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In the Name of God بسم الله

Are God And Satan The Same Person?

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Here are two verses from the Bible. They are separate sources that refer to the same events (such as the 4 gospels) in the Old Testament. It appears to me, that God and Satan are the same person in the Old Testament. Maybe it was just a mistake on behalf of the scribes, but interesting nonetheless. Can any Jews/Christians explain this?

"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." (1 Chronicles 21:1)

"And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." (2 Samuel 24:1)

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Many verses of the Bible provide different aspects of the same event. Taking both together, it appears here that God allowed Satan to tempt David, as Satan so desired. There was a lesson in it all that God had for David & Israel on a whole.

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Well, if you believe God can become a man (Jesus), then what's stopping that God from becoming Satan, Angel and other creatures.

Borderline blasphemy otta do it. Of course checking the satanic verses also should clear things up. Someone should check with Harry Potter.

This is an interesting passage in Samuel. "The anger of the Lord" cannot be God. I know, Christians tend to believe that every time in the OT it mentions any form of "god" it truly means God, but there is, The Spirit of the Lord, The Word of the Lord, The Angel of the Lord. The Lord of hosts. None of these are God. God created many servants, not as an audience so they could watch Him do everything Himself, but to preform as He says "Be".

Satan is also a name that has been used for adversaries/enemies of...In this case David. Many scholars believe Satan was the wrong word to use because it has no "article" in front of it. Not into Hebrew so I'm not sure exactly what that means. They believe it to be " In the garb of a friend, with the spirit of an enemy. One only has to read further to see that God Almighty was not pleased with the census and gave David a choice on punishment. Obviously God would not play both parts.

In parallel to this we find in the Quran;

Khakifa 2:102 They pursued what the devils taught concerning Solomon's kingdom.

Khalifa/devils Pickthall/devils Shakir/shaitans Sherali/rebellious men Yusufali/Evil ones/blasphemers

As you can see, depending on the authors interpretation devils or men can be classed with the same

If they can do it in the Quran why not in the Bible?

Edited by Son of Placid
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  • 3 weeks later...

Borderline blasphemy otta do it. Of course checking the satanic verses also should clear things up. Someone should check with Harry Potter.

This is an interesting passage in Samuel. "The anger of the Lord" cannot be God. I know, Christians tend to believe that every time in the OT it mentions any form of "god" it truly means God, but there is, The Spirit of the Lord, The Word of the Lord, The Angel of the Lord. The Lord of hosts. None of these are God. God created many servants, not as an audience so they could watch Him do everything Himself, but to preform as He says "Be".

Satan is also a name that has been used for adversaries/enemies of...In this case David. Many scholars believe Satan was the wrong word to use because it has no "article" in front of it. Not into Hebrew so I'm not sure exactly what that means. They believe it to be " In the garb of a friend, with the spirit of an enemy. One only has to read further to see that God Almighty was not pleased with the census and gave David a choice on punishment. Obviously God would not play both parts.

In parallel to this we find in the Quran;

Khakifa 2:102 They pursued what the devils taught concerning Solomon's kingdom.

Khalifa/devils Pickthall/devils Shakir/shaitans Sherali/rebellious men Yusufali/Evil ones/blasphemers

As you can see, depending on the authors interpretation devils or men can be classed with the same

If they can do it in the Quran why not in the Bible?

Anger of the Lord and Lord are the same

NUMBERS 12:9/

The anger of the LORD burned against them, and he left them/. NEW INTERNATIONALVERSION

The LORD was very angry with them, and he departed/ NEW LIVING TRANSLATION

This is the first instance in Scripture where Satan is referred to and actually given a name. In Job he is referred to as “the adversary.” Here there is no definite article (“the”) and “Satan” now becomes his name. In other words, just as Hebrew names describe a situation or relationship, Satan’s name describes his nature.

This is also true of the Messiah. Throughout Scripture He is referred to as “the Anointed One”. But in Daniel, and from that time forward, the definite article (“the”) is dropped and He is simply referred to as “Messiah.” He has become His name which reflects His nature.

Quran makes it clear that Satan is a disbeliever, but when Christianity claims that Satan and God are the same, one wonders.

2:102(Instead of this,) they began to follow that (magic) to which the devils falsely attributed (the greatness of) the kingdom of Solomon. In fact Solomon was never involved in any practice of disbelief, but the satans, who taught magic to the people were themselves guilty of disbelief.

The devil who rules this world has blinded the minds of those who do not believe. They cannot see the light of the Good News—the Good News about the glory of Christ, who is exactly like God. 2 Corinthians 4:4

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but when Christianity claims that Satan and God are the same, one wonders.

You really have to wonder about the kind of people that would wonder about this...

Was Solomon a Christian? Anybody around him a Christian? Did a Christian write the OT? Somebody's not thinking. What the heck, blame it on the Christians anyway.

The devil who rules this world has blinded the minds of those who do not believe. They cannot see the light of the Good News—the Good News about the glory of Christ, who is exactly like God. 2 Corinthians 4:4

The "easy to read" version? Are you kidding me? How long did it take you to find this? Try every other translation see what it says.

Misleading Muslims again...

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The dictionary meaning of "image" is, --- a representation or likeness --- a picture.

The Word (Logos) was the Manifestation of God in the visible Person of Jesus.

