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Why Werent The Imams Names Mentioned In Quran?

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(salam)

If that is sarcasm then it clearly shows your true colors and hypocrisy, because the actual incidence has already been described by the Holy Prophet (saw) in Tafsir ibn Kathir (ref to bro Rasuls post #94)

Ibn Kathir has said that nothing in Quran has been specially revealed for Ali. Ibn Kathir or any other exegesist is not a Prophet so that one should believe whatever the say in the name of Prophet. This accident is too whimsical to be real.

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Why Werent The Imams Names Mentioned In Quran?

Well with regards OP 's question, would you think Quran would have been safe if Imam's names were mentioned in it.

This is the Divine intelligene. Somebody asked our sixth or fifth Imam the same Question they replied the enemies of Ahlulbayt (as) would have destroyed the Quran.

Even when not mentioned the Ummah took their rights, burnt their house, killed all 11 of them with the exception of Imam Mehdi (as).

Do you not know what Mawiya (LA) did when Imam Ali (as) was winning the battle. Did he not raise the Quran on spears. Imagine what would have happened if Imam Ali's or his son's name would have been in Quran. He would have changed it completely.

Here is the truth what Ummah did to the Imam's

Edited by zakzaki

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(salam)

so I am here bro. how are you? :)

Ok I again explain you what I meant to ask.

Pickthall: Your guardian can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poordue, and bow down (in prayer).

So this is what you think .. ok lets see it one by one.

"Your guardian can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who estabalish worship and pay the poordue."

This is very easy to understand. So there is nothing to argue. Just want to remind you. Masha Allah you're a five 5 times prayer. May Allah bless you. so you know very well we do bow down in Salat. agreed?

"and bow down" - forget about bracket. It is just an addition. so according to you. you don't accept Tafseer.

So my question was simple. Why Bow down was again stated in the Ayat when Prayer is written before it. What does it mean? I meant Allah simply saying "Pray Salat, Pay Zakat" so why after Zakat it is Bow Down? Bow Down is already included in Salat. We do Bow Down only and only in Salat (and only to Allah).

Salat and Zakat are both fundamental of Islam. so these are very important. Why separately Bow Down (as it is included in Salat).

so my point is that the translations you're showing me does not make sense. as I proved Allah can't say same thing twice in the same Ayat.

Hope you got my point. or I will keep explaining you this. Because even a 5 year kid will understand this. The kid will ask question . "Allah tells us in the Ayat to pray Salat, Zakat ... " so this is understandable thing. then why Allah says "and Bow Down" separately" ..

and yes. I can't accept Tafseers. Because you don't believe in Tafseers. I can even show a lot of Tafseers of this Ayat. will you agree?? ok lets see this website

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=86&tSoraNo=5&tAyahNo=55&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

Just want to tell you, This is not Shia Tafseer etc. If you bring Tafseers. I can bring a lot of Tafseers about this Ayat. The strange thing is that you don't accept but there are many Sunnis who've already accepted that this Ayat is only about Maula Ali (as).

Also read this

Abu Bakr al-Tamimi informed us> ‘Abd Allah ibn Muhammad ibn Ja‘far> al-Husayn ibn Muhammad ibn Abi Hurayrah> ‘Abd Allah ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhab> Muhammad ibn al-Aswad> Muhammad ibn Marwan> Muhammad ibn al-Sa’ib> Abu Salih> Ibn ‘Abbas

This is a BIG chain. Alas! you even don't accept your Sunnis belief.

Thanks,

(wsalam)

Here we go with TAFSEERS and the BIG LIST you gave me thanks

I see you like to copy paste so I will do same

1. Narrated by Ath-Thabaraniy in Al-Ausath no. 6232 from hadits ‘Ammaar (bin Yaasir). In it exist a narrator called Khaalid bin Yaziid Al-‘Umariy, he is a liar.Ibnu Ma’in said : “Liar”. Abu Haatim said : “Liar, his hadith is abandoned” (kadzdzaab, dzaahibul-hadiits)” [Al-Jarh wat-Ta’diil 3/360 and Al-Miizaan 1/646 – via Majma’ul-Bahrain 1/279 & 6/20 by Al-Haitsami]. Ishaq bin ‘Abdillah bin Muhammad bin ‘Aliy bin Husain, not found his biography. Al-Hasan bin Zaid bin Al-Hasan bin ‘Aliy bin Abi Thaalib Abu Muhammad, he is trustworthy but sometimes err (shaduuq, yahimu) – as mention in At-Taqrib.

2. Narrated by Al-Wahidiy (no. 397), from Muhammad bin Marwaan, from Muhammad bin Saaib, from Abu Shaalih, from Ibnu ‘Abbaas with marfu’. But the sanad is not shahih at all. Muhammad bin Marwaan, he is As-Suddiy Ash-Shaghiir, his hadith is abandoned, accuse of lying (matruk, muttaham bil-kidzb). Ibnu Saaib, he is Al-Kalbiy, known as liar. Please refer to Al-Miizaan. Abu Shaalih is Baadzaam; weak narrator.Ibnu Hibban said he did not hear hadith from Ibnu ‘Abbas [Tahdziibut-Tahdziib, 1/416-417].

3. Narrated by ‘Abdurrazzaq as in Tafsir Ibnu Katsiir (5/266), from Ibnu ‘Abbas. Ibnu Katsir said : “Its sanad contain ‘Abdul-Wahhaab bin Mujaahid, a person who cannot be made as hujjah". Adz-Dzahabi said in Al-Miizaan (2/682) : “Yahya said : ‘His hadith is not written’. Ahmad said : ‘He is nothing'(laisa bi-syai’)’. Ibnu ‘Adiy said : ‘Generally there is no mutaba’ah in whatever he narrated. Al-Bukhari said : ‘ The ulama said : He did not hear hadith from his father.

