Changing Of Climate According To Aimmah(As)

[Aquib Rizvi]

(bismillah)

(salam)

While reading Al-Kafi, I came across this amazing hadeeth on Climate change, I always knew Planets Moon and Sun do have impact on Climate but never knew that the postion of these two specific planet have such Impact on our climate change.

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن ابن محبوب، عن مالك بن عطية، عن سليمان بن خالد قال: سألت أبا عبد الله (عليه السلام)، عن الحر والبرد مما يكونان؟ فقال لي:يا أبا أيوب إن المريخ كوكب حار وزحل كوكب بارد فإذا بدأ المريخ في الارتفاع انحط زحل وذلك في الربيع فلا يزالان كذلك كلما ارتفع المريخ درجة انحط زحل درجة ثلاثة أشهر حتى ينتهي المريخ في الارتفاع وينتهي زحل في الهبوط فيجلو المريخ فلذلك يشتد الحر فإذا كان في آخر الصيف وأول الخريف بدأ زحل في الارتفاع وبدأ المريخ في الهبوط فلا يزالان كذلك كلما ارتفع زحل درجة انحط المريخ درجة حتى ينتهي المريخ في الهبوط وينتهي زحل في الارتفاع فيجلو زحل وذلك في أول الشتاء وآخر الخريف فلذلك يشتد البرد وكلما ارتفع هذا هبط هذا و كلما هبط هذا ارتفع هذا فإذا كان في الصيف يوم بارد فالفعل في ذلك للقمر وإذا كان في الشتاء يوم حار فالفعل في ذلك للشمس هذا تقدير العزيز العليم وأنا عبد رب العالمين

Ali Bin Ibrahim, from his father, from Ibn Mahboub, from Malik Bin Atiyya, from Suleyman Bin Khalid who said:

I asked Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام) about the heat and the cold, from what do they emanate?’ O Abu Ayyub! Mars is a hot planet and Saturn is a cold planet. So if Mars begins to rise, the Saturn goes lower, and that is in the spring. So they do not stop being like that. Every time Mars rises a level, Saturn falls for three months until the Mars ends up high and Saturn ends up in the decline.

For the Mars that is its hottest time. So when it is at the end of the summer and the beginning of the autumn, Saturn begins to ascend and the Mars begins to descend. So these two do not stop being like that. Every time Saturn rises a level, Mars declines a level, and that is at the beginning of the winter and at the end of the summer. So that is its coldest time.

Every time this one rises, this one comes down, and every time this one comes down, this one rises. So if there is a cold day in the summer, so that is the action of the Moon, and if there is a hot day in the winter, so that action is due to the Sun.

“[36:38] that is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing” and I am the servant of the Lord of the Worlds’.

Source:Al-Kafi by Kulyani,Vol 8,Pg 306,H 474

Grading:

1. Majlisi:"Hasan" (Mirat ul Uqool 26/398)
   
2. Asif Muhsini:"Mo'tabar" (Masharat Behar al-Anwaar 2/274)
   

[iDevonian]

I just want to point this out.

Mars is actually very cold and saturn is very hot. Mars, is actually, tectonically inactive, due to its coldness. It is like earth without the heat. Saturn, its actual solid portion is compressed by all of its gases, making it super super super super hot. I would imagine hotter than earth.

It is certainly possible that one may rise while the other descends during certain times of the year. However, their impact on our climate, I would imagine is just about non existent.

Of course we know that, the ah..."obliquity" of the earth, holds the most weight in our seasonal changes. As does the distance from the sun (which relates to the ah...eccentricity, of the earths orbit). Alsoooo theee...precession, which is...its like the rotational distance of the planets axis. Pardon, I am a bit rusty with this, its been a few years.

The gravitational pull of the moon effects the earth moreso than its energy output.

Edited March 9, 2013 by iDevonian

[Aquib Rizvi]

Mars is actually very cold and saturn is very hot.

(salam)

Aww!! brother i believe exactly opposite to what you have concluded. can you prove your statement

[iDevonian]

Edit edit

(salam)

Aww!! brother i believe exactly opposite to what you have concluded. can you prove your statement

Yes I can. We have a robot on mars now. We know what it is made of.

Mars, if you look at it (there are pictures online), you can see that...um...

On earth we have plate tectonics. Our continents drift around and run into eachother and split up and run into eachother again etc etc.

All of our continents drift around.

They do this because they are floating on hot magma. This is why we have volcanoes n such. They erupt and magma comes up to the surface.

Mars, if you look at it, its like a cooled apple pie. It starts out as a soft doe, but then it cools and cracks. We can see these cracks all over mars, and we can see that, it has cooled so much that its continents have stopped drifting. It has cooled into like a ball of cold rock. At least on the surface. I would imagine its still pretty hot near the core, though not nearly as hot as earth or saturn.

In regards to saturn. Saturn, we have the ability to um...

right so different molecules have different states of energy. If you shine lights at certain types of molecules, they absorb different wavelengths of light.

So, We can look at a planet like saturn, and based on the light waves it reflects, we can see what the planet is made of. Based on the composition of the planet, and the size, the core of saturn must be of a certain size to maintain its gas "bubble", and it must be of a certain density and weight.

With that, and I am not a astronomer (or an "Astro-geologist"), but I know that, with their geophysics, they can identify, roughly what kind of temperatures Saturn exists as. They are very hot temperatures. This can be done, with the help of ah you know, thermodynamics. The geologists and astronomers and chemists and physicists kind of all work together.

edit edit

If any of that doesnt make sense, feel free to let me know. I could try using pictures.

Edited March 9, 2013 by iDevonian

[Abu Hadi]

I think this is a weak hadith. iDevonian is right on this one. Mars is a cold planet, causes mentioned above. As for Saturn being a hot planet, it doesn't emit enough heat as radiation so that it reaches the earth, but it could be called 'hot' due to the great amount of heat and pressure at it's core, due to the effects of gravity on gases that surround the core. Global warming is due to increased amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere which creates the 'greenhouse effect', where the increased carbon dioxide slows down the escape of heat from the surface of the earth. This has been scientifically proven. It has nothing to do with Mars or Saturn.

Edited March 9, 2013 by Abu Hadi

[Aquib Rizvi]

Edit edit

Yes I can. We have a robot on mars now. We know what it is made of.

Mars, if you look at it (there are pictures online), you can see that...um...

On earth we have plate tectonics. Our continents drift around and run into eachother and split up and run into eachother again etc etc.

All of our continents drift around.

They do this because they are floating on hot magma. This is why we have volcanoes n such. They erupt and magma comes up to the surface.

Mars, if you look at it, its like a cooled apple pie. It starts out as a soft doe, but then it cools and cracks. We can see these cracks all over mars, and we can see that, it has cooled so much that its continents have stopped drifting. It has cooled into like a ball of cold rock. At least on the surface. I would imagine its still pretty hot near the core, though not nearly as hot as earth or saturn.

In regards to saturn. Saturn, we have the ability to um...

right so different molecules have different states of energy. If you shine lights at certain types of molecules, they absorb different wavelengths of light.

So, We can look at a planet like saturn, and based on the light waves it reflects, we can see what the planet is made of. Based on the composition of the planet, and the size, the core of saturn must be of a certain size to maintