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IbnSohan

Imam Mahdi Birth In Sunni Tradition

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According to them Shia Mahdi was born and died. refer to Siyar a'lam al Nubala

(salam)

Are you sure about that? From my understanding, the popular Sunni belief is that Imam Al-`Askari (as) did not have any children, meaning they believe that Imam Al-Mehdi (as) never existed.

(wasalam)

Edited by Crescent

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(salam)

Are you sure about that? From my understanding, the popular Sunni belief is that Imam Al-`Askari (as) did not have any children, meaning they believe that Imam Al-Mehdi (as) never existed.

(wasalam)

(salam)

This is not true, and whilst it might be the popular opinion, it is based on compound ignorance. All sunni scholars of nasab mention that Imam Al-Askari (as) had a son (as) and they do not say how he died either.

I posted a video with proof in a similar thread a while back.

Even Al-Dhahabi says he has a son and later 'udim' (i.e died) but he does not provide any reason or evidence for his death. However, he does prove that the 11th Imam had a son.

Edited by InfiniteAscension

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According to them Shia Mahdi was born and died. refer to Siyar a'lam al Nubala

Yes I am aware of that. They do not believe he was born according to one historian of theirs plus the opinion of Ibn Taymeyah.

(salam)

Are you sure about that? From my understanding, the popular Sunni belief is that Imam Al-`Askari (as) did not have any children, meaning they believe that Imam Al-Mehdi (as) never existed.

(wasalam)

I am asking about The Mahdi who is mentioned in the hadiths. Sunnis generally beielf that there will be a Mahdi but not ours, he will be diffirent man and he will be born later.

Waleykum Salaam,

We Sunnis don't reject al-Mahdi, we just reject the Shia one.

and Yes to your question.

oh can you provide the hadith that mentions that mahdi will be born in the end of times?

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oh can you provide the hadith that mentions that mahdi will be born in the end of times?

One example: Saheeh Hadith:

Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri reported that the Messenger of Allaah (Peace & Blessings of Allaah be upon Him) said: "At the end of the time of my ummah, the Mahdi will appear. Allaah will grant him rain, the earth will bring forth its fruits, he will give a lot of money, cattle will increase and the ummah will become great. He will rule for seven or eight years. (Mustadrak al-Haakim, 4/557-558; he said: this is a hadeeth whose isnaad is saheeh, Al-Dhahabi agreed with him, and al-Albaani said: this is a saheeh sanad, and its men are thiqaat (trustworthy), Silsilat al-ahaadeeth al-saheehah, vol. 2, p. 336, hadeeth 771)

Edited by Abul Hussain Hassani

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One example: Saheeh Hadith:

Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri reported that the Messenger of Allaah (Peace & Blessings of Allaah be upon Him) said: "At the end of the time of my ummah, the Mahdi will appear. Allaah will grant him rain, the earth will bring forth its fruits, he will give a lot of money, cattle will increase and the ummah will become great. He will rule for seven or eight years. (Mustadrak al-Haakim, 4/557-558; he said: this is a hadeeth whose isnaad is saheeh, and al-Albaani said: this is a saheeh sanad, and its men are thiqaat (trustworthy), Silsilat al-ahaadeeth al-saheehah, vol. 2, p. 336, hadeeth 771)

That hadith does not mention that the Mehdi (as) will be born at that time. It just mentions that he (as) will appear, which is consistent with the Shi`ah view.