4. Narrated Ath-Thabari (no. 12214) from Mujaahid as mursal, in its sanad contain Ghaalib bin ‘Ubaidillah, his hadith is abandoned. Al-Bukhari said : “Munkarul-hadiits, heard from Mujaahid” [At-Taariikh Al-Kabiir 7/101 – via Tafsir Ibni Katsiir 5/265]. Refer to footnote Asy-Syaikh Ahmad Syaakir about this atsar in tafsir Ath-Thabariy 10/426]. He (Ath-Thabari – no. 12211) also narrated from Abu Ja’far, but the narration is mu’dlal.

5. Ibnu Katsir said (5/264-265I) : “Ibnu Marduyah (Mardawaih) narrated hadits ‘Ali bin Abi Thaalib radliyallaahu ‘anhu, ‘Ammaar bin Yaasir, dan Abu Raafi’; but it is not authenthic all the narration because of the weak sanad and majhul of narrators.

6. Narrated by Ibnu Abi Haatim from Salmah bin Kahiil (hal. 1162 no. 6551). But this sanad is munqathi’ between Salmah bin Kahiil and ‘Ali bin Abi Thaalib. Salmah although tsiqah have slight tendency to shia[lihat At-Tahdziib 4/156-157].

These shows all the narration is weak, extremely weak and even fabricated. The weakness is agree by muhaqqiq of Lubaabun-Nuquul

It sure is very strang my brother when you KEEP TWISTING in your mind that UNKNOWN thought of Imamate your whole explanation is absurd because you cannot equate bow down with salah when Quran is clearly linking the two together cos its THE ACTION of the salah AS IS CLEARLY EXPLAINED

But .....you my brother because you have NOTHING , ZILCH on Imamate CLEAR CUT are using weak and daif hadiths to support the THEORY OF ALI RADHYIALLAHUAN AND THE BEGGER to a quranic ayah which HAS COMPLETELY NOTHING, ZILCH ON IMAMATE OF ALI RADHYIALLAHUAN OR IMAMATE ITSELF

Like I keep saying its that simple and easy my brother you just make it hard for yourself trying to ADD meanings to words that have a completely different meaning or understanding

Take the words for as they are and if it doesn't make sense to you then CHILL sit back relax and think long and hard.........,ITS Allah SUBHANAWATALLAHS BOOK!!!

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Yes, I believe it is possible. A beggar who comes in Allah's house and asking for help. so people should not help him? Allah did not only sent you in this world for just Pray. We also need to help His creations when they need help. And Maula Ali (as) not an ordinary man. I know that's what you don't believe. There is a connection between Wali and Allah. We are just an ordinary people. We are not Wali. And we don't know how that beggar was asking. I mean how much he needed money/help... etc.

I think you did not look at this website.

http://www.altafsir....=0&LanguageId=2

Tafseer by Asbab Al-Nuzul by Al-Wahidi

Look at this chain:

Abu Bakr al-Tamimi informed us> ‘Abd Allah ibn Muhammad ibn Ja‘far> al-Husayn ibn Muhammad ibn Abi Hurayrah> ‘Abd Allah ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhab> Muhammad ibn al-Aswad> Muhammad ibn Marwan> Muhammad ibn al-Sa’ib> Abu Salih> Ibn ‘Abbas

The strange thing is that you're saying there is no Verse about Maula Ali (as) but believe Verses about Hazrat Abu Bakar (cave, etc). Even his name is not written. The obvious thing is that you just don't wanna believe that this Verse was sent for Maula Ali (as).

So there is no really reason to argue about this thing because you just don't wanna believe this.

Love creation of Allah, and then Allah will love you.

(wasalam)

Lol brother in your mind you can believe ANYTHING let's put it in perspective shall we??

ALI radhyiallahuans imamate according to this

[5:55] Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the Believers – those who establish regular prayers and pay charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).

?????

Now the two in the cave

Quran states: If you will not aid him, Allah certainly aided him when those who disbelieved expelled him, he being the second of the two, when they were both in the cave, when he said to his companion: Grieve not, surely Allah is with us. So Allah sent down His tranquility upon him and strengthened him with hosts which you did not see, and made lowest the word of those who disbelieved; and the word of Allah, that is the highest; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.(9:40)

Do you see how EASY it is without a tafseer or anything look at the two above verses

The first is about Ali radhyiallahuan? Whers the beggar? I don't think so until you start adding your own meanings and stories

The second you don't need ANY TAFSEERS it's clearly stated by Allah subhanawatallah

THE TWO IN THE CAVE

Both shia and Sunni know this story and its being told by the Almighty Himself

It's that EASY my brother simple Quran is simple not hard so you can read and learn off it EVERYDAY!!!

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Here we go with TAFSEERS and the BIG LIST you gave me thanks

I see you like to copy paste so I will do same

1. Narrated by Ath-Thabaraniy in Al-Ausath no. 6232 from hadits ‘Ammaar (bin Yaasir). In it exist a narrator called Khaalid bin Yaziid Al-‘Umariy, he is a liar.Ibnu Ma’in said : “Liar”. Abu Haatim said : “Liar, his hadith is abandoned” (kadzdzaab, dzaahibul-hadiits)” [Al-Jarh wat-Ta’diil 3/360 and Al-Miizaan 1/646 – via Majma’ul-Bahrain 1/279 & 6/20 by Al-Haitsami]. Ishaq bin ‘Abdillah bin Muhammad bin ‘Aliy bin Husain, not found his biography. Al-Hasan bin Zaid bin Al-Hasan bin ‘Aliy bin Abi Thaalib Abu Muhammad, he is trustworthy but sometimes err (shaduuq, yahimu) – as mention in At-Taqrib.

2. Narrated by Al-Wahidiy (no. 397), from Muhammad bin Marwaan, from Muhammad bin Saaib, from Abu Shaalih, from Ibnu ‘Abbaas with marfu’. But the sanad is not shahih at all. Muhammad bin Marwaan, he is As-Suddiy Ash-Shaghiir, his hadith is abandoned, accuse of lying (matruk, muttaham bil-kidzb). Ibnu Saaib, he is Al-Kalbiy, known as liar. Please refer to Al-Miizaan. Abu Shaalih is Baadzaam; weak narrator.Ibnu Hibban said he did not hear hadith from Ibnu ‘Abbas [Tahdziibut-Tahdziib, 1/416-417].

