher in status? Did you also know Muhammad A.S is higher in status than all imams?

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I didn't know shias believed their imams were on the same level as prophets (as) or even higher that's something new to me. Thanks.

There's no consensus on the issue. Although, most Shi'ah believe the Imams [as] have a higher status than all prophets, except Muhammad [sawa]. Shaykh al-Mufid states here in Awa'il al-Maqalat:

قد قطع قوم من أهل الإمامة بفضل الأئمة (عليه السلام) من آل محمد (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) على سائر من تقدم من الرسل و الأنبياء سوى نبينا محمد (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) و أوجب فريق منهم لهم الفضل على جميع الأنبياء سوى أولي العزم منهم (عليه السلام) و أبى القولين فريق منهم آخر و قطعوا بفضل الأنبياء كلهم على سائر الأئمة (عليه السلام) وهذا باب ليس للعقول في إيجابه و المنع منه مجال و لا على أحد الأقوال فيه إجماع و قد جاءت آثار عن النبي (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) في أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) و ذريته من الأئمة و الأخبار عن الأئمة الصادقين أيضا من بعد و في القرآن مواضع تقوي العزم على ما قاله الفريق الأول في هذا المعنى و أنا ناظر فيه و بالله أعتصم من الضلال .

A group from the people of Imamate has affirmed the superiority of the Imams عليهم السلام from the Family of Muhammad صلى الله عليه و آله over the entirety of whoever preceded from the messengers and the prophets – save for our prophet, Muhammad صلى الله عليه و آله. And a group from them has obligated superiority for them over all of the prophets save for the Ulu ‘l-`Azhm from them عليهم السلام (Nuh, Ibrahim, Musa, `Isa and Muhammad عليهم السلام). And another group from them has refused either of the two doctrines, and affirmed the superiority of all of the prophets over the entirety of the Imams عليهم السلام.

Regarding this chapter, the intellects have neither an affirmation for it nor a barring from it in scope, and there is no consensus (ijma`) regarding any one of the doctrines. Traditions have come from the Prophet صلى الله عليه و آله regarding Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام and his offspring from the Imams, and also reports from the Truthful Imams afterwards, and places in the Quran which strengthens resolution upon what the first group has said in this meaning, and I am considering it. And by Allah I find refuge from misguidance.

- http://archive.tasha...alat/chapter-46

(wasalam)

Edited by Ibn al-Hassan
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What i'm saying is that when you said the story about moses i agree that it wasn't wrong, but you chose the wrong example. The topic began with prophet yunus. He live in his home town and tried to convince the people about God and his message. They didn't believe him and kept ignoring him. He then los hope after a period of time preaching and got on a boat to travel elsewhere without God's permission. God then made the sky red and sxared the people of the town whom prophet Yunus had left. They got scared and begged God for forgiveness. At that time Yunus was on a boat when a sea storm struck the ship he was on. They had to get rid of people as was the custom of that time so the ship wouldnt sink. The captain wrote everyones name on papers and randomly picked through the papers. Yunus' name was the chosen name to be thrown off the boat, but they all thought prophet Yunus was too respected so they made another pick and Yunus' name came again. They made yet another pick and Yunus' name was chosen by god's will. They threw him aboard when a whale swallowed him. God punished him by making the whale swallow him into his stomach and the acids in the stomach burnt Yunus. Yunus asked for repentance and God accepted it so the whale released him. The sun burned his skin because he was hurt by the acid so God grew trees to shade the prophet. After he healed he went back to his community and they welcomed him. Thats the story. Now this story completely proves that prophets can make mistakes.

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