Edited by Crescent

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One example: Saheeh Hadith:

Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri reported that the Messenger of Allaah (Peace & Blessings of Allaah be upon Him) said: "At the end of the time of my ummah, the Mahdi will appear. Allaah will grant him rain, the earth will bring forth its fruits, he will give a lot of money, cattle will increase and the ummah will become great. He will rule for seven or eight years. (Mustadrak al-Haakim, 4/557-558; he said: this is a hadeeth whose isnaad is saheeh, and al-Albaani said: this is a saheeh sanad, and its men are thiqaat (trustworthy), Silsilat al-ahaadeeth al-saheehah, vol. 2, p. 336, hadeeth 771)

I am aware of this hadith, the word used here is appear (yath'har), I am asking specifically about a hadith with the word "born" (youlad)

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I am aware of this hadith, the word used here is appear (yath'har), I am asking specifically about a hadith with the word "born" (youlad)

Hadeeths about al-Mahdi don't mention when and where he will be born. They only mention that He will appear (which is same as born) in end of the time. It is a prophecy that will be fulfilled.

Edited by Abul Hussain Hassani

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Hadeeths about al-Mahdi don't mention when and where he will be born. They only mention that He will appear (which is same as born) in end of the time. It is a prophecy that will be fulfilled.

Ironically, you have a sahih hadith that says Imam Mehdi afj will appear 'suddenly' and beginning of his destiny will have started.

Where do you get that appear means "being born"?

Edited by Merdan

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In many shia hadiths it is mentioned several times like, the one who will be raised or had to arise, has to grow up, will lead simple life people will not recognize he is the Imam, and he will not mention himself to anybody will sit on street or roam in market for his needs, and indeed it is also mentioned he will appear in makkah and pious people will recognize and take bayah forcefully, he will also have spiritual powers, what does these hadiths are mentioning, and it is also said that you people's faith will be tested when he will appear after a long time and also mentioned very few will be along side with him, and some time it is also mentioned that even our shia will not assist him and doubt him, what does this mean 'if Imam Mahdi will come from any side i will assist him as slave insha'Allah' will shia assist him if he comes from sunnies ? He the pious Imam will come from either cave as shia thinks or will grow up and come from the sunni sufi background by the leave of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala, insha-Allah, Allah knows best ! And woe on to them who will not assist him as all Holy Imams said, and the foremost thing is Rasool'Allah Sallallahu alaihi wa'sallam mentioned him Imam Mahdi as his son in many hadiths, jazak-Allah khair, may Allah forgive me if i mentioned some thing wrong.

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The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Even if the entire duration of the world's existence has already been exhausted and only one day is left (before the day of judgment), Allah will expand that day to such a length of time, as to accommodate the kingdom of a person from my Ahlul-Bayt who will be called by my name. He will fill out the earth with peace and justice as it will have been full of injustice and tyranny (by then)."

Sunni References:

Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v2, p86, v9, pp 74-75

Sunan Abu Dawud, v2, p7

Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,376; V3, p63

al-Mustadrak ala al-Sahihayn, by al-Hakim, v4, p557

Jami' al-Saghir, by al-Suyuti, pp 2,160

al-Urful Wardi, by al-Suyuti, p2

al-Majma', by al-Tabarani, p217

Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v9, p144

Fat'h al-Bari fi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari, by Ibn Hajar Asqalani, v7, p305

al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p249

al-Tathkirah, by al-Qurtubi, p617

al-Hawi, by al-Suyuti, v2, pp 165-166

Sharh al-Mawahib al-Ladunniyyah, by al-Zurqani, v5, p348

Fat'h al-Mugheeth, by al-Sakhawi, v3, p41

Kanz al-Ummal, v7 P186

Iqd al-Durar Fi Akhbar al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar, v12, Ch. 1,

al-Bayan fi Akhbar Sahib al-Zaman, By Ganji al-Shafi'i, Ch. 12

al-Fusool al-Muhimmah, by Ibn Sabbagh al-Maliki, Ch. 12

Arjahul Matalib, by Ubaidallah Hindi al-Hanafi, p380

Muqaddimah, by Ibn Khaldoon, p266

and also in the works of Ibn Habban, Abu Nua'ym, Ibn Asakir, etc.

So will someone be born within that one day and be the Mahdi or isn't the Mahdi (a) already existing according to Sunni hadith....