3. Narrated by ‘Abdurrazzaq as in Tafsir Ibnu Katsiir (5/266), from Ibnu ‘Abbas. Ibnu Katsir said : “Its sanad contain ‘Abdul-Wahhaab bin Mujaahid, a person who cannot be made as hujjah". Adz-Dzahabi said in Al-Miizaan (2/682) : “Yahya said : ‘His hadith is not written’. Ahmad said : ‘He is nothing'(laisa bi-syai’)’. Ibnu ‘Adiy said : ‘Generally there is no mutaba’ah in whatever he narrated. Al-Bukhari said : ‘ The ulama said : He did not hear hadith from his father.

4. Narrated Ath-Thabari (no. 12214) from Mujaahid as mursal, in its sanad contain Ghaalib bin ‘Ubaidillah, his hadith is abandoned. Al-Bukhari said : “Munkarul-hadiits, heard from Mujaahid” [At-Taariikh Al-Kabiir 7/101 – via Tafsir Ibni Katsiir 5/265]. Refer to footnote Asy-Syaikh Ahmad Syaakir about this atsar in tafsir Ath-Thabariy 10/426]. He (Ath-Thabari – no. 12211) also narrated from Abu Ja’far, but the narration is mu’dlal.

5. Ibnu Katsir said (5/264-265I) : “Ibnu Marduyah (Mardawaih) narrated hadits ‘Ali bin Abi Thaalib radliyallaahu ‘anhu, ‘Ammaar bin Yaasir, dan Abu Raafi’; but it is not authenthic all the narration because of the weak sanad and majhul of narrators.

6. Narrated by Ibnu Abi Haatim from Salmah bin Kahiil (hal. 1162 no. 6551). But this sanad is munqathi’ between Salmah bin Kahiil and ‘Ali bin Abi Thaalib. Salmah although tsiqah have slight tendency to shia[lihat At-Tahdziib 4/156-157].

These shows all the narration is weak, extremely weak and even fabricated. The weakness is agree by muhaqqiq of Lubaabun-Nuquul

It sure is very strang my brother when you KEEP TWISTING in your mind that UNKNOWN thought of Imamate your whole explanation is absurd because you cannot equate bow down with salah when Quran is clearly linking the two together cos its THE ACTION of the salah AS IS CLEARLY EXPLAINED

But .....you my brother because you have NOTHING , ZILCH on Imamate CLEAR CUT are using weak and daif hadiths to support the THEORY OF ALI RADHYIALLAHUAN AND THE BEGGER to a quranic ayah which HAS COMPLETELY NOTHING, ZILCH ON IMAMATE OF ALI RADHYIALLAHUAN OR IMAMATE ITSELF

Like I keep saying its that simple and easy my brother you just make it hard for yourself trying to ADD meanings to words that have a completely different meaning or understanding

Take the words for as they are and if it doesn't make sense to you then CHILL sit back relax and think long and hard.........,ITS Allah SUBHANAWATALLAHS BOOK!!!

(salam)

first of all, I did not copy anything except Tafseer. I always write everything myself. and I know you copied all these things from

[URL Edited]/index.php?showtopic=15627

Anyways, that's not an issue. I am not twisting anything. You've still not got my point. and I think you did not check http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=86&tSoraNo=5&tAyahNo=55&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

Check it if you've not.

ok now back to Bow Down :) Lets make it little easy for you to understand.

"Salat, Zakat and Bow Down" - We all know better Salat and Zakat are only fundamentals stated in the Ayat. Bow Down.. so my another question is why only Bow Down? why not Sujood? Don't you think Sujood is better than Bow Down?

I am saying this because of

“The closest that a servant is to his Lord is when he is in prostration.” (Muslim)

“No! Do not obey him. But prostrate and draw near [to Allah].” (

96:19

)

So simple thing is why Bow Down here? the thing is that you don't want to accept my logic. It is a simple logic.

(wasalam)

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(salam)

first of all, I did not copy anything except Tafseer. I always write everything myself. and I know you copied all these things from

[URL Edited]/index.php?showtopic=15627

Anyways, that's not an issue. I am not twisting anything. You've still not got my point. and I think you did not check http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=86&tSoraNo=5&tAyahNo=55&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

Check it if you've not.

ok now back to Bow Down :) Lets make it little easy for you to understand.

"Salat, Zakat and Bow Down" - We all know better Salat and Zakat are only fundamentals stated in the Ayat. Bow Down.. so my another question is why only Bow Down? why not Sujood? Don't you think Sujood is better than Bow Down?

I am saying this because of

“The closest that a servant is to his Lord is when he is in prostration.” (Muslim)

“No! Do not obey him. But prostrate and draw near [to Allah].” (

96:19

)

So simple thing is why Bow Down here? the thing is that you don't want to accept my logic. It is a simple logic.

(wasalam)

Yep I get many a information thanks to that site it's a great site it's brilliant for knocking you back down a few steps!!

Anyway it's words my brother sujood , bow down ,prostrate all meaning the SAME don't look for HIDDEN meanings or SUMMERT to acknowledge with your false logic it's exactly what it is.....false logic false ideas and false meanings hence you cannot equate bowing with prayer cos your LOGICS messed up!!

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Lol brother in your mind you can believe ANYTHING let's put it in perspective shall we??

ALI radhyiallahuans imamate according to this

[5:55] Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the Believers – those who establish regular prayers and pay charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).

?????

