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Robin Hood

Apostates: Why Did You Leave Islam?

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Very simple, once you understand the logic of why wouldnt a just and merciful God not have a guide on this earth to help the imperfect being strive towards the obedience of God ,you will see the absolute requirement of a divine being who will bring peace and justice on this corrupt world.

"And We assigned them Imams who guide by our authority and We have inspired in them the doing of good deeds." (Quran 21:73)

"And We appointed from among them some Imams who guide by our authority since they were patient and believed firmly in Our Signs." (Quran 32:24)

"O' you who believe! Obey Allah, and Obey Apostle and those from among you who are given authority (by Allah)." (Quran 4:59)

"(O' Muhammad!) You are but a Warner, and for every community there exists a Guide." (Quran 13:7)

"It is not for Allah to punish them while you are among them."(Quran 8:33) -Why do you think with all this gay stuff and injustice Allah hasnt sent down destruction upon us like other communities?

For the argument, how can he guide us if he cant see us, how does Allah help us if we cant see Him?

lol.these verses can be used to proof the ismaili immamate,bohri immamate, and zaydi immamate.

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lol.these verses can be used to proof the ismaili immamate,bohri immamate, and zaydi immamate.

One, don't forget verse 33:33, now we go into Sunnah, for that further discussion and we use logic to conclude which is the truth. Every single sect contains Hadith on 12 imams..

Edited by pureethics

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My personal opinion at least from my experiences and what I've seen from other converts such as myself is that they leave simply because it became a fad for them. They met a new group of people and wanted to fit in and they thought I can be just like these people and everything will be ok because something was missing in their life. So they convert and come to find out it wasn't what they expected get frustrated with all the rules and things they have to change to become Muslims and leave or they find out that the particular Muslim groups they associated with only put their "best foot forward" as a means of dawah then the true nature comes out and sometimes its negative ( I have personally witnessed that scenario) so the recent convert believes this is the means of becoming a good Muslim. Sometimes (I typically witness this with women) they meet some guy like him and realize the only way to get him is to become Muslim and it doesn't work out so they leave Islam over it having not really believed in the first place. There are other things ie not getting the support as new converts or bad experiences in their home countries its really hard to say what causes apostasy. All I know is that when someone makes the choice to leave its up to them and theres no compulsion in religion so their affair is with Allah swt and as long as they don't start attacking Islam as a result they should be left alone

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i was being kind becuz of the nature o this board when i said it made no sense. what i meant was i saw things in it that were flat out wrong no matter how u looked at iut.

look at the your interests it says it all though

you have to really open your mind to when looking at Islam and some things may take time and study for you to accept

but bro seriously take your dp down and put a real martyr up

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look at the your interests it says it all though

you have to really open your mind to when looking at Islam and some things may take time and study for you to accept

but bro seriously take your dp down and put a real martyr up

i did open my mind rather than follow blindly. thats how it became claer to me.

Sorry u dont share the same intersts as me but its ok as we r all different.

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Did you hear about a man who left Islam for Christianity then had a lot of extraordinary things happen to him? He tried coming back to Islam praying at the shrine in Karbala, he was picked up and thrown across the grounds. Guess that shows he wasn't sincere. Someone from my masjid told me about that.

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i did open my mind rather than follow blindly. thats how it became claer to me.

Sorry u dont share the same intersts as me but its ok as we r all different.

I dont want to pick on you but when you watch shahs on sunset and jersey shore these sort of things are going to take an impact on you without you realising it, they promote homosexuality,sex, money the usual BS,

I know being born in the west is difficult and it sometimes plays tricks with our minds i used to think how can homosexuals be punished they dont want to be like that but then i researched in the matter allot and things became clear i learned that the thoughts there having are from sheytan and acting upon the thoughts is a sin NOT the thought and how todays secular society is promoting these thoughts and even encouraging people to be gay.

Should peodaphilla be accepted if society says its ok? No way right

But weren't people saying the same things about homosexuals 40 years ago

Celebrities, the media, goverments are telling us x is right and y is wrong "you have to get with the times"

But you have to ask your self who are these people

this is WHY we have the Quran we need a rules, we need a guide thats going to stick till the end of the dunya

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I dont want to pick on you but when you watch shahs on sunset and jersey shore these sort of things are going to take an impact on you without you realising it, they promote homosexuality,sex, money the usual BS,

I know being born in the west is difficult and it sometimes plays tricks with our minds i used to think how can homosexuals be punished they dont want to be like that but then i researched in the matter allot and things became clear i learned that the thoughts there having are from sheytan and acting upon the thoughts is a sin NOT the thought and how todays secular society is promoting these thoughts and even encouraging people to be gay.

