Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
Ethics

Why Werent The Imams Names Mentioned In Quran?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

http://www.al-islam.org/faith_reason/38.htm

Question: Why aren’t the names of the Imams expressly mentioned in the Qur`an?

Brief Answer

It must be noted that although the names of the pure Imams (ع) are not specified in the Qur`an, the Prophet (ص) did assert their names, especially the name of Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (ع). A very clear instance of such assertion occurs in hadith Ghadir, which is considered the official announcement of the caliphate of Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (ع). Regarding the question of transmission, this hadith is mutawatir [i.e. it has been narrated through so many lines of transmission that it can be accepted without doubt.] and its content reveals clear evidence for the Imamate of Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (ع).

Moreover, there are several verses in the Qur`an that pertain to the status of Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (ع), the most important of which is verse 55 of Surat al-Ma`idah;

“Your guardian is only Allah, His Apostle, and the faithful who maintain the prayer and give the zakat while bowing down.”

In books of exegesis and history, both among the Shi’ite and Sunni sources, it has been pointed out that this verse was revealed after the event in which Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (ع) gave his ring to a poor beggar as charity while he was bowing down in prayer, and so this verse refers to no other than Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (ع). Thus, although Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (ع) has not been mentioned in the Qur`an by name, there are evident references to him.

But as to why the Imams (ع) have not been mentioned by name, at least two answers could be propounded.

Firstly, the normal pattern of the Qur`an is to deal with issues in a general tone, providing the general principles and rules, without getting into the explanation of the minute details. This is the method the Qur`an takes up in many instances and it is for this reason that when Imam Ja’far b. Muhammad as-Sadiq (ع) was asked about this question, he replied that, “It is the same case with the daily prayer, the zakat, and hajj: Allah has mentioned only their general rules in the Qur`an but has not elucidated the details. It was the Prophet (ص) who expressed the precise method of carrying out such duties and their related details. In the same vein, regarding the question of succession, the Prophet (ص) himself specified the names of ‘Ali and his household (ع) as his successors and so there was no need for their names to have been expressed in the Qur`an itself.

Secondly, in such an issue, where there was a good chance of opposition, prudence necessitated that the Qur`an mention the issue indirectly and through allusions for there was the possibility that opposition to the issue of Imamate might lead to opposition to the Qur`an and the main core of Islam, which was certainly not in the interest of the Muslims. That is, if there were a verse specifying the succession of ‘Ali (ع), the opponents would have distorted it out of their opposition to him, and this would have violated the value of Islam and the Qur`an as the final religion and the eternal and divine book. For, it should be borne in mind that one of the ways by which the Qur`an could be preserved—for Allah (awj) has asserted, “Indeed We have sent down the Reminder [i.e. the Qur`an] and indeed We will preserve it.”[295]—is to remove the natural motives for opposition and distortion.

Hence, the Qur`an, firstly, refrains from expressing the names of the Imams (ع); and secondly, places the verses that are related to the question of Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (ع) successorship, the Verse of Tabligh (which regards the official announcement of Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib’s (ع) successorship), and the Verse of Tathir (which regards the infallibility of the Prophet’s household) between other apparently unrelated verses so as to diminish, as much as possible, the motives for distortion and in so doing secure the Qur`an against all possible attacks.

Detailed Answer

To begin with, the reader’s attention should be drawn to the fact that the names of the Imams (ع) were mentioned expressly by the Prophet (ص), especially the blessed name of Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (ع), whose successorship was affirmed by the Prophet (ص) on several occasions.

One occasion was at the beginning of the Prophet’s (ص) mission when he embarked on spreading his message to his clan and family, saying, “The first [of you] to believe in me will be my spiritual heir (wasi), my vizier, and my successor.” To this offer no one gave a positive answer except for Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (ع), and so finally the Prophet (ص) said, “After me, you will be my spiritual heir, my vizier, and my successor.”[296]

Another occasion was the event at Ghadir Khum in which he expressly said, “Whomever I am his master, then ‘Ali (ع) is also his master.”[297]

Another of such assertions appears in the hadith of Manzilat in which the Prophet (ص) is related as having told Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (ع), “You are to me what Harun was to Musa, except that there will be no prophet coming after me.”[298]

It should be noted that the related sayings of the Prophet (ص) regarding the successorship of Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (ع) are too numerous to be impugned, and this point has been alluded to in many Sunni and Shi’ite books.[299]

In another hadith, the Prophet (ص) is recorded to have specifically mentioned the names of all the Imams—starting with Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (ع) and up to Imam Mahdi (ع) — to Jabir b. ‘Abdullah Ansari.[300]

Thus this fact must be kept in mind that although the names of the Imams (ع) do not appear in the Qur`an, but the Prophet (ص) — whose sayings are, according to the Qur`an, all true and are essentially revelations[301]—did specify their names and reiterated their successorship and leadership.

Furthermore, in the Qur`an there is an allusion to the Commander of the Faithful’ position of leadership, and although his name has not been mentioned there, nevertheless, the majority of the exegetes, whether Shi’ite or Sunni, admit that the allusion refers to ‘Ali’s (ع) status, and as such applies to no other than him.[302] The verse in which that allusion occurs is verse 55 of Surat al-Ma`idah, which reads,

“Your guardian is only Allah, His Apostle, and the faithful who maintain the prayer and give the zakat while bowing down.”[303]

Considering that in Islam there is no such rule that the Muslim should give zakat while bowing down in prayer, it becomes evident that this verse is referring to an incident that really took place. That incident took place on the day when Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (ع) was performing the ritual bow in the prayer, a beggar came up to him and asked him for some help. In response, Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (ع) pointed to his ring, and so the beggar took the ring off of his finger and left.

According to the reading derived from the aforementioned historical incident, the verse asserts that the leadership of the Muslims is “only” in the hands of Allah (awj), his Apostle, and Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (ع), and no other but them enjoys that status.

Hence, up to this point, it has been clarified that the names of the Imams (ع) were expressly mentioned by the Prophet (ص) and that there is an unmistakable allusion in the Qur`an to the Commander of the Faithful’ position of leadership. These points are such that if an impartial person intends to clarify the truth for himself, he will, with only a little amount of research, realize that the Prophet’s (ص) opinion regarding the question of successorship and leadership was in favour of Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (ع) and his pure sons.

But as to why their names are not specifically mentioned in the Qur`an, two justifications could be proposed.

First, the normal procedure that the Qur`an takes up is dealing with issues in a general manner and in the form of general rules and principles without enumerating their details, such as is the case about many of the fundamental and minor principles mentioned in the Qur`an. This answer has been suggested in a hadith narrated from Imam Ja’far b. Muhammad as-Sadiq (ع), and according to the narration, the Imam (ع) corroborates his answer by providing three examples.