Now the two in the cave

Quran states: If you will not aid him, Allah certainly aided him when those who disbelieved expelled him, he being the second of the two, when they were both in the cave, when he said to his companion: Grieve not, surely Allah is with us. So Allah sent down His tranquility upon him and strengthened him with hosts which you did not see, and made lowest the word of those who disbelieved; and the word of Allah, that is the highest; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.(9:40)

Do you see how EASY it is without a tafseer or anything look at the two above verses

The first is about Ali radhyiallahuan? Whers the beggar? I don't think so until you start adding your own meanings and stories

The second you don't need ANY TAFSEERS it's clearly stated by Allah subhanawatallah

THE TWO IN THE CAVE

Both shia and Sunni know this story and its being told by the Almighty Himself

It's that EASY my brother simple Quran is simple not hard so you can read and learn off it EVERYDAY!!!

Ok my question is to you that where it is written Hazrat Abu Bakar name? where is it in the Ayat? definitely not clearly in Ayat. I accept myself Abu Bakr was with The Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAWW) in the cave. I am not denying that. And this Ayat still not praising about Abu Bakar. Anyways, this is not our topic. So, lets not talk about this but In Sha Allah in some other topics.

ok so I asked where it is written Abu Bakar name? can you find in the Ayat? definitely not because it is not stated there. so my point is that to get in-dept we need to look at Hadiths/Tafseers. And if cave incident is accepted by Shia and Sunni both, then I would like to also tell you that Beggar incident is also accepted by Shia and Sunni. But there are few Sunni like you, who don't accept this. Prof. Tahir-ul-Qadri himself accepts this. And He is not Shia. That will be your issue if you don't like him. you like him or not. But he is a Sunni Muslim.

http://www26.brinkster.com/sdolshah1/wali555.htm

[5:55] Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the Believers – those who establish regular prayers and pay charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).

Please don't add other things like (in worship) and humbly. Because this is not in the Ayat. You're just adding yourself.

Other translations ( not Shakir )

Khalifa: [5:55] Your real allies are GOD and His messenger, and the believers who observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and they bow down.

Yusuf Ali: [5:55] Your (real) friends are (no less than) God, His Apostle, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).

Isn't it bad you're adding some words in the Ayat which is not there. YOU'RE DOING TAFSEER bro.

I am sorry brother, you can't understand A SIMPLE thing, because you don't want to. You just came here to refuse Shia Muslims belief. If you're so much interested in Shia belief. Study it better rather than believing some anti-shia websites. There is nothing like Anti-Sunni. Because we consider Sunni as Muslims. But you will find a lot of Anit-Shia websites. that's it :)

(wasalam)

Yep I get many a information thanks to that site it's a great site it's brilliant for knocking you back down a few steps!!

Anyway it's words my brother sujood , bow down ,prostrate all meaning the SAME don't look for HIDDEN meanings or SUMMERT to acknowledge with your false logic it's exactly what it is.....false logic false ideas and false meanings hence you cannot equate bowing with prayer cos your LOGICS messed up!!

wow!! so bow down and sujood same.. great!

Bow Down - Rukoo

Prostrate - Sujood

and in the Ayat, it is clearly stated Rukoo.. Don't use your logics here... because it does not make sense. I will agree when you show some Quranic Ayat to confirm Bow Down and Prostrate both are same.

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Ok my question is to you that where it is written Hazrat Abu Bakar name? where is it in the Ayat? definitely not clearly in Ayat. I accept myself Abu Bakr was with The Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAWW) in the cave. I am not denying that. And this Ayat still not praising about Abu Bakar. Anyways, this is not our topic. So, lets not talk about this but In Sha Allah in some other topics.

ok so I asked where it is written Abu Bakar name? can you find in the Ayat? definitely not because it is not stated there. so my point is that to get in-dept we need to look at Hadiths/Tafseers. And if cave incident is accepted by Shia and Sunni both, then I would like to also tell you that Beggar incident is also accepted by Shia and Sunni. But there are few Sunni like you, who don't accept this. Prof. Tahir-ul-Qadri himself accepts this. And He is not Shia. That will be your issue if you don't like him. you like him or not. But he is a Sunni Muslim.

http://www26.brinkster.com/sdolshah1/wali555.htm

[5:55] Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the Believers – those who establish regular prayers and pay charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).

Please don't add other things like (in worship) and humbly. Because this is not in the Ayat. You're just adding yourself.

Other translations ( not Shakir )

Khalifa: [5:55] Your real allies are GOD and His messenger, and the believers who observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and they bow down.

Yusuf Ali: [5:55] Your (real) friends are (no less than) God, His Apostle, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).

Isn't it bad you're adding some words in the Ayat which is not there. YOU'RE DOING TAFSEER bro.

I am sorry brother, you can't understand A SIMPLE thing, because you don't want to. You just came here to refuse Shia Muslims belief. If you're so much interested in Shia belief. Study it better rather than believing some anti-shia websites. There is nothing like Anti-Sunni. Because we consider Sunni as Muslims. But you will find a lot of Anit-Shia websites. that's it :)

(wasalam)

wow!! so bow down and sujood same.. great!

Bow Down - Rukoo

Prostrate - Sujood

and in the Ayat, it is clearly stated Rukoo.. Don't use your logics here... because it does not make sense. I will agree when you show some Quranic Ayat to confirm Bow Down and Prostrate both are same.

Lol brother you want quranic proof of......hazrath abu bakr radhyiallahuans name

And you want quranic proofs of...,,,,bow down and prostrate as same?

But after ALL THESE DAYS AND POSTS YOU STILL HAVEN'T GIVEN ME PROOF OF IMMAMATE IN QURAN????

Now that's ILLOGICAL this is what the typical response generates into , if you cannot answer then counter question

Round around we go

Lol

Good night brother

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Lol brother you want quranic proof of......hazrath abu bakr radhyiallahuans name

And you want quranic proofs of...,,,,bow down and prostrate as same?

But after ALL THESE DAYS AND POSTS YOU STILL HAVEN'T GIVEN ME PROOF OF IMMAMATE IN QURAN????

Now that's ILLOGICAL this is what the typical response generates into , if you cannot answer then counter question

Round around we go

Lol

Good night brother

So you're tired debating with me. I understand because you don't have anything to say. Yes. I want Quranic proof of Abu bakar name and also Rukoo and Sujood are same. I wan this :). There is only one Sahabi whose name in the Quran which can be easily proved... Zayd ibn Thabit.