(In context) 2 Corinthians 4:

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,

4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake.

6 For it is God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

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You really have to wonder about the kind of people that would wonder about this...

Was Solomon a Christian? Anybody around him a Christian? Did a Christian write the OT? Somebody's not thinking. What the heck, blame it on the Christians anyway.

So you think that God of OT was different? This is Marconism. Despite the Church`s false preaching that the God of OT was a Christian God, Marcion lives in the mind of Christian .NT destroyed the cruel Satanic and weak God of OT

Luke 5:36/And He was also telling them a parable: "No one tears a piece of cloth from a new garment and puts it on an old garment; otherwise he will both tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old.

The "easy to read" version? Are you kidding me? How long did it take you to find this? Try every other translation see what it says.

Misleading Muslims again..

That translation was supporting Christianity! If you take the Holy KJV, you cannot escape the fact that it is the God who is the Satan and corrupts the mind of people.

2 Corinthians 4:4

King James Version (KJV)

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,

.

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I believes that Christianity is satanic because it was the Satan who corrupted the message of Jesus. There is no need to get furious. You can present your counterarguments.

2 Peter 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaamthe son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;... 18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage."

in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience./ Satan is also called "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2)

2 Cor 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." A religion which is based on lies and killing is openly accepting the devil as their god. They will call the devil god and worship him using another name.

"2 Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."

It is reported that, “Jesus (‘a) will descend, wearing two saffron colored robes.” According to another tradition, “Jesus the son of Mary will descend to a hill of the Sacred Earth that is named Ithbaní [or Ithbayt]. Two yellow dresses are on him and the hair of his head is annointed and there is a lance (arm) in his hand by which he kills Dajjàl. He comes to Jerusalem while the people pray the afternoon prayer and Imàm is in front of them. Imàm comes back, but Jesus prefers him and prays behind him according to the revealed law of Muhammad. Then he will kill the swine, break the crosses, destroy the churches and temples and kill the Christians unless they believe in him.”

(‘Umdah, 430)

http://portalislamica.org/index.php?view=article&catid=141%3Ajesus-through-shiite-narrations-&id=427%3Ahis-second-coming&tmpl=component&print=1&page=&option=com_content

Buen viaje! :D

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Buen viaje! :D

Thanks, the flight down is never the best part. My ears will remain plugged until I catch the first barracuda.

I believes that Christianity is satanic because it was the Satan who corrupted the message of Jesus.

I believe if you go to the thread "Who is James in the Gospel of Thomas?" you will see the complete message of Jesus. If you find it corrupted, you can always ask..

There is no need to get furious.

No worries, "Satan" has infiltrated every aspect of human life possible, Christians too. I've dealt with it.

2 Peter 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaamthe son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;... 18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage."

in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience./ Satan is also called "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2)

2 Cor 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." A religion which is based on lies and killing is openly accepting the devil as their god. They will call the devil god and worship him using another name.

"2 Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."

It is reported that, “Jesus (‘a) will descend, wearing two saffron colored robes.” According to another tradition, “Jesus the son of Mary will descend to a hill of the Sacred Earth that is named Ithbaní [or Ithbayt]. Two yellow dresses are on him and the hair of his head is annointed and there is a lance (arm) in his hand by which he kills Dajjàl. He comes to Jerusalem while the people pray the afternoon prayer and Imàm is in front of them. Imàm comes back, but Jesus prefers him and prays behind him according to the revealed law of Muhammad. Then he will kill the swine, break the crosses, destroy the churches and temples and kill the Christians unless they believe in him.”

(‘Umdah, 430)

http://portalislamic...ion=com_content

Are you meaning to say that there are no false Prophets/teachers involved in Islam? Hint: They usually start with "It is reported that..." Muslims are usually oblivious to satan and evil spirits, demons, devils, etc. as they've been taught "Jinn" This may not be a topic you want to get into with me as I could chill your spine more than once.

Here's what Jouhn and Paul have to say about it.

4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that[a] Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,[c] against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints

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Thanks, the flight down is never the best part. My ears will remain plugged until I catch the first barracuda.

Chewing Gum will straighten the Eustachian tube.

I believe if you go to the thread "Who is James in the Gospel of Thomas?" you will see the complete message of Jesus. If you find it corrupted, you can always ask..

The Apostles under Satan`s influence changed the message.

Matthew 16:23 But he turned and said to Peter, t“Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.

Mark 8:33 But turning and seeing his disciples, he rebuked Peter and said, “Get behind me, Satan! For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man

So the Rock was Satan? The Church's beginning came from someone who offended and denied Jesus. As the Canon of Bible approved by a Satanic Church, what comes next?

No worries, "Satan" has infiltrated every aspect of human life possible, Christians too. I've dealt with it.

Matthew 4:1 Closely following the Spirit’s acknowledgement of Jesus, the Spirit directs Jesus to go into this wilderness where He would be tempted by Satan.

(Luke 12:49)"I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?"

Sounds a little devilish?

Are you meaning to say that there are no false Prophets/teachers involved in Islam? Hint: They usually start with "It is reported that..." Muslims are usually oblivious to satan and evil spirits, demons, devils, etc. as they've been taught "Jinn" This may not be a topic you want to get into with me as I could chill your spine more than once.

If I brought it up in another rgread,you would have cried off topic

Here's what Jouhn and Paul have to say about it.

