~ Christian Doctrinal Dilemma Part 4 ~

[inferno]

Dear Christians,

You are always talking about God as a "Father," and as "The Christian God of Love." Real love accepts and overlooks the shortcomings and mistakes of the beloved if the beloved is otherwise good, and has turned from its mistakes. This is true of the love of human parents, anyway.

Does your image of God's love lag behind that of the merely human?

And if God is unhappy with the residue of our sins upon us, then He has the power to simply remove it, doesn't He? This is essentially your belief, when it comes down to it; you just add in a passion play as a colorful mechanism for God to carry out this desire to clean humans. You say that God decided to clean humans from their sins, and in order to do so, God descended to earth in human form, to sacrifice Himself, to Himself, in order to convince Himself to intercede with Himself to forgive the sins of humanity. I say if He wants to do so, he will simply do so.

Who is to stop Him?

[eThErEaL]

Have you considered why Christians believe in Hell by any chance?

Edited March 15, 2013 by eThErEaL

[taino3six]

i used to be a christian and we were taught to do everything in jesus' name... invoke prayers in his name, bless your food in his name, seek refuge with god in his name... etc... personally i always had an issue with this... i always wondered why jesus, as it states in the bible, even prayed to god if he was actually god himself... incarnate in the flesh...??? the so called learned would then tell me he was the son and not the father... so then i would ask well why not just pray to the father like him? they would then say because we have to believe in his sacrifice and only through him we would have eternal life... so i wondered if it even mattered that i prayed directly to god the father since it is essentially one in the same...??? why not go straight to the source..??? i mean i want to pray to whoever jesus is praying to you know!??! made sense to me...

my questions would never have a meaningful answer and it is just a roundabout and vicious circle... they would just tell me you have to have faith and that is the whole purpose of belief... for belief without faith is fruitless... the problem with that is i did not believe... you see the problem??? lol...

[CLynn]

Part 4?

Two things came to mind:

¹⁶ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

¹⁹ We love Him, because He first loved us.

God sent his Son in a demonstration of His great Love for us, that by this Love and great sacrifice, we are led to love Him.

for, 'what greater love than there is this, but that one lay down his life for another'?

and so a third:

¹³ Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

How can we not love the One who lay down His life for us?

and true love is this;

If a man love Me, he will keep My words

Yeshua leads us to God... leads us to Love.

⁸ He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for God is love.

Salaam.

Edited March 15, 2013 by CLynn

[eThErEaL]

I can't wait for "Christian Dilemma Part 5".

[Robin Hood]

Part 4?

Two things came to mind:

¹⁶ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

¹⁹ We love Him, because He first loved us.

God sent his Son in a demonstration of His great Love for us, that by this Love and great sacrifice, we are led to love Him.

for, 'what greater love than there is this, but that one lay down his life for another'?

and so a third:

¹³ Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

How can we not love the One who lay down His life for us?

and true love is this;

If a man love Me, he will keep My words

Yeshua leads us to God... leads us to Love.

⁸ He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for God is love.

Salaam.

So if I understand this correctly, God sent Jesus just to show the world He loves them, and not because He needed that Jesus dies on the cross to forgive human sins?

Dear Christians,

You are always talking about God as a "Father," and as "The Christian God of Love." Real love accepts and overlooks the shortcomings and mistakes of the beloved if the beloved is otherwise good, and has turned from its mistakes. This is true of the love of human parents, anyway.

Does your image of God's love lag behind that of the merely human?

And if God is unhappy with the residue of our sins upon us, then He has the power to simply remove it, doesn't He? This is essentially your belief, when it comes down to it; you just add in a passion play as a colorful mechanism for God to carry out this desire to clean humans. You say that God decided to clean humans from their sins, and in order to do so, God descended to earth in human form, to sacrifice Himself, to Himself, in order to convince Himself to intercede with Himself to forgive the sins of humanity. I say if He wants to do so, he will simply do so.

Who is to stop Him?

What you're giving here is an interpretation of the trinity from a Muslim.

I can't wait for "Christian Dilemma Part 5".