Should peodaphilla be accepted if society says its ok? No way right

But weren't people saying the same things about homosexuals 40 years ago

Celebrities, the media, goverments are telling us x is right and y is wrong "you have to get with the times"

But you have to ask your self who are these people

this is WHY we have the Quran we need a rules, we need a guide thats going to stick till the end of the dunya

watching these shows has nothing to do with what i found wrong with islamwhich would have been wrong regardles of how u look at it.my reasons for leaving had nothing to do with homosexuals, sex or mony.

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watching these shows has nothing to do with what i found wrong with islamwhich would have been wrong regardles of how u look at it.my reasons for leaving had nothing to do with homosexuals, sex or mony.

Bro just pm me the stuff about slavery, gender relations and Islamic law.

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watching these shows has nothing to do with what i found wrong with islamwhich would have been wrong regardles of how u look at it.my reasons for leaving had nothing to do with homosexuals, sex or mony.

what are your reasons then?

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Speaking of which, can anyone here actually prove that Islam is the true religion, and Prophet Muhammad is the true messenger, and that Quran is the true revelation, and all of the Imams are rightly guided spiritual teachers?

None of the above can be verified, just like the claims made by other religions.

If one really puts his/her bias aside, and thinks deeply, it gets pretty unconvincing. Think about it, a man used to goto a cave to think in a deserted town, then an angel shows up, and he is declared a divine agent. Problem is how do we know? No one witnessed this, obviously centuries later we can't verify it. The masses did not see this angel. It's basically one man's word centuries ago.

It becomes unfair for us to be intellectual honest when there is no way to verify this. And many cannot believe without surety.

It's unfair that religion doesn't provide confirmation yet expects our full commitment or we goto hell.

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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Think about it, a man used to goto a cave to think in a deserted town, then an angel shows up, and he is declared a divine agent.

Well, we can't even verify whether there really was a man who used to go to a cave to think in a deserted town, then an angel showed up etc. We can't know that either. And if we follow this line-of-thinking, NOTHING is verifiable. Think about it, how can we verify our poo-poo life is not some matrix-like simulation being fed to us by some naughty fugly aliens?

It's not about verifying everything, it's about verifying what's really relevant. It's about verifying what's important. It's about verifying what's beneficial. It's about verifying what's sufficient. I personally don't think we need to verify whether Prophet Muhammad really used to go to a cave in a deserted town, or that angel showed up etc etc etc, these aren't important, relevant, beneficial. Personally, I think all that truly deserved to be verified is Quran, whether is true and justified. And we have to take a look at teachings of Prophet Muhammad and rest of the rightly guided companions, and discern whether they are true and justified. If you ask me, that's what truly relevant, important and beneficial. These knowledge, I personally think, is sufficient to take a reliable course of action.

It's unfair that religion doesn't provide confirmation yet expects our full commitment or we goto hell.

Actually, as far as I can recall, I'm fairly sure Quran stated something like God doesn't punish people unless they are oppressors [Zaalims] or unless a messenger is sent to them who convince them of the truth [yet they persist on behaving sinfully]. Not sure of the exact chapter.

Edited by The Exalted One

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Off topic: but this is so funny because I was just last night thinking I wanted to ask if anyone had ever watched The Matrix. :D

Sorry, I just have to throw this in there too. :blush: It's something I just posted the other day in another thread.

"Muhammad says that oppression is worse than killing. Apart from the fact that this statement is ridiculous, he himself instructed his followers to be harsh and oppressive when dealing with the non-believers."

8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off.

9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

9:123 O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you,

http://www.harringto...s.com/Quran.htm

Can muslims really not see the ridiculousness, the hypocrisy, of Muhammad's words?

and what is the definition of non-believer?

Salaam.

Can you stop trolling? You go everywhere spreading your ignorent BS (like the moon god theory and quoting verses out of context) and attacking/insulting Islam and the Prophet and ignoring all our responses. Did you come to SC to learn about Islam or to try to evangalize us by spreading your filth?

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Uncle Bob. He's always been real nice to me.

Well, either him or I was born with them. Probably the latter. Thank you for asking.

Was uncle Bob the one who taught you the sun and planets revolve around the Earth, as your display picture suggests? Or did you reach this conclusion yourself?

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i already posted about them when it happened. ill see if i can find the posts.

Could you mention them again or PM me i dont want to criticise or anything i am actually curious

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Who gave it to Uncle Bob?

Was uncle Bob the one who taught you the sun and planets revolve around the Earth, as your display picture suggests? Or did you reach this conclusion yourself?

I'm guessing both of you didn't understand the import of my sentence, "Probably the latter."

Anyway, my profile picture is an image depicting a model that was commonly held to be true (including in Islam) several centuries ago, but has since been overturned due to a better system of obtaining knowledge.

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I'm guessing both of you didn't understand the import of my sentence, "Probably the latter."

Anyway, my profile picture is an image depicting a model that was commonly held to be true (including in Islam) several centuries ago, but has since been overturned due to a better system of obtaining knowledge.

You said, (including in Islam) but brought no evidence for that. So find me a single authentic hadith or verse from the Quran that will state that the planets and sun revolve around the earth. Just one.......That is an open challenge. Otherwise admit that the above inclusion of Islam into your hypothesis (i.e. your guess) is false.

Edited by Abu Hadi

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You said, (including in Islam) but brought no evidence for that. So find me a single authentic hadith or verse from the Quran that will state that the planets and sun revolve around the earth. Just one.......That is an open challenge. Otherwise admit that the above inclusion of Islam into your hypothesis (i.e. your guess) is false.

Actually, I was wrong in saying that the Islamic version of the world is similar to my profile picture. In fact it is even more primitive, since the Islamic belief is that the Earth is flat (and not spherical as my profile picture shows).

The evidence for this is overwhelming. Unfortunately for most of you non-Arabic speaking Shi'ites, almost none of it has been translated into English, so you're under the mistaken assumption that the Qur'an depicts Earth is a manner consistent with reality.

Let's start off with these verse first:

18:83 - They ask thee concerning Zul-qarnain. Say, "I will rehearse to you something of his story."

18:84 - Verily We established his power on earth, and We gave him the ways and the means to all ends.

18:85 - One (such) way he followed,

18:86 - Until, when he
reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water
: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."

18:87 - He said: "Whoever doth wrong, him shall we punish; then shall he be sent back to his Lord; and He will punish him with a punishment unheard-of (before).

18:88 - "But whoever believes, and works righteousness,- he shall have a goodly reward, and easy will be his task as We order it by our Command."

18:89 - Then followed he (another) way,

18:90 - Until, when he
came to the rising of the sun
, he found it rising on a people for whom We had provided no covering protection against the sun.

Now I am aware of the typical Muslim responses to these verses. They simply say that it only appeared to Dhul Qarnayn that the sun was setting in a spring of murky water, but there is no indication in the Qur'an that that was where the sun was actually setting.

That's an interesting response, but I'm not really concerned about how Muslims can twist the verses of the Qur'an at this point in time to avoid contradictions. If we want to find out what the Islamic perspective is on this matter, then why don't these Muslims being out the ahadith from the Prophet or the Imams that show that this is what the Qur'an actually meant?

Well, that's because all the ahadith about these verses say precisely the opposite! That the sun was indeed setting in a pool of dirty water, and that Dhul Qarnayn actually traveled to the ends of the (flat) Earth where the sun was setting and rising.

For example, read all the ahadith about these verses in Tafsir Noor at-Thaqalayn (which is a collection of all the hadith in Shi'a literature about the verses of the Qur'an): http://www.hodaalqur...ook.php?id=6374

219 - عن جابر عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام قال: قال أمير المؤمنين صلوات الله عليه: تغرب الشمس في عين حمئة في بحر دون المدينة التي مما يلي المغرب يعنى جابلقا

Rough translation: From Jabir, from Imam Baqir who said: Ameer al-Mumineen (Ali bin Abi Talib) said: The sun sets in a murky spring in a sea below the city of Jabulqa (Jabulqa is the name of the city).

Allamah Majlisi states that this hadith is authentic/reliable in Hayat al-Qulub volume 1 (section of Dhul Qarnayn).