1. One is how the issue of the ritual prayer is dealt with in the Qur`an. The Qur`an’s mention of the prayer is only a general description without elucidating the quality [i.e. the method] or quantity [i.e. how many times each act must be repeated during the course of a prayer] of every prayer. But the Prophet (ص) explained to the Muslims the manner in which the prayer should be preformed and the number of the raka’at [pl. of rak’ah, the most general part of the ritual prayer, consisting of recitation of parts of the Qur`an while erect, then bowing, thereafter standing up and from there going down for prostration, after which one sits up and then again falls in prostration before Allah (ع)].

2. Another example that the Imam (ع) cited was the issue of zakat, which has been introduced in the Qur`an in a general manner, and it was the Prophet (ص) who determined the items to which zakat pertained and the amounts with which the zakat of each item is identified.

3. His third example was the issue of hajj, about which the Qur`an only expresses its obligatory nature, while it was the Prophet (ص) who personally demonstrated to the Muslims the method by which this ritual should be carried out.[304]

Thus, it is unreasonable to expect that the Qur`an should examine the details of all religious issues. And so it is with regards to the issue of the leadership of the Prophet’s household (ع), the fact that the names of the Imams (ع) have not been specified should not be cited as grounds for rejecting the school of the Ahlul Bayt (ع) (the household of the Prophet), just as one should not curtail the noon prayer from four rak’ats to two rak’ats, for instance, with the excuse that the Qur`an does not specify that it should be four rak’ats, or just as one should not refrain from performing the ritual cycles around the Ka’bah with the excuse that it has not been expressed in the Qur`an.

The second justification is that regarding such a controversial issue, where there existed a high risk of opposition, prudence dictated that the Qur`an mention the issue in an implicit manner, for there was the risk that opposition to the issue of the Commander of the Faithful’ leadership might even jeopardize the integrity of the Qur`an itself. Thus a direct mention of the issue was certainly not in the interest of the Muslim community. For, it should be noted that one of the methods for preserving the Qur`an from any distortion, as promised by Allah (awj),

“Indeed We have sent down the Reminder, and indeed We will preserve it;”[305],

is precisely this: To express the issues in such a way as to eliminate any motives on the side of the pseudo-Muslim hypocrites for distortion, so that groups that do carry strong motives for distortion, out of material desires or opposition to the truth, would not alter the Qur`an to conform it to their inclinations, thereby violating the integrity of the Qur`an.

Ayatullah Mutahhari expresses this explanation in the following manner: “As to the question of why the Qur`an has not specifically mentioned the issue of ‘Ali’s (ع) successorship, they answer is as follows: Firstly, the norm of the Qur`an is to express issues in the form of general principles, and secondly, the Prophet (ص) or Allah (awj) did not want to propound this issue [i.e. the issue of the leadership of the Muslim community]—an issue that was at risk of being manipulated by men out of egocentrism and ambition—so bluntly. For, just as they [i.e. the opponents] so readily disregarded what the Prophet (ص) had said about this issue on the basis of various excuses—including the claim to ijtihad [i.e. that what the Prophet (ص) said in this regard was his own personal view and we also have the right to put forward and follow our own opinions]—and so justified their position by claiming that the Prophet (ص) did not intend the leadership of ‘Ali (ع) when he said those things about him, but rather he actually meant such and such, if there were a verse in this relation, they would just as well have misinterpreted it.

The Prophet (ص) in his statements said very clearly, “This here ‘Ali (ع) is his [i.e. the Muslim’s] master.” Would you like anything more frank than this! But there is a difference between discarding a statement of the Prophet (ص), albeit so clear, and that of a verse of the Qur`an clearly mentioning the issue, especially only a day after the demise of the Prophet (ص). It was for this reason that I related the following story in the preface to my book, Succession and Leadership: During the Commander of the Faithful reign, a Jew wanted to scold the Muslim community concerning the events surrounding the Prophet’s death—and they did really deserve scolding! He told ‘Ali (ع), “You had not buried your prophet before you opposed each other regarding him.” The Commander of the Faithful retorted, “We opposed each other not regarding him but regarding a verdict that he had addressed to us. But as to you; your feet were still soaked from the sea [which Musa had miraculously split in half] when you told your prophet, ‘make for us a God like the gods that they have.’ He [i.e. Musa] said, ‘You are indeed an ignorant lot.’ So there is a big difference between what happened amongst us and what happened amongst you. We did not quarrel over the Prophet himself, but rather about what was the actual content of his command. These two are very different.”

It is very different to justify a mistake—although this justification might not be the real cause for the mistake but only a pretext for the real cause of the mistake—by saying that those who made the mistake thought their claim was in accordance with what the Prophet (ص) intended, and in so doing manipulated the Prophet’s statement—such justification is better than to say that those who made the mistake discarded the related Qur`anic verse despite its clarity, to say that they distorted the Qur`an.

Therefore, it can be said that the main point in not specifying the names of the Imams (ع) in the Qur`an, or at least the name of the Commander of the Faithful, was securing the Qur`an against any distortion.

Thus, as can be witnessed, the Verses of Tathir, Tabligh, and Wilayat are inserted among the verses regarding the wives of the Prophet (ص), or the verses about the rules pertaining to the People of the Book and those explaining that Muslims should not make friends with them [i.e. the People of the Book], which apparently have no bearing on the issue of the leadership of the pure Imams (ع) and Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (ع). Thus an impartial researcher can, with the slightest attention realize that the tone of the part of the verse pertaining to the issue in question diverges from the main body of the verse and that it has been placed there for a certain reason [namely, concealment].

Notes:

[295]Surat al-Hijr (15), Verse 9:

} إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَ إِنَّا لَهُ لَحٌفِظُونَ {

[296]al-’Umdah, pg. 121,133; Ghayat al-Maram, pg. 320; al-Ghadir, vol. 2 pp. 278-279:

فَأَخَذَ بِرُقْبَتِي ثُمَّ قَالَ: إِنَّ هٌذَا أَخِي وَوَصِيِّي وَخلِيفَتِي فِيكُمْ فَاسْمَعُوا لَهُ وَأَطِيعُوا.

This hadith is
mutawatir
and exists in both Shi’ah and Sunni books. ‘Allamah Amini, in his book
al-Ghadir
(vol. 1 pg. 114), has gathered the narrators of this hadith from all sources and put them in chronological order. At the top of this list are 60 of the Noble Prophet’s companions which Sunni books use as narrators. In his book
‘Abaqat,
Mir Hamid Husayn has also proven this hadith to be mutawatir. (refer to: Ibn al-Maghazili,
Manaqib
, pp. 25-26)

al-’Umdah
, pg. 173-175;
Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal
, vol. 3 pg. 32;
al-Ghadir
, vol. 1, pg. 51, also vol. 3, pg. 197-201

فَقَالَ لَهُ رَسُولُ اللٌّهِ صَلَّى اللٌّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ: أمَا تَرْضى أَنْ تَكُونَ مِنِّي بِمَنْزِلَةِ هَارُونَ مِنْ مُوسى إِلاَّ أَنَّهُ لاَ نَبِيَّ بَعْدِي؟

‘Allamah Amini and Mir Hamid Husayn have put forth much effort in proving the
tawatur
of hadith’s on the Imamate of Imam ‘Ali ( ع). Fadil Quchani, a Sunni scholar who has rejected the
tawatur
of some of these hadith’s, has accepted the
tawatur
ofsome others.