All these stuff are nothing but Muslim interpretations of Christian beliefs.

[CLynn]

So if I understand this correctly, God sent Jesus just to show the world He loves them, and not because He needed that Jesus dies on the cross to forgive human sins?

Greetings Robin Hood,

That is how He saves us... dying on the cross for us we are saved because we see what great love God has for us and in turn we come to love God. Yeshua leads us to God, and that is how we are saved. When we accept Yeshua and the sacrifice made for our sakes, we come to love God... we repent and turn from our sins, and this is how we are saved... forgiven... washed clean.

Salaam.

Edited March 16, 2013 by CLynn

[eThErEaL]

Yes, I agree with you Robin. I was being sarcastic.

Edited March 16, 2013 by eThErEaL

[eThErEaL]

I like your punching cat. :)

so i wondered if it even mattered that i prayed directly to god the father since it is essentially one in the same...??? why not go straight to the source..??? i mean i want to pray to whoever jesus is praying to you know!??! made sense to me...

When a Christian prays to the Father and recognizes Him, Jesus is necessarily present in that prayer and that recognition because what defines the perfect prayer and what manifests (makes known) the Father is Jesus Christ himself (who is the perfect image of God). Refusing to pray in the name "Jesus" is, for Christians, tantamount to refusing to participate in divine prayer or divine recognition itself.

[Son of Placid]

i used to be a christian and we were taught to do everything in jesus' name... invoke prayers in his name, bless your food in his name, seek refuge with god in his name... etc... personally i always had an issue with this... i always wondered why jesus, as it states in the bible, even prayed to god if he was actually god himself... incarnate in the flesh...??? the so called learned would then tell me he was the son and not the father... so then i would ask well why not just pray to the father like him? they would then say because we have to believe in his sacrifice and only through him we would have eternal life... so i wondered if it even mattered that i prayed directly to god the father since it is essentially one in the same...??? why not go straight to the source..??? i mean i want to pray to whoever jesus is praying to you know!??! made sense to me...

my questions would never have a meaningful answer and it is just a roundabout and vicious circle... they would just tell me you have to have faith and that is the whole purpose of belief... for belief without faith is fruitless... the problem with that is i did not believe... you see the problem??? lol...

Welcome to the forum, thanks for your honesty. Wow, I can so relate. I had four elders come to my house to bash me. They didn't change me. When God wants to give you truth, these guys get in the way. God serving, not likely.

I didn't have Islam in front of me so I'm still a Christian, and honestly not feeling wrong in doing so because there are things I would have to leave behind and can't, to become a Muslim. Not to say Muslims are wrong but allied troops need to see from another angle. Shaytan has this world pretty much controlled, there is us left. We need you like you need us in this battle. No joke. The world has serious problems only we see. Two united fronts are so much stronger. I applaud what the Muslims did this last Christmas season against the athiests, while the Christians sat back and said duhhh. The cross fire didn't come til later, but the Muslims here initiated the battle, Praise God for that. Calgarians are red necks to start with, just get them going.

uh oh, I feel a rant coming on...

I have been yearning years here (Note: joined Apr 2006) and haven't heard a Muslim tell me yet why he converted, what hit his heart, what gave him assurance, what gave him enough courage to leave his former faith, (and forceful doctrines)...I want to know how you know you made the right choice.

I'm serious when I say I want to talk to real Muslims. I want to know if you feel Allah as you read, as you pray, do you feel release from sin when you cry/repent. Do you see what caused it, do you recognize a new direction after...If you don't have it, I can't live without it.

We can yada yada infallible prophets all we like, but that's none of us.

Sorry, I've started threads with no replies, tell me if I'm asking too much.

[Renaissance_Man]

^

Son of Placid, check the reverts forum for reasons given by various people on this form who've converted. If you want to read detailed reasons about a person's struggles with Christianity and the reasons they left and were convinced of Islam, check out Sister Beatty's story here: http://www.al-islam....tionsnewmuslim/

In my experience, most people who leave Christianity do so for a few common reasons. One very common reason is difficulties accepting the Christian dogmas once they begin to examine the religion for themselves. I think few people take issue with the teachings of Jesus (as) which preach good morals, piety, and other values that all religions share and societies share. But they find it hard to understand or reconcile certain beliefs like atonement and the trinity without resorting to blind faith. Compare to Islam where the tenants are simple - unity of God, prophethood, prayer, fasting, etc - it's much more straightforward and a lot easier to digest. I know Christianity preaches faith without questioning on these matters, but it's hard for inquisitive minds to accept this especially when it comes to essential beliefs. Then when they open the Bible and see problematic verses (some of the OT stuff comes to mind) and discrepancies, the skepticism grows. Some of the stories in the Bible such as the creation accounts in Genesis and stories of rape and murder can be unsettling to say the least. Finally, I think spiritual dissatisfaction is another factor in why people leave Christianity. For many, a religion centered on the belief in a dying savior/diety to atone for your sins and doesn't offer much else beyond that simply doesn't fulfill them spiritually. Religions like Islam and even Buddhism for example which prescribe a way of life and philosophy go beyond just dogma and ultimately a deeper spiritual satisfaction.

Edited March 16, 2013 by Renaissance_Man

[nemesis]

In the name of our most beloved maker , who has created everything seen and unseen , who has given us his divine love .

TO ALL MY FELLOW BRETHREN MUSLIM OR CHRISTIAN OR JEW .

ONE WORD TO YOU ALL ... I LOVE YOU WITH ALL MY SOUL .

[Son of Placid]

^

Son of Placid, check the reverts forum for reasons given by various people on this form who've converted. If you want to read detailed reasons about a person's struggles with Christianity and the reasons they left and were convinced of Islam, check out Sister Beatty's story here: http://www.al-islam....tionsnewmuslim/

In my experience, most people who leave Christianity do so for a few common reasons. One very common reason is difficulties accepting the Christian dogmas once they begin to examine the religion for themselves. I think few people take issue with the teachings of Jesus (as) which preach good morals, piety, and other values that all religions share and societies share. But they find it hard to understand or reconcile certain beliefs like atonement and the trinity without resorting to blind faith. Compare to Islam where the tenants are simple - unity of God, prophethood, prayer, fasting, etc - it's much more straightforward and a lot easier to digest. I know Christianity preaches faith without questioning on these matters, but it's hard for inquisitive minds to accept this especially when it comes to essential beliefs. Then when they open the Bible and see problematic verses (some of the OT stuff comes to mind) and discrepancies, the skepticism grows. Some of the stories in the Bible such as the creation accounts in Genesis and stories of rape and murder can be unsettling to say the least. Finally, I think spiritual dissatisfaction is another factor in why people leave Christianity. For many, a religion centered on the belief in a dying savior/diety to atone for your sins and doesn't offer much else beyond that simply doesn't fulfill them spiritually. Religions like Islam and even Buddhism for example which prescribe a way of life and philosophy go beyond just dogma and ultimately a deeper spiritual satisfaction.

Thanks, that's great.

Only a third thru the intro but added to favs. I'm just about out the door and gonna be late if I don't get on the move.

Looking forward.

[inferno]

When a Christian prays to the Father and recognizes Him, Jesus is necessarily present in that prayer and that recognition because what defines the perfect prayer and what manifests (makes known) the Father is Jesus Christ himself (who is the perfect image of God). Refusing to pray in the name "Jesus" is, for Christians, tantamount to refusing to participate in divine prayer or divine recognition itself.

1. The Father can only be recognised through Jesus.

2. Without Jesus the Father cannot be recognised.

3. Therefore, as you said, the Father is Jesus Christ himself.

Thanks for reinforcing the argument of this thread:

This is essentially your belief, when it comes down to it; you just add in a passion play as a colorful mechanism for God to carry out this desire to clean humans. You say that God decided to clean humans from their sins, and in order to do so, God descended to earth in human form, to sacrifice Himself, to Himself, in order to convince Himself to intercede with Himself to forgive the sins of humanity.

