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Ibn al-Hassan

Sevener Musawi Waqifism

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A question on this topic if anyone can answer please....

Do we have any documented proof/evidence that any of the sons of Imam Musa Kazim (as) ascribed to 'Musawi Waqifism'?

Yes, his son Ibrahim b. Musa was a Waqifi apparently.

One should also keep in mind that `Ali ar-Rida wasn't the only one who claimed to be an Imam after his father. In fact Ahmad b. Musa apparently also laid claim to this with his mother announcing him, and from there another sect (the Ahmadiyya, not related to the current one) diverged.

Anyway, I'm sure there's lots of questions people might have, but like I said I don't think this is really the proper time or place to be openly discussing them. I reiterate what I mentioned above.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

For those that do not have a familiar background on the Waqfism sect, this link below to an article will give a general information on it's origins. However, the author of this article is a twelver and therefore the article does have a bias towards Twelver Shia Islam.

http://www.imamreza....eza.php?id=5662

(wasalam)

Edited by Mujtaba_Iraqi

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(bismillah)

(salam)

For those that do not have a familiar background on the Waqfism sect, this link below to an article will give a general information on it's origins. However, the author of this article is a twelver and therefore the article does have a bias towards Twelver Shia Islam.

http://www.imamreza....eza.php?id=5662

(wasalam)

Highly polemical and simplistic.You can certainly argue that the Waqifah were misguided, but the accusation that it all began because of a financial scam is nonsense, IMHO. There were ahadeeth circulating from the time of al-Sadiq (as) that the 7th Imam (or, son of the 6th) would be al-Qa'im. Do you think it's a coincidence that the Isma'iliyya and Waqifah both believed the 7th Imam was al-Qa'im (although each believed in a different, final Imam) ?

Now, you can make an argument that the ahadeeth, although widespread, were incorrectly narrated or interpreted, but to simply accuse most of Imam al-Kazhim's (as) closest sahaaba of apostasizing over money is quite a stretch.

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Highly polemical and simplistic.You can certainly argue that the Waqifah were misguided, but the accusation that it all began because of a financial scam is nonsense, IMHO. There were ahadeeth circulating from the time of al-Sadiq (as) that the 7th Imam (or, son of the 6th) would be al-Qa'im. Do you think it's a coincidence that the Isma'iliyya and Waqifah both believed the 7th Imam was al-Qa'im (although each believed in a different, final Imam) ?

Now, you can make an argument that the ahadeeth, although widespread, were incorrectly narrated or interpreted, but to simply accuse most of Imam al-Kazhim's (as) closest sahaaba of apostatizing over money is quite a stretch.

(salam)

I agree with you to some extent. There are some flaws in this article that I went through but nevertheless it does give a quite solid argument refuting the entire sect. For example, just as you said, look at what it states here:

"This new "sectarian" trend did not result from a pure belief and a mere conviction; rather, it was prompted by materialistic and worldly desires which affected the thinking of its inventors and caused them to deviate from the Right Path."

I find that really hard to trust. Moreover, like you said, accusing most of the Sahabis of the Imam for betraying the religion over materialistic goods. Although, the author of this article did provide hadiths to back up this claim at the end of the article, I still question their authenticity There might be those narrations in our books that would accuse them of apostatizing over money but I doubt that these narrations are sound or have a strong sanad.

Regarding the narrations of Imam Alsadiq stating that sevenths Imam will be the Alqaim, I have limited knowledge on that and will have too look into it in further details.

(wasalam)

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Do you think it's a coincidence that the Isma'iliyya and Waqifah both believed the 7th Imam was al-Qa'im (although each believed in a different, final Imam) ?

What do you mean by Ismailliya? The fatimid? The current day followers of aga khan? the bohras? Their chain of Imams are longer then 7. At least a group of Ismailis are awaiting for the descendant of their 21st Imam. Another group is following a self style European western Imam. Proto-Isma'iliyya, probably doesn't exist anymore, are following Ismail son of Imam Jaffar and then his son. They are also referred to as waqifa in some writing (correctly or incorrectly).

