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In the Name of God بسم الله

Prophets Not Masumeen?

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Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) --> As Sadiq & Al Amin (The Tuthful & The Trustworthy)

22:00 minutes into the lecture.

Herein you will also get the answer that the last Messenger of Allah (SWT) was "spotless" in character from the time he was born and was one who brought justice for the Arabs.

So, he was rightly guided and most definitely sinless like the Imams (P.B.U.T)

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What i'm saying is that when you said the story about moses i agree that it wasn't wrong, but you chose the wrong example. The topic began with prophet yunus. He live in his home town and tried to convince the people about God and his message. They didn't believe him and kept ignoring him. He then los hope after a period of time preaching and got on a boat to travel elsewhere without God's permission. God then made the sky red and sxared the people of the town whom prophet Yunus had left. They got scared and begged God for forgiveness. At that time Yunus was on a boat when a sea storm struck the ship he was on. They had to get rid of people as was the custom of that time so the ship wouldnt sink. The captain wrote everyones name on papers and randomly picked through the papers. Yunus' name was the chosen name to be thrown off the boat, but they all thought prophet Yunus was too respected so they made another pick and Yunus' name came again. They made yet another pick and Yunus' name was chosen by god's will. They threw him aboard when a whale swallowed him. God punished him by making the whale swallow him into his stomach and the acids in the stomach burnt Yunus. Yunus asked for repentance and God accepted it so the whale released him. The sun burned his skin because he was hurt by the acid so God grew trees to shade the prophet. After he healed he went back to his community and they welcomed him. Thats the story. Now this story completely proves that prophets can make mistakes.

Thank You for this story, but im sorry, I cannot except this, I dont even know where you got this from. Is this an even Valid source?

But here let me post you something very clear, since you dont seem to understand:

Chapter 21 (al-Anbiya') verses 87-88:

And (remember) Yْnus, when he went away in anger; and he thought that We would never have power over him (naqdira). Then he called in the darkness [of night, sea, and fish]: “There is no god but You, glory be to Thee; surely I am one of the unjust (¨alimeen).

So We responded to him and delivered him from the grief, and thus do We deliver the believers.

The common translation of the words naqdira and ¨alimeen make these two verses incompatible with the concept of 'ismah.

1. The first question against 'ismah in this passage is about the action of Prophet Yْnus: he left his people when the punishment subsided without him knowing about it. Was Yْnus angry at Allah?

The most that this verse says is that Yْnus went away in anger; it does not say that he was angry with Allah. So we have no choice but to interpret this verse by saying that Yْnus left the people while he was angry with them for not believing him.

2. The second question is about the sentence: “He thought that We would never have power (naqdira) over him.” Some people have taken the word naqdira in the meaning of “having power,” thus imply that Yْnus went away in anger thinking that God “would never have power over him”.

Firstly, if this meaning is to be taken seriously, then Yْnus would become a kafir, an unbeliever!

Secondly, the word naqdira (which is from qadr) has been used many times in the Qur'an for “restricting of the provision” by Allah. For example, in chapter 13, verse 26, Allah says, “Allah expands and straitens (yaqdiru) the provision for whomsoever He pleases.” Or, for instance, in chapter 89, verses 15-16, Allah says: “As for man: when his Lord tries him by treating him with honour and giving him an easy life, he says 'My Lords honours me.' But when He tries him by straitening (qadara) his provision for him he says, 'My Lord has disgraced me.'”

In conclusion, we can say that the first sentence of the passage under discussion means: And (remember) Yْnus, when he went away in anger; and he thought that We would never straiten [the provision] over him.” This, at most, means that Yْnus thought that because he was God's prophet, his Lord would never straiten his provision for him; he had taken Allah's provision for granted. It has nothing to do with issue of Allah having no power over him.

3. If Yْnus had committed no sin by leaving his people, then why did he say that, “surely I am one of the ¨alimeen, the unjust”?

As mentioned earlier in the case of Prophet Adam (a.s.), the word ¨ulm does not necessarily imply “injustice” and “sin”. It also means “to make haste” and “to come to harm”. Any of these two meanings are compatible with the concept of 'ismah and also correct in the case of Prophet Yْnus.