If any, Pal was a false Prophet himself. Of the 22 times in the Bible where Paul is referred to as an "apostle", only twice is he referred to as an apostle by someone other than himself! These two instances came from the same person. Not from Jesus or any of the original apostles, but from Paul's close traveling companion and personal press secretary Luke

"And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars." Revelation 2:2

Notice that the idea of apostle is completely negated first and then the idea of liar appears to be in addition to the fact. So if Paul was the one this verse was referring to.

Paul mad an oath

"Now concerning the things which I write to you, indeed, before God, I do not lie." Galatians 1:20

Which made him evil

’ But I say to you, do not swear at all, For whatever is more than these is from the evil one." Matthew 5:33-37

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Here are two verses from the Bible. They are separate sources that refer to the same events (such as the 4 gospels) in the Old Testament. It appears to me, that God and Satan are the same person in the Old Testament. Maybe it was just a mistake on behalf of the scribes, but interesting nonetheless. Can any Jews/Christians explain this?

"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." (1 Chronicles 21:1)

"And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." (2 Samuel 24:1)

this aya can be applied for all holy texts:

It is He who has sent down to you, the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific.

As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding. 3:7

(surat al Imran)

because, the bible is one of Allah's books, as per ayas such as this one, talking about true muslims believing in His Books:

The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and

His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination." 2:285

If you have an issue against the ahl kitab, in general, then that is also against our religion:

They are not [all] the same; among the People of the Scripture is a community standing [in obedience], reciting the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating [in prayer]. 3:113

They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and hasten to good deeds. And those are among the righteous. 3:114

And whatever good they do - never will it be removed from them. And Allah is Knowing of the righteous. 3:115

H 14731 –Muhammad Bin yahya, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad Bin Isa, from Ibn Mahboub, from

Jameel Bin Salih, from Abu Khalid Al-Kabuly, who has narrated the following:

Then he asws said: ‘The Jews differed, from after Musa as and separated into seventy- one sects, one of which will be in the Paradise and seventy sects would be in the Fire. And the Christians separated, from after Isa as into seventy-two sects, one of which would be in the Paradise and seventy-one of the sects would be in the Fire. And this community will separate after its Prophet saww into seventy-three sects. Seventy-two sects would be in the Fire and one sect would be in the Paradise. And from these seventy-three sects, thirteen would be of those who claim to be in our asws Wilayah and show affection to us asws. Twelve sects from these would be in the Fire and one sect would be in the Paradise. And sixty sects from the rest of the people would be in the Fire’.

Kafi Vol 8

so we have the same issue with the religions of Judeaism, Christianity and Islam: only a small faction of each will make it to heaven. So there is no point looking for mistakes in other ones.

1 - In my opinion the title of this thread is blasphemous, disrespectful and wrong. It is a disrespectful question towards God, the gospels, Jesus (pbuh), and the true followers that heavenly religion. Why even ask such a question? I would rather fear my own status and intelligence, instead of throwing such a blasphemous unintelligent question.

2 - Anybody here trying to interpret the bible in this way is exactly like people interpreting quran without having access to the Arabic version. The translation of books of Allah is never perfect, even in the quran, so it is not right to make conclusions in the gospels or taurat, with such lack of background.

also, i see so many shias complaining about muslims interpreting quran without ahl bayt approval. why is it different with bible? why would you guys be allowed to come up with conclusions if you have no background with open-hearted history, background and true meanings of those ancient texts?

3 - As much as it's our duty to seek unity between muslims, it is also important to seek unity between muslims and christians. Otherwise we are no better than takfiri wahhabis, who are quick to look down at any other group other than theirs. A bit arrogant in my opinion, as well as ignorant.

so unless you guys have hebrew/ ancient greek knowledge and bring the original bible code, it's best not to get into things that we don't understand in the bible translations. Just overlook and take from the teachings of Jesus and Moses, whatever helps you, and give the benefit of the doubt.

i also want to point out that Allah has told us how to talk with the other heavenly religions, which again shows that the title of this thread is un-Islamic and wrong and against the will of Allah:

And

do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him." 29:46

Those who believe, and those who follow the

Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. 2:62

i urge respect:

respect of our Christian brothers

respect of the gospels / taurat

(wasalam)

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Thanks Son of Placid and peace seeker ^^ You both actually explained it pretty well.

Here are the quotes from a different translation (I won't name it, because everyone will have a fit about it. I find this translation to be among the most accurate, but for some reason, everyone hates it simply because a bad organization produced it. Bad people can produce good things, sometimes.)

"And Satan proceeded to stand up against Israel and to incite David to number Israel." (1 Chronicles 21:1)

"And again the anger of YHVH came to be hot against Israel, when one incited David against them, saying: 'Go, take a count of Israel and Judah'." (2 Samuel 24:1)

As seen through this translation, the second verse doesn't specify that it was YHVH (the LORD) who incited David to number Israel, but that YHVH became angry with David because (or at the same time that) Satan tempted David to number Israel.

I apologize for the confusion. I really should have done my research on this before posting it. I have resources at my disposal to get into the nitty gritty of the Hebrew text, but I just didn't bother. Forgive me if my original post came across as attacking.

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do you believe that satan la did not corrupt the message of Mohammad (pbuh) ?

or, to be more accurate: that the people did not let him corrupt the message of their prophet?