Historically number seven used to be an occult number in some ancient philosophy/belief system. It's very hard to see the Islamic connection here.

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(bismillah)

A question on this topic if anyone can answer please....

Do we have any documented proof/evidence that any of the sons of Imam Musa Kazim (as) ascribed to 'Musawi Waqifism'?

Keep in mind that this isn't proof, the children of some Imams [as] called to their own Imamah. Anyway, I'm moving this to Thinker's Discourse to keep away stupid posts.

في امان الله

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What do you mean by Ismailliya? The fatimid? The current day followers of aga khan? the bohras? Their chain of Imams are longer then 7. At least a group of Ismailis are awaiting for the descendant of their 21st Imam. Another group is following a self style European western Imam. Proto-Isma'iliyya, probably doesn't exist anymore, are following Ismail son of Imam Jaffar and then his son. They are also referred to as waqifa in some writing (correctly or incorrectly).

Historically number seven used to be an occult number in some ancient philosophy/belief system. It's very hard to see the Islamic connection here.

I'm referring to the early Isma'iliyya which later became known as the Qaramita, who believed Muhammad b. Isma'il b. Ja'far was the 7th Imam and al-Qa'im al-Mahdi.

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(salam)

I agree with you to some extent. There are some flaws in this article that I went through but nevertheless it does give a quite solid argument refuting the entire sect. For example, just as you said, look at what it states here:

"This new "sectarian" trend did not result from a pure belief and a mere conviction; rather, it was prompted by materialistic and worldly desires which affected the thinking of its inventors and caused them to deviate from the Right Path."

I find that really hard to trust. Moreover, like you said, accusing most of the Sahabis of the Imam for betraying the religion over materialistic goods. Although, the author of this article did provide hadiths to back up this claim at the end of the article, I still question their authenticity There might be those narrations in our books that would accuse them of apostatizing over money but I doubt that these narrations are sound or have a strong sanad.

Regarding the narrations of Imam Alsadiq stating that sevenths Imam will be the Alqaim, I have limited knowledge on that and will have too look into it in further details.

(wasalam)

From Bihar al-Anwar Vol.24

باب 39 : انهم عليهم السلام السبع المثاني

- فس : أحمد بن إدريس عن أحمد بن محمد عن محمد بن سيار ( 1 ) عن سورة بن كليب عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام قال : نحن المثاني التي أعطاها الله نبينا ، ونحن وجه الله ، نتقلب في الارض بين أظهركم ، عرفنا من عرفنا ، وجهلنا من جهلنا ، من عرفنا فأمامه اليقين ، ومن جهلنا فأمامه السعير ( 2 ) .

- فر : جعفر بن أحمد باسناده ( 2 ) عن سماعة قال : سألت أبا عبدالله عليه السلام عن قول الله تعالى : ( ولقد آتيناك سبعا من المثاني والقرآن العظيم ) قال : فقال لي : نحن والله السبع المثاني ، ونحن وجه الله نزول بين أظهركم ، من عرفنا ( 3 ) ومن جهلنا فأمامه اليقين ( 1 ) .

3 - يد : العطار عن أبيه عن سهل عن ابن يزيد عن محمد بن سنان عن أبي سلام عن بعض أصحابنا ( 2 ) عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام قال : نحن المثاني التي أعطاها الله نبينا صلى الله عليه وآله ، ونحن وجه الله نتقلب في الارض بين أظهركم ، عرفنا من عرفنا ، ومن جهلنا فأمامه اليقين ( 3 ) .

ير : أحمد بن محمد عن الحسين بن سعيد عن علي بن حديد عن علي بن أبي المغيرة عن أبي سلام عن سورة بن كليب عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام مثله ( 4 ) .

شى : عن سورة مثله ( 5 ) .

قال الصدوق رحمه الله : معنى قوله : ( نحن المثاني ) أي نحن الذين قرننا النبي صلى الله عليه وآله إلى القرآن ، وأوصى بالتمسك بالقرآن وبنا وأخبر امته أن لا نفترق حتى نرد عليه حوضه ( 6 ) .

