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In the Name of God بسم الله

Not Sure About Twelver

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  • Advanced Member

I'm just starting to dig deeper into which madhab of Shia is correct. So far the Jarudiyyah branch of the Zaidi seems to make sense. On the other hand the Twelvers also seem to have some strong arguments. So here's 2 questions I hope you can help me answer as I seek to find the truth.

1. I am given to understand that many madhabs of Islam , not just Twelver Shia believe there will or have been 12 Imams culminating with Imam Mahdi. But the Twelvers, that I know of, are the only ones who claim that it would be 12 IN A ROW. In other words there would / will never be a time when there is not a living functioning Imam. What is the evidence rationale for this ?

2. In the history I've read it seems to indicate that the Jarudiyyah died out because they were forced to become Twelvers. Isn't it possible that they survived by practicing taqiyah ? And even if not forcing someone to change their opinion by threat or use of violence doesn't invalidate their argument it just ends the debate. So what is are the logical reasons the Jarudiyyah are/were supposedly misguided ?

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well the first question the answer is simple, just look at a time line of the Alhul Bayt, there was a Imam alive since Hazrat Ali took the throne, there graves are all over the middle east. if you chronologically look at the years they were all one after another. as of right now the 12th Imam is in Occulation and will not appear until the day of jugement.

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  • Veteran Member

I'm just starting to dig deeper into which madhab of Shia is correct. So far the Jarudiyyah branch of the Zaidi seems to make sense. On the other hand the Twelvers also seem to have some strong arguments. So here's 2 questions I hope you can help me answer as I seek to find the truth.

1. I am given to understand that many madhabs of Islam , not just Twelver Shia believe there will or have been 12 Imams culminating with Imam Mahdi. But the Twelvers, that I know of, are the only ones who claim that it would be 12 IN A ROW. In other words there would / will never be a time when there is not a living functioning Imam. What is the evidence rationale for this ?

2. In the history I've read it seems to indicate that the Jarudiyyah died out because they were forced to become Twelvers. Isn't it possible that they survived by practicing taqiyah ? And even if not forcing someone to change their opinion by threat or use of violence doesn't invalidate their argument it just ends the debate. So what is are the logical reasons the Jarudiyyah are/were supposedly misguided ?

1. The rationale is simple. Allah is All Knowing and Just. His system is perfect. He isnt just going to give us 124000 prophets and a book and let us be on our own. Look at the injustice that is going around in the world today. You think God isnt going to do something about it? The purpose of the Imam is to guide mankind, lead, enjoin good and forbid evil, bring justice by the Will of Allah. There must be a guide at all times, and the 12 will be with us until judgement day. He is waiting until Allah calls him from occultation to come with Jesus A.S and bring Peace on earth finally for once and for all.

Necessity of Existence of 12 imam http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter2/4.html

http://www.al-islam.org/mahdi/nontl/Toc.htm

2. Look at hadiths and see who truly is the successor, there must be tweleve. They claim Zaid should be next imam, but clearly Imam Zainuabedeen Chose Imam Baqir. Zaid also died which means imamate stopped, that cant be. Also compare theology and see which makes more sense..

Here is some info on him: http://www.imamreza.net/eng/list.php?id=010307

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well the first question the answer is simple, just look at a time line of the Alhul Bayt, there was a Imam alive since Hazrat Ali took the throne, there graves are all over the middle east. if you chronologically look at the years they were all one after another. as of right now the 12th Imam is in Occulation and will not appear until the day of jugement.

dont mean to correct you bro but 12th imam will return before the day of judgement right and bring peace to the word and then will come DOJ

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  • Advanced Member

I'm just starting to dig deeper into which madhab of Shia is correct. So far the Jarudiyyah branch of the Zaidi seems to make sense. On the other hand the Twelvers also seem to have some strong arguments. So here's 2 questions I hope you can help me answer as I seek to find the truth.

1. I am given to understand that many madhabs of Islam , not just Twelver Shia believe there will or have been 12 Imams culminating with Imam Mahdi. But the Twelvers, that I know of, are the only ones who claim that it would be 12 IN A ROW. In other words there would / will never be a time when there is not a living functioning Imam. What is the evidence rationale for this ?