{We have, without doubt, sent down the Reminder [i.e., the Quran]; and We will assuredly guard it [from corruption].} (Al-Hijr 15:9)

I swear by the star when it goes down. Your companion does not err, nor does he (Muhammad) go astray; Nor does he speak out of desire. It is naught but revelation that is revealed, The Lord of Mighty Power has taught him

Quran [53:1-5]

Sayyid al-Murtadha, a Shi'ite Scholar said:

"... our certainty of the completeness of the Quran is like our

certainty of the existence of countries or major events that are self

evident. Motives and reasons for recording and guarding the Holy Quran

are numerous. Because the Quran is a miracle of the Prophethood and

the source of Islamic Knowledge and religious rule, their concern with

the Quran made the Muslim Scholars highly efficient concerning

grammar, its reading, and its verses

Christian will doubt its authenticity, but no Muslim can doubt Quran. Many Christian scholars have written against the authenticity of Bible. We can debate about the contradictions and translations of Bible, but one thing is pretty clear. The Church allowed liars to write the Bible! Now you can think that Bible and Quran can raise the same sort of satanic doubts but for me believing in a book written by liars is impossible.

"But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them (Jews and Christians) and made their hearts hard; they ALTERED THE WORDS FROM THEIR PLACES and THEY NEGLECTED A PORTION OF WHAT THEY WERE REMINDED OF; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others)." (Glorious Quran 5:13)

Apart from the most rabid fundamentalists among us, nearly everyone admits that the Bible might contain errors -- a faulty creation story here, a historical mistake there, a contradiction or two in some other place. But is it possible that the problem is worse than that -- that the Bible actually contains lies?

Most people wouldn't put it that way, since the Bible is, after all, sacred Scripture for millions on our planet. But good Christian scholars of the Bible, including the top Protestant and Catholic scholars of America, will tell you that the Bible is full of lies, even if they refuse to use the term. And here is the truth: Many of the books of the New Testament were written by people who lied about their identity, claiming to be a famous apostle -- Peter, Paul or James -- knowing full well they were someone else. In modern parlance, that is a lie, and a book written by someone who lies about his identity is a forgery.

Most modern scholars of the Bible shy away from these terms, and for understandable reasons, some having to do with their clientele. Teaching in Christian seminaries, or to largely Christian undergraduate populations, who wants to denigrate the cherished texts of Scripture by calling them forgeries built on lies? And so scholars use a different term for this phenomenon and call such books "pseudepigrapha."

You will find this antiseptic term throughout the writings of modern scholars of the Bible. It's the term used in university classes on the New Testament, and in seminary courses, and in Ph.D. seminars. What the people who use the term do not tell you is that it literally means "writing that is inscribed with a lie."

And that's what such writings are. Whoever wrote the New Testament book of 2 Peter claimed to be Peter. But scholars everywhere -- except for our friends among the fundamentalists -- will tell you that there is no way on God's green earth that Peter wrote the book. Someone else wrote it claiming to be Peter. Scholars may also tell you that it was an acceptable practice in the ancient world for someone to write a book in the name of someone else. But that is where they are wrong. If you look at what ancient people actually said about the practice, you'll see that they invariably called it lying and condemned it as a deceitful practice, even in Christian circles. 2 Peter was finally accepted into the New Testament because the church fathers, centuries later, were convinced that Peter wrote it. But he didn't. Someone else did. And that someone else lied about his identity.

The same is true of many of the letters allegedly written by Paul. Most scholars will tell you that whereas seven of the 13 letters that go under Paul's name are his, the other six are not. Their authors merely claimed to be Paul. In the ancient world, books like that were labeled as pseudoi -- lies.

This may all seem like a bit of antiquarian curiosity, especially for people whose lives don't depend on the Bible or even people of faith for whom biblical matters are a peripheral interest at best. But in fact, it matters sometimes. Whoever wrote the book of 1 Timothy claimed to be Paul. But he was lying about that -- he was someone else living after Paul had died. In his book, the author of 1 Timothy used Paul's name and authority to address a problem that he saw in the church. Women were speaking out, exercising authority and teaching men. That had to stop. The author told women to be silent and submissive, and reminded his readers about what happened the first time a woman was allowed to exercise authority over a man, in that little incident in the garden of Eden. No, the author argued, if women wanted to be saved, they were to have babies (1 Tim. 2:11-15).

Largely on the basis of this passage, the apostle Paul has been branded, by more liberation minded people of recent generations, as one of history's great misogynists. The problem, of course, is that Paul never said any such thing. And why does it matter? Because the passage is still used by church leaders today to oppress and silence women. Why are there no women priests in the Catholic Church? Why are women not allowed to preach in conservative evangelical churches? Why are there churches today that do not allow women even to speak? In no small measure it is because Paul allegedly taught that women had to be silent, submissive and pregnant. Except that the person who taught this was not Paul, but someone lying about his identity so that his readers would think he was Paul.

It may be one of the greatest ironies of the Christian scriptures that some of them insist on truth, while telling a lie. For no author is truth more important than for the "Paul" of Ephesians. He refers to the gospel as "the word of truth" (1:13); he indicates that the "truth is in Jesus"; he tells his readers to "speak the truth" to their neighbors (4:24-25); and he instructs his readers to "fasten the belt of truth around your waist" (6:14). And yet he himself lied about who he was. He was not really Paul.