I've already proved 5:55 but that's you who don't wanna to believe it. I've given you very simple logic but you the one who don't want to understand. See. I did not reject your other translations. But I only said they don't make sense because Rukoo is already a part of Salat then why it is stated after Salat? that's a simple question. and then you did not accept my logic so I asked another simple question. why Rukoo why not Sujood? and again you twisted that these are both same. so It means from now I will only do Rukoo. because both are same according to you. So I don't need to perform Sujood? so Rukoo is an alternative of Sujood. is it what you want to say?

(wasalam) and sweet dreams.

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So you're tired debating with me. I understand because you don't have anything to say. Yes. I want Quranic proof of Abu bakar name and also Rukoo and Sujood are same. I wan this :). There is only one Sahabi whose name in the Quran which can be easily proved... Zayd ibn Thabit.

I've already proved 5:55 but that's you who don't wanna to believe it. I've given you very simple logic but you the one who don't want to understand. See. I did not reject your other translations. But I only said they don't make sense because Rukoo is already a part of Salat then why it is stated after Salat? that's a simple question. and then you did not accept my logic so I asked another simple question. why Rukoo why not Sujood? and again you twisted that these are both same. so It means from now I will only do Rukoo. because both are same according to you. So I don't need to perform Sujood? so Rukoo is an alternative of Sujood. is it what you want to say?

(wasalam) and sweet dreams.

Yep sweet dreams kid too now that you have answered like the LION you are roaring on about sujoods and what not but..........still stook trying to explain IMAMATE by using words of bow down and prostrate and how it comes into your vicabulary

Lol well done

So after all that IMMAMATE is still something UNKNOWN in Quran as I still believe and you still cannot prove

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Yep sweet dreams kid too now that you have answered like the LION you are roaring on about sujoods and what not but..........still stook trying to explain IMAMATE by using words of bow down and prostrate and how it comes into your vicabulary

Lol well done

So after all that IMMAMATE is still something UNKNOWN in Quran as I still believe and you still cannot prove

ok so overall.. you did not answer me properly about Sujood, Rukoo, Abu Bakr name in the Holy Quran and few more.

as I told you so many times Imamat is there in Quran.. but you don't want to believe. Because you just DON'T want to believe. That's a simple answer. :shifty:

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That was a debate...? I don't think so...!!!

If you don't think so ;) sure for you! :D whatever you call it discussion, argument, debate etc... But you can read Blacknight posts and I asked so many questions to him.. but he has not answered me properly.

you want to answer ? if yes, just read all the posts of this thread. then we can start healthy discussion on this 5:55 incident topic.

Blacknights only know how to laugh in serious discussion... and write lol.. He does not know anything and he says we don't need Tafseer for Quran.

Well I have to say that imamah (12 infalliable Devine) imams was still NOT proven

sure, because you guys just don't believe it. Because it is not your belief. It is normal why you guys will accept this... because if you accept this then it will damage your belief about Caliph etc. Study about Shia Belief rather than looking at Anti-Shia websites/forums etc.

Edited by akramabbas

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It's not anti-shia it's common sense if you were to give a convert the Quran they would have no idea about imamah (which is usool if I'm not mistaken in shiaism) rather the convert would know much more about the importance of salah (which is furoo in shiaism if I'm not mistaken).....correct me if I'm wrong please....regards

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Yes, I believe it is possible. A beggar who comes in Allah's house and asking for help. so people should not help him? Allah did not only sent you in this world for just Pray. We also need to help His creations when they need help. And Maula Ali (as) not an ordinary man. I know that's what you don't believe. There is a connection between Wali and Allah. We are just an ordinary people. We are not Wali. And we don't know how that beggar was asking. I mean how much he needed money/help... etc.

I think you did not look at this website.

http://www.altafsir....=0&LanguageId=2

Tafseer by Asbab Al-Nuzul by Al-Wahidi

Look at this chain:

Abu Bakr al-Tamimi informed us> ‘Abd Allah ibn Muhammad ibn Ja‘far> al-Husayn ibn Muhammad ibn Abi Hurayrah> ‘Abd Allah ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhab> Muhammad ibn al-Aswad> Muhammad ibn Marwan> Muhammad ibn al-Sa’ib> Abu Salih> Ibn ‘Abbas

The strange thing is that you're saying there is no Verse about Maula Ali (as) but believe Verses about Hazrat Abu Bakar (cave, etc). Even his name is not written. The obvious thing is that you just don't wanna believe that this Verse was sent for Maula Ali (as).

So there is no really reason to argue about this thing because you just don't wanna believe this.

Love creation of Allah, and then Allah will love you.

(wasalam)

So its possible because Ali was Wali and a Wali can give a ring in charity while praying. With such reasoning you can also justify trinity or any other irrational dogma.

Risalat is basic part of faith but as names of all 124,000 prophets are not mentioned in Quran one of my friend has refused to accept them as prophet whose names are not in Quran. Makes sense huh?

Got anything known as common sense?No one becomes a Kafir if he does not know the specific names of the prophets except the ones mentioned in Quran. One just has to affirm that he/she believes in all the prophets sent by God.It is not binding upon you to follow any prophet other than Muhammad. The issue of Imams is different. You must know the specific Imam of your time and must follow him so their names had to be explicitly mentioned.

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Well I have to say that imamah (12 infalliable Devine) imams was still NOT proven

It is proven long ago :) That you do not understand or pretend to not understand is not our problem. but keep repeating "imamah (12 infalliable Devine) imams was still NOT proven" and fooling yourself :lol:

as I told you so many times Imamat is there in Quran.. but you don't want to believe. Because you just DON'T want to believe. That's a simple answer. :shifty:

Brother they are hypocrites, do not waste your time on them. You will explain to them everything, after some hour they will play dumb and say that Imammah is not in Quran.