[300]Yanabi’ al-Mawaddah, vol. 3, pg. 398-399:

سَمِعْتُ جَابِرُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللٌّهِ الأَنْصَارِيُّ يَقُولُ: قَالَ لِي رَسُولُ اللٌّهِ ( ص): يَا جَابِرُ إِنَّ أَوْصِيَائِي وَأَئِمَّةِ الْمُسْلِمِينَ مِنْ بَعْدِي أَوَّلُهُمْ عَلِيُّ، ثُمَّ الْحَسَنُ، ثُمَ الْحُسَينُ، ثُمَّ عَلِيُّ بْنُ الْحُسَيْنِ، ثمَُّ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَلِيّ الْمَعْرُوْفُ بِالْبَاقِرِ سَتُدْرِكُهُ يَا جَابِرُ فَإذَا لَقِيْتَهُ فَاقْرَأْهُ مِنِّيْ السَّلَامَ، ثُمَّ جَعْفَرُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ، ثُمَّ مُوْسى بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ، ثُمَّ عَلِيُّ بْنُ مُوْسى، ثُمَّ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَلِيِّ، ثُمَّ عَلِيُّ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ، ثُمَّ الْحَسَنُ بْنُ عَلِيِّ، ثُمَّ الْقَائِمُ اسْمُهُ اِسْمِيْ وَكُنْيَتُهُ كُنْيَتِيْ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ عَلِيّ، ذٌاكَ الَّذِي يَفْتَحُ اللٌّهُ - تَبَارَكَ وَتَعَالـى - عَلى يَدَيْهِ مَشَارِقَ الأَرْضِ وَمَغَارِبَهَا، ذٌاكَ الَّذِي يَغِيْبُ عَنْ أَوْلَيَائِهِ غَيْبَةً لاَ يُثْبَتُ عَلى الْقَوْلِ بِإِمَامَتِهِ إِلاَّ مَنِ امْتَحَنَ اللٌّهُ قَلْبَهُ لِلإِيْمَانِ.

[301]Surat al-Najm (53), Verses 3-4:

} وَمَا يَنْطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَى. إِنْ هُوَ إِلاَّ وَحْيٌ يُوحَى {

Refer to tafsir books under verse 55 of Surat al-Ma`idah such as:
al-Tafsir al-Kabir
by Fakhr Razi;
Tafsir-e-Namuneh
;
al-Durr al-Manthur
. Some Sunni books of tradition have also mentioned this event - refer to:
Dhakhayir al-’Uqba
, pg. 88;
Lubab al-Nuqul
, pg. 90;
Kanz al-’Ummal
, vol. 6 pg. 391. A list of books containing other books can be found in
Tafsir-e-Nemuneh
, vol. 4, pg. 425.

[303]Surat al-Ma`idah (5), Verse 55:

)إِنَّــمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللٌّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلاَةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ (

[304] al-Kafi, vol. 1, pg. 286-287:

عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ قَالَ سَأَلْتُ أَبَا عَبْدِ اللٌّهِ ( ع) عَنْ قَوْلِ اللٌّهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ: ) أَطِيعُوا اللٌّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ ( فَقَالَ: نَزَلَتْ فِي عَلِيِّ بْنِ أَبِي طَالِبٍ وَالْحَسَنِ وَالْحُسَينِ عَلَيْهِمُ السَّلاَمُ. فَقُلْتُ لَهُ: إِنَّ النَّاسَ يَقُولُونَ: فَمَا لَهُ لَمَْ يَسِمْ عَلِيًّا وَأَهْلَ بَيْتِهِ عَلَيْهِمُ السَّلاَمُ فِي كِتَابِ اللٌّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ؟ قَالَ: فَقَالَ: قُولُوا لَهُمْ: إِنَّ رَسُولَ اللٌّهِ ( ص) نَزَلَتْ عَلَيْهِ الصَّلاَةُ وَلَمْ يَسِمِ اللٌّهُ لَهُمْ ثَلاَثاً وَلاَ أَرْبَعاً، حَتَّى كَانَ رَسُولُ اللٌّهِ ( ص) هُوَ الَّذِي فَسَّرَ ذٌلِكَ لَهُمْ، ونَزَلَتْ عَلَيْهِ الزَّكَاةُ وَلَمْ يَسِمْ لَهُمْ مِنْ كُلِّ أَرْبَعِينَ دِرْهَماً دِرْهَمَ، حَتَّى كَانَ رَسُولُ اللٌّهِ ( ص) هُوَ الَّذِي فَسَّرَ ذٌلِكَ لَهُمْ، وَنَزَلَ الْحَجُّ فَلَمْ يَقُلْ لَهُمْ: طُوفُوا أُسْبُوعاً حَتَّى كَانَ رَسُولُ اللٌّهِ ( ص) هُوَ الَّذِي فَسَّرَ ذٌلِكَ لَهُمْ.

[305]Surat al-Hijr (15), Verse 9:

) إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَافِظُونَ (

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ

Asad : Behold, your only helper shall be God, and His Apostle, and those who have attained to faith - those that are constant in prayer, and render the purifying dues, and bow down [before God]:

Malik : Your real protecting friends are Allah, His Rasool, and the fellow believers - the ones who establish Salah, pay Zakah and bow down humbly before Allah.

Pickthall : Your friend can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poor due, and bow down (in prayer).

Yusuf Ali : Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah His Apostle and the (fellowship of) believers those who establish regular prayers and regular charity and they bow down humbly (in worship).

THEY BOW HUMBLY IN PRAYER!!

NOT PAY ZAKAH WHILE THEY BOW!!!

LOL

Why just use shakir translation?

no need for me to get a tafseer unlike yourself cannot explain it clear so a tafseer will do

Lol

And I didn't have to copy paste, just using Quran AS MY GUIDE.

That's how easy it is for a Sunni to EXPLAIN from Quran without tafseer

While you have to retort to certain tafseers

So it still stands why isn't Imamate in Quran?

Edited by Naz_

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But as to why the Imams (ع) have not been mentioned by name, at least two answers could be propounded.

"Could be"? If you want to play the "could be" game then you can open up plethora of subjective reasons.

Firstly, the normal pattern of the Qur`an is to deal with issues in a general tone, providing the general principles and rules, without getting into the explanation of the minute details. This is the method the Qur`an takes up in many instances and it is for this reason that when Imam Ja’far b. Muhammad as-Sadiq (ع) was asked about this question, he replied that, “It is the same case with the daily prayer, the zakat, and hajj: Allah has mentioned only their general rules in the Qur`an but has not elucidated the details. It was the Prophet (ص) who expressed the precise method of carrying out such duties and their related details. In the same vein, regarding the question of succession, the Prophet (ص) himself specified the names of ‘Ali and his household (ع) as his successors and so there was no need for their names to have been expressed in the Qur`an itself.

What a horrible and incorrect argument. Names of fallibles have been named in the Quran yet for a divine agent, who will be the successor of the Prophet, and was alive when the Quran was being revealed, and part of a fundamental concept is not important enough?

Secondly, in such an issue, where there was a good chance of opposition, prudence necessitated that the Qur`an mention the issue indirectly and through allusions for there was the possibility that opposition to the issue of Imamate might lead to opposition to the Qur`an and the main core of Islam, which was certainly not in the interest of the Muslims. That is, if there were a verse specifying the succession of ‘Ali (ع), the opponents would have distorted it out of their opposition to him, and this would have violated the value of Islam and the Qur`an as the final religion and the eternal and divine book. For, it should be borne in mind that one of the ways by which the Qur`an could be preserved—for Allah (awj) has asserted, “Indeed We have sent down the Reminder [i.e. the Qur`an] and indeed We will preserve it.”[295]—is to remove the natural motives for opposition and distortion.

Again, what a horrible argument which contradicts reality. Opposition did exist hence overwhelming majority rejected the concept of Imamat and Imam Ali a caliph after Prophet's death. So not having the name/s did not deter opposition at all., it actually made it worse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yawwwwwwnnn, another long copy and paste. Goes to show you what I said yesterday: "All Shia's can do is copy and paste." :lol:

Head over to Sunniforum or any other Sunni website and you'll see that Sunni do it just as much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And yet they still have problems explaining Imamate in Quran no matter what gymnastics they do

Lol

We do not have problem with 'explaining Imamat in Quran', people like you have problem with understanding.

Edited by Naz_

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We do not have problem with 'explaining Imamat in Quran', stupid people like you have problem with understanding.

Lol the reality is ........... NO IMAMATE NO CONCEPT of it at all in Quran.

Edited by Naz_

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lol the reality is ........... NO IMAMATE NO CONCEPT of it at all in Quran.

Unless you twist it or your just plain.......stupid which will be EASY for you to relate to and understand.

Of course, neither is a single Sunni concept present in the Quran, no matter whether it be Abu Bakr being the successor or washing the feet or their love of dictators, but don't let that stand in the way....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sunni concept favors individuals rise to power. They make idols out of people. You can add your opinion nonstop into the religion. I mean look at the names of the Madhabs named after people who never even meet the prophet.

Sunnism was in a conundrum after the prophet death. They were lost and didn't know who to follow. They made idols out of companions and replaced the Imams. Even now look at the Sunni world. Subservient American protectorate states looking after their worldly pleasures while killing innocent women and children from Iraq to Pakistan.

Edited by pakistanyar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course, neither is a single Sunni concept present in the Quran, no matter whether it be Abu Bakr being the successor or washing the feet or their love of dictators, but don't let that stand in the way....

Lol I have to forgive you for your NAEIVITY lol

No good going on about Sunni........WHEN YOU ARE STUCK EXPLAINING IMAMATE !!!

As you say there isn't A SINGLE SUNNI CONCEPT......you are right my brother .......it's ALL sunni unless you can prove OTHERWISE

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sunni concept favors individuals rise to power. They make idols out of people. You can add your opinion nonstop into the religion.

And yet it is the Sunni madhabs' imams who were tortured by the people in power. And it is the sunni ulema for which is said that prison is their home.

Idols out of people are made by those who make the status of their imams higher than the Prophets and then ghuluw upon ghuluw ad infitum.

I mean look at the names of the Madhabs named after people who never even meet the prophet.

And the Jafari madhab is named after a person who did? What a childish argument.

Sunnism was in a conundrum after the prophet death. They were lost and didn't know who to follow. They made idols out of companions and replaced the Imams.

There was no sunnism and shiaism after the Prophet (pbuh)'s death. After his death, his companions and those who the companions elected/selected were followed in guidance as they were the direct students of the Prophet (pbuh)

Even now look at the Sunni world. Subservient American protectorate states looking after their worldly pleasures while killing innocent women and children from Iraq to Pakistan.

Because you are filled with hatred, you have taken a leap to present day states and labelled sunnism with it. And nevertheless it is the sunni ahadith that more or less classify these time as the times of brutal dictatorship before being returning to khilafa ala minhaj an nubuwa

And pray tell what do Shia dynasties past and present have done? Mongol invasion anyone? Present Iran dreams more of a persian empire in its immediate vicinity.

Anyways this is a pathetic argument , I do not hold average shias responsible to any atrocities that the dynasties have committed past or present.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On topic..

There is no concept of imamate in the Quran rather than names of the imams themselves.

It is first required to prove the concept of imamate and then dwell why and why not the names are there.

If you give the Quran to a person stranded in an island with no recourse to any tafasir, internet or message boards - then ask him/her to list the main concepts being taught and repeated again and again in this 'book', guess which ones he/she will list?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Could be"? If you want to play the "could be" game then you can open up plethora of subjective reasons.

Just like how you opened one regarding Muawiya's "could be" retort to Imam Ali's (a.s) argument and the subsequent validation of Saqifa in this thread ? :

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235012357-if-saqifa-was-invalid-why-did-imam-ali-justify-it/page__st__25

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just like how you opened one regarding Muawiya's "could be" retort to Imam Ali's (a.s) argument and the subsequent validation of Saqifa in this thread ? :

http://www.shiachat....it/page__st__25

Apples and oranges. There is a difference between fundamentals not mentioned in the Quran vs historical disagreements mentioned in fallibles hadiths.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salaam.

I find it funny that some people replying on here have no academic argument to disprove anything that was said in the original post. You have these immature and pointless statements like "its just copy paste". So what if its copy paste? Are you able to address the argument? If not, then remain quiet as your input brings no value to the discussion.

The same ones saying "Its just gymnastics". Again if you're not going to say why or add any argument to the debate then remain quiet for your input is not academic, makes you look useless and wastes peoples reading time.

Firstly, to address Surah 5:55 the main issue which is make or break, is the definition of the word Wali. Words that derive or mean the same thing is Mawli or Awliya. Now in order to see what the word Wali truly meant in that verse, it would be stupid to look how the term is used in modern day arabic. One would have to observe its meanings and usage during the time the Qur'an as revealed. But an easier way would be to look at other places this word(and its derivatives) was used in the Qur'an.

Surah 2 verse 107:

Asad: Dost thou not know that God's is the dominion over the heavens and the earth, and that besides God you have none to protect you or bring you succour?

Malik: Do you not know that to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and that besides Allah you have no protector or helper!!

Pickthall: Knowest thou not that it is Allah unto Whom belongeth the sovereignty of the heavens and earth; and ye have not, beside Allah, any friend or helper?

Yusuf Ali: Knowest thou not that to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth! And besides Him ye have neither patron nor helper.

Surah 2 Verse 120:

Asad: For, never will the Jews be pleased with thee, nor yet the Christians, unless thou follow their own creeds. Say: "Behold, God's guidance is the only true guidance." And, indeed, if thou shouldst follow their errant views after all the knowledge that has come unto thee, thou wouldst have none to protect thee from God, and none to bring thee succour.