في كتاب الاحتجاج للطبرسي (ره) عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام حديث طويل وفيه قال السائل: أخبرني عن الشمس أين تغيب؟ قال: إن بعض العلماء قال: إذا انحدرت أسفل القبة دار بها الفلك إلى بطن السماء صاعدة أبدا إلى أن تنحط إلى موضع مطلعها، يعنى انها تغيب في عين حمئة ثم تخرق الأرض راجعة إلى موضع مطلعها، فتحير تحت العرش حتى يؤذن لها بطلوع، ويسلب نورها كل يوم ويتجلل نورا احمر.

In al-Ihtijaj of Shaykh Tabrisiy: When asked "Inform us about the Sun, where does it go?", Imam Ja'far replied (relevant part): The Sun goes down in a murky spring, then it moves across the earth and returns from the place it rises.

عن الأصبغ بن نباتة عن أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام قال: سأل عن ذي القرنين؟ قال: كان عبدا صالحا واسمه عياش، اختاره الله وابتعثه إلى قرن من القرون الأولى في ناحية المغرب وذلك بعد طوفان نوح، فضربوه على قرن رأسه الأيمن فمات منها، ثم أحياه الله بعد مأة عام، ثم بعثه الله إلى قرن من القرون الأولى في ناحية المشرق، فكذبوه وضربوه ضربة على قرن رأسه الأيسر فمات منها، ثم أحياه الله بعد مأة عام وعوضه من الضربتين اللتين على رأسه قرنين في موضع الضربتين، أجوفين وجعل عين ملكه وآية نبوته في قرنيه.

ثم رفعه إلى السماء الدنيا فكشط له عن الأرض كلها جبالها وسهولها و فجاجها، حتى أبصر ما بين المشرق والمغرب، وآتاه الله من كل شئ يعرف به الحق والباطل، وأيده في قرنيه بكشف من السماء فيه ظلمات ورعد وبرق، ثم اهبط إلى الأرض وأوحى إليه: ان سر في ناحية غربي الأرض وشرقيها، فقد طويت لك البلاد، وذللت لك العباد فأرهبتهم منك فسار ذو القرنين إلى ناحية المغرب، فكان إذا مر بقرية زأر فيها كما يزأر الأسد المغضب فينبعث من قرنه ظلمات ورعد و برق وصواعق تهلك من ناواه وخالفه فلم يبلغ مغرب الشمس حتى دان له أهل المشرق والمغرب، قال: وذلك قول الله انا مكنا له في الأرض وآتيناه من كل شئ سببا فاتبع سببا حتى إذا بلغ مغرب الشمس وجدها تغرب في عين حمئة إلى قوله: اما من ظلم ولم يؤمن بربه فسوف يعذبه في الدنيا بعذاب الدنيا " ثم يرد إلى ربه " في مرجعه " فيعذبه عذابا نكرا " إلى قوله " وسنقول له من أمرنا يسرا ثم اتبع " ذو القرنين من الشمس " سببا ".

ثم قال أمير المؤمنين: ان ذا القرنين لما انتهى من الشمس إلى العين الحامية وجد الشمس تغرب فيها ومها سبعون ألف يجرونها بسلاسل الحديد والكلاليب يجرونها من قعر البحر في قطر الأرض الأيمن، كما تجرى السفينة على ظهر الماء فلما انتهى معها إلى مطلع الشمس سببا " وجدها تطلع على قوم " إلى قوله " بما لديه خيرا " فقال أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام: ان ذا القرنين ورد على قوم قد أحرقتهم الشمس وغيرت أجسادهم وألوانهم حتى صيرتهم كالظلمة ثم اتبع ذو القرنين سببا في ناحية الظلمة " حتى إذا بلغ بين السدين وجد من دونهما قوما لا يكادون يفقهون قولا * قالوا يا ذا القرنين ان يأجوج و مأجوج " خلف هذين الجبلين وهم يفسدون في الأرض،

Shaykh Muhammad bin Masud al-Ayyashi has reported in his tafseer that Asbagh bin Nubatah quotes from Ameer al-Mu’mineen ‘Ali when people asked him about Dhu’l-Qarnayn that, Dhu’l-Qarnayn was an exalted servant of Allah. His name was Ayaash. The Almighty selected him after the Deluge of Nuh and gave him suzerainty over the surrounding areas of Northwest Africa in the two centuries. The people hit him on the right and he was martyred by it. Then after a hundred years the Almighty raised him to life in the areas of East. This time the people hit him on the left side of his head and he was martyred. The Almighty raised him again after a hundred years and the lieu of the strokes he had suffered granted him a pair of outgrowths with a space between them. And gave him Kingship, Prophethood and miracle. Then summoned him to the first heaven. When the curtains were removed from his sight he beheld all that was in the earth, like the mountains, deserts and passes. Dhu’l-Qarnayn saw everything and the Almighty bestowed him complete knowledge and he could discriminate between right and wrong. Allah strengthened his horns with a part of a heavenly cloud that contained darkness, thunder and lightening. Then he was sent back to the earth and commanded through revelation, “Roam to the extreme west of the Earth and its east. We made easy for you the travel between cities. And We made the people subservient to your commands and instilled your fear in their hearts.”

Dhu’l-Qarnayn departed for the West end of the earth. As he traversed the lands he raised a loud scream like the roar of a lion. His horns emitted darkness, thunder and lightening and all those who were inimical to him and tried to oppose were instantly killed. In a single day he reached to the end of the earth before the Sun could reach the West. All the people of the East and the West became subservient to his command as mentioned by Allah:

“Surely We established him in the land and granted him means of access to everything.” (18:84)

When the sun reached west he saw that it was setting in a hot spring and 70000 angels are tugging at the Sun with fiery chains on the surface of the sea towards the lands of East, in the same manner as a boat is towed on the surface of water. He went to the rising place of the sun and it began to shine on the people of the East as described by the Almighty.

Ameer al-Mu’mineen ‘Ali says that he came across a people who were burnt by the Sun. Their bodies and skins were scorched by sunlight. From here he (Dhu’l-Qarnayn) proceeded towards darkness and desolation until he reached a place between two great walls as mentioned by the Holy Qur’an. The inhabitants of that area complained to Dhu’l-Qarnayn that Gog and Magog lived between the two mountains and had wreaked havoc in the land. When the crops and orchards are ready for cultivation they crossed the barriers and devoured everything.

The people offered Dhu’l-Qarnayn annual tithes if he could construct a barrier to prevent the mischief of the two giants. Dhu’l-Qarnayn said that he was in no need of their tithe, but they should provide him labor for constructing the barrier.

The hadith goes on for much longer, but this is sufficient. FYI, this translation is not mine, I've mostly just copied it from Hayat al-Qulub volume 1 (Dhul Qarnayn section), so it may be wrong on places. But just focus on the highlighted sections, which I checked and are essentially accurate.

في كتاب الخصال في سؤال بعض اليهود عليا عليه السلام عن الواحد إلى المأة، قال له اليهودي: فالشمس من أين تطلع؟ قال له: من بين قرني شيطان، قال: فأين تغرب؟ قال: في عين حامية.

In al-Khisaal of Shaykh Saduq. Certain Jews asked Ali bin abi Talib: Where does the Sun rise from? He (Ali bin abi Talib) replied, "From between the horns of Shaytaan." They (the Jews) asked, "And where does it set?" He (Ali bin abi Talib) replied, "In a murky spring."

في الكافي أبو علي الأشعري عن محمد بن عبد الجبار عن صفوان بن يحيى عن العلا بن رزين عن محمد بن مسلم عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام قال: يصلى على الجنازة في كل ساعة انها ليست بصلاة ركوع ولا سجود وانما تكره الصلاة عند طلوع الشمس وعند غروبها التي فيها الخشوع والركوع والسجود، لأنها تغرب بين قرني شيطان وتطلع بين قرني شيطان.

Summary: From al-Kafi by Shaykh Kulayni: Imam Baqir said the Sun sets between the horns of Shaytaan, and rises between the horns of Shaytaan.

A variation of the above hadith (with the same description of where the sun rises and sets) is also noted in Kamal ad-Deen by Shaykh Saduq:

في كتاب كمال الدين وتمام النعمة باسناده إلى محمد بن جعفر الأسدي رضي الله عنه قال: كان فيما يورد على من الشيخ أبى جعفر محمد بن عثمان العمرى قدس الله روحه في جواب مسائلي إلى صاحب الزمان: واما سألت عنه من الصلاة عند طلوع الشمس وعند غروبها، ولئن كان كما يقولون إن الشمس تطلع بين قرني الشيطان وتغيب بين قرني الشيطان، فلا شئ أفضل من الصلاة وأرغم أنف الشيطان.

There are other ahadith and verses, but these will do for now.

Now I know that you will instantly be thinking that these ahadith that weak. All of them!!! And (regardless of Allamah Majlisi's opinion on the first hadith I quoted) maybe you're right.

But that doesn't resolve your problem at all. Because I've presented you with several ahadith regarding the incident of Dhul Qarnayn from books by your most renowned early Shi'a scholars that flat-out contradict our understanding of the Earth and the solar system.

So why don't you give me a single hadith about the incident of Dhul Qarnayn where your Prophet or Imams explain the verse of the sun setting in a pool of murky water in a heliocentric light. That is my "open challenge" to you!

The fact that according to Islam the Earth was flat and that the sun revolved around it is incontestable! Not only are these hadith found in Shi'te literature, they are also found in Sunni literature, so I'm not saying that this wrong impression of the world is restricted to Shi'ites only. It is a systemic flaw of Islam.

You might try to push this issue under the rug by telling yourself that all these hadith are weak, so you can ignore them. But you ignore the fact that these hadith about the sun setting in a pool on the Earth have been around since the time of your Imams. But has there been a single hadith from your Imams trying to correct this issue??? No, there hasn't. And it's not like your Imams never corrected the false views of their followers. Time after time some follower came up to your Imams with a question, and the Imam would ask "What do the people think?", and after the follower would reply, the Imam would correct or clarify that view (for example in the case of how Hawwa was created; was it from the rib of Adam or not?).

But not once did your Imams correct this false impression about the sun setting in a pool on the Earth.

Tell me, if there had been a correct world-view (i.e., heliocentric instead of geocentric) promoted by any of your Imams, wouldn't at least one of the early scholars have noted this in any of their works??? Not necessarily as a hadith, but as a comment or clarification. So after quoting those ahadith about the sun setting in a pool of water, or rising between the horns of satan, the author of the book would have added a comment stating that "It is also known that the Imams have mentioned that the Sun's setting on the Earth is an illusion; rather it is the movement of the Earth which makes it appear so." (Or something along those lines.)

But, of course, there is none of that. There are only the hadith that give the wrong view of the world . . . and nothing else.

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Ya murtad!

The first hadith you have shown is actually a weak hadith. This is because it originates from Al-`Ayyashi's tafseer, and that is an unreliable source as a whole. (ref: http://www.asktheshe...-by-al-ayyashi/)

In this case, Al-Majlisi's grading doesn't even matter, as he has even said that the hadith of the Prophet (pbuh) being poisoned by his two wives (which also originates from Al-`Ayyashi's tafseer) is reliable.

Now, you must prove the authenticity of the rest of the hadith. The burden of proof is on you. Not that these hadiths bother me in the slightest. They wouldn't shake my faith in Islam at all, even if they were mutawattir.

Edited by Crescent

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Now, you must prove the authenticity of the rest of the hadith. The burden of proof is on you. Not that these hadiths bother me in the slightest. They wouldn't shake my faith in Islam at all, even if they were mutawattir.

He did prove the authenticity of the rest of the narrations. Are you a selective reader? He clearly proves that grand scholars such as Majlisi authenticated such narrations found in Shia books. Rather, the onus is on you to find a narration that interprets the setting of the sun in murky water as something illusory or allegorical, in sync with established modern science.

Systematic,

Make a thread about this issue. I find it worthy to be looked into further. It's rather disconcerting.

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He did prove the authenticity of the rest of the narrations. Are you a selective reader? He clearly proves that grand scholars such as Majlisi authenticated such narrations found in Shia books. Rather, the onus is on you to find a narration that interprets the setting of the sun in murky water as something illusory or allegorical, in sync with established modern science.

I'm pretty sure you're the selective reader. Firstly, he did not "prove" the authenticity of the hadiths, only the first one, and that was graded by Al-Majlisi, and I gave a perfect reason as to why Al-Majlisi's grading didn't hold any weight in this case.

I find it interesting that you are siding with a Kaffir while calling yourself a Muslim. You remind me of a previous (banned) member.

Edited by Crescent

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The Quran also talks about bringing land to life after it's death, that seal has been put on the hearing and covering has been put on the eyes of certain class of people etc, let me know when you guys gonna push fingers in your ears while rolling all over the floor screaming "Quran is against establish science earth is not a livin' being how can it live and dieee! There is no seal over the eyes of people Quran talks about error error pants on fiiiire!"