2. In the history I've read it seems to indicate that the Jarudiyyah died out because they were forced to become Twelvers. Isn't it possible that they survived by practicing taqiyah ? And even if not forcing someone to change their opinion by threat or use of violence doesn't invalidate their argument it just ends the debate. So what is are the logical reasons the Jarudiyyah are/were supposedly misguided ?

During your search, hold on something firm, something solid and divine. Do not let your soul swims in darkness unguarded. Find something to relay on during your uncertain moments, something that bring comfort when doubts hunt you.

Allah is One, He has installed fitra in us, He created us in a way to recognize Him without being taught. Allah sent messengers to us to guide us to Him, to learn what pleases Him. Messengers died but left behind them many teachings and books.

Our messenger was the last one, no more revelation to be awaited for. This last revelation is the complete and the conclusion. Our prophet before he dies had advised us. The prophet of mercy said that the only way to thank me and to repay me is to love my household. Prophet said that those two, the book and the household will not be separate from each other till the day of judgment.Prophet also said that there will be successors after me, from my household, their words will be sunnah like my words. Prophet said that the lovers of his household should follow those successors because he,the divine messenger, had appointed them therefore they are divine successors.

The Jarudeyyah deny the obvious, they deny that there were hadiths that state clearly that Imam Ali is the successor after the prophet. They also deny that Imam Zayn Albdeen was the Imam after Imam Husain. They claim that Imamah (divine leadership) ends with Imam Husain, that Imamh of Zayed is wordily, the imam being chosen by the people

But then they went to claim 4 of their Imams are the Mahdi, that they went into ghaybah/occultation and that they will appear at the end of days. Mahdi is highly respectable figure in Islam, the changes of the world that will happen during his era are magnificent. Imam Sadiq says that if you prayed to be with Mahdi, you should pray that your deen/religion will be clear, because the days before his are days of difficulties, his days will be days of judgment in dunyia.

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  • Veteran Member

(salam),

I haven't really looked too deeply into aberrant sects so I will just reply to your first query.

1. I am given to understand that many madhabs of Islam , not just Twelver Shia believe there will or have been 12 Imams culminating with Imam Mahdi. But the Twelvers, that I know of, are the only ones who claim that it would be 12 IN A ROW. In other words there would / will never be a time when there is not a living functioning Imam. What is the evidence rationale for this ?

Well first of all, and you've almost certainly heard of this argument before, the Qur'an explicitly states that all the people will be summoned on the Day of Resurrection along with their respective Imams.

يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِمْ ۖ فَمَنْ أُوتِيَ كِتَابَهُ بِيَمِينِهِ فَأُولَٰئِكَ يَقْرَءُونَ كِتَابَهُمْ وَلَا يُظْلَمُونَ فَتِيلًا

(Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly. (17:71)

Now according to some Mufassireen the word Imam here means a record/book as in 'Imamin Mubeen'. But it is just an opinion. We have ahadith that state that the word Imam has been used here for leadership. I personally don't get why a single verse would use two words for the same object (book; imam and kitaab) unless it wants to make a distinction between the two.

Secondly, corroborating this verse is the very famous hadith of the Prophet (pbuh) reported in Imami and Sunni texts which says that anyone who dies without recognizing the Imam of his time, has died a death of Jahiliyyah [paganism]. This is obviously not referring to the Prophethood of the Prophet (pbuh) [as some people say it does] as someone who dies without testifying to his prophethood is already a Kafir and Mushrik [that is, there'd be no point in labeling him a pagan, as it makes no difference]. So one has to have an Imam at every point from the start of this world till the end.

Finally, we have innumerable ahadith which state that the presence of an Imam is an absolute necessity at all times. From one of the most comprehensive collection of ahadith on Imam al-Asr (ajf), Kamaal al-Din wa Tamaan al-Ni`ma by Shaykh al-Saduq:

حدثنا محمد بن أحمد الشيباني رضي الله عنه قال: حدثنا أحمد بن يحيى ابن زكريا القطان قال: حدثنا بكر بن عبد الله بن حبيب قال: حدثنا الفضل بن صقر العبدي قال: حدثنا أبو معاوية، عن سليمان بن مهران الاعمش، عن الصادق جعفر بن محمد، عن أبيه محمد بن علي، عن أبيه علي بن الحسين عليهم السلام قال: نحن أئمة المسلمين، وحجج الله على العالمين، وسادة المؤمنين، وقادة الغر المحجلين، وموالي المؤمنين، ونحن أمان لاهل الارض كما أن النجوم أمان لاهل السماء، ونحن الذين بنا يمسك الله السماء أن تقع على الارض إلا بإذنه، وبنا يمسك الارض أن تميد بأهلها وبنا ينزل الغيث، وتنشر الرحمة، وتخرج بركات الارض، ولولا ما في الارض منا لساخت بأهلها، ثم قال: ولم تخل الارض منذ خلق الله آدم من حجة الله فيها ظاهر مشهور أو غائب مستور ولا تخلوا إلى أن تقوم الساعة من حجة الله فيها، ولولا ذلك لم يعبد الله. قال: سليمان، فقلت للصادق عليه السلام: فكيف ينتفع الناس بالحجة الغائب المستور ؟ قال: كما ينتفعون بالشمس إذا سترها السحاب.

22 - Narrated to us Muhammad bin Ahmad Shaibani (r.a.) narrated to us Ahmad bin Yahya bin Zakariya al-Qattan narrated to us Bakr bin Abdullah bin Habib narrated to us Fadl bin Saqr Abdi narrated to us Abu Muawiyah from Sulaiman bin Mehran Amash from As-Sadiq Ja’far bin Muhammad from his father Muhammad bin Ali from his father Ali bin Husain (a.s.) that he said:

“We are the Imams of the Muslims, and the proofs of Allah on the whole universe. We are chieftains of the believers, and the brilliant-faced guides and we are having absolute authority on the believers. We are such a security for people on the earth, like the stars are for the dwellers of the heavens. And those for whose sake the Almighty Allah has restrained the heaven from falling into the earth and secured the earth from shaking up those who dwell upon it. The rain falls due to us and the blessings of the earth are distributed and are brought out of the earth. If none of us remains on the earth, it would swallow its dwellers, and the Almighty Allah has not left the earth without a Proof (Hujjat) since the time of the creation of Prophet Nuh (a.s.), whether it is apparent and obvious or unseen and hidden. And the earth shall not be devoid of Proof till the Dooms day occurs. If there is no Proof of Allah, none would worship the Almighty. Someone asked: Then how would people derive benefit from an unseen and hidden proof? The Imam replied: “Just as they receive benefits from the sun that is hidden behind the clouds.”

http://www.scribd.co...Kamal-ad-Deen-1

(also, I'd recommend you go to the above link and read a bit, as it has some solid refutations of the Zaydiyyah sect by Shaykh Saduq himself)

Fi Amaanillah

Edited by Basim Ali
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You know Sunnis and Salafis are better than you.

Sunnis and Salafis might not have the truth in front of them and they could be ignorant, so they would follow the wrong path. But you a Shia, have the truth right in front of you, and then you don't want to follow the 12 Imams. What a shame.

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  • Advanced Member

You know Sunnis and Salafis are better than you.

Sunnis and Salafis might not have the truth in front of them and they could be ignorant, so they would follow the wrong path. But you a Shia, have the truth right in front of you, and then you don't want to follow the 12 Imams. What a shame.

What are you talking about ? I decided NOT to be a Sunni or Salafi because it became apparent to me that they are in error. I was raised a Christian. I decided, upon examination , that Christianity was in error and embraced the holy faith of Al-Islam. The muslims I knew were Sunnis and salafis and those were the masjids that I went to. But when I heard them talking bad about Shia I decided to find out for myself what the difference between Sunni and shia was for myself instead of just listening to hateful rantings.

But I am man enough to admit that I don't know everything. I am aware that there are different types of shia and so I am exploring what the differences are between them and why. THERE ARE NO SHIA MASJID IN MY AREA WHERE ENGLISH IS SPOKEN so it's not lik somebody educated me about Twelver Shia doctrine and I rejected it or any other Shia madhab and I rejected it. I HAVEN'T REFUSED TO FOLLOW ANYBODY.

