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Ibn al-Hassan

Sevener Musawi Waqifism

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^In addition to that, why the concern in "dragging anyone down" with you if in reality you're wrong? Your death would still be that of jahilliya, kufr, nifaq, etc. Furthermore, if you're hesitant to openly discuss this due to the aforementioned reason, it shows a lack of certainty on your behalf, so why did you so swiftly convert to another religion, which as mentioned multiple times on this thread, has been extinct for centuries? Surely, with uncertainty, one would opt for precaution and adopt ithna ashari beliefs, with the hope that even if the waqifi view was correct, Allah (swt) would have mercy on them for thinking a school which has been dead for over a millenium is less likely to be the rope of guidance.

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.....In approaching this matter I divide its study into two major components. One is analyzing the basic claims of the Ithna `Ashariyya Imamiyya, its truthfulness and the validity of its fundamental distinguishing claims through such means as historical analysis and critique. .........

The problem though in open discussion on these matters, especially of the first component, is the very real danger this presents. Frankly, I feel that for many of the people here were they to learn more of the first part they'd probably risk just leaving Islam altogether.

I'm kind of intrigued by this statement. So by researching, a person is risking leaving God's religion altogehter? What possibly could make them do that? Would they stop believing there is a creator? And that Muhammad saww is the final Prophet etc etc? It's a bit of an extreme thing to say in my opinion.

However, if that was to happen then whoever the person is that leaves Islam altogether would have to have very weak imaan. All in my opinion of course!

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3. Step in, look around vigorously, but never resolve the confusion. You've destroyed your confidence with where you were originally, but the alternative doesn't satisfy either. Now you don't have anything you can really trust. Every step you take the ground is softer underneath than it was before. Arguably, from a philosophical point of view, the Truth is key, and it is a Good to become aware that a core belief was actually delusion. In practical reality, psychologically, most people can't handle this. Of those who don't go in direction 1 above, truth is most will end up at 3. Endpoint 3 a weak individual can easily end up in apostasy or even atheism. It's serious business.

Or Agnosticism, and I wouldn't just consider such a person a weak individual. Any truly rational person is bound to have serious doubts about organized religion, mac is probably just dealing with specifics anyway. If he pursues his line of thinking further, he might very well lead down to that path. I don't know him personally, but just reading some of his posts and talking to him I got a sense that he was capable of some rational independent thought, so I felt that he must have had some lingering doubts about a few things here and there, he just wasn't very public. I think a lot of people who seek the truth in a sincere fashion do accept that these things can be for them fraught with uncertainties, and they are absolutely comfortable with this eventually. Very committed, moral, principled and courageous men have accepted this and moved on to live extremely productive and meaningful lives. I doubt a just god would punish someone who seeks the truth with sincerity, even if it leads him outside the fold, how can you really blame him?

I've got a feeling mac won't go all the way though, so I wouldn't be too concerned.

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The number 12 is backed by both Sunni and Shia ahadith properly. The number 7 is not. Come on. ^^^

That argument isn't quite as strong as it might appear.

The counter-argument would go something like this: Firstly, Sunnis sources are irrelevant since they are full of fabrications. Secondly, the number 12 doesn't appear to have figured very prominently in Shia circles until the time of Imam Mahdi (as). Before that, it's not like you had people saying "so-and-so can't be the Qa'im, because there haven't been 12 Imams yet." Obviously, had it been widely expected that there would be 12 Imams, then Waqifism would never have gotten off the ground in the first place. Now, a sceptic could argue that Shias only started to pay attention to the fact that this number 12 was contained in Sunni sources after it became necessary to back up the fact that there would only be 12 Imams (or that it was necessary for there to be 12 Imams, as some kind of 'logical proof' for the existence of the twelth Imam). So if one were to view the idea of twelve Imams as being an import from Sunnism, then the fact that it appears in both sources is hardly very important.

But then, macisaac himself once posted ahadith on the number 12 that apparently predate the occultation:

Also, this number twelve must have come from somewhere, and it is narrated a surprising amount of times in Sunni sources, considering the fact that it has absolutely no doctrinal relevance to them (which personally makes me doubt that it is fabricated). Overall, it would seem a bit coincidental that everything worked out this way.

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^ The argument was not intended to be a standalone argument and yet I don't see you being able to weaken it either. Proof for a couple of your claims would have been nice, for example that the number 12 is a later invention, but I can understand that it is difficult to produce. As for Sunni sources, remember that the Sunni and their material ultimately come from us. Today they don't pay any heed to a lot of things including the Quranic commandments and not just the hadith of 12 khulafa.