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You know what they say about a little knowledge being a dangerous thing...

I don't know if it is your case or not, but one thing I've noticed with a lot of born-Muslim apostates (or would be apostates if they had more courage/honesty) is that they often come from fairly uneducated family backgrounds. They themselves go to university, suddenly imagine themselves to be incredibly sophisticated and enlightened (mostly due to the comparison with their families or communities), and develop and incredible intellectual arrogance, reject wholesale everything they had been previously taught, and believe everything the secular world tells them. They never had much knowledge about Islam, and don't take much trouble to gain more knowledge, but simply use any plausible-sounding superficial arguments against to dismiss it.

Yet I've noticed educated analytical thinkers tend to distance themselves from religion.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/04/27/analytical-thinkers-less-_n_1460273.html

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=losing-your-religion-analytic-thinking-can-undermine-belief

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/apr/26/science/la-sci-religion-analytical-thinking-20120427

http://healthland.time.com/2012/04/27/losing-your-religion-analytic-thinking-weakens-religious-belief/

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/27/study-analytic-thinking-can-decrease-religious-belief/

http://health.usnews.com/health-news/news/articles/2012/04/26/analytical-thinkers-seem-to-be-less-religious-study-suggests

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Ya murtad!

The first hadith you have shown is actually a weak hadith. This is because it originates from Al-`Ayyashi's tafseer, and that is an unreliable source as a whole. (ref: http://www.asktheshe...-by-al-ayyashi/)

In this case, Al-Majlisi's grading doesn't even matter, as he has even said that the hadith of the Prophet (pbuh) being poisoned by his two wives (which also originates from Al-`Ayyashi's tafseer) is reliable.

Now, you must prove the authenticity of the rest of the hadith. The burden of proof is on you. Not that these hadiths bother me in the slightest. They wouldn't shake my faith in Islam at all, even if they were mutawattir.

So you weren't able to find a single hadith with the correct heliocentric world view???

As for the strength of the ahadith, like I said in my above post (which you apparently didn't read well), that doesn't matter. Tell me why can't you find any hadith in which the correct world view is stated? Or even a statement from your early scholars (not modern ones, of course), which attributed a heliocentric worldview to your Prophet or Imams?

They wouldn't shake my faith in Islam at all, even if they were mutawattir.

No surprise there, lol!

This is a fairly well studied response in the social sciences, you know. There have been lots of experiments carried out where people who have demonstrably false beliefs are presented powerful evidence to the contrary. Do you know what their reaction was? They dug in deeper! After showing these people the overwhelming evidence of the invalidity of their beliefs, the outcome was that in the end these people stated in the surveys that their beliefs had been strengthened by the experiment. You see, it's hard for people to give up their most cherished beliefs. Especially if they believe their going to Heaven depends on them not giving them up.

Here are some of the studies I was speaking of:

Nyhan, Reifler, When Corrections Fail: The persistence of political misperceptions. http://www.dartmouth...han-reifler.pdf

Peter H Ditto, James A Scepansky, Geoffrey D Munro, Anne Marie Apanovitch, Lisa K Lockhart, Motivated sensitivity to preference-inconsistent information, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology (1998), Volume: 75, Issue: 1, Publisher: American Psychological Association, Pages: 53-69

http://www.mendeley....-information-1/

Anderson, C. A., Lepper, M. R., & Ross, L. (1980). Perseverance of Social Theories: The Role of Explanation in the Persistence of Discredited Information. http://www.psycholog...-1984/80ALR.PDF

Batson, C. Daniel. "Rational processing or rationalization? The effect of disconfirming information on a stated religious belief." Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 32.1 (1975): 176-184.

Systematic,

Make a thread about this issue. I find it worthy to be looked into further. It's rather disconcerting.

Perhaps you should do it instead (and copy the material from here if you like). I already feel like I'm walking on thin ice, and the Admins are itching to ban me "for causing fitnah" on here.