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In many shia hadiths it is mentioned several times like, the one who will be raised or had to arise, has to grow up, will lead simple life people will not recognize he is the Imam, and he will not mention himself to anybody will sit on street or roam in market for his needs, and indeed it is also mentioned he will appear in makkah and pious people will recognize and take bayah forcefully, he will also have spiritual powers, what does these hadiths are mentioning, and it is also said that you people's faith will be tested when he will appear after a long time and also mentioned very few will be along side with him, and some time it is also mentioned that even our shia will not assist him and doubt him, what does this mean 'if Imam Mahdi will come from any side i will assist him as slave insha'Allah' will shia assist him if he comes from sunnies ? He the pious Imam will come from either cave as shia thinks or will grow up and come from the sunni sufi background by the leave of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala, insha-Allah, Allah knows best ! And woe on to them who will not assist him as all Holy Imams said, and the foremost thing is Rasool'Allah Sallallahu alaihi wa'sallam mentioned him Imam Mahdi as his son in many hadiths, jazak-Allah khair, may Allah forgive me if i mentioned some thing wrong.

we have such hadiths?

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So will someone be born within that one day and be the Mahdi or isn't the Mahdi (a) already existing according to Sunni hadith....

It doesn't mean he will born within one day. This is your addition.

Sunni Mahdi is born normally and is a normal person and he will live normally. He will appear in the end of time and rule for seven years.

This is no the case with Shia Mahdi.

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It doesn't mean he will born within one day. This is your addition.

Sunni Mahdi is born normally and is a normal person and he will live normally. He will appear in the end of time and rule for seven years.

This is no the case with Shia Mahdi.

I still don't see the word born......

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It doesn't mean he will born within one day. This is your addition.

Sunni Mahdi is born normally and is a normal person and he will live normally. He will appear in the end of time and rule for seven years.

This is no the case with Shia Mahdi.

Much of the hadiths about The Mahdi in sunni tradition are almost identical to the Shia's, except maybe for those claiming that Mahdi is Hasani ie from the progeny of Imam Hassan Alayhi Assalam, those hadiths are thought to be produced by Muhamad tho Annafs Azzakeyah followers back then.

The idea that he will be born later, that he will be an ordinary man and that he will be guided to the right path over a night before his appearance are your sect reflections on hadiths.

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The whole concept of Mehdi is a myth created by the Abbasids to justify their monarchy. Ibn Khaldun , the greatest Muslim historiographer , has rejected this myth as a non-arab induction into Islam as a result of political rivalry.

No magical person is to come to save the superstitious , myth-ridden and sectarianist Muslims.

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The whole concept of Mehdi is a myth created by the Abbasids to justify their monarchy. Ibn Khaldun , the greatest Muslim historiographer , has rejected this myth as a non-arab induction into Islam as a result of political rivalry.

No magical person is to come to save the superstitious , myth-ridden and sectarianist Muslims.

But this is a universal idea among many religions. There are many Sunni and Shia ahadith that talk about the coming of the Mehdi. It is one thing to say that dynasties and rulers invented or created this concept from scratch and it is another thing to say that they took advantage of and capitalized on this already existent Islamic concept. I think you probably mean the latter.

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The whole concept of Mehdi is a myth created by the Abbasids to justify their monarchy. Ibn Khaldun , the greatest Muslim historiographer , has rejected this myth as a non-arab induction into Islam as a result of political rivalry.

No magical person is to come to save the superstitious , myth-ridden and sectarianist Muslims.

You should be careful about accepting such simplistic theories. The whole reason Ibn Khaldun rejected the concept of the Mahdi was because it didn't fit in with his theory of history (which is rather egotistical). It's not that different from rejecting the story of Adam and Eve because someone doesn't fit in with evolution.

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The whole concept of Mehdi is a myth created by the Abbasids to justify their monarchy. Ibn Khaldun , the greatest Muslim historiographer , has rejected this myth as a non-arab induction into Islam as a result of political rivalry.

No magical person is to come to save the superstitious , myth-ridden and sectarianist Muslims.