[Ethics]

1. The Father can only be recognised through Jesus.

2. Without Jesus the Father cannot be recognised.

3. Therefore, as you said, the Father is Jesus Christ himself.

Thanks for reinforcing the argument of this thread:

wait so jesus is father and son?

[eThErEaL]

1. The Father can only be recognised through Jesus.

2. Without Jesus the Father cannot be recognised.

3. Therefore, as you said, the Father is Jesus Christ himself.

Thanks for reinforcing the argument of this thread:

Is this even a valid argument?

[eThErEaL]

Even though they are one or united, it is incorrect to say that Jesus is "identical" to the Father.

[Ibn al-Hassan]

^ So, is `Isa [as] simply the perfect manifestation of the Divine Names and Attributes in the Cosmos or is he more than that? In the Christian tradition, does he share in the Essence of the Almighty?

(wasalam)

[inferno]

Even though they are one or united, it is incorrect to say that Jesus is "identical" to the Father.

what manifests (makes known) the Father is Jesus Christ himself (who is the perfect image of God).

Jesus is the perfect image of God, the One who manifests the Father. They are one or united, inextricably linked to one another in essence. Logically, if one aspect of the Trinity is affected, the rest are equally affected. Jesus died on the cross. The Father also died because He cannot be known save through His Son. Therefore, God was negated from existence altogether.

:wacko:

[eThErEaL]

Jesus is the perfect image of God, the One who manifests the Father. They are one or united, inextricably linked to one another in essence. Logically, if one aspect of the Trinity is affected, the rest are equally affected. Jesus died on the cross. The Father also died because He cannot be known save through His Son. Therefore, God was negated from existence altogether.

:wacko:

We already discussed this. Remember I said that you are confusing Jesus for his historical manifestation? By the way, do you know what "image" means?

^ So, is `Isa [as] simply the perfect manifestation of the Divine Names and Attributes in the Cosmos or is he more than that? In the Christian tradition, does he share in the Essence of the Almighty?

(wasalam)

What do you mean by "share" in the Essence? Christians say that the Son of God eternally proceeds from the Father.

It is like, the "Breath of the All-Merciful" which is identified with the Reality of Prophet (S). The Breath issues forth from God Himself (not in time). And within the Breath each creature (each word) is "articulated". God creates by speaking. This should help us understand better.

Edited March 16, 2013 by eThErEaL

[CLynn]

When a Christian prays to the Father and recognizes Him, Jesus is necessarily present in that prayer and that recognition because what defines the perfect prayer and what manifests (makes known) the Father is Jesus Christ himself (who is the perfect image of God). Refusing to pray in the name "Jesus" is, for Christians, tantamount to refusing to participate in divine prayer or divine recognition itself.

Greetings eThErEaL,

I hope this isn't true, because while I believe in Yeshua and follow His teaching, I pray directly to God, the Father... in the words which Yeshua taught...

Our Father Who art in heaven

hallowed by Thy name

Thy kingdom come

Thy will be done

...

I pray to God.

Salaam.

Edited March 16, 2013 by CLynn

[eThErEaL]

Greetings eThErEaL,

I hope this isn't true, because while I believe in Yeshua and follow His teaching, I pray directly to God, the Father... in the words which Yeshua taught...

Our Father Who art in heaven

hallowed by Thy name

Thy kingdom come

Thy will be done

...

I pray to God.

Salaam.

Greetings,

You might have misunderstood me. I am not denying that Christians can pray that way (directly to the Father). But I assume you also believe:

14 “If you ask Me (Jesus) anything in My name, I will do it.

2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship (koinonia, communion) with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

In fact who told Christians to pray: "Our Father who art in heaven.."? Jesus. So whenever you pray that way you are automatically praying through Jesus. Jesus perfectly embodied that prayer. And when you pray that way you are participating in Jesus (your being in communion with Jesus).

Edited March 16, 2013 by eThErEaL

[inferno]

I pray directly to God, the Father.

