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In the Name of God بسم الله

Disowning Children

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Salaams,

I witnessed a mother disowning her son over an argument over something and he said some nasty things, however i was speaking to the son who said he has asked his mother for forgiveness but was told that she would "think about it". Now the issue is that he really wants to reconcile but Islamically if a person is disowned then they will go to hell. I want to help him because he really is genuine about wanting his mothers forgivness, and he told me hes prayed to Allah and cried even for His forgivness aswell.

What can he do to seek his mothers forgivness? will be still go to hell even if he gets it?

jazakAllah,

wasalaam

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I can understand that having good intention towards your parents is a way of worshipping God, because it is putting yoursef in alignment with God. But it seems starnge to suggest that by not doing that you are automatically in 'hell', BUT that would depend on your perception of what hell is. If you perceieve hell very literally to be a place of excruciating tortures then going there just for a rude word to your mother seems somewhat extreme. On the other hand, if you see hell as any state that is not aligned with God, that would include all states of discomfort/dis-ease - so the son is already 'in hell' as it were, with his distress over what he said. All he can do now is correct his intention from now on. Forgiveness is encouraged by God also, so while his mother is not gorgiving him and is angry at him, she could also be said to be out of alignment with God and her bad feeling thats preventing her forgiving him is her 'hell'.

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All he can do is keep asking for her forgiveness and pray to Allah, it is very important that a mother is able to forgive her child.

If he is in the right then his mother should eventually come roundand be able to forgive him.

As a mother no matter what my child does i dont think i would ever be able to disown him. Even if he sins, disowning your own child does not help his situation, teach him to ask Allah for forgiveness, teach him right and wrong but do not just disown your child over the smallest thing.

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Wouldn't disowning your child constitute as a major sin of breaking relations?

This. Someone might want to tell all these parents in certain communities that are ready to disown their kids at the drop of a hat that it is actually a major sin, that is more likely to send them to hell than their kids.

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All he can do is keep asking for her forgiveness and pray to Allah, it is very important that a mother is able to forgive her child.

If he is in the right then his mother should eventually come roundand be able to forgive him.

As a mother no matter what my child does i dont think i would ever be able to disown him. Even if he sins, disowning your own child does not help his situation, teach him to ask Allah for forgiveness, teach him right and wrong but do not just disown your child over the smallest thing.

thank you, it was actually both their faults but when he said some things to his mother, they were hurtful and very unlike him but i hope for his sake and for hers that they sort it out inshaAllah

your all right in this case, but the Quran does say that not even to say 'oof' to your parents and the things he said was painful to hear and i know it hurt his mother a lot. He is really sorry because he said things in the fit of anger but inshaAllah she will forgive him.

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We all say things when we are angry which we later regret, and we all go through a phase where we 'rebel' against our parents. Whats important is to learn from your mistakes and ask for forgiveness and to not repeat the same mistakes.

InshAllah Allah will help him through this and allow his mother to forgive him.

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Disowning children? Seems like some Western propaganda against Brown people. No one disowns a child or a relative unless something very huge was done like murder, rape, etc. You sure the mother isn't just upset?

Are you serious? Children get disowned all the time for objectively trivial reasons that are seen as grave cultural sins. Next you will be telling us that nobody commits honour killings, and it's just 'Western' (i.e. White) propaganda against 'Brown people'.

All you have to do is read these forums (or use google) to see the number of people that have been threatened with being disowned for all kinds of reasons, mostly related to who they want (or don't want) to marry.

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Are you serious? Children get disowned all the time for objectively trivial reasons that are seen as grave cultural sins. Next you will be telling us that nobody commits honour killings, and it's just 'Western' (i.e. White) propaganda against 'Brown people'.

All you have to do is read these forums (or use google) to see the number of people that have been threatened with being disowned for all kinds of reasons, mostly related to who they want (or don't want) to marry.

I'd say to same for honor killings as well. It's rare. Not part of Brown People Philosophy.

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I am though, just a little. These things aren't as big as people make them out to be.

Read 'Daughters of shame' by Jasvinder Sanghera.....Seriously scary book that shows how widespread the practice is...

Edited by lalala123
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I can understand that having good intention towards your parents is a way of worshipping God, because it is putting yoursef in alignment with God. But it seems starnge to suggest that by not doing that you are automatically in 'hell', BUT that would depend on your perception of what hell is. If you perceieve hell very literally to be a place of excruciating tortures then going there just for a rude word to your mother seems somewhat extreme. On the other hand, if you see hell as any state that is not aligned with God, that would include all states of discomfort/dis-ease - so the son is already 'in hell' as it were, with his distress over what he said. All he can do now is correct his intention from now on. Forgiveness is encouraged by God also, so while his mother is not gorgiving him and is angry at him, she could also be said to be out of alignment with God and her bad feeling thats preventing her forgiving him is her 'hell'.

This is aa good analysis. I like this respond more than any other. It makes perfect sense.

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Alhamdulillah they have worked it out so its all good now. This topics taken an interesting turn on forced marriages and honor killings BOTH of which are actually very common, i work in helping victims of FGM, forced marriages and honor killings.

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This. Someone might want to tell all these parents in certain communities that are ready to disown their kids at the drop of a hat that it is actually a major sin, that is more likely to send them to hell than their kids.

As if a parent would actually want to just throw their children out of their house at the drop of a hat, after he/she has done so much for their children... the number of ahadith that have come to us about showing the utmost respect and obedience to parents is enormous. It has been preferred to performing Jihad. You are asked to be kind to your parents even if they are Kafir.

So you don't get to speak about anyone's parents like this. You do not know the background story, so you don't even get to imply who's right or wrong let alone give a blanket statement about who is more likely to go to Hell. I don't know if you've experienced parenthood, but it looks like you haven't or you would have known a parent does not 'just' disowns their child. It rarely happens and if it does happens it usually happens for a good reason.

In a hadith from Imam Ja'far (a) from Bihaar al-Anwaar it has been said that among the people who will not enter Heaven is the person disowned by their parents.

الصادق عليه السلام قال : لا يدخل الجنة العاق لوالديه ، والمدمن الخمر ، والمنان بالفعال للخير إذا عمله

http://www.al-shia.o...behar71/108.htm

Also, from al-Kafi, vol.2, page 348 ( graded Hasan kal Sahih by Allama Majlisi) :

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن عبدالله بن المغيرة، عن أبي الحسن عليه السلام قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله: كن بارا واقتصر على الجنة وإن كنت عاقا [فظا] فاقتصر على النار

http://www.alseraj.n...kafi-2/139.html

Imam al-Ridha [a] relates that the Prophet (pbuh) has said: “Be good and kind to your parents so that your recompense is paradise, and if you have been disowned by them, your abode shall be the fire (of Hell).”

http://www.al-islam.org/FortyParents/

And let me assure you this is not a novel hadith - there's plenty more where that came from. Just follow the links.

(salam)

Edited by Basim Ali
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As if a parent would actually want to just throw their children out of their house at the drop of a hat, after he/she has done so much for their children... the number of ahadith that have come to us about showing the utmost respect and obedience to parents is enormous. It has been preferred to performing Jihad. You are asked to be kind to your parents even if they are Kafir.

So you don't get to speak about anyone's parents like this. You do not know the background story, so you don't even get to imply who's right or wrong let alone give a blanket statement about who is more likely to go to Hell. I don't know if you've experienced parenthood, but it looks like you haven't or you would have known a parent does not 'just' disowns their child. It rarely happens and if it does happens it usually happens for a good reason.

I wasn't talking about this specific case, but about cases where parents disown their kids for bad reasons.

And yes, people do get disowned or threaten with being disowned (at which point they usually fall into line) for what I would consider to be trivial reasons. For example, a common one is for marrying the wrong person. You don't think that it happens that when a born Muslim girl from certain backward communities wants to marry a convert, that she doesn't get threatened with being disowned? If she then went ahead with it against her parents wishes (which she would have the right to do since their objection would be unislamic), you don't think she would get disowned?

This idea that people try to propagate that parents always do what is best for their kids, or want what's best for their kids is nonsense. Sure, they may want that, but within their own cultural framework, which may not be what is objectively right, according to Islam.

The fact is that in most cases, this tactic scares kids off from going against their parents, so not too many actually get disowned, but you can bet that it gets threatened a lot.

In a hadith from Imam Ja'far (a) from Bihaar al-Anwaar it has been said that among the people who will not enter Heaven is the person disowned by their parents.

الصادق عليه السلام قال : لا يدخل الجنة العاق لوالديه ، والمدمن الخمر ، والمنان بالفعال للخير إذا عمله

http://www.al-shia.o...behar71/108.htm

Also, from al-Kafi, vol.2, page 348 ( graded Hasan kal Sahih by Allama Majlisi) :

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن عبدالله بن المغيرة، عن أبي الحسن عليه السلام قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله: كن بارا واقتصر على الجنة وإن كنت عاقا [فظا] فاقتصر على النار

http://www.alseraj.n...kafi-2/139.html

Imam al-Ridha [a] relates that the Prophet (pbuh) has said: “Be good and kind to your parents so that your recompense is paradise, and if you have been disowned by them, your abode shall be the fire (of Hell).”

http://www.al-islam.org/FortyParents/

And let me assure you this is not a novel hadith - there's plenty more where that came from. Just follow the links.

(salam)

Do you think that someone disowned by their parents for bad reasons would go to Hell? I'm assuming not, so I have no idea why you would post those ahadith. Obviously nobody is talking about someone who has been disowned for wronging their parents.

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I wasn't talking about this specific case, but about cases where parents disown their kids for bad reasons.

I'm sorry, I thought the OP was asking for specific advice instead of our general opinion on what we think about 'modern' parents threatening to disown their children for not marrying the suitor of their choice. FYI the mashhoor opinion says if a virgin girl marries a boy without the permission of her guardian she would have done so in clear disobedience to Islamic laws. The marriage would be considered void in the eyes of Islam. Even if the person is suitable for her, she can't just go ahead and marry him. A judge/just scholar is the only one who can grant her permission. So you're wrong there too. Your example is a poor example of a bad reason to disown your child.

Do you think that someone disowned by their parents for bad reasons would go to Hell? I'm assuming not, so I have no idea why you would post those ahadith. Obviously nobody is talking about someone who has been disowned for wronging their parents.

You just agreed with someone a couple of posts ago about how it is a major sin to disown your children. Hence the ahadith. There's no such thing as a bad reason to disown your kids. In the very unlikely scenario that your parent has threatened to disown you for a 'wrong' reason, you would only benefit from submitting to their will.

All I'm saying is that you shouldn't underestimate the gravity of disobeying one's parents, and that disobedience to parents is never trivial (except of course if they're asking you to disobey God).

(salam)

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I'm sorry, I thought the OP was asking for specific advice instead of our general opinion on what we think about 'modern' parents threatening to disown their children for not marrying the suitor of their choice.

The discussion moved on, as it often does in threads...

FYI the mashhoor opinion says if a virgin girl marries a boy without the permission of her guardian she would have done so in clear disobedience to Islamic laws. The marriage would be considered void in the eyes of Islam. Even if the person is suitable for her, she can't just go ahead and marry him. A judge/just scholar is the only one who can grant her permission. So you're wrong there too.

So going against the mashhoor opinion translates into something being void in the eyes of Islam? That's interesting. What if the person follows a marja who allows them to get married without the parent's permission?

Anyway, where did I say that the girl wouldn't get the permission of the judge or jurist? Somehow I doubt that would make much difference to the parents in terms of their objection to the marriage.

Your example is a poor example of a bad reason to disown your child.

So if a parent disowns their child for marrying someone they object to for unislamic reasons, then that isn't a bad reason?

You just agreed with someone a couple of posts ago about how it is a major sin to disown your children. Hence the ahadith.

So it's not a sin to disown your children in situations such as the one I mentioned? Where do the hadiths you quoted say that it's not a sin anyway? Why shouldn't all the ahadith on qataa ar-rahm and silat ar-rahm not apply to parents cutting off ties with their kids? I don't see that exception being made anywhere.

There's no such thing as a bad reason to disown your kids.

I don't see how you could possibly think that. Rather, I would say that there are very few good reasons for disowning your kids. The only one I could possibly think of is if your child essentially became an open enemy of God.

In the very unlikely scenario that your parent has threatened to disown you for a 'wrong' reason, you would only benefit from submitting to their will.

All I'm saying is that you shouldn't underestimate the gravity of disobeying one's parents, and that disobedience to parents is never trivial (except of course if they're asking you to disobey God).

Well, in the case of marriage, I would say it touches on religion quite a bit, so their objection could be very close to asking you to disobey God.