Secondly, you mention the people. The masses of human beings forget and forgetfulness is our racial trait. The masses of people can not be followed and this is also in the Quran. So they remembered it later and forgot it in time of need so what. People are like that. We don't take our religion from what people do or say. That is for non-serious and very weak believers who seek excuses by hiding behind whatever people are doing. We search from evidences. The role of the masses of people in Shia history is shameful. Abandoning Imams, then running to them or their children in time of need or when it would profit them. Like when they went to ibn Hanfiya after Karbala. When they went to Zayd ibn Ali. When the friends of Ismail ibn Jafar went to him and pledged their allegiances to him. Ismailis and their 33 Imams are called deviants for a reason.

I know that discussion on the number of Imams won't be as convincing or decisive in this. But there are a lot of issues yet to be seen and come from proper reliable sources. The most controversial yet to be presented is by your team and that would be the reason of your distrust in the Imamate of Imam Raza (as). And why you think the Imamate stopped at Imam Musa (as). Now that is going to mean the end of this matter so we'll have to encourage you guys to bring it forth. I have a hunch why there is great hesitance in bringing it forth but if you are as you claim to be caring for others then you should do it.^^

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That argument isn't quite as strong as it might appear.

on the contrary. The hadith about 12 Imam (as) is moutawatir (lafdy wa kalamy).

Secondly, the number 12 doesn't appear to have figured very prominently in Shia circles until the time of Imam Mahdi (as)

can you prove it ?

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I know that discussion on the number of Imams won't be as convincing or decisive in this. But there are a lot of issues yet to be seen and come from proper reliable sources. The most controversial yet to be presented is by your team and that would be the reason of your distrust in the Imamate of Imam Raza (as). And why you think the Imamate stopped at Imam Musa (as). Now that is going to mean the end of this matter so we'll have to encourage you guys to bring it forth. I have a hunch why there is great hesitance in bringing it forth but if you are as you claim to be caring for others then you should do it.^^

'My team'? I'm not a Waqifi. I've discussed the issues with macisaac, and haven't been convinced. However, that doesn't mean I don't recognise that the case for the ithna ashari position isn't as incontravertible as some would imagine. On balance, it's the one I favour, but I don't think anyone who doesn't buy into it is a complete idiot, or is missing the obvious. There are a lot of unsettling episodes in the history of Shi'ism, which can easily lead to doubts, and perhaps a search for a more easily defensible position.

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^ Thats what you think and its understandable. However I or any other true twelver Shia here on SC never felt that we need a more defensible position or if there is one. Still we welcome the evidence which is taking its time and therefore it will hopefully be well worth it. You'll see when all the cards are put on the table.

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^ Why would anyone want to attack macisaac rather people are curious to learn more from him. Sevenerism in itself is a concept that attacks and disrespects the blessed Imams (as) starting with Imam Reza (as) and I believe a commendation is in order for people who have been exercising discipline and patience instead. Secondly, this Thinker's forum is moderated so there can be no insults or disrespect, and the thread was moved here in order to provide that level of comfort and respectfulness necessary for a two way communication or a discussion. One has to appreciate the fact that the Prophets and Messengers of truth never had such a thing and they had to bear with even physical punishments and injuries as they delivered the truth to people by force. However here the people are calmly seeking and expecting illumination from macisaac. Indeed this is a 12'er site but if that is somehow still a problem then we could move to a 7'er site in order to learn more, because our sole business is with Sevenerism and I don't see why it shouldn't be, for any real Shia or searcher of truth.

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This is not a criticism of mac, but to all his fanboys - I bet if it was ANYONE other than mac who had changed their beliefs, you would not be as sympathetic; you would be attacking that person.

There is no point in mindelessly going on the attack. Obviously, from an Twelver persepective, he has become seriously misguided. But attacking a person (whether they have become a Waqifi, Sunni, Christian, atheist, or anything else) is no way to bring them back. You have to engage with their arguments, and be open minded enough to be at least theoretically open to what they are saying. Otherwise, if you are just completely closed minded and dogmatic about it, they won't listen to you. Personally, I've never 'attacked' anyone for their beliefs or questions, until they became abusive or disrespectful.

Anyway, since macisaac isn't publicly disclosing what his arguments for Waqifism and against Ithna Asharism are, there isn't much to attack right now.

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Aslamalaykum,

^^^^^^^ Let them see, we've got nothing to hide.

Firstly brother Macisaac has not stopped his research, so let us make dua, that Allah swt guides Him to the straight path. Majority of us know how intelligent and sharp He is, so inshaaAllah it won't take Him long to see the truth, as long as he is sincere.

@Coco

As Macisaac doesn't want to discuss further it is no use to carry on the discussion even though it would have been very beneficial to see all His arguments for and against.