Malik: The Jews and the Christians will never be pleased with you, until you follow their faith. O Muhammad, tell them : "Allah's guidance is the only guidance;" and if after all the knowledge you have received, you yield to their desires, there shall be none to protect you or help you from the wrath of Allah.

Pickthall: And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah (Himself) is Guidance. And if thou shouldst follow their desires after the knowledge which hath come unto thee, then wouldst thou have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper.

Yusuf Ali: Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The guidance of Allah that is the (only) guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee then wouldst thou find neither protector nor helper against Allah.

Surah 3 Verse 68

Asad: Behold, the people who have the best claim to Abraham are surely those who follow him - as does this Prophet and all who believe [in him] - and God is near unto the believers.

Malik: Surely the people nearest to Ibrahim are those who follow him, which are this Prophet (Muhammad) and those who believe with him; Allah is the Protector of only those who are the believers.

Pickthall: Lo! those of mankind who have the best claim to Abraham are those who followed him, and this Prophet and those who believe (with him); and Allah is the Protecting Friend of the believers.

Yusuf Ali: Without doubt among men the nearest of kin to Abraham are those who follow him as are also this Apostle and those who believe; and Allah is the Protector of those who have faith.

Surah 6 Verse 127

Asad: Theirs shall be an abode of peace with their Sustainer; and He shall be near unto them in result of what they have been doing.

Malik: For them there will be a home of peace with their Rabb. He will be their protector because of their good deeds.

Pickthall: For them is the abode of peace with their Lord. He will be their Protecting Friend because of what they used to do.

Yusuf Ali: For them will be a Home of Peace in the presence of their Lord: He will be their Friend because they practiced (righteousness).

Surah 2 verse 257

Asad: God is near unto those who have faith, taking them out of deep darkness into the light - whereas near unto those who are bent on denying the truth are the powers of evil that take them out of the light into darkness deep: it is they who are destined for the fire, therein to abide.

Malik: Allah is the Wali (Protector) of those who believe, He brings them out of the depth of darkness and lead them into the light. As for the unbelievers, whose wali (protector) is Taghut (forces of Shaitan), he takes them out of the light and leads them into the depths of darkness. As a result they will become the companions of the Hell fire and shall live therein forever.

Pickthall: Allah is the Protecting Friend of those who believe. He bringeth them out of darkness into light. As for those who disbelieve, their patrons are false deities. They bring them out of light into darkness. Such are rightful owners of the Fire. They will abide therein.

Yusuf Ali: Allah is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the Evil Ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be companions of the fire to dwell therein (for ever).

Seeing as these were the translators the person who previously checked 5:55 used, I used them as well. Im going to talk about each one, one by one.

Asad

This guy cant seem to make up his mind whether Wali means "near" or "protector". Either way, One can see that he didnt use friend here. Definite lack of consistency in translating the word Wali. But Protector/Near seems to be what it means according to him. Not "friend".

Malik

Very clear that in other parts of the Qur'an he translates Wali as Protector. In one of those examples he even puts the translation of Wali next to it in brackets, leaving the word Wali in the translation.

Pickthall

LOL! MashAllah what can I say about pickthall, the only one which is somewhat consistent in translating the word Wali. But there is a major flaw. This amazing consistency is the flaw itself. How is it, that every other example of the word Wali Pickthall translates it as "PROTECTING friend" But specifically in Surah 5:55 where it refers to Imam Ali(as) the word "protecting" is completely left out and it says only "friend"? Keep that in Mind.

Yusuf Ali

Similar to Malik. In most cases he translates the word Wali to mean protector/guardian or words with similar meanings like Patron. There are a few places only where he translates Wali as friend.

Now that we have analysed how these 'other translators' translate the word Wali, it is VERY clear, that these sunni translations KNEW that surah 5:55 was referring to Imam Ali(as) and they knowingly changed the translation of Wali to 'friend' in that Aya. Why? Because it is a proof of the Wilaya of Imam Ali(as). Of course they can never change the Qur'an itself but of course they can change the translation and tafseer. This is evidently what they have done.

There are many many more examples of the word Wali being used in the Quran btw but Im sure 5 examples is enough to make my point and not be overkill.

Those of you who still try and say it means "friend" are only fooling yourselves.

But lets address the issue further. Ghadeer Qom. Over 100,000 Sahaba of the prophet gathered so that the Prophet may make an announcement. Also keep Surah 5 verse 67 in mind "O Messenger! deliver what bas been revealed to you from your Lord; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message, and Allah will protect you from the people; surely Allah will not guide the unbelieving people"

Now if RasoolAllah(sawa) has gathered over 100,000 of his companions to reveal what he revealed next, surely it must be something not only VERY important but from Allah(swt).

"Man kunto Mawla hu fa haadha Aliyyun Mawla"

"Of whomsoever I am his Mawla, Ali is his Mawla"

When you look at the arabic during the time of RasoolAllah(sawa), its no mystery that a servant addressing a master would say "Mawli". This even persists in todays arabic. When a laymen is talking to someone they considered learned or a scholar, they say "Mawli". Meaning Master.

How can Mawla mean 'friend'? Honestly, use some logic. So RasoolAllah(sawa) is going go through the trouble of gathering over 100,000 people just to tell them that Ali(as) is their friend? This is a silly assumption to make.

A look at Surah 53 Verses 1-8. These verses explain that RasoolAllah(sawa) did not speak from his own desire, rather it is revelation from Allah(swt) and that Allah(swt) has taught him and that he has attained completion. Now referring back to Surah 5:67 I want you to keep that in mind all this demonstrates that what RasoolAllah(sawa) announces is from Allah(swt). This goes to show that Ali ibn Abu Talib(as) was in fact divinely appointed by Allah(swt) has leader of the muslims after RasoolAllah(sawa).

Furthermore, it is not enough that I prove the divinely appointed leadership of Imam Ali(as) but I will also disprove the idea of Saqifa VERY swiftly.

Surah 28 verse 68 destroys the idea of elected religious leadership. For he explicitly states he creates and chooses who he wishes, and that they have no choice in any matter(According to Yusuf Ali's translation). The same way, Allah(swt) would always choose who he wants to be his prophets on earth, then likewise surely he would choose who guards their message. As communities would never decide sincerely. Only vote for who would benefit their interests and selfish desires.

Salaam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lol the reality is ........... NO IMAMATE NO CONCEPT of it at all in Quran.

Unless you twist it or your just plain.......stupid which will be EASY for you to relate to and understand.

Imamat is clear in Quran Edited by Naz_

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lol moron it's NOT and you cannot prove otherwise

Show us THE CLEAR verse or is it just in yer head?

DELUSIONAL!!