4 - ير : محمد بن الحسين عن موسى بن سعدان عن عبدالله بن القاسم عن هارون ابن خارجة قال : قال لي أبوالحسن عليه السلام : نحن المثاني التى اوتيها رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله ، ونحن وجه الله نتقلب بين أظهركم ، فمن عرفنا ومن لم يعرفنا فأمامه اليقين ( 7 ) .

5 - ير : أحمد بن الحسن ( 8 ) عن الحسين بن سعيد عن ابن سنان عن أبي سلام عن بعضه أصحابه ( 1 ) عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام قال : نحن المثاني التي أعطى الله نبينا ونحن وجه الله نتقلب في الارض بين أظهركم ( 2 ) .

6 - شى : عن يونس بن عبدالرحمان رفعه ( 3 ) قال : سألت أبا عبدالله عليه السلام عن قول الله : ( ولقد آتيناك سبعا من المثاني والقرآن العظيم ) قال : إن ظاهرها الحمد ، وباطنها ولد الولد ، والسابع منها القائم عليه السلام ( 4 ) .

7 - قال حسان ( 5 ) : سألت أبا جعفر عليه السلام عن قول الله : ( ولقد آتيناك سبعا من المثاني والقرآن العظيم ) قال : ليس هكذا تنزيلها ( 6 ) إنما هي : ( ولقد آتيناك سبع مثاني ( 7 ) ) نحن هم ( والقرآن العظيم ) ولد الولد ( 8 ) .

8 - شى : عن القاسم بن عروة عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام في قول الله : ( ولقد آتيناك سبعا من المثاني والقرآن العظيم ) قال : سبعة أئمة والقائم ( 9 ) .

9 - شى : سماعة قال : قال أبوالحسن عليه السلام : ( ولقد آتيناك سبعا من المثانى والقرآن العظيم ) قال : لم يعط الانبياء إلا محمد صلى الله عليه وآله وهم السبعة الائمة الذين يدور عليهم الفلك ، والقرآن العظيم محمد صلى الله عليه وآله ( 10 ) .

- فر : علي بن يزداد القمي باسناده ( 1 ) عن حسان العامري قال : سألت أباجعفر عليه السلام عن قول الله : ( ولقد آتيناك سبعا من المثاني ) قال : ليس هكذا تنزيلها ، إنما هي : ( ولقد آتيناك سبع مثاني ( 2 ) ) نحن هم ولد الولد ( والقرآن العظيم ) علي بن أبي طالب عليه السلام ( 3 ).

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Historically nu The number seven used to be an occult number in some ancient philosophy/belief system. It's very hard to see the Islamic connection here.

I hope you aren't serious. There are a number ('scuse the pun) of allusions to the number 7 in Islam, such as the 7 oft-repeated verses of the Qur'an, the seven heavens and the 7 earths etc. It's no more un-Islamic than the number 12. The numbers 7 and 12 are found repeatedly in the Old and New Testaments as well.

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بسم الله و هو الحکیم

السلام علیکم

Without naming names or undermining figures, purely as an exercise towards truth, can the Imami individuals who have come across these arguments for Waqifism, explain why this does not hold.

I personally doubt Imamis, but an erratic few if any, would suddenly break allegiance from Imam al-Rida, Imam al-Jawad, Imam al-Hadi, Imam al-'Askari and Imam al-Qaim al-Mahdi, on them and our Prophet innumerable blessings and peace from God, and join a sect which has been dead for 12 centuries simply on the influence of some random individual on SC who read some hadith which has been studied and dismissed by all the Mutiqaddimeen and Mutiakhireen scholars of Ahlulbayt. Nobody was inclined by the ahadith to resurrect a dead sect.

و علیکم السلام

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بسم الله و هو الحکیم

السلام علیکم

Without naming names or undermining figures, purely as an exercise towards truth, can the Imami individuals who have come across these arguments for Waqifism, explain why this does not hold.