Allah swt says

Truth stands out clear from Error (Qur'an 2:256)

So I believe in every era till the day of judgement the truth has always been clear, people have made it confusing and not the religion itself. As being a twelver shia, to me this path to me is more clearer than the sun.

Maybe there is a turning point of this thread that we can really benefit, you've said...........

There are some serious questions I have on the Twelver construct, long before MacIsaac publicly revealed his Waqifi journey.

since I don't want to cast doubt into people hearts or the enemies are using these as a weapon against us. I don't know if anyone else has the same doubt, but if there's any, probably we can start a discussion about this.

Please do post your /questionsconcerns, maybe one of us might have the answers.

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That's a fair enough question, so I'll attempt to answer why.

In approaching this matter I divide its study into two major components. One is analyzing the basic claims of the Ithna `Ashariyya Imamiyya, its truthfulness and the validity of its fundamental distinguishing claims through such means as historical analysis and critique. The other component is in analyzing (though in this case part of it is also reconstructing) the claims of the Waqifa, though here the concern is less with any one individual or individuals of a sect, and more with the core truths of the doctrines themselves. Both of these components have been and are essential to my study and you can't really understand where I am now, and why I am there, with only one of them being discussed.

The problem though in open discussion on these matters, especially of the first component, is the very real danger this presents. Frankly, I feel that for many of the people here were they to learn more of the first part they'd probably risk just leaving Islam altogether. Most people of a religious persuasion tend to live in a comfortable world where the correctness of their own religion seems very evident and clear to them. Black is black and white is white, and it all seems very tidy. The reality though is far from this, and Shiism is no exception. Some people can handle this sort of thing, it inspires them to want to look deeper, but for others it spells nothing but a major crisis of faith for them and often the result is they simply give up. I don't want that to happen to folks here. Regardless of whatever I feel about the strength or weakness of Twelver Shiism's claims, I find it much better you stay on that rather than fall into a pit of doubt you'd not be able to exit from. Honestly sometimes I almost envy those who have this simplistic understanding of things, their lives must be much less complicated. But, such is not my lot, and I have to give thanks for God has given me, but pray that I be found fit to handle it.

The danger of open discussion of the second part is that I am only all too keenly aware of my own personal fallibility. That is, I could very be wrong, and if I'm wrong I don't want to be dragging anyone down with me especially when it comes to matters of the highest importance that can entirely effect one's hereafter. If someone of their own study and reasoned consideration would end up agree with where I find myself, fine and well, but I don't want someone too "easily" converting to it either. I'm aware of the pedestal which some here have put me on, one I can assure you I am not deserving of, and I don't want anyone to be following this just because it's from me and they figure I must know what I'm talking about. My research into this matter, though it has been intense and opening all sorts of doors to understanding that for a while have seemed closed, is still relatively fresh and new. There's still much to learn and discover.

For folks who think I've simply approached this in some mechanical 1+1 fashion by looking at a few hadiths, checking their isnads, and there you go I'm a Waqifi, or that this is something that has happened overnight and I've gone through some sudden change that's a complete 180 from where I was just some weeks ago, I can assure you this has not been the case. The discovery and unfolding of what is becoming apparent to be of the Waqifi beliefs a lot of this is fresh, but the elements of the first part of it, the critical analysis of Twelverisms claims, are not entirely new and have been present with me for quite some time. By my nature I am a critical and analytical person when it comes to religion claims, and I approach religion from a fairly academic and intellectual angle. All that said, there is also that factor from within the heart that is not limited to rational analysis, but rather is a matter of faith and prayer for God's guidance. I can't convey that to you, but it's been and is a large part of all this. I'm not just trying to find what makes sense to the mind (though that is very important), but for what feeds the soul in the light of truth and guidance.

There's really a lot more that could be said, but hopefully this gives at least some idea of why I'm trying to be careful about too openly disclosing this. Were it up to me this thread would not have been created, but it's happened now and we deal with the realities that be.

I will repeat my offer for private discussion for those who actually _want_ to learn, but I have no interest in debate.

Ok I'm a shia but have not yet decided whether to be a Twelver or a Zaidi or....... whatever. I only examined the evidence as far as the original Ahl ul Bayt meaning Fatima, Ali, Hassan and Hussein (Peace Be Upon Them All), Ghadir Khum and Karbala. I have not yet weighed out, in full, the evidence presented by various groups of Shia. So as far as which is correct (as far as I know it may be the Jarudiyyah) so far I can only say Allah(SWT) knows best.