Read the below quotations...Im just using logic and what's their to show you who should be followed after the PROPHET, im not using the Quran to say its obligatoary im trying to understand the wisdom about who the 12 sucessors are! very delicate point we cant force no one to believe in the 12 your logic will bring you closer to the idea:

And Allah had already taken a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We delegated from among them twelve leaders. [5:12]

Okay from the above we can see that their is an idea that the Children of Isreal were delegated 12 leaders and Allah CHOSE THEM not the creation look Allah CHOSE them of the children of isreal why wouldnt he do the same for Mohammed?....if you deny that the children of isreal never got delegated 12 leaders...May Allah Guide You.....

Secondly....we know we must use the QURAN IN LINE WITH HADITH! YES CORRECT.....EVERYONE KNOWS THAT IF YOU HAVE HADITH YOU MUST SEE IT IN LINE WITH THE QURAN...

HADITH ON IMAMTE

Sahih Bukhari:

Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard Muhammad saying, "There will be
twelve Muslim rulers
." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) will be
from Quraish
."

Sahih Muslim :

Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard Muhammad saying, "The (Islamic) religion will continue until the Hour (day of resurrection), having
twelve Caliphs
for you, all of them will be
from Quraysh
."

Sunan Abu Dawood :

The Prophet said: "This religion remains standing until there are
twelve vicegerents
over you, all of them agreeable to the nation, all of them
from Quraysh
."

Sunan al-Tirmidhi :

The Prophet said: "There will be after me
twelve Amir
(Prince/Ruler), all of them
from Quraysh
."

Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal

Masrooq rates that someone asked Abdullah Ibn Masood, "O Abaa Abd al-Rahmaan, did you ask the Messenger of
Allah
how many caliphs will rule this nation?". Abdullah Ibn Masood replied,
"Yes, we did ask the Messenger of
Allah
and he replied, "
Twelve
, like the number of chiefs (nuqabaa) of Bani Israel
""

Quran & Hadith:

Okay what do we know now that Banni Isreal had 12.....Similarly the Hadith showed us that Prophet Mohammed will have 12...this number 12 keeps showing up in all Ahlus Sunnah books as anyone will admit...the number 12 does show up in all books...lets go further to find out who the 12 are......just a note we also know THATT
Allah
CHOSE THE 12 FOR banni isreal they never chose themselves...

Quran on Choosing

And your Lord creates what He wills and chooses; not for them was the choice(in any matter). Exalted is
Allah
and high above what they associate with Him.[28:68]

This is a clear point...understand that
Allah
SWT chooses what he wills in any matter.....if we know
Allah
SWT chooses what he will's we need to ask ourself a question:

What gives the right of the CREATION(normal humans) to determine a leader for the UMMAH, when
Allah
creates and chooses?

The idea of SHURA is flawed..it goes against the Quran...In the idea of SHURA...you go through a democratic elections process... Which are the events of saqifah...in ACTUAL fact saqifah was so flawed because the only real candidate (Ali)... wasn't even their so how can it be a SHURA if Ali and other Sahaba are not their...lets leave this because im sure @Blacknight will loose a debate if we talk about saqifah....

the main point from the Quranic verse is that
Allah
Chooses what he wills and what he creates...and we know that the Prophet said there will be 12 after me so as a MUSLIM we have a right to find out who these 12 are and discuss them According to the QURAN......!

QURAN on LEADERS

And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [
Allah
] said, "Indeed, I will make you an
imam
for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [
Allah
] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."

On this verse understand...that the context is Prophethood...

Allah

SWT makes Prophet Abraham PBUH a PROPHET... Abraham asks what about my descendants...

note its a vital point descendants....
Allah
SWT beautifully replies that his message will not go to the WRONGdoers....meaning that
Allah
SWT's message is given to the purist...(I include this because im still SHOCKED THAT Ahlus Sunnah believe he frowned at the blind man @blacknight bt this is a conversation for a different day)

---------------------- Continuing Quran on Leaders

Indeed,
Allah
chose Adam and Noah and the
family of Abraham
and the family of 'Imran
over the worlds
[3:33]

It says clearly
Allah
Chose The family of Abraham and the Family of Imran over the worlds......Every single Muslim believes that Ali and his progeny are from the Line of Abraham...

So what do we know so far....

1. Banni isreal had 12

2. Prophet Mohammed will have 12

3. Only
Allah
Chooses

4.
Allah
Chooses from the Family of Abraham ove the worlds

------------------VERSE of purfication

O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification.
[33:33]

The family is purified....so now we know that
Allah
SWT purfies the Ahlulbayt...Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hussain

Therefore any logical thinker if he has any mind which is his own will AGREE that if we were the Ummah we would choose ALI...BECAUSE
Allah
SWT PURFIES ALI....if we choose ALI then Ali's son's who are also purfied will suceede him untill the 12.....

ASK YOUR SELF A QUESITON @everyone:

Who would you Choose
Allah
'S Purfied Creation or Normal Humans to lead the UMMAH?

(although we have no right because
Allah
SWT chosese what he wills... but just for the sake of logic)

I duno about you but I would Choose
Allah
's Purfied Creation WHICH IS ALI......

But if you see the hadith of the 12 sucessors it clearly states 12 not 4(rightly guided)...like what gives us the right to say that their will be 4 and not 12 when our beloeved Prophet PBUH&HF has told us their will be 12 to suceede him...and if you@blackknight believe there are 12 who are these 12...

Answer me a question we have the hadith 12,12,12,12 written in all books

note defintion of CALIPH
:

which means "successor" or "representative" of the MUSLIMS, Following the Prophet PBUH&hf death.

@BLACKNIGHT

WHO ARE THE 12 SUCESSORS OF THE PROPHET MOHAMMED PBUH&HF?

We the followers of the Ahlulbayt know who they are i ASK you.......because your the first to judge the idea so tell us who are the 12?

^just answer that...nothing more nothing less....
Edited by IgnoranceDiffers4rmLogic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Blacknight you been viewing this topic for like an hour now...good to see your doing your research ;)...and trying to find an answer shows you caree..I CANT WAIT TO SEE YOUR LIST OF 12....but quickly I have to be somewhere...its only 12 names were not going to argue about it were going to agree to disagree...how comes its taking so long to find 12 names?....

ask me i will take 30 secs

Ali

Hassan

Hussain

al-Sajjad, Zayn al-'Abidin

Baqir al-Ulum

as-Sadiq

al-Kazim

ar-Rida, Reza

al-Taqi, al-Jawad

al-Hadi, al-Naqi

al-Askari

al-Mahdi

your turn please=] surely shouldnt take u an hr to reply 12 names..

THE TIME IS 15:15 UK GMT....SO EVERYONE CAN C HOW LONG IT TOOK FOR YOU TO COME WITH 12 NAMES

Edited by IgnoranceDiffers4rmLogic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Blacknight you been viewing this topic for like an hour now...good to see your doing your research ;)...and trying to find an answer shows you caree..I CANT WAIT TO SEE YOUR LIST OF 12....but quickly I have to be somewhere...its only 12 names were not going to argue about it were going to agree to disagree...how comes its taking so long to find 12 names?....

ask me i will take 30 secs

Ali

Hassan

Hussain

al-Sajjad, Zayn al-'Abidin

Baqir al-Ulum

as-Sadiq

al-Kazim

ar-Rida, Reza

al-Taqi, al-Jawad

al-Hadi, al-Naqi

al-Askari

al-Mahdi

your turn please=] surely shouldnt take u an hr to reply 12 names..