What I am doing is trying to LEARN about these madhabs so that when I commit myself I will know that I am correct. I might become a Twelver. I'm not saying I won't . But if and when I do it WON'T be because of foul mouthed people like you japping off at the jaw to people they don't know because they are trying to learn about Islam. Period.

You have an attitude problem

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You know Sunnis and Salafis are better than you.

Sunnis and Salafis might not have the truth in front of them and they could be ignorant, so they would follow the wrong path. But you a Shia, have the truth right in front of you, and then you don't want to follow the 12 Imams. What a shame.

Brother please be polite. We are followers of the true deen. You must speak nicley. This man is searching for the truth. Whether he is a Sunni or shia doesn't make a difference as long as he is striving, and I respect that. By talking like this it might make people look away...

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Brother please be polite. We are followers of the true deen. You must speak nicley. This man is searching for the truth. Whether he is a Sunni or shia doesn't make a difference as long as he is striving, and I respect that. By talking like this it might make people look away...

Thank you.

For the record I AM committed to being a SHIA muslim. As far as MYSELF somebody speaking rudely would never turn me away but it really makes no sense to demand allegiance without sharing info. Even though I don't speak Arabic the Shia masjid I have been to have been VERY welcoming and yes they are Twelver. Just this past weekend I was at what I now call my home masjid the Ahl ul Bayt center in Evanston , Illinois Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday as they held special services (I don't know what the proper term to use is here ) commemorating Fatima Zahra(AS) and The shaykh speaks just enough English that he was able to , upon my request,watch me perform salat and correct me so that I am now performing it in the proper manner according to the Ithna Ashari/Jafari madhab. I know just enough words that I was able to find out something I didn't know before, namely that abu bakr had mistreated Fatima Zahra (as) badly after the death of the Prophet Muhammad (SAWS).

I wish there was an Islamic bookstore that sold SHIA literature around here. things like Shia books of hadith as opposed to the Bukhari and sahih Muslim and Abu Dawood ones I am used to since I used to be a Sunni.

But what I really am trying to do is to hear/ read the Jafari school state its case and the Zaidi school state its case, weigh the evidence and come to a final conclusion. That way I won't have any doubts at all that I am in the correct madhab. I don't think there's anything wrong with that and for the most part everybody here has been very supportive.

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  • Advanced Member

You know Sunnis and Salafis are better than you.

Sunnis and Salafis might not have the truth in front of them and they could be ignorant, so they would follow the wrong path. But you a Shia, have the truth right in front of you, and then you don't want to follow the 12 Imams. What a shame.

It won't cost you anything to be more polite brother. The OP is asking for more knowledge so that he can make a decision that will change his course of life. It is infact a shame, if Shias put on such an unwelcoming behaviour up their sleeve for somebody who is searching for truth and asking genuine questions.

Thank you.

For the record I AM committed to being a SHIA muslim. As far as MYSELF somebody speaking rudely would never turn me away but it really makes no sense to demand allegiance without sharing info. Even though I don't speak Arabic the Shia masjid I have been to have been VERY welcoming and yes they are Twelver. Just this past weekend I was at what I now call my home masjid the Ahl ul Bayt center in Evanston , Illinois Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday as they held special services (I don't know what the proper term to use is here ) commemorating Fatima Zahra(AS) and The shaykh speaks just enough English that he was able to , upon my request,watch me perform salat and correct me so that I am now performing it in the proper manner according to the Ithna Ashari/Jafari madhab. I know just enough words that I was able to find out something I didn't know before, namely that abu bakr had mistreated Fatima Zahra (as) badly after the death of the Prophet Muhammad (SAWS).

I wish there was an Islamic bookstore that sold SHIA literature around here. things like Shia books of hadith as opposed to the Bukhari and sahih Muslim and Abu Dawood ones I am used to since I used to be a Sunni.

But what I really am trying to do is to hear/ read the Jafari school state its case and the Zaidi school state its case, weigh the evidence and come to a final conclusion. That way I won't have any doubts at all that I am in the correct madhab. I don't think there's anything wrong with that and for the most part everybody here has been very supportive.

That is very nice to hear. And of course you'll find tons of reading materials on SC and other websites. I am running out of time, but check al-islam.org

They've got some cool stuff and yeah, we're all ears to hear your conversion story. Welcome aboard and may Allah ease your troubles.

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