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Oh yea..... Lets look for the word BORN in Sunni books we will GET THEM ON THIS but..............CANNOT FIND AN INKLING OR LETTER TO DO WITH IMAMS OR IMAMATE OF SHIITE CONCEPT IN QURAN

brilliant no wonder your still stook looking forever for that MISSING LINK and the one that can give you the link is in gaybah

Lol

Now that is SUMMERT to ponder over mmmmm

brother, may I ask a personal question to you? do you always laugh when you're trapped? when you guys don't have anything to say then you say "lol" and "hahahaha" ... and these things not fitted in some serious discussion.

and this is for those who thinks Mehdi is myth etc

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Even if the entire duration of the world's existence has already been exhausted and only one day is left (before the day of judgment), Allah will expand that day to such a length of time, as to accommodate the kingdom of a person from my Ahlul-Bayt who will be called by my name. He will fill out the earth with peace and justice as it will have been full of injustice and tyranny (by then)."

Sunni References:

  • Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v2, p86, v9, pp 74-75
  • Sunan Abu Dawud, v2, p7
  • Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,376; V3, p63
  • al-Mustadrak ala al-Sahihayn, by al-Hakim, v4, p557
  • Jami' al-Saghir, by al-Suyuti, pp 2,160
  • al-Urful Wardi, by al-Suyuti, p2
  • al-Majma', by al-Tabarani, p217
  • Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v9, p144
  • Fat'h al-Bari fi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari, by Ibn Hajar Asqalani, v7, p305
  • al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p249
  • al-Tathkirah, by al-Qurtubi, p617
  • al-Hawi, by al-Suyuti, v2, pp 165-166
  • Sharh al-Mawahib al-Ladunniyyah, by al-Zurqani, v5, p348
  • Fat'h al-Mugheeth, by al-Sakhawi, v3, p41
  • Kanz al-Ummal, v7 P186
  • Iqd al-Durar Fi Akhbar al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar, v12, Ch. 1,
  • al-Bayan fi Akhbar Sahib al-Zaman, By Ganji al-Shafi'i, Ch. 12
  • al-Fusool al-Muhimmah, by Ibn Sabbagh al-Maliki, Ch. 12
  • Arjahul Matalib, by Ubaidallah Hindi al-Hanafi, p380
  • Muqaddimah, by Ibn Khaldoon, p266
  • and also in the works of Ibn Habban, Abu Nua'ym, Ibn Asakir, etc.

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "We the children of Abd al-Muttalib are the Masters of the inhabitants of the heaven: Myself, Hamza (ra), Ali (as), Ja'far Ibn Abi Talib (ra), al-Hasan (as), al-Husain (as), and al-Mahdi (as)."

Sunni references:

  • Sunan Ibn Majah, v2, Tradition #4087
  • al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, on the authority of Anas Ibn Malik
  • al-Daylami
  • al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p245

(wasalam)

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brother, may I ask a personal question to you? do you always laugh when you're trapped? when you guys don't have anything to say then you say "lol" and "hahahaha" ... and these things not fitted in some serious discussion.

and this is for those who thinks Mehdi is myth etc

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Even if the entire duration of the world's existence has already been exhausted and only one day is left (before the day of judgment), Allah will expand that day to such a length of time, as to accommodate the kingdom of a person from my Ahlul-Bayt who will be called by my name. He will fill out the earth with peace and justice as it will have been full of injustice and tyranny (by then)."