It appears that some of the New Testament writers, such as the authors of 2 Peter, 1 Timothy and Ephesians, felt they were perfectly justified to lie in order to tell the truth. But we today can at least evaluate their claims and realize just how human, and fallible, they were. They were creatures of their time and place. And so too were their teachings, lies and all.

James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

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^^ man, i'd prefer if you write your own thing and don't copy-paste.

anything you (or the author of your pasted text ) mention can be applied to a big percentage of muslims too, who altered the meaning of the words of Allah in the quran. There is no point in condemning all of Christianity, especially when our quran and prophet does not do so (and asks us not to do so). It is clear that there are good ahl kitab, and that's it. If you want to look for devils and alterations and perversions in religion, look at your own religion, and start with the wahhabi movement perhaps. Look at people who claim to be muslim and kill the children of our prophet. look at Yazidis, who are more satanic than any Christian hypocrite.

But you have no right of generalizing about Christianity, just like you are not allowed to generalize about Islam.

i will show you the same ayas from the quran that you have to obey if you don't want to be influenced by satan yourself:

The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers.

All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and

His books

and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination." 2:285

And

do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them,

and say, "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one;

and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him." 29:46

Those who believe, and those who follow the

Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. 2:62

(wasalam)

Edited by peace seeker
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Well, if you believe God can become a man (Jesus), then what's stopping that God from becoming Satan, Angel and other creatures.

God is capable of all (inna Allah aala kol shay2 qadir 2:148 ), and can do anything He pleases. What is stopping Him from not doing something is purely His Will. and His Divine Decision. Perfect Decision.

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God is capable of all (inna Allah aala kol shay2 qadir 2:148 ), and can do anything He pleases. What is stopping Him from not doing something is purely His Will. and His Divine Decision. Perfect Decision.

Can do anything/everything is different than god can become everything/anything as long as he wills it.

God has some attributes that cannot undergo changes/unchangeable. No matter what you think God is capable of, he is not capable of certain thing and not because he's powerless.

Edited by Gypsy
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I am not debating here the misuse of scripture. Zionists kill thousands of Palestinian children and claim that they are following the Bible. So any scripture can be used for worldly purpose.

I am debating here the authenticity of Bible. If it is not authentic, it is written by Satan to distract Muslims from a straight path.

A Christian will claim that Quran is a version of the Bible written by Mohammad (pbuh) .But our Prophet was illetrate and I must point out to our Christian frind that Arabs were not an enemy of Jews of Christian,so if the Prophet taught Christianity or Judaism or Islam to arabs,it made no difference to them.So if Prophet Muhammad could have only copied Bible and claimed to be a Biblical Prophet,he would be accepted by Arabs. But we find that Islam goes against the shirk and anthropomorphism of Christianity/

The difference between a sect and religion is these that a sect of Islam will not be in hell for eternity, but if you follow a religion other than Islam, Hell forever. But you seem to believe that there are some good Christians who can be in heaven, this goes against Quran.

3.85: And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers

This Perennialism is very destructive. Only a Christian or a Muslim will be saved. Don’t fool people that all humans will share heaven.

Say: "O People of the Book! do ye disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah," Quran 5.5

O People of the Book! there hath come to you Our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book.

[16] Wherewith Allah guideth all who seek His good pleasure to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His Will, unto the light, guideth them to a Path that is Straight. Quran 5.15,16

"Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, 'Trinity.' Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs" (4:171)

"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is but a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. God's curse be on them; how they are deluded away from the Truth! They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of God, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary. Yet they were commanded to worship but One God: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him! (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)" (9:30-31).

Say: "O People of the Book! why reject ye the Signs of Allah, when Allah is Himself witness to all ye do?"

[99] Say: "O ye People of the Book! why obstruct ye those who believe, from the path of Allah, seeking to make it crooked, while ye were yourselves witnesses (to Allah's Covenant)? But Allah is not unmindful of all that ye do." Quran 3.98,99

Ye People of the Book! why reject ye the Signs of Allah, of which ye are (yourselves) witnesses?

[71] Ye People of the Book! why do ye clothe Truth with falsehood, and conceal the Truth, while ye have knowledge? Quran 3.70,71

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Can do anything/everything is different than god can become everything/anything as long as he wills it.

God has some attributes that cannot undergo changes/unchangeable. No matter what you think God is capable of, he is not capable of certain thing and not because he's powerless.

Allah is capable of everything, the word "can't" is not compatible with Allah in any way.

hence, this statement:

he is not capable of certain thing and not because he's powerless.

is totally wrong. He is capable of all. Whatever we can imagine and whatever we can't. There are no limits to Allah's abilities, and again. Qadir 3ala kul shay .. that's kul shay .. every thing .. it's an absolute statement. Allah is absolute, and the only reason he does not do something is because He chose not to. Saying that Allah swt is not capable of something is wrong and limiting Him.

again: Allah is capable of all. that includes everything we can imagine or even think of, as well as what is beyond our imagination. kul = all

He is All-Powerful Limitless Powerful He is capable of more than more . Allah Akbar

(wasalam)

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I am not debating here the misuse of scripture. Zionists kill thousands of Palestinian children and claim that they are following the Bible. So any scripture can be used for worldly purpose.