The verse would then mean as follows: “There is no god but You, glory be to Thee; surely I am one of those who make haste” or “There is no god but You, glory be to Thee; surely I am one of those who come to harm”.

This explanation is further supported by the next verse in which Allah says, “So We responded to him and delivered him from the grief, and thus do We deliver the believers.” The ¨ulm mentioned in the prayer of Yْnus is explained by Allah as ”al-ghamm—grief”, and not as sin or injustice; that is why Allah said ”najjayna—delivered” and not “forgiven”.

"The case of Prophet Yunus (Jonah) is similar. The Quran says, “And remember, when he went off in anger, and he imagined that We would not confine him. But he cried through the darkness, saying, 'There is no Lord except You. Glory be to You! Surely, I have been one of those who did injustice to their own souls.'”[97] In this case, Prophet Yunus meant that he had been wrong to himself, but wrongdoing one's self is neither a sin nor a mistake. His “wrongdoing to himself” was being impatient with his followers and fleeing from them when they persisted in rejecting his call to worship Allah. They ridiculed him and thus he left them to face their grave destiny."

What about prophet Adam (as) ate the forbidden fruit?

Prophet Adam case, read it.

http://www.al-islam.org/faith_reason/24.htm

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[2:285]The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."

They may differ in superiority(I didn't mean prophethood) but prophets are equal. The messengers made no distinction neither should we.

Adam:

[2.35-36]

And We said, "O Adam, dwell, you and your wife, in Paradise and eat therefrom in [ease and] abundance from wherever you will. But do not approach this tree, lest you be among the wrongdoers."

But Satan caused them to slip out of it and removed them from that [condition] in which they had been. And We said, "Go down, [all of you], as enemies to one another, and you will have upon the earth a place of settlement and provision for a time."

[7.23]

They said, "Our Lord, we have wronged ourselves, and if You do not forgive us and have mercy upon us, we will surely be among the losers."

^One who has more knowledge than us, Adam, judged his situation and made this statement. It's crystal clear.

[20.120-121]

Then Satan whispered to him; he said, "O Adam, shall I direct you to the tree of eternity and possession that will not deteriorate?"

And Adam and his wife ate of it, and their private parts became apparent to them, and they began to fasten over themselves from the leaves of Paradise. And Adam disobeyed his Lord and erred.

Yunus :

[21.87]

And [mention] the man of the fish, when he went off in anger and thought that We would not decree [anything] upon him. And he called out within the darknesses, "There is no deity except You; exalted are You. Indeed, I have been of the wrongdoers."

Yunus' thought in this verse alone indicates the opposite of 'infallible'.

[37.142]

Then the fish swallowed him, while he was blameworthy.

^The size of Yunus' sin.

[37.143-144]

Had it not been that he (repented and) glorified Allah, he would certainly have remained inside the Fish till the Day of Resurrection

[68.48-49]

Then be patient for the decision of your Lord, [O Muhammad], and be not like the companion of the fish when he called out while he was distressed. If not that a favor from his Lord overtook him, he would have been thrown onto the naked shore while he was censured.

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[2:285]The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."

They may differ in superiority(I didn't mean prophethood) but prophets are equal. The messengers made no distinction neither should we.

Adam:

[2.35-36]

And We said, "O Adam, dwell, you and your wife, in Paradise and eat therefrom in [ease and] abundance from wherever you will. But do not approach this tree, lest you be among the wrongdoers."

But Satan caused them to slip out of it and removed them from that [condition] in which they had been. And We said, "Go down, [all of you], as enemies to one another, and you will have upon the earth a place of settlement and provision for a time."

[7.23]

They said, "Our Lord, we have wronged ourselves, and if You do not forgive us and have mercy upon us, we will surely be among the losers."

^One who has more knowledge than us, Adam, judged his situation and made this statement. It's crystal clear.

[20.120-121]

Then Satan whispered to him; he said, "O Adam, shall I direct you to the tree of eternity and possession that will not deteriorate?"