Anyway, here are a couple more similar hadith on this issue:

From Tafsir al-Burhan: http://almahdyoon.or...an/borhan11.htm

علي بن إبراهيم ، قال: حدثنا جعفر بن أحمد ، عن عبد الله بن موسى ، عن الحسن بن علي بن أبي حمزة عن أبيه ، عن أبي بصير ، عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) قال: سألته عن قول الله (وَيَسْئَلُونَكَ عَنْ ذِي الْقَرْنَيْنِ قُلْ سَأَتْلُوا عَلَيْكُمْ مِنْهُ ذِكْراً). قال: «إن ذا القرنين بعثه الله إلى قومه ، فضربوه على قرنه الأيمن ، فأماته الله خمسمائة عام ، ثم بعثه إليهم بعد ذلك فضربوه على قرنه الأيسر ، فأماته الله خمسمائة عام ، ثم بعثه إليهم ، بعد ذلك ، فملكه مشارق الأرض ومغاربها ، من حيث تطلع الشمس إلى حيث تغرب ، فهو قوله: (حَتَّى إِذا بَلَغَ مَغْرِبَ الشَّمْسِ وَجَدَها تَغْرُبُ فِي عَيْنٍ حَمِئَةٍ) إلى قوله (عَذاباً نُكْراً)- قال- في النار ، فجعل ذو القرنين بينهم بابا من نحاس وحديد ، وزفت وقطران ، فحال بينهم وبين الخروج».

ثم قال: أبو عبد الله (عليه السلام): «ليس منهم رجل يموت حتى يولد له من صلبه ألف ولد ذكر- ثم قال- هم أكثر خلق خلقوا بعد الملائكة»

Imam Ja'far said (relevant part): Dhul Qarnayn's kingdom was the East of the Earth and its West, from where the Sun rises to where it sets.

And from Allamah Tabatabai's Tafsir al Mizan regarding verse 12 of Surah Talaq (Quran 65:12 -- Allah is He Who created seven Firmaments and of the earth a similar number. ):

The Allamah Quotes this hadith from Ali ar-Rida at the end:

و في تفسير القمي، حدثني أبي عن الحسين بن خالد عن أبي الحسن الرضا (عليه السلام) قال: قلت له: أخبرني عن قول الله عز و جل: «و السماء ذات الحبك» فقال: هي محبوكة إلى الأرض و شبك بين أصابعه فقلت: كيف تكون محبوكة إلى الأرض و الله يقول: رفع السماوات بغير عمد ترونها؟ فقال: سبحان الله أ ليس الله يقول: بغير عمد ترونها؟ قلت: بلى. قال: فثم عمد و لكن لا ترونها. قلت: فكيف ذلك جعلني الله فداك؟ قال: فبسط كفه اليسرى ثم وضع اليمنى عليها فقال: هذه أرض الدنيا و السماء الدنيا فوقها قبة، و الأرض الثانية فوق السماء الدنيا و السماء الثانية فوقها قبة، و الأرض الثالثة فوق السماء الثانية و السماء الثالثة فوقها قبة، و الأرض الرابعة فوق السماء الثالثة و السماء الرابعة فوقها قبة، و الأرض الخامسة فوق السماء الرابعة و السماء الخامسة فوقها قبة، و الأرض السادسة فوق السماء الخامسة و السماء السادسة فوقها قبة، و الأرض السابعة فوق السماء السادسة و السماء السابعة فوقها قبة و عرش الرحمن تبارك و تعالى فوق السماء السابعة و هو قول الله عز و جل: الذي خلق سبع سماوات - و من الأرض مثلهن يتنزل الأمر بينهن. فأما صاحب الأمر فهو رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) و الوصي بعد رسول الله قائم على وجه الأرض فإنما يتنزل الأمر إليه من فوق السماء من بين السماوات و الأرضين. قلت: فما تحتنا إلا أرض واحدة؟ فقال: ما تحتنا إلا أرض واحدة و إن الست لهن فوقنا:. أقول: و عن الطبرسي عن العياشي عن الحسين بن خالد عن الرضا (عليه السلام): مثله.

Translation of relevant part (explaining what the "seven earths" are): Imam Rida said: This is the earth of the the lowest world (dunya), and the sky/firmament above it is a DOME (qubbah), and the second earth is above the lowest sky, and the sky above that is a DOME, and the third earth is above the second sky, and the sky above that is a DOME . . . (goes on till the seventh sky)

Notice that the sky isn't being referred to as the space beyond the atmosphere around our planet. It is being referred to as a qubbah (dome). And if you've ever seen a dome (on a masjid, for example), you know that domes rest on FLAT surfaces, not on spheres. This hadith also makes it clear that the authentic Islamic belief is that the earth (in fact all seven of them) are FLAT, and the sky is a dome that rests above each flat earth.

Edited by Sytematic

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