You said earlier that you believed Christianity is satanic. Now that is a very big fat takfiri statement that goes against the ayas i posted before.

I am debating here the authenticity of Bible. If it is not authentic, it is written by Satan to distract Muslims from a straight path.

Our Quran says that we are to believe in it, even while we know that there things hidden in it.

A Christian will claim that Quran is a version of the Bible written by Mohammad (pbuh) .But our Prophet was illetrate and I must point out to our Christian frind that Arabs were not an enemy of Jews of Christian,so if the Prophet taught Christianity or Judaism or Islam to arabs,it made no difference to them.So if Prophet Muhammad could have only copied Bible and claimed to be a Biblical Prophet,he would be accepted by Arabs. But we find that Islam goes against the shirk and anthropomorphism of Christianity/

There is no point going against clear verses of quran that tell us how to talk with Christians, and to respect them and respect the books as our own, and understand that they can go to heaven, while we can go to hell. We should not take heaven for granted. And Quran states how they can go to heaven.

The difference between a sect and religion is these that a sect of Islam will not be in hell for eternity, but if you follow a religion other than Islam, Hell forever. But you seem to believe that there are some good Christians who can be in heaven, this goes against Quran.

references? as far as i understand the munafiqoon and hypocrites are going to be in the worse situation in hell than open polytheists and kuffar in sha Allah. sect of Islam is that you claim to be muslim when you're not, other than one sect that claims genuinely. Surat Munafiqoon http://quran.com/63

also,

“Verily, the hypocrites will be in the lowest depth (grade) of the Fire; no helper will you find for them (al-Nisaa’ 4:145)

.. that's for the sufiani sect of "Muslims"

3.85: And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers

are you a wahabi? There are ahl kitab that are good people as i showed you before from the quran. If you chose to only chose the unforgiving aspects of life to do takfir and spread hatred fitan and division, the chances are that this will be your fate. May God guide you. I don't know why you are ignoring the clear ayat i pointed out before, and maybe see that true ahl kitaab could possibly be accepted as muslims. And you are not to judge them, Allah will. So worry about yourself only and your own religion.

This Perennialism is very destructive. Only a Christian or a Muslim will be saved. Don’t fool people that all humans will share heaven.

Say: "O People of the Book! do ye disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah," Quran 5.5

O People of the Book! there hath come to you Our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book.

[16] Wherewith Allah guideth all who seek His good pleasure to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His Will, unto the light, guideth them to a Path that is Straight. Quran 5.15,16

"Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, 'Trinity.' Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs" (4:171)

"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is but a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. God's curse be on them; how they are deluded away from the Truth! They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of God, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary. Yet they were commanded to worship but One God: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him! (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)" (9:30-31).

Say: "O People of the Book! why reject ye the Signs of Allah, when Allah is Himself witness to all ye do?"

[99] Say: "O ye People of the Book! why obstruct ye those who believe, from the path of Allah, seeking to make it crooked, while ye were yourselves witnesses (to Allah's Covenant)? But Allah is not unmindful of all that ye do." Quran 3.98,99

Ye People of the Book! why reject ye the Signs of Allah, of which ye are (yourselves) witnesses?

[71] Ye People of the Book! why do ye clothe Truth with falsehood, and conceal the Truth, while ye have knowledge? Quran 3.70,71

OK,

1 - you did not prove in any way that the religion of ahl kitab, or their kotob are satanic.

2 - you chose ayat that condemn and are upset with the ahl kitaab ( people, not their religion ), while ignoring the ones that say we are to be merciful with them ( and point out that we have the same God .. did you do that? or did you say that their god is satan? by saying that their religion is satanic? May Allah forgive you and let's seek refuge in Allah from the satan, all together, with our Christian and Jewish brothers too!!! ). While at the same time it is in the sunna of Allah to be Rahman and Raheem.

Again, that is your choice. You want to be takfiri and generalize against the religions of Jesus and Moses and all the prophets before the last one, and call it satanic .. go ahead. But i told you not to do that, and that it's wrong. As muslims we have to believe in their religion as our own, and if SOME of their followers messed up, that's not our problem. Worry about our so-called muslims who are messing up for 1400 years. And most of all worry about yourself. And it is important that you somehow take back / make up for / ask Allah for forgiveness / ask the good ahl Kitaab for forgiveness / etc. for your false statement that

I believes that Christianity is satanic

and while you're at it you can also ask for Allah swt to forgive everybody else on this forum and myself for my mistakes.

i don't know how much longer i will be arguing with you about this, after showing your positive ayat that are clearly telling us that there are good Christians and Jews, and that we are to talk to them in a good way, and that we must believe in their books and what was revealed to them. Even if many of them and many of us are astray. (that's why we also have to ask in every prayer for Allah to prevent us from become maghdub alaihum wala daaleen .. the wahabis will tell you that's only for jews and christians, but if that was the case, then why do we need to ask Allah to not make us among the ones who have wrath upon them or are lost? )

(wasalam)

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(salam)

You said earlier that you believed Christianity is satanic

.

Jesus called the founder of Christian Church as Satan. Would you question his judgment? And how was Peter misleading Muslims on the path of Satanic Christianity?

Matthew 16:23 But he turned and said to Peter, t“Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.