And Adam and his wife ate of it, and their private parts became apparent to them, and they began to fasten over themselves from the leaves of Paradise. And Adam disobeyed his Lord and erred.

Yunus :

[21.87]

And [mention] the man of the fish, when he went off in anger and thought that We would not decree [anything] upon him. And he called out within the darknesses, "There is no deity except You; exalted are You. Indeed, I have been of the wrongdoers."

Yunus' thought in this verse alone indicates the opposite of 'infallible'.

[37.142]

Then the fish swallowed him, while he was blameworthy.

^The size of Yunus' sin.

[37.143-144]

Had it not been that he (repented and) glorified Allah, he would certainly have remained inside the Fish till the Day of Resurrection

[68.48-49]

Then be patient for the decision of your Lord, [O Muhammad], and be not like the companion of the fish when he called out while he was distressed. If not that a favor from his Lord overtook him, he would have been thrown onto the naked shore while he was censured.

Brother, you can post these verses over and over again, but I have given my evidence and it seems perfectly clear. Now if you want to challenge that, then be my guest. Dont just post verses underlining err and what not, because it isnt even valid, as your going per translation and not the arabic meaning. Also the verse about Muhammad has [muhammad] in brackets which once again isnt evidence as those who translated it added his name in it.

Also let me just add, your first verse isnt talking about the status of prophets being the same, its talking about their beliefs, reread the verse: they all believe in one god, books, angels....."

Also it says they wronged themselves, not Allah. if they made a sin, there should be the arabic word for forgiveness, adam and eve is asking for protection. Same goes for Yunus. Wronging ones self is not a sin or mistake. For yunus verse repented was added in the translation once again proving the fallible minds of humans adding to their own desire in the quran.

I dont have time, but i will come back and dissect each verse you posted inshAllah, be patient.

I also posted this on a different thread:

[Shakir 53:2] Your companion does not err, nor does he go astray

[Shakir 53:3] Nor does he speak out of desire.

[Shakir 53:4] It is naught but revelation that is revealed,

[Shakir 53:5] The Lord of Mighty Power has taught him,

[Shakir 53:6] The Lord of Strength; so he attained completion,

15:39

He said: My Lord, Because You has sent me astray, verily I shall adorn the path of error for them on the earth, and shall deceive them all.

15:40

Except those of them who are Your perfectly devoted Servants.

-This verse is clear. No Appointed being can be affected by satan!

"....and obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one." (Quran 76:24)

-So wait, Allah is contradiciting himself? He tells us not to obey a sinner, yet he sends us people whom sinned. Yup Totally makes sense!

A Messenger, who rehearses to you the Signs of Allah containing clear explanations, in order to lead forth those who believe and do righteous deeds from the depths of Darkness into Light." (Quran 65:11)

-How can a messenger lead us if he is the one who can make mistakes and sin, totally rational. Yup.....

As We have sent unto you a messenger from among you who recites unto you Our revelations and cleanses you, and teaches you the Scripture and wisdom, and teaches you that which you knew not. (Quran 2:151)

-Once again how can he cleanse us if he himself is dirty?

"And most certainly you are on sublime morality (exalted standard of character)." (Quran 68:4)

-Wait? What? The prophet is of the highest Moral being? Yet he sins/makes mitakes?

O you who believe! why do you say that which you do not act? It is most hateful in the sight of Allah that you say that which you do not act. (61:2-3)

-Wait so, a prophet whom can sin and make mistakes, yet is sent to others to tell them not do it, does it himself. Yet Allah chooses him and hates him, huh?

Edited by pureethics
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Brother, you can post these verses over and over again, but I have given my evidence and it seems perfectly clear. Now if you want to challenge that, then be my guest. Dont just post verses underlining err and what not, because it isnt even valid, as your going per translation and not the arabic meaning. Also the verse about Muhammad has [muhammad] in brackets which once again isnt evidence as those who translated it added his name in it.

Also let me just add, your first verse isnt talking about the status of prophets being the same, its talking about their beliefs, reread the verse: they all believe in one god, books, angels....."