Anyway, nobody is underestimating the gravity of disobeying one's parents. It is also a major sin to do so, however that doesn't mean they have to right to oppress their kids, and the kids just have to put up with it. In the well-known book Greater Sins, in the chapter on Aaq al-Walidayn, the following example is given of when one would not have to obey his parents:

Obedience to parents is not obligatory in the following cases:

When it causes unbearable hardships or harm. For instance, if they restrain the son from marriage when he feels the need for it. Or they order the son to divorce his wife without a sound reason. If such an action will result in harm to both the spouses, it is not obligatory to obey the parents.

Somehow I don't think that if the parents disown the son for getting married when he feels the need for it, that he is going to end up in Hell. Notice also the mention of them asking something that would cause unbearable hardships or harm, ruling out parents being able to oppress their children,

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The discussion moved on, as it often does in threads...

Digressed is the word. The question you replied to was specific and only you would know how the discussion suddenly turned into one about bad parents.

So going against the mashhoor opinion translates into something being void in the eyes of Islam? That's interesting. What if the person follows a marja who allows them to get married without the parent's permission?

Anyway, where did I say that the girl wouldn't get the permission of the judge or jurist? Somehow I doubt that would make much difference to the parents in terms of their objection to the marriage.

I don't understand your obsession with aberrations. If a person follows one of those people it would often just be because he can have his peace of mind that he's following someone 'learned' while doing what he wants to do. So even their Taqleed is in doubt, to begin with. I just don't get how anyone can just follow an unorthodox opinion regarding such important matters.

It's not going against the mashhoor opinion that would make your marriage void, rather it's going against established laws that would. When a Qadhi decides something a lot of Islamic laws are more or less 'overwritten'. For example, the wife who is not normally allowed to disobey her husband can obtain Khula from him via a Qadhi even if the husband does not assent to it.

So if a parent disowns their child for marrying someone they object to for unislamic reasons, then that isn't a bad reason?

I hope you're not making such a situation up because honestly I've never heard of such a thing happening. It is very, very unlikely that the son/daughter picks a good spouse for themselves and the parents refuse just because he's a convert. The parents refusal would more likely be because the son/daughter does something like elope with a white guy/girl they fell in love with in highschool.

So it's not a sin to disown your children in situations such as the one I mentioned? Where do the hadiths you quoted say that it's not a sin anyway? Why shouldn't all the ahadith on qataa ar-rahm and silat ar-rahm not apply to parents cutting off ties with their kids? I don't see that exception being made anywhere.

Uhm... if it was problematic I'd think the Imams wouldn't chastise the children who get disowned since then, the children were being subject to injustice. How can you even ask such a question? You don't seem to be aware of amm and khaas laws.

I don't see how you could possibly think that. Rather, I would say that there are very few good reasons for disowning your kids. The only one I could possibly think of is if your child essentially became an open enemy of God.

I agree completely to this. I don't say there are very many reasons to disown your children. But when a parent does end up doing it, it will almost certainly be for the few reasons like the one your mention.

Well, in the case of marriage, I would say it touches on religion quite a bit, so their objection could be very close to asking you to disobey God.

Anyway, nobody is underestimating the gravity of disobeying one's parents. It is also a major sin to do so, however that doesn't mean they have to right to oppress their kids, and the kids just have to put up with it. In the well-known book Greater Sins, in the chapter on Aaq al-Walidayn, the following example is given of when one would not have to obey his parents:

Again the marriage thing is not as common as you make it sound.

I never said the kids have to put up with irrational demands of parents. But they are still his/her parents and all the conditions of obedience (except in that particular matter) and respect to them still apply. If they just walk away from them, the children would also be sinning.

Somehow I don't think that if the parents disown the son for getting married when he feels the need for it, that he is going to end up in Hell. Notice also the mention of them asking something that would cause unbearable hardships or harm, ruling out parents being able to oppress their children,

A parent won't disown his son for marrying a suitable Muslimah. Period. This is a parent-son relationship we're talking about, not a boss and his employee's in which the boss would just fire the employee for disobedience. Even the thought of a parent oppressing their child is hard for me to digest. Are you actually telling me a mother bears her son for 9 months, suckles and weans him, so she can eventually oppress him?

I know there are horrible parents who are involved in even the murder of their own children but that's extremely rare and it wouldn't exactly take a rocket scientist to figure out who's wrong in such cases. But because of these few cases, we can't really let children have a care-free attitude that they can disobey their parents if they 'know they're right' and the parents would go to Hell for getting mad at them. That's just basically encouraging rebellious behavior.

(salam)

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