Edited by Rasul

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It is proven long ago :) That you do not understand or pretend to not understand is not our problem. but keep repeating "imamah (12 infalliable Devine) imams was still NOT proven" and fooling yourself :lol:

Brother they are hypocrites, do not waste your time on them. You will explain to them everything, after some hour they will play dumb and say that Imammah is not in Quran.

yes bro, you're absolutely right. I am now going to ignore their illogical posts... Because they just don't want to understand. as you saw my posts, I simply asked some questions about the 5:55... but strangely they did not answer properly. You and I even showed some Tafseers by Sunni... but no proper response except 'lol' and 'hahah'. It looks like they're kids. They only know how to laugh that's it.

May Allah shows the perfect path to His creations. Ameen. that's what I can do.. Pray for everyone.

(wasalam)

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No soul has authority over another. Guidance and straying is a matter between God and you.

aakwr-Allah-wb-Hu

We are already bowing down in prayer then why Allah separated says "bow down"... we all agree Bow Down is a part of Prayer. then why it is separated?

[shakir's translation]

2:43. And keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and bow down with those who bow down.

alhamdu lillahi Rabbil aalameen.

la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Al-'Atheemu Al-Haleemu, la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Rabbul 'arshil-‘atheemi,

la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Rabbus-samaawaati wa Rabbul-ardhi wa Rabbul-'arshil-kareemi

there is no god except Allah, the All-Mighty, the Forbearing; there is no god except Allah, the Lord of the Mighty Throne;

there is no god except Allah, Lord of the heavens, Lord of the earth and Lord of the noble Throne.

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Lol brother that makes 1.6 billion of us!!!

Good for you, Sunnis,

وَإِنْ تُطِعْ أَكْثَرَ مَنْ فِي الْأَرْضِ يُضِلُّوكَ عَنْ سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ ۚ إِنْ يَتَّبِعُونَ إِلَّا الظَّنَّ وَإِنْ هُمْ إِلَّا يَخْرُصُونَ

Most of the people in the land will lead you away from God's guidance if you follow them; they only follow their own conjecture and preach falsehood. [6:116]

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If the Quran does not say any thing about imammat then why to observe the fairy tale belief of 4 caliphs? It does not make any sense.

MASTER OF BELIEVERS:

Certainly your Master is Allah and His Messenger and those who believe who establish prayer and give charity while they bow. And who ever takes Allah and His Messenger and those who believe as a guardian, so surely the party of Allah will be victorious. (Quran Al-Mayada, Verses 55-56)

It is unanimous that the verse descended about Imam Ali (as) when he gave away in charity his ring while he was in a state of kneeling in his prayer. This is also authenticated successively according to the 12 Imams. Here are

some of the Shi'ite references

- Bihar al-Anwar, by Allama Majlisi

- Tafseer al-Mizan, by Allama Tabatabai

- Tafseer al-Kashaf, by Allama Muhammad Jawad Mughniyah

- al-Ghadir, by Allama Abdul Husain Ahmad al-Amini

- Asbat al-Hudate, by Allama Muhammad Ibn Hasan Amuli

But for the sake of the readers I shall produce some Sunni references, and traditions in this respect through other sources. Many Sunni commentators of the Quran confirm the fact that the above verse descended on the honor

of Imam Ali (as) and many Sunni scholars have also mentioned the unanimity or consensus of opinion in their books. Here are some references in this regard:

(1) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Ahmad Ibn Muhammad al-Tha'labi, under Verse 5:55

(2) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Ibn Jarir al-Tabari, v6, pp 186,288-289

(3) Tafsir Jamiul Hukam al-Quran, by Muhammad Ibn Ahmad Qurtubi, v6, p219

(4) Tafsir al-Khazin, v2, p68

(5) Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Suyuti, v2, pp 293-294

(6) Tafsir al-Kashshaf, by al-Zamakhshari, Egypt 1373, v1, pp 505,649

(7) Asbab al-Nuzool, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, Egypt 1382, v1, p73 on the

authority of Ibn Abbas

(8) Asbab al-Nuzool, by al-Wahidi, on the authority of Ibn Abbas

(9) Sharh al-Tjrid, by Allama Qushji

(10) Ahkam al-Quran, al-Jassas, v2, pp 542-543

(11) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v5, p38

(12) Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, p391, Tradition #5991

(13) al-Awsat, by Tabarani, narrated from Ammar Yasir

(14) Ibn Mardawayh, on the authority of Ibn Abbas

... and more.

There is also a tradition related by Ibn Salam whose chain of sources rises up to the Prophet (PBUH&HF) himself. Please refer to the Sahih of Nisa'i or the commentary of Sura Ma'idah in Jam'a Bayn al-Sihah al-Sittah.

In Ghayah al-Maram, p18, Sayyid al-Bahrayni forwards twenty four (24) traditions from sources other than the Ahlul-Bayt, all supporting the above fact.

For the sake of brevity, I am going to confine my self to a tradition occuring in the commentary of the Quran by Abi Is'haq Ahmad Ibn Muhammad ibn Ibrahim Nisaboori al-Tha'labi. A few comments on the respected

personality: He died in 337 AH and Ibn Khallikan gives an account of his death saying: "He was unique as a commentator of the Quran and his Tafsir al-Kabir is superior to all other interpretations."

When he reached this verse he recorded this in his Tafsir al-Kabir on the authority of Abu Dhar al-Ghifari, who said:

Both of my ears may turn deaf and both of my eyes may become blind if I speak a lie. I heard the Messenger of Allah, Allah's blessings and peace be upon him and his posterity, saying, "Ali is the guide of the righteous and the slayer of the infidels. he who has helped him is victorious and he who has abandoned him is forsaken.