Also it says they wronged themselves, not Allah. if they made a sin, there should be the arabic word for forgiveness, adam and eve is asking for protection. Same goes for Yunus. Wronging ones self is not a sin or mistake. For yunus verse repented was added in the translation once again proving the fallible minds of humans adding to their own desire in the quran.

I dont have time, but i will come back and dissect each verse you posted inshAllah, be patient.

I also posted this on a different thread:

[Shakir 53:2] Your companion does not err, nor does he go astray

[Shakir 53:3] Nor does he speak out of desire.

[Shakir 53:4] It is naught but revelation that is revealed,

[Shakir 53:5] The Lord of Mighty Power has taught him,

[Shakir 53:6] The Lord of Strength; so he attained completion,

15:39

He said: My Lord, Because You has sent me astray, verily I shall adorn the path of error for them on the earth, and shall deceive them all.

15:40

Except those of them who are Your perfectly devoted Servants.

-This verse is clear. No Appointed being can be affected by satan!

"....and obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one." (Quran 76:24)

-So wait, Allah is contradiciting himself? He tells us not to obey a sinner, yet he sends us people whom sinned. Yup Totally makes sense!

A Messenger, who rehearses to you the Signs of Allah containing clear explanations, in order to lead forth those who believe and do righteous deeds from the depths of Darkness into Light." (Quran 65:11)

-How can a messenger lead us if he is the one who can make mistakes and sin, totally rational. Yup.....

As We have sent unto you a messenger from among you who recites unto you Our revelations and cleanses you, and teaches you the Scripture and wisdom, and teaches you that which you knew not. (Quran 2:151)

-Once again how can he cleanse us if he himself is dirty?

"And most certainly you are on sublime morality (exalted standard of character)." (Quran 68:4)

-Wait? What? The prophet is of the highest Moral being? Yet he sins/makes mitakes?

O you who believe! why do you say that which you do not act? It is most hateful in the sight of Allah that you say that which you do not act. (61:2-3)

-Wait so, a prophet whom can sin and make mistakes, yet is sent to others to tell them not do it, does it himself. Yet Allah chooses him and hates him, huh?

Clearly you have proven your point, but let me tell you this, you are a very stern and an unworthy person to discuss with. You seem to always think you're right, and maybe in the case you are, but the tone of you're writing is very very annoying. Don't take this as though i hate you or anything but the way you write undermines us. This is disrespecting us, even if we are wrong we are trying to learn new things in islam, not dispute till we begin to hate the person we argue. You are right and i now understand, but please next time you want to respond to someone try to put your response in nice words like: brother maybe you haven't gotten my point. I'll try to be clearer now. Thank you for sharing this with us but there may be some misconception.... Etc Also dont be overconfident there is always someone who knows more than you, me, and the most knowledgable Allama.

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Clearly you have proven your point, but let me tell you this, you are a very stern and an unworthy person to discuss with. You seem to always think you're right, and maybe in the case you are, but the tone of you're writing is very very annoying. Don't take this as though i hate you or anything but the way you write undermines us. This is disrespecting us, even if we are wrong we are trying to learn new things in islam, not dispute till we begin to hate the person we argue. You are right and i now understand, but please next time you want to respond to someone try to put your response in nice words like: brother maybe you haven't gotten my point. I'll try to be clearer now. Thank you for sharing this with us but there may be some misconception.... Etc Also dont be overconfident there is always someone who knows more than you, me, and the most knowledgable Allama.

This post I posted wasnt towards you, it was towards someone who was arguing with me. I just copied and pasted here for others benifits. Even then, i wasnt trying to be mean or stern. Im not like that. You might of thought it from the way I type. I dont mind you telling me this, as there might have been a misunderstanding. InshAllah, we are all here to learn. I dont think im always right, I just try to say what the truth is and hopefully its the way of Allah. I honestly don know what else to say as your post is confusing me, because my attitude in my own opinion was none like you explained. I didnt disrespect you, call you names, attack you, all you did was post your evidence, I countered it. Now it is up to you to believe it or not. Inshallah, you forgive me, what ever I may have done.

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