Where's Jesus in your prayer? If you believe in the legitimacy of contacting the Father directly, you render the Son irrelevant. :wacko:

[andres]

Where's Jesus in your prayer? If you believe in the legitimacy of contacting the Father directly, you render the Son irrelevant. :wacko:

You do make strange conclusions. Maybe it will help your understanding to read the 6th chapter of Matthew Gospel. It will only take you a minute.

[inferno]

You do make strange conclusions. Maybe it will help your understanding to read the 6th chapter of Matthew Gospel. It will only take you a minute.

You're right. It took a minute, and I'm glad it did. It has no relevance at all. :wacko:

[CLynn]

Where's Jesus in your prayer? If you believe in the legitimacy of contacting the Father directly, you render the Son irrelevant. :wacko:

Greetings Inferno,

Not irrelevant, because it is the sacrifice made by the Son that leads me to such great love for the Father.

How could I possibly trample upon the blood so willingly sacrificed for my sake? How could I not obey the Father, knowing the sacrifice of the Son made for love of me?

Salaam.

[inferno]

Greetings Inferno,

Not irrelevant, because it is the sacrifice made by the Son that leads me to such great love for the Father.

How could I possibly trample upon the blood so willingly sacrificed for my sake? How could I not obey the Father, knowing the sacrifice of the Son made for love of me?

Salaam.

It appears the Father doesn't love you. He needed someone extraneous to His Self to forgive you and to enable His Self to answer your prayers.

[CLynn]

It appears the Father doesn't love you. He needed someone extraneous to His Self to forgive you and to enable His Self to answer your prayers.

Nah, you misundertand, but that is ok.

Did you see this;

"the Son that leads me"

the Son leads me.

Edited March 16, 2013 by CLynn

[Faithfully999]

Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim. As salaamu alaykum. Ya Nabi; Sallallahu 'alaihi wa salam -- May the Blessings and Peace of Allah be upon Him [and his Ahlul-Bayt].

Prophet Isa [Jesus, PBUH] was given miracles to prove His nearness to Allaah (SWT). He PBUH healed the sick, raised the dead, taught the way to salvation all with the leave of Allaah (SWT). But, some Christians would have me believe that He PBUH, had to be brutally beaten, and then hung on a cross until dead to prove God's love for humanity. How dare they accuse The All Merciful God, of bribery. Have they (the accusers) no shame?

Wassalaam. Faithfully999

[Son of Placid]

^{Matt 23: 34} Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, ³⁵ that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

Jesus wasn't the first or only prophet to die at the hands of others. Abel to Zechariah was quite a while. I'm assuming there were a couple prophets in between. The Quran confirms many prophets have been killed, but still no details.

³⁷ “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!

[inferno]

Nah, you misundertand, but that is ok.

Did you see this;

"the Son that leads me"

the Son leads me.

:huh:

No one recognized God before the crucifixion of Jesus? If you claim the recognition of the Father is absent without the Son, it presents a deficiency in the Father. God is free from any need.

According to your logic, you should be giving the Son priority over the Father. :lol:

Edited March 16, 2013 by inferno

[eThErEaL]

Prophet Isa [Jesus, PBUH] was given miracles to prove His nearness to Allaah (SWT). He PBUH healed the sick, raised the dead, taught the way to salvation all with the leave of Allaah (SWT). But, some Christians would have me believe that He PBUH, had to be brutally beaten, and then hung on a cross until dead to prove God's love for humanity. How dare they accuse The All Merciful God, of bribery. Have they (the accusers) no shame?

bribery?

[CLynn]

:huh:

No one recognized God before the crucifixion of Jesus? If you claim the recognition of the Father is absent without the Son, it presents a deficiency in the Father. God is free from any need.

According to your logic, you should be giving the Son priority over the Father.

Greetings inferno,

I made no such claim, and I am going on record to say I will not participate in any more silly arguing where you simply try to twist what I say. If you want serious discussion I am willing.

Salaam.

"the Son leads me."

to Him... the Father

Edited March 16, 2013 by CLynn

[eThErEaL]

I think we are now ready for "Christian Dilemma Part 5".

[andres]

You're right. It took a minute, and I'm glad it did. It has no relevance at all. :wacko:

And what is your motivation for it having no relevance at all?