Mark 8:33 But turning and seeing his disciples, he rebuked Peter and said, “Get behind me, Satan! For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man

Our Quran says that we are to believe in it, even while we know that there things hidden in it

It is talking about the uncorrupted injeel and Torah not this manmade book. Only the Quran will show them the straight path

O People of the Book! there hath come to you Our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book.

[16] Wherewith Allah guideth all who seek His good pleasure to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His Will, unto the light, guideth them to a Path that is Straight. Quran 5.15,16

There is no point going against clear verses of quran that tell us how to talk with Christians, and to respect them and respect the books as our own, and understand that they can go to heaven, while we can go to hell. We should not take heaven for granted. And Quran states how they can go to heaven.

the Christians -any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteous - on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

5:69

"Any who believe" has conditions. Saying Jesus is god, and then God has a son, and that you are guaranteed paradise in the hereafter, and that the devil is a fallen angel, and that the prophet Muhammad saaw is not really a prophet, and that the bible is infallible, and that there is such a thing as original sin, and that you can make images of god, and that one can pray by singing and dancing in church, and celebrating pagan holidays as a part of your own...are not part of those conditions.Allah puts curses on anyone who believes that Jesus was the son of God.So I will also curse such a person.Anyone can go against the orders of Allah and love a Christian but I cannot.

Technically, both of these verses contradicts each other

"Surely, those who believe, those who are the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians - whosoever believed in Allaah and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Al-Maaidah5:69)

and

"And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers" (Aal 'Imraan 3:85)

Muslims can accept this contradiction and admit that Quran is not dovine or the only way to resolve it is to say that Allaah points out that whoever of the previous nations did well and was obedient, will have a good reward, and this will be the case for everyone who follows the Unlettered Prophet [Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) until the Hour comes - he will have eternal happiness, and they will not fear what they are going to face, nor will they grieve for what they have left behind

If this ayah was for the nations that lived before the Prophet (SAW) why is it then using the present tense. This (to me) also seems to imply that the Christians were only saved before the time of Muhammad. Since Muhammad wasn't born until 600 years after Jesus the two verses (2:62 and 5:69) would not have been valid at the time they were written. Plus, 18 verses before 5:69 is verse 5.51 that reads "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.".

Clearly, 5:69 ("Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good - they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.") was written after 5.51, Muhammad (pbuh) was already alive 5.69 doesn't appear to be talking about people in the past or it would read "those who were Jews" rather than "those who are Jews"

references?

The beliefs of Shia Muslims regarding Hellfire are as follows:

Says the Shaykh Abu Ja'far: Our belief concerning Paradise is that it is a permanent abode (daru'l-baqa')....And our belief concerning Hell is that it is a place of degradation or that of revenge on unbelievers and sinners. None but the polytheists will reside therein permanently. As for those monotheists (ahlu't-tawhid) who are sinners, they will be taken out of it by the mercy of Allah and the intercession which they obtain. .... And our belief concerning Heaven and Hell is that they are both created things. Verily the Prophet entered Paradise, and saw the Fire, at the time of his ascension. (On The Beliefs of the Shi'a Imamiya [a translation of "Risalat al I`tiqadat) - CHAPTER 29: THE BELIEF CONCERNING THE GARDEN [al-janna] AND THE FIRE [an-nar], Shaykh Saduq Muhammad ibn `Ali ibn Musa ibn Babawayhi, d. 381 AH)

Imam Rabbani, Mujaddid Alf Thani, Shaykh Ahmed Faruqi Sirhindhi rahmatullah alayhi wrote:

"It was declared in a Hadith that this Ummah would part into 73 groups, 72 of which would go to Hell. This Hadith informs us that the 72 groups will be tormented in the Fire of Hell. It does not inform us that they will remain in torment eternally. Remaining in the torment of Hell Fire eternally is for those who do not have Iman. That is, it is for disbelievers. The 72 groups, on account of their corrupt beliefs, will go to Hell and will burn as much as the corruptness of their beliefs.

One group, the 73rd, will be saved from Hell Fire because their belief is not corrupt. If among the members of this one group there are those who committed evil deeds and if these evil deeds of theirs have not been forgiven through repentance or intercession, it is possible that these, too, will burn in Hell as much as their sins. All of those who are in the 72 groups will go to Hell.

But none of them will remain in Hell eternally. Not all of those who are in this one group will go to Hell. Of these only those who have committed evil deeds will go to Hell. The 72 reported groups of bid'ah, which will go to Hell, should not be called disbelievers, because they are Ahl al-Qibla (people of the Qibla in prayer). But, of these, the ones who disbelieve those facts in the Deen that are indispensably required to be believed, as well as those who deny the rules of the Shari'ah which every Muslim has heard and knows, become disbelievers."

(Maktubaat, Vol. 3, Letter 38)

are you a wahabi? There are ahl kitab that are good people as i showed you before from the quran. If you chose to only chose the unforgiving aspects of life to do takfir and spread hatred fitan and division, the chances are that this will be your fate

Yes I am. But I am open to suggestion. If any Shia Imam said in a sahi Hadith that Christian and Jews will go to Heaven, I will accept it. If a shia mujhtahid decrees that their meat is Halal and a Muslim can marry them, I will accept your ruling. But if this is your own opinion, you can act on it but don’t teach me to follow you.