Sunni References:

  • Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v2, p86, v9, pp 74-75
  • Sunan Abu Dawud, v2, p7
  • Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,376; V3, p63
  • al-Mustadrak ala al-Sahihayn, by al-Hakim, v4, p557
  • Jami' al-Saghir, by al-Suyuti, pp 2,160
  • al-Urful Wardi, by al-Suyuti, p2
  • al-Majma', by al-Tabarani, p217
  • Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v9, p144
  • Fat'h al-Bari fi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari, by Ibn Hajar Asqalani, v7, p305
  • al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p249
  • al-Tathkirah, by al-Qurtubi, p617
  • al-Hawi, by al-Suyuti, v2, pp 165-166
  • Sharh al-Mawahib al-Ladunniyyah, by al-Zurqani, v5, p348
  • Fat'h al-Mugheeth, by al-Sakhawi, v3, p41
  • Kanz al-Ummal, v7 P186
  • Iqd al-Durar Fi Akhbar al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar, v12, Ch. 1,
  • al-Bayan fi Akhbar Sahib al-Zaman, By Ganji al-Shafi'i, Ch. 12
  • al-Fusool al-Muhimmah, by Ibn Sabbagh al-Maliki, Ch. 12
  • Arjahul Matalib, by Ubaidallah Hindi al-Hanafi, p380
  • Muqaddimah, by Ibn Khaldoon, p266
  • and also in the works of Ibn Habban, Abu Nua'ym, Ibn Asakir, etc.

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "We the children of Abd al-Muttalib are the Masters of the inhabitants of the heaven: Myself, Hamza (ra), Ali (as), Ja'far Ibn Abi Talib (ra), al-Hasan (as), al-Husain (as), and al-Mahdi (as)."

Sunni references:

  • Sunan Ibn Majah, v2, Tradition #4087
  • al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, on the authority of Anas Ibn Malik
  • al-Daylami
  • al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p245

(wasalam)

I believe imam Mahdi as will be born in end times

So you just wasted your time and mine( I could be in bed by now asleep )by posting all the stuff about him

Hence.....again.......lol......and I ain't trapped......brother far from it I am answering freely and logically

Edited by Naz_
There's no need to insult people.

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Lol is it NATURAL FOR YOU GUYS TO POINT FINGERS AND FALSELY ASSUME SOMETHING WE ARE NOT??

Is it because you are trapped and nowhere to go?

This is intelligent ain't it?

Why look for something VAGUE from hadiths? And it's not even important!

But SUMMERT SO important as immamate you cannot find in primary book??

Hence the.......LOL

But I guess from chatting with you brother and your flawed logic this is your responses WITHOUT THINKING

I believe imam Mahdi as will be born in end times

So you just wasted your time and mine( I could be in bed by now asleep )by posting all the stuff about him

Hence.....again.......lol......and I ain't trapped......brother far from it I am answering freely and logically unlike yourself (who doesn't even know if I believe in imam Mahdi as or not but will accuse me different)

As is the usual case

just wanted to inform you. I said these hadiths for those who don't believe Mehdi concept. I was pointing to "saima-bukhari" ... please read my message again.

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Oh yea..... Lets look for the word BORN in Sunni books we will GET THEM ON THIS but..............CANNOT FIND AN INKLING OR LETTER TO DO WITH IMAMS OR IMAMATE OF SHIITE CONCEPT IN QURAN

brilliant no wonder your still stook looking forever for that MISSING LINK and the one that can give you the link is in gaybah

Lol

Now that is SUMMERT to ponder over mmmmm

This is not an accusation, it is an honest request. You should be happy though that non of your scholars had narrated any hadith that mention Ghaybah, did they?

This is not the topic about Imama In Quran, besides, one who is ignoring the direct order of the prophet to follow Ahlulbayt in the hadith Aththaqalayin should not claim he understand Quran better than the rest. If a direct order from the prophet meant nothing to do then I wonder how would you be able and ready to accept that great meanings that Quraan holds. By rejecting hadith athaqalayin, you are rejecting the many verses of Quraan that order you to follow the prophet's teachings.

Again, this is not about Imamah in Quraan because that topic is beyond your capabilities. Please do not derail this thread if you are unable to provide hadiths or have the means to look for any of them.

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But this is a universal idea among many religions. There are many Sunni and Shia ahadith that talk about the coming of the Mehdi. It is one thing to say that dynasties and rulers invented or created this concept from scratch and it is another thing to say that they took advantage of and capitalized on this already existent Islamic concept. I think you probably mean the latter.