" One day I said my prayers in the company of the Prophet. A beggar came to the mosque and begged for alms, but nobody gave him anything. Ali was in a state of kneeling in the prayer. He pointed out his ring to the beggar, who approached him and removed the ring from his finger. There upon the Prophet, Allah's blessings and peace be upon him and his posterity, implored Allah the Mighty and Glorious, saying: "O Allah! My brother Moses begged you saying, 'My Lord, delight my heart and make my task easy and undo the knot in my tongue so that they may understand me, and appoint from my kinsmen, Haroon, my brother, as my vizier (successor), and strengthen my back with him and make him participate in my mission so that we may glorify You and remember You more frequently. Certainly You see us.' And You inspired him: 'O Musa! All your requests have been granted.' O Allah! I am your slave and your prophet. Delight my heart and make my task easy and appoint from among my kinsmen Ali as my vizier (successor) and strengthen my back with him."

Abu Dhar, then, proceeded

By Allah, the Messenger of Allah, Allah's blessings and peace be upon him and his posterity had not yet finished his supplication when the trustworthy Gabriel descended to him with this Verse

"Certainly Allah is Your Master, and His Prophet and those who believe who establish prayer and give charity while they bow. And whoever takes Allah and His Messenger and those who believe as a guardian, so surely the party of Allah will be victorious."

Sunni reference: Tafsir al-Kabir, by al-Tha'labi under the commentary of Sura Al-Mayada, verses 55-56 of Quran.

========================================

A few comments by the other Commentators

========================================

Allama al-Tabarsi, while commenting on this verse in Majma' al-Bayan states: "The plural form has been used for Ali, Commander of the faithful, in order to express his honor and eminence." And masters of the Arabic

language use the plural form for an individual to show respect.

Allama al-Zamakshari in his Tafsir al-Kashshaf, has mentioned another nice point which is as follows:

If you inquire how this plural word is applicable to Ali, may Allah be gracious to him, who is an individual, I shall say that though this verse is about Ali, an individual, the plural form is used in order to persuade others to act similarly and to give alms as readily as Ali did. There is also an implied instruction that the faithful should

keep themselves always on the look out for occasions of acts of sympathy, benevolence and charity to the poor and the needy, and readily do the needful without waiting till the completion of even so important a duty as saying a prayer.

Sunni reference: Tafsir al-Kashshaf, by al-Zamakhshari, v1, p6

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No soul has authority over another. Guidance and straying is a matter between God and you.

aakwr-Allah-wb-Hu

[shakir's translation]

2:43. And keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and bow down with those who bow down.

alhamdu lillahi Rabbil aalameen.

la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Al-'Atheemu Al-Haleemu, la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Rabbul 'arshil-‘atheemi,

la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Rabbus-samaawaati wa Rabbul-ardhi wa Rabbul-'arshil-kareemi

there is no god except Allah, the All-Mighty, the Forbearing; there is no god except Allah, the Lord of the Mighty Throne;

there is no god except Allah, Lord of the heavens, Lord of the earth and Lord of the noble Throne.

(salam)

thanks for pointing this.

so here the thing is that This is not related to 5:55. And there is a difference meaning of this. There is no believers stated in the Ayat. So in the Ayat, Allah is saying to Bani Israel. Here is the proof

O Children of Israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you, and fulfil your (part of the) covenant, I shall fulfil My (part of the) covenant, and fear Me. And believe in that which I reveal, confirming that which ye possess already (of the Scripture), and be not first to disbelieve therein, and part not with My revelations for a trifling price, and keep your duty unto Me. And Confound not truth with falsehood, nor knowingly conceal the truth. and Establish worship, pay the poor-due, and bow your heads with those who bow (in worship). Enjoin ye righteousness upon mankind while ye yourselves forget (to practise it)? And ye are readers of the Scripture! Have ye then no sense? Seek help in patience and prayer; and truly it is hard save for the humble-minded, Who know that they will have to meet their Lord, and that unto Him they are returning. O Children of Israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you and how I preferred you to (all) creatures.

Quran [2:40-47]

and look at "

bow down with those who bow downs"

here it is clearly defining bow with those who bow downs.

Here is the Tafseer by Sunni Muslim

The Salat and the Zakat have always formed the essential elements of the revealed religion (Islam). Like all other Prophets, the Israelite Prophets also had strictly enjoined these, but by and by the Jews became wholly neglectful of them. They gave up the performance of Salat in congregation and the majority of the people did not even offer it individually. Instead of paying Zakat, they started charging interest on money.

http://www.englishta...an/2/index.html

so you can't equate this Ayat with 5:55. and I am saying it is clearly saying "bow with those who bow downs". but about 5:55 It is so different. there is nothing like this. in 5:55 It is "Bow Down" just bow down (nothing after or before bow down in 5:55). so just Bow Down in 5:55 does not make sense. Look at the detail meaning of the both Ayats. Both are so much different.

(wasalam)

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Rasul user let me tell you fact....12 infalliable imams after the prophet SAW was indeed NOT mentioned in the Quran at all....now it's foolish of the shia brothers to bring verses that talk about PROPHETS and BANI ISRAEL... And say BLINDLY say that it supports the false claim that it talks about 12 infalliable imams after the prophet SAW which we Muslims all know with common sense that it does NOT talk about them all the Shia brothers do is imply false claims or false implied meaning......respects....have a good day

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No soul has authority over another. Guidance and straying is a matter between God and you.

aakwr-Allah-wb-Hu

@akramabbas: Alright, brother.

alhamdu lillahi Rabbil aalameen.

la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Al-'Atheemu Al-Haleemu, la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Rabbul 'arshil-‘atheemi,

la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Rabbus-samaawaati wa Rabbul-ardhi wa Rabbul-'arshil-kareemi

there is no god except Allah, the All-Mighty, the Forbearing; there is no god except Allah, the Lord of the Mighty Throne;

there is no god except Allah, Lord of the heavens, Lord of the earth and Lord of the noble Throne.

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Rasul user let me tell you fact....12 infalliable imams after the prophet SAW was indeed NOT mentioned in the Quran at all....now it's foolish of the shia brothers to bring verses that talk about PROPHETS and BANI ISRAEL... And say BLINDLY say that it supports the false claim that it talks about 12 infalliable imams after the prophet SAW which we Muslims all know with common sense that it does NOT talk about them all the Shia brothers do is imply false claims or false implied meaning......respects....have a good day

Stop playing dumb and refer to this thread, everything have been explained.