Q11) Which other religion can a Muslim marry from?

A11) Marriage of a Muslim man with a Christian or a Jewish woman is not permissible as a measure of obligatory precaution.

As for meat, fat and their extracts, they are haram and cannot be used.

Grand Ayatollah Sayyid, Ali Husaini Sistani)

( and point out that we have the same God .. did you do that? or did you say that their god is satan? by saying that their religion is satanic? May Allah forgive you and let's seek refuge in Allah from the satan, all together, with our Christian and Jewish brothers too!!!

I don’t believe that Allah and the God of corrupted Bible are the same. God of Bible takes Human form and wrestles with Jacobs and when He cannot defeat Jacob with normal human strength, the God cheated and used Magic to maim him for life. If you believe that this is the Allah of Quran, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and the Imams (ra) have mercy on your soul

Genesis 32 And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day. 25 When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob’s hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him

An Allah, who sends evil spirit to Saul, is maybe your concept of God not mines. And I have not started on NT yet.

"And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him." (I Samuel 16:23)

"And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand." (I Samuel 19:9)

m
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Jesus called the founder of Christian Church as Satan. Would you question his judgment? And how was Peter misleading Muslims on the path of Satanic Christianity?

Matthew 16:23 But he turned and said to Peter, t“Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.

Mark 8:33 But turning and seeing his disciples, he rebuked Peter and said, “Get behind me, Satan! For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man

Wow, two books say the same thing, are you trying to prove their credibility? Actually you don't understand the reason behind the phrase. King Solomon should have used it way back when. It is not a phrase used on humans, but on what influences them at the time. It's a phase that's come in handy.

So I will also curse such a person. Anyone can go against the orders of Allah and love a Christian but I cannot.
You would not be the first Muslim to curse Christians, My Father and I included. These curses are noticed and not from God. Govern yourself accordingly. You don't know enough about it. Edited by Son of Placid
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Wow, two books say the same thing, are you trying to prove their credibility? Actually you don't understand the reason behind the phrase. King Solomon should have used it way back when. It is not a phrase used on humans, but on what influences them at the time. It's a phase that's come in handy.

So peter was saved from the temptation of Satan by Jesus? Ok, but after Jesus, there was no one to stop Peter from following Satan. And he did follow the Satan

But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood self-condemned (Galatians 2:11).

So there was nothing that could stop Satan from altering Christianity. All the Gospels were modeled after Mark, and it was written by Peter or influenced by him

“And the elder used to say this, Mark became Peter’s interpreter and wrote accurately all that he remembered, not, indeed, in order, of the things said and done by the Lord. For he had not heard the Lord, nor had followed him, but later on, followed Peter, who used to give teaching as necessity demanded but not making, as it were, an arrangement of the Lord’s oracles, so that Mark did nothing wrong in thus writing down single points as he remembered them. For to one thing he gave attention, to leave out nothing of what he had heard and to make no false statements in them.” (Ecclesiastical History Book 2 Chapter 15, Book 3 Chapter 30 and Book 6 Chapter 14) Eusebius of Caesarea

Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, handed on his preaching to us in written form” Against Heresies” (Book 3 Chapter 1), Irenaeus

Can you give me a verse where Jesus promised that all the writing about him will be inspired? Don’t quote Paul as I don’t trust that Roman spy.

How Satan has tricked Christians into believing that Jesus is the Son of god, is my favorite topic.

êḵ nā·p̄al·tā miš·šā·ma·yim hê·lêl ben- šā·ḥar; niḡ·da‘·tā lā·’ā·reṣ, ḥō·w·lêš ‘al- gō·w·yim.

There is no Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12.But it is translated as the only place in the bible with Lucifer, by KJV. Why?

King James Bible

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Because the correct translation causes problems.

How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

The following passages in the show the "morning star" as Jesus Christ! But the Bible just called the fallen creature of Isaiah 14:12 "morning star". Satan and Jesus are ONE in Bible!

NIV: Revelation 22:16,

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you [1] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

NIV: 2 Peter 1:19,

And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

NIV: Revelation 2:28--

I will also give him the morning star.

You would not be the first Muslim to curse Christians, My Father and I included. These curses are noticed and not from God. Govern yourself accordingly. You don't know enough about it.

I only hate Christianity because for the first time in human history, they have made sinning allowed in religion. Though Christians will always debate this, all sinners will be saved by Christ.

"There is

therefore now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus." (Rom.

8:1)

No Christian will ever stand trial at the Judgment for sins committed in this lifetime (Revelation 20:11-15). This is "why" there will be 2 separate and distinct judgments: one for the SAVED, and one for the UNSAVED.

The Bible does not forbid premarital sex. There is no passage of the Bible that references premarital sex as a sin against God. The association between sin and premarital sex is a new Christian idea. The New Testament says nothing about premarital sex. Some versions though do mistranslate the Greek word pornei, which means sexual immorality, into the English word fornication, which means sexual intercourse with someone who one is not married to. Pornei, meaning sexual immorality, included such things as having sex with a woman during menstruations, adultery, temple prostitution, and pederasty.

So Christians can go to nightclubs or a disco, pickup a girl, spend the night with her, without feeling any guilt because

Jesus paid it all,

all to Him I owe;

Sin had left a crimson stain,

He washed it white as snow!

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