When i first read the criticism of Ibn Khaldun on the concept of Mehdi , the first though (or say rebuttal) to that came in my mind was that even if some monarchs have used this concept for this interests , how does it prove that it was invented. Rather , the idea may have been around and the monarchs would have capitalized on it. However , it seems that none of the hadithists mentioned any Mehdi in the first century. From the Sunni perspective , Mawta of Malik is thought to be the first compilation of narration but it says nothing about mehdi or the second arrival of jesus though Malik has narrated a dream of the prophet about Jesus. It was the appropriate time for malik to mention any such narration about Mehdi or jesus's second arrival but he does not and it means that he had no knowledge. Similarly , abu hanifa has mentioned the basics of religion and has said nothing about mehdi. So it means that its a concept which became popular later. Black flags and Khorasaan got identified with Abu Muslim Khorasaani and i see the narrations about mehdi a forgery in this context.

Which makes all of about no sense whatsoever, since the Abbasids were not descendants of the Prophet (sawa) nor `Alids, and hence sought to suppress the latter's uprisings against their rule. Why then would they create a myth of an `Alid savior figure that totally counters and invalidates their claims to power? Not to mention you'd have to explain how for instance you had the Kaysani movement (Mukhtar and co) during the Umayyad period, whose claim was that Muhammad b. al-Hanafiyya (a son of `Ali (as)) was the Mahdi (and in ghayba at that).

Its not about al hanfiyyah but its about Abu Muslim Khorasaani. You don't find Hassan mentioned in all the Sunni hadiths about Mehdi so the addition of Hassan though can not be explained from Abbasid perspective , can be seen as the later revolts from the progeny of hassan but the black flags and Khorasaan fall perfectly well in the Abbasid perspective.

Pardon my ignorance regarding your faith but... how can you build a belief based on the opinion of one historian? Last I check, history books are not sacred books nor historians are prophets. If you are a Qura'anist and i am guessing here then how can you accept the words of the historian but rejects the words of a prophet?

May I add something so it may provoke some thoughts in you, how do you understand this verse?

For We have written in the Psalms, after the Remembrance, 'The earth shall be the inheritance of My righteous servants. (21:05)

being a Quraanist (which i am not in the applied sense) , does not entail that one may not have an opinion on history. Ibn Khaldun's is a unanimously acknowledged historian and the father of modern historiography , so his opinion matters.

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This BlackNight guy has alot of time on his hands...all he does is come on this forum a refute everything...loool about things say haha...then you ask why we can't take you seriously? Your ego will get the better of you one day...

as you said @blacknight "But I guess from chatting with you brother and your flawed logic this is your responses WITHOUT THINKING"

FLAWED LOGIC?

Seriously....the same people who believe The Jaal is on a island...but when we ask you to believe the Mehdi is born with PROOFS...you say MYTH etc etc etc only to suite your own beliefs..

YOU BELIEVE THE JAAL CAN BE ALIVE LIVING FOR MORE THAN 1400 YEARS...

wait you Believe according to Ahlus Sunnah Evil can be in Alive for x amount of years but Good cannot....

who's logic is flawed?

God willing on the day of judgement you will be asked about your sarcastic LOL's haha's regarding the Mehdi....

Show respect to the Mehdi by saying their may be proof but i'm unsure...don't disrespect him...

"you want to be apart of Mehdi's army...You know hes from the Ahlulbayt....yet on Ashura you fast for the children of Bani Israel yet you forgot about the Children of Mohammed"

answer me 2 questions:

WHERE IS THE JAAL?

&&

Where is PROPHET ESA

Answer those questions you will see how flawed your logic is....that when it comes to Evil like the Jaal you believe he has one eye...hes alive etcc... but when we talk about the saviour of mankind you talk bad about him....

Edited by Naz_

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