THE TIME IS 15:15 UK GMT....SO EVERYONE CAN C HOW LONG IT TOOK FOR YOU TO COME WITH 12 NAMES

Lol go chip then why are you wasting mine and your time?

I asked FOR CLEAR QURANIC AYAH.......what do you give?.......LOGICS AND HADITHS

It's the same recurring theme LOGIC

You still haven't answered ......once you do we will move on brother so in the meantime go do your stuff and maybe you can give me the verse when you are back

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lol moron it's NOT and you cannot prove otherwise

Show us THE CLEAR verse or is it just in yer head?

DELUSIONAL!!

12 Ímams are Ulul Amr in Quran, everything is very clear

Edited by Naz_

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

12 Ímams are Ulul Amr in Quran, everything is very clear (of course not for morons like you)

well stop being half hearted are you scared there isnt any? POST them without your usual tafseers it cannot be that hard can it.

Edited by Naz_

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

lol bro...we both know the idea of imamate is something which is in accordance to the Hadith of 12 sucessors...we use the Quran to understand that:

...we are alborating on the HADITH OF THE 12 and you can simply see who are candidates for the 12 from the Quran&HADITH...so simple....the Quran&HADITH shows us

1. Banni isreal had 12

2. Prophet Mohammed will have 12

3. Only
Allah
Chooses

4.
Allah
Chooses from the Family of Abraham over the worlds.

5.
Allah
Purfied Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hussain

All these Quranic verses point to the Prophets Family...the Quranic verse about choosing the Family of Abraham over the worlds..should be enough for you to understand that the family of the Prophet was different from others....but again on this topic lets just agree to disagree....

Blacknight: THERE IS NO IMAMTE, this is all myt...

IgnoranceDiffers4frmLogic: no the Quran says xyz

Blacknight: no...your just showing logic etc

IgnoranceDiffers4frmLogic: lets AGREE TO DISAGREE BROTHER because we believe something different

HOWEVER....

IgnoranceDiffers4frmLogic: (ANSWER BELOW QUESTION)

IN the Fiqh of AHLUS SUNNAH WAL JAMAH:

Who are these 12? WE HAVE HADITHS ABOUT 12 WHOOO ARE THEY TELL US?

@BLACKNIGHT

Edited by IgnoranceDiffers4rmLogic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

lol bro...we both know the idea of imamate is something which is in accordance to the Hadith of 12 sucessors...we use the Quran to understand that:

...we are alborating on the HADITH OF THE 12 and you can simply see who are candidates for the 12 from the Quran&HADITH...so simple....the Quran&HADITH shows us

1. Banni isreal had 12

2. Prophet Mohammed will have 12

3. Only
Allah
Chooses

4.
Allah
Chooses from the Family of Abraham over the worlds.

5.
Allah
Purfied Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hussain

All these Quranic verses point to the Prophets Family...the Quranic verse about choosing the Family of Abraham over the worlds..should be enough for you to understand that the family of the Prophet was different from others....but again on this topic lets just agree to disagree....

Blacknight: THERE IS NO IMAMTE, this is all myt...

IgnoranceDiffers4frmLogic: no the Quran says xyz

Blacknight: no...your just showing logic etc

IgnoranceDiffers4frmLogic: lets AGREE TO DISAGREE BROTHER because we believe something different

HOWEVER....

IgnoranceDiffers4frmLogic: (ANSWER BELOW QUESTION)

IN the Fiqh of AHLUS SUNNAH WAL JAMAH:

Who are these 12? WE HAVE HADITHS ABOUT 12 WHOOO ARE THEY TELL US?

@BLACKNIGHT

brother you said quran shows xy and z lol

i ASKED FOR IMAMATE SPECIFICALLY IN QURAN AS YOU LOT BELIEVE not xy and z all your doing is using 12 imam hadith which funnily enough is from OUR BOOKS

i do not want hadith my brother the word of Allah subhanawatallah is SUFFICEINT !!

so again i ask where is it in quran?

i cannot agree on summert that aint in the quran now can i?

especially when its shiite logic and no logic of it in quran

how hard can it be?

by the looks of your posts you are trying your best OTHER WAYS AND LITERATURE INSTEAD OF THE MAIN BOOK FOR ME AND YOU ALQURAN

i am still waiting brother

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well stop being half hearted are you scared there isnt any? POST them without your usual tafseers it cannot be that hard can it.........moron

We are not Quranists here, so if you dont like Tafsir then you can go to Quranist forum. Only morons interpret Quran by their own desires.

Edited by Naz_

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But brother xyz I showed you verse's from the Quran which specifically show us okay lets take this one step at a time explain this verse to me...i'm going to work very slowly with you...:

Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over the worlds [3:33]

Elaborate, what is your understanding of this verse...

And for all the followers of the Ahlulbayt... ;) once again the dodging of the question of who the 12 are... =] but InshAllah we will get their slowly but surely...Elaborate on the verse

@Blacknight whats the understanding of the verse you have above....

Edited by IgnoranceDiffers4rmLogic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We are not Quranists here, so if you dont like Tafsir then you can go to Quranist forum. Only morons interpret Quran by their own desires, I guess you are one of them, otherwise you would not have problem with Tafsir.

lol tafseers according to whom? We have our own tafseers and NOWHERE DO THEY SAY OR BELIEVE IN IMAMATTE and anyway its a BASIC CONCEPt YOUR MAIN ARTICLE OF FAITH but its not CLEAR CUT IN QURAN?

I wonder why?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

lol tafseers according to whom? We have our own tafseers and NOWHERE DO THEY SAY OR BELIEVE IN IMAMATTE and anyway its a BASIC CONCEPt YOUR MAIN ARTICLE OF FAITH but its not CLEAR CUT IN QURAN?

I wonder why?

We dont care what your tafsir say, Imamat is clear in Quran, Allah appoints Imams in many verses of Quran (This is main article of faith ''Imamat''), When it comes to ''12 Imams'' it is explanatory part and it comes with Sunnah/Tafsir.

وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He (Ibrahim) said: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers." Quran [2:124]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well Blacknight from your interesting answer...I hate to do this but..it seems that your confused..if I bring hadith into it you will say no its not Quran...

Does the Quran tell you how to Pray?

You pray 5 times I prayer 5 times how many times does the Quran say?

If your going to just stay adamant that we cannot use Hadith or tafsir to understand both sides of the story were not going to get anywhere?

I really don't understand what your doing here bro...you don't want to take any of our hadith's no our tafsir's not even your own hadiths....you must have a lot of time on your hand this should be a learning curve...common bro were not that different you know you can trust what I am saying to you....and if it logically makes sense in your head then it has some basis...you dont have to agree but understand why we say such things

Like I asked you to answer your own Hadith like 3 times about who the 12 are...its as if you dont care about this hadith...