I went to that site though and it's not easy to navigate as far as discerning what the Waqifi argument is and why. So perhaps I'm one of those whom you should be presenting your case or at least what you've learned so far to. I have no prejudice in these matters only a desire to find out the truth

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The discussion is regarding a very specialized area, Mac goes to the usool works ie works produced by Kufan Shi'i companions and scholars who were the contemporaries of the Imams (as) instead of what we normally (lay men) do ie we quote from the works of Sheikh Saduq (ra) or Baqir Majlisi (ra).

Mac is basically challenging the finding of Al-Kulayni (ra) and Sheikh Saduq (ra) regarding the existence of 12 imams, the basic point is that the vast majority of companions/usooli scholars after the demise of Imam Al-Kathim (as) were waqifis and therefore our usooli/Asl works are filled with Waqifis (according to our rijal scholars) which goes against our 12 imams aqeeda, the point which i like to add is that there were Aftahites usoolis and many zaidi usoolis. In Tafsir Qomi (Jarud ibn Ziyad) there was a report regarding the 12 imams.

Shiasm was fractured into many many sects at one point and waqiifs were prominent along with Zaydis and some Aftahites. Only after Ghaiba e Kubra, shias became united.

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I have no knowledge about the Wafiqah so I will stay out of this, and I am also glad that this thread needs moderator approval as it is a sensitive issue.

I don't have much input regarding this issue, but I would just like to know how I can access the old *******.org including the ahadith from Imam ar-Ridha (as) and so forth.

archive.tashuyyu.com requires login which I don't have.

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That argument isn't quite as strong as it might appear.

The counter-argument would go something like this: Firstly, Sunnis sources are irrelevant since they are full of fabrications. Secondly, the number 12 doesn't appear to have figured very prominently in Shia circles until the time of Imam Mahdi (as). Before that, it's not like you had people saying "so-and-so can't be the Qa'im, because there haven't been 12 Imams yet." Obviously, had it been widely expected that there would be 12 Imams, then Waqifism would never have gotten off the ground in the first place. Now, a sceptic could argue that Shias only started to pay attention to the fact that this number 12 was contained in Sunni sources after it became necessary to back up the fact that there would only be 12 Imams (or that it was necessary for there to be 12 Imams, as some kind of 'logical proof' for the existence of the twelth Imam). So if one were to view the idea of twelve Imams as being an import from Sunnism, then the fact that it appears in both sources is hardly very important.

But then, macisaac himself once posted ahadith on the number 12 that apparently predate the occultation: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/234929534-hadiths-of-twelve-imams-in-books-prior-to-the-ghayba/

Also, this number twelve must have come from somewhere, and it is narrated a surprising amount of times in Sunni sources, considering the fact that it has absolutely no doctrinal relevance to them (which personally makes me doubt that it is fabricated). Overall, it would seem a bit coincidental that everything worked out this way.

 

 

You make some interesting points. However you say that if they knew there would be 12, why was there a few who thought 7? If you look back there was those that thought Imam Ali AS was God, and even when the Imam told them he wasnt, they still carried on thinking it, until they had to be put to death. I guess some people can put forward a belief that sounds convincing enough that they reject what the status quo suggests.

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علي بن أحمد البندنيجي، عن عبيد الله بن موسى العلوي، عن الحسن بن معاوية، عن الحسن بن محبوب، عن خلاد بن الصفار، قالسئل أبو عبد الله (عليه السلام): هل ولد القائمفقال: لا، ولو أدركته لخدمته أيام حياتي

 

Ali bin Ahmad al-Bandaneeji narrated from Obaydillah bin Musa al-Alawi from al-Hasan bin Mo’awiya from al-Hasan bin Mahboob that Khallad bin as-Saffar had said:
 
"Once Abu Abdullah as-Sadiq (s) was asked: Is al-Qaim (as) born?" He said: "No, he is not. If I live until he is born, I shall serve him as long as I live."
 
[source: Al-Gyahba - Numani, Chapter. 13, Hadees. 46]
 

Note: This narration from Imam Sadiq (as) indicates that the birth of al-Qaim (as) is still far off and for sure Imam Sadiq (as) would not have said this if His son Imam Musa Kazim (as) was the al-Qaim (as).

 

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(bismillah)

(salam)

 

Just a thought in my mind: It is something known in Islam that in every century there is a reviver of God's true religion, called a Mujaddid. (If I'm wrong and this has no basis in Shi`ism, please correct me). That means that not a century can go by without there being a certain person who calls the people back to the true path and guides some of them to it. Given that Musawi Waqifism was extinct for around a thousand years, and we are certain that many centuries passed in that time where not a single Waqifi existed in the whole world, it just doesn't fit in the equation. God's religion can not be extinct totally for that long. Wallahu A`lam. 

 

(wasalam)

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