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235011438-why-isnt-the-ahlybait-in-the-holy-quran/page__st__250

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Rasul user I read that thread long ago it seemed the ugly jinn user proved ...not only proved but refuted the concept of shia imamah right then in there don't be STUBBORN Rasul user in other words you've been making dumb remarks (which I And a lot of other people here wouldn't appreciate unless if your actually trying to stir something else up...!!! Which isn't good!!!!

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Rasul user I read that thread long ago it seemed the ugly jinn user proved ...not only proved but refuted the concept of shia imamah right then in there don't be STUBBORN Rasul user in other words you've been making dumb remarks (which I And a lot of other people here wouldn't appreciate unless if your actually trying to stir something else up...!!! Which isn't good!!!!

Let me ask you, who is your living imam right now that is chosen by Allah?

13:7

And those who disbelieved say, "Why has a sign not been sent down to him from his Lord?" You are only a warner, and for every people is a guide.

Shakir 17:71

(Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly.

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Rasul user I read that thread long ago it seemed the ugly jinn user proved ...not only proved but refuted the concept of shia imamah right then in there don't be STUBBORN Rasul user in other words you've been making dumb remarks (which I And a lot of other people here wouldn't appreciate unless if your actually trying to stir something else up...!!! Which isn't good!!!!

Show me, were he: ''refuted the concept of shia imamah'' If you think that Shia belief in Imamah is not in the Quran, then debate with me. I will easily refute all of your delusions.

Edited by Rasul

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Sunni Imam al-Qurtubi has stated concerning Imamah:

إن الصديق رضي الله عنه لما حضرته الوفاة عهد إلى عمر في الامامة، ولم يقل له أحد هذا أمر غير واجب علينا ولا عليك، فدل على وجوبها وأنها ركن من أركان

''When al-Siddiq, may Allah be pleased with him, was about to die, he transferred the Imamah to 'Umar. And none said to him: "This matter is not compulsory over you or us". This proves that Imamah is compulsory, and that it is one of the pillars of the religion.''

In his Tafsir, Volume 1, page 264-265,

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^Seriously fail. You keep equating Imam to Divine Imams. Qurtubi is talking about a fallible leader being nominated to lead = exactly what the Quran states. You purposely are trying to equate Imam (leader) to the concept of 12 divine Imams.

"Al-Qurtubi (may Allah have mercy on him) referred to this consensus while commenting on Allah's Saying: {"And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Verily, I am going to place a successor in earth." .}[2:30]. He said: This verse sets the rule for the nomination of a qualified imam (leader) to act as a supreme authority whose directives and instructions must be followed obediently .

This Imam acts as crucial factor in unifying the Muslims' word and implementing the caliphate's rulings. There is no discrepancy among the scholars of the Ummah (Muslim nation/community) in this respect.

Al-Qurtubi also stated the foundation on which that consensus was built:The evidence is Allah's Saying, {"Verily, I am going to place a successor in earth."}[2:30] and: {"O Dawud (David)! Verily, We have placed you as a successor on the earth; so judge you between men in truth (and justice)... }[38:26] and: {Allah has promised, to those among you who believe and work righteous deeds, that He will, of a surety, grant them in the land, inheritance (of power), …}[24:55] (i.e., making them judges over other people). There are some other verses indicating this issue .

The issue of nominating an imam/caliph to unify the Ummah being so crucial and essential, hardly can one find a book on Hadith (Prophet's tradition) of Fiqh (Islamic Jurisprudence) that does not tackle it. Not only that, rather some scholars dealt with this issue as a matter of Belief and singled it out as a separate chapter in the books of Tawhid (Monotheism- belief in and worshipping One God)."

http://www.islamweb....atwaId&Id=86246

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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^Seriously fail. You keep equating Imam to Divine Imams. Qurtubi is talking about a fallible leader being nominated to lead = exactly what the Quran states. You purposely are trying to equate Imam (leader) to the concept of 12 divine Imams.

"Al-Qurtubi (may Allah have mercy on him) referred to this consensus while commenting on Allah's Saying: {"And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Verily, I am going to place a successor in earth." .}[2:30]. He said: This verse sets the rule for the nomination of a qualified imam (leader) to act as a supreme authority whose directives and instructions must be followed obediently .

This Imam acts as crucial factor in unifying the Muslims' word and implementing the caliphate's rulings. There is no discrepancy among the scholars of the Ummah (Muslim nation/community) in this respect.

Al-Qurtubi also stated the foundation on which that consensus was built:The evidence is Allah's Saying, {"Verily, I am going to place a successor in earth."}[2:30] and: {"O Dawud (David)! Verily, We have placed you as a successor on the earth; so judge you between men in truth (and justice)... }[38:26] and: {Allah has promised, to those among you who believe and work righteous deeds, that He will, of a surety, grant them in the land, inheritance (of power), …}[24:55] (i.e., making them judges over other people). There are some other verses indicating this issue .

The issue of nominating an imam/caliph to unify the Ummah being so crucial and essential, hardly can one find a book on Hadith (Prophet's tradition) of Fiqh (Islamic Jurisprudence) that does not tackle it. Not only that, rather some scholars dealt with this issue as a matter of Belief and singled it out as a separate chapter in the books of Tawhid (Monotheism- belief in and worshipping One God)."

http://www.islamweb....atwaId&Id=86246

Seriously, you failed again, :lol: were did I say that al-Qurtubi is talking about Divine Imams?

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Rasul user the thing is you already have that thread which I have seen clearly ugly jinn user refuted the concept of Imamah maybe you should start reading instead of staying ignorant all the verses that the Shia used was answered properly by ugly jinn before so therefore I refer YOU to go to the thread you posted and READ so you can gain some KNOWLEDGE

Just as a note I'm not anti-shia it is just interesting to learn and have a rational and respectful conversation.....

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