I personally doubt Imamis, but an erratic few if any, would suddenly break allegiance from Imam al-Rida, Imam al-Jawad, Imam al-Hadi, Imam al-'Askari and Imam al-Qaim al-Mahdi, on them and our Prophet innumerable blessings and peace from God, and join a sect which has been dead for 12 centuries simply on the influence of some random individual on SC who read some hadith which has been studied and dismissed by all the Mutiqaddimeen and Mutiakhireen scholars of Ahlulbayt. Nobody was inclined by the ahadith to resurrect a dead sect.

و علیکم السلام

Akhee, I don't know of anyone who has joined any other sect. The individual in question has raised some interesting questions that some of us would like answered, is all. Simply calling him a deviant or dismissing the questions out of hand simply strengthens his arguments.

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بسم الله و هو الحکیم

السلام علیکم

Macisaac,

This is not for debate, and perhaps the mods can adamantly control this thread. But wouldn't it be enlightening if, perhaps, you clarified this one question publicly, which is probably the greatest obstacle to anyone appreciating your position:

Would you please explain why the argument that the sect has been extinct for centuries and has been dismissed by all the great Shi'a scholars who have studied these issues does not, ultimately, decide the matter?

I think this would at least turn what I imagine are incredulous stares to more thoughtful perspectives.

Thank you

و علیکم السلام

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I'm referring to the early Isma'iliyya which later became known as the Qaramita, who believed Muhammad b. Isma'il b. Ja'far was the 7th Imam and al-Qa'im al-Mahdi.

Again, what is this connection you are now seeing between Qaramite and Ismailiyya?

BTW, I don't find anything to like about the Qaramita. They were a bunch of murderers with some sort of twisted religious belief.

http://researchintoo.../label/Qaramite

I hope you aren't serious. There are a number ('scuse the pun) of allusions to the number 7 in Islam, such as the 7 oft-repeated verses of the Qur'an, the seven heavens and the 7 earths etc. It's no more un-Islamic than the number 12. The numbers 7 and 12 are found repeatedly in the Old and New Testaments as well.

The Quran is mentioning a fact. If someone says there are seven days in a week, that's a fact. We are not trying to look deeper into the meaning of the number.

The ancient egyptian philosophical cult had a deeper interpretation for number a lot of numbers (1to 10). The number seven was not just a number but it also represent some weird and crazy ideas about your soul.

Edited by Dar'ul_Islam

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(bismillah)

I don't think it is a stretch, and it can still be that these wakeels become greedy being aware of the circulating ideas of 7 Imams and furthered their claims by using it. The more pressing issue would have been that the majority, if not totality, of the narrations about Waqf at al-Kazhim [as] come from al-Sadiq [as], and next to no body immediately affirmed the Imamah of al-Kazhim [as] after his father's death. The majority of people went off to other sons or did waqf themselves (Nawusiyya). If Waqf at al-Kazhim [as] was the original position of the Imami Rawafidh and it was clearly laid down by his father [as], why didn't everyone know to flock to al-Kazhim [as] afterwards? It should have been the easiest and clearest thing for them ifhis Mahdawiyya and Ghayba have already been clarified by al-Sadiq [as].

The Waqifa is a dead sect that has been gone for about 1200 years. There are really bad philosophical implications for the "truth" to be absolutely gone from any person (aside form the supposed al-Kazhim [as] in ghayba) for that long absolutely. It's not even like there was a small waqifa family who has been tucked away in a corner in Iraq or something for that long, they have not existed - period. Refer to Kadhim's post above.

في امان الله

Whichever Mod is approving posts in this thread, please be more discriminating or please stop.

What i'm suggesting is that there were akhbaar circulating about the 7th Imam being al-Qa'im. Most, I suspect, did not specify the identity of the 7th Imam, but just his mahdawiyyah. I'm also suggesting that, even if the wukala' of al-Kazhim (as) were misguided in their Waqifi beliefs, those beliefs were most probably genuinely held, and simply dismissing it as the product of a financial scam is simplistic and, ultimately, incorrect.

Edited by Abdul Qaim

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Again, what is this connection you are now seeing between Qaramite and Ismailiyya?