In your head you may think "we have 4 rightly guided that is enough"....

but as a Muslim I cannot take this answer....because I follow Mohammed pbuh&hf and the Prophet taught us there will be 12....

now when I ask you to name the 12 you have no idea..or you avoid...

Blacknight: Its not Clear cut in Quran

^^ you said that not me....but then how to pray is not clear cut in Quran...how did u learn that?

common bro we cant use double standards...you want me to accept the way you pray because the Hadith's show you but if I ask you to understand that MOHAMMED HAD 12 SUCCESSORS AND ITS WRITTEN IN HADITH AND we can understand who they are through the QURAN you just don't want to accept it?

who are the 12 bro?come man its been 3 hours ive been asking you

Who Are The 12?

=]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But brother xyz I showed you verse's from the Quran which specifically show us okay lets take this one step at a time explain this verse to me...i'm going to work very slowly with you...:

Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over the worlds [3:33]

Elaborate, what is your understanding of this verse...

And for all the followers of the Ahlulbayt... ;) once again the dodging of the question of who the 12 are... =] but InshAllah we will get their slowly but surely...Elaborate on the verse

@Blacknight whats the understanding of the verse you have above....

basically that Allah subhanawatallah CHOSE the said prophets alaihesalam over the worlds

simple as that without tafseer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salaam Alaikum - Just to add to the question of 12 Imams.

According to Musnad Ahmed b. Hanbal on page 96; the hadith states that:

Rasool Allah SAWA says: Whosoever dies without recognizing the Imam of his time dies the death of the ignorance (Jahiliyyah).

My question to you is (once you've identified the 12 that we've all been patiently awaiting you to identify) who is the Imam of our time according to you?

Do you recognize him?

Many thanks in advance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

brother you said quran shows xy and z lol

i ASKED FOR IMAMATE SPECIFICALLY IN QURAN AS YOU LOT BELIEVE not xy and z all your doing is using 12 imam hadith which funnily enough is from OUR BOOKS

i do not want hadith my brother the word of Allah subhanawatallah is SUFFICEINT !!

so again i ask where is it in quran?

i cannot agree on summert that aint in the quran now can i?

especially when its shiite logic and no logic of it in quran

how hard can it be?

by the looks of your posts you are trying your best OTHER WAYS AND LITERATURE INSTEAD OF THE MAIN BOOK FOR ME AND YOU ALQURAN

i am still waiting brother

Salam.

Not everything, so core in Islamic Aqeedah is necessarily mentioned blatantly in the Qur'an. There are a few obvious things Sunnis believe that arent explicitly mentioned in the Quran. But I will start with one example only. I wouldnt want your brain to explode.

Praying 5 times a day.

Please can you show me where it mentions in the Qur'an that we should pray 5 times a day. This is something very basic and core to your aqeedah. Every Sunni will tell you, a muslim must pray 5 times a day. Well then where is this mentioned in the Qur'an? This is the flaw with your logic about it having to be in the Qur'an. It doesnt have to be in the Qur'an for it to be something we should believe adamantly.

You said "I cannot agree on something that isnt in the Quran".

Then why do you pray 5 times a day? You are contradicting yourself.

Furthermore, the concept of 12 Imams is not only in your books, that narration is is Shia books as well. We only reference Sunni books because it is a debate platform. Obviously we would use sources that you consider reliable to make a point if we can. What use would there be in me quoting you something from Nahjul Balagha, Kitab Al Kafi or Bihar Al Anwar when you dont consider these books authentic or reliable. We quote sunni books to show you the inconsistencies in your aqeeda.

So how can you tell us that the concept of 12 HAS to be mentioned in the Qur'an when essential parts of your Aqeeda isnt mentioned in the Qur'an? But I know why you dont want to talk about hadiths, because its all over your books that there will be 12, all from Quraysh. Hadith of the 2 weighty things, connected by a rope which will stay connected until they join rasoolAllah(sawa) in Jannah, hold onto this rope and you will never go astray, they are the Qur'an and Ahlul Bayt. So many strong hadiths in your books proving our point that you obviously want to avoid because you have no answer to them.

Salam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well Blacknight from your interesting answer...I hate to do this but..it seems that your confused..if I bring hadith into it you will say no its not Quran...

Does the Quran tell you how to Pray?

You pray 5 times I prayer 5 times how many times does the Quran say?

If your going to just stay adamant that we cannot use Hadith or tafsir to understand both sides of the story were not going to get anywhere?

I really don't understand what your doing here bro...you don't want to take any of our hadith's no our tafsir's not even your own hadiths....you must have a lot of time on your hand this should be a learning curve...common bro were not that different you know you can trust what I am saying to you....and if it logically makes sense in your head then it has some basis...you dont have to agree but understand why we say such things

Like I asked you to answer your own Hadith like 3 times about who the 12 are...its as if you dont care about this hadith...

In your head you may think "we have 4 rightly guided that is enough"....

but as a Muslim I cannot take this answer....because I follow Mohammed pbuh&hf and the Prophet taught us there will be 12....

now when I ask you to name the 12 you have no idea..or you avoid...

Blacknight: Its not Clear cut in Quran

^^ you said that not me....but then how to pray is not clear cut in Quran...how did u learn that?

common bro we cant use double standards...you want me to accept the way you pray because the Hadith's show you but if I ask you to understand that MOHAMMED HAD 12 SUCCESSORS AND ITS WRITTEN IN HADITH AND we can understand who they are through the QURAN you just don't want to accept it?

who are the 12 bro?come man its been 3 hours ive been asking you

Who Are The 12?

=]

brother why do you keep skipping on to next questions?

brother you have to understan QURAN AL KARIM STATES READ SALAH.....YES?

SO WE READ!!!

YOU OBVIOUSLY READ DIFFERENT ACCORDING TO YOUR HADITH , OURS STATE DIFFERENT

but the main thing is QURAN mentions it!!

now can it be said same for imamate? is it mentioned in QURAN.......NO

but your hadiths say iot does and ours doesnt

so i say lets stick to QURAN

its that simple brother you know like this verse

And We have certainly made the Quran easy for remembrance, so is there any who will remember?}[Quran 54:17]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We dont care what your tafsir say, Imamat is clear in Quran, Allah appoints Imams in many verses of Quran (This is main article of faith ''Imamat''), When it comes to ''12 Imams'' it is explanatory part and it comes with Sunnah/Tafsir.

وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He (Ibrahim) said: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers." Quran [2:124]

Nice try in altering the meaning of the verse, his offspring is referring to Prophets as it says in this verse:

"And We gave (Abraham) Isaac and Jacob and ordained among his progeny Prophethood and Revelation and We granted him his reward in this life; and he was in the Hereafter (of the company) of the Righteous."

Surat Al-`Ankabūt Verse 27

It doesn't say Allah(swt) placed in his descendants Prophethood, scripture, and Imams as you erroneously claim. Once again, the Quran has destroyed your concept of Imamate.

Edited by igotquestions

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...