BTW, I don't find anything to like about the Qaramita. They were a bunch of murderers with some sort of twisted religious belief.

http://researchintoo.../label/Qaramite

This getting really boring. If you think modern researchers don't categorise the Qaramita as an Isma'ili sect, then I'm not sure what I can say. I am referring to the Isma'iliyya Mubarakiyya who upheld the Imamate of Isma'il b. Ja'far, and his son Muhammad b. Isma'il.

They became the main Isma'ili sect after the Isma'iliyya al-Khalisa (as Nawbakhti refers to them), who believed in the ghayba of Isma'il b. Ja'far died off. They later (more than a century later) became known by some as the Qaramita, particularly after 'Abdullah al-Mahdi proclaimed his imamate (which they of course denied). The term Qaramita has tended to be used generically to denote those Isma'ilis who refused to accept the Fatimid Imams and remained true to the belief in Muhammad b. Isma'il being al-Qa'im al-Mahdi in occultation.

Anyway, this is sidetracking the main purpose of the thread.

The Quran is mentioning a fact. If someone says there are seven days in a week, that's a fact. We are not trying to look deeper into the meaning of the number.

The ancient egyptian philosophical cult had a deeper interpretation for number a lot of numbers (1to 10). The number seven was not just a number but it also represent some weird and crazy ideas about your soul.

You were the first to mention that you didn't see any particular Islamic significance to the number 7. I am pointing out to you that it is no more Islamically insignificant than the number 12.

(bismillah)

I had thought this at one point, too. Until I found that the heads of the Waqifa are found admitting to and narrating the nass of al-Rida [as] themselves.

For example:

3 - نَصٌّ آخَرُ: حَدَّثَنا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الحَسَن بْنِ أَحْمَدِ بْنِ الوَلِيد رَضِىَ اللهُ عَنْهُ قالَ: حَدَّثَنا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الحَسَن الصَفَّار، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى، عَنِ الحَسَن بْنِ مَحْبُوب؛ وَعُثْمانَ بْنِ عِيسَى، عَنْ [ال] حُسَيْنِ بْنِ نُعَيْم الصَّحَّاف قالَ: كُنْتُ أَنَا وَهِشامُ بْنُ الحَكَمِ وَعَلِىُّ بْنُ يَقْطِينٍ بِبَغْدادَ فَقالَ عَلِىُّ بْنُ يَقْطِينٍ: كُنْتُ عِنْدَ العَبْدِ الصَّالِح مُوسَى بْنِ جَعْفَرعَلَيْهِمَا السَّلاَمُ [جالِساً] فَدَخَلَ عَلَيْهِ ابْنُهُ الرِّضا عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ فَقالَ: يا عَلِيُّ هذا سَيِّد وُلْدِي وَقَدْ نَحَلْتُهُ كُنْيَتِي، فَضَرَبَ هِشامٌ بِراحَتِهِ جَبْهَتَهُ ! ثُمَّ قالَ: وَيْحَكَ كَيْفَ قُلْتَ؟! فقالَ عَلِىُّ بْنُ يَقْطِينٍ: سَمِعْتُ وَاللَّه مِنْهُ [كَما قُلتُ لَكَ] فَقالَ هِشامٌ: أَخْبَرَكَ وَاللَّهِ أَنَّ الأَمْرَ فِيهِ مِنْ بَعْدِهِ.

19 - نَصُّ آخَرُ: حَدَّثَنا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ مُوسَى بْنِ المُتَوَكِّل‏ رَضِىَ اللهُ عَنْهُ قالَ: حَدَّثَنا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى العَطَّارُ، عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى، عَنِ الحَسَن بْنِ عَلِىٍّ الخَزَّارِ قالَ: خَرَجْنا إِلى مَكَّةَ وَمَعَنا عَلِىُّ بْنُ أَبي حَمْزَةَ وَمَعَهُ مالٌ وَمَتاعٌ، فَقُلْنا: ما هذا؟ قالَ: هذا لِلْعَبْدِ الصَّالِح‏ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ أَمَرَنِي أَنْ أَحْمِلَهُ إِلى عَلِيِّ ابْنِهِ‏ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ وَقَدْ أَوْصى‏ إِلَيْهِ.

25 - نَصُّ آخَرُ: حَدَّثَنا أَبي‏ رَضِىَ اللهُ عَنْهُ قالَ: حَدَّثَنا سَعْدُ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى بْنِ عُبَيْدٍ، عَنْ زِيادِ بْنِ مَرْوان القَنْدِيِّ قالَ: دَخَلْتُ عَلَى أَبي إِبْراهيمَ‏ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ وَعنْدَهُ عَلِيٌّ ابْنُهُ، فَقالَ لي‏: يا زِيادُ هذا كِتابُهُ كِتابي، وَكَلامُهُ كَلامِي، وَرَسُولُهُ رَسُولِي، وَما قالَ فَالْقَوْلُ قَوْلُهُ.

And they are mu`tabar. As a side note, I believe Uthman b. Isa repented and returned from his waqf before death, but that is another discussion. And if the response to all of this is being a back projection by Twelvers to nullify the validity of their opponents, then there is no reason to discuss anything....This is aside from the fact that a waqifi, rather the waqifi, only has twelver books at his disposal to use.

في امان الله

All very valid points, as were Kadhim's. I'm not here to promote the pro-Waqifi position. I'm simply saying that the issue is not as clear-cut as some here would posit. Mac has raised some valid concerns, and responding to them constructively and logically is not a danger to anyone's imaan. Knowing that one's beliefs can withstand the sort of scrutiny that we are referring to can only bring yaqeen.

I do think, however, that this is probably not the correct forum for this discussion, as some of us who are not as knowledgeable as members such as yourself, may potentially lose their faith if certain aspects of the argument were rigorously debated.

Edited by Dar'ul_Islam

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Salam dear mod

This is not meant for this thread. But I would appreciate this account "equity" being banned/unregistered to be reopened upon request.

Thank you

I could not PM for some reason

equity

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(salam)

Besides the one major point that has been repeated (re: why would Allah (swt) let the Truth literally go extinct for centuries), the other implication of this is that given that the current world Waqifi population is perhaps at 1, by being the only Waqifi on the planet, one is essentially implying that they were chosen by God to be the reviver of this sect after more than a thousand years; that God chose them to unravel this truth after about a few centuries later. Now unless you truly believe that God has chosen you out of the hundreds of other pious men and women that exist and have existed in history to see this light, then there isn't much I can say there. However, in the past, there have been religions who have diverted totally off the path (Jews, Christians etc), however there have always been at least a few handful of individuals from those religions who had remained on the truth (for example, the Jews and Christians who knew of the Prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) coming and/or were awaiting him); however there was never a moment where these individuals went extinct.

Wassalam

So, I don't know much about Waqifis but when you guys says they were extinct, you mean there was literally not even one person who followed the doctrine? Wasn't Mac influenced by some Waqifi who made convincing arguements to actually become one?

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(salam)

Wasn't Mac influenced by some Waqifi who made convincing arguements to actually become one?

The individual who he was "influenced" by (though I don't believe he was "influenced" by him, rather perhaps merely intrigued) himself converted out of Waqifism. Even if he didn't, then that still puts the population at 1, at one point in time (now you have 2, big deal - what will happen if they are unable to convince anyone else and then they both pass away?). Can anyone find a Waqifi community around the world any where - what is the need of living in Taqiyyah? Both individuals who turned to "Waqifism" seem to have been unstable with their faiths - one has gone through various different stages of belief, and the one example that was cited for a Waqifi on Al-mehdyoon.org, was then later seen on another thread with different views.

Wassalam

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Honestly, I don't think there is any need to not share notes on findings about the Waqifi if only for the sake of the youth or the simple minded who might deviate, apostate or convert, because that has already been happening for various reasons. I doubt there is any stone left unturned upon this planet by those who seek the truth and therefore I think its perfectly safe in that regard. Even this Thinker's forum has seen most of everything imo. But if people insist on not wanting to share or illuminate their findings even then it will be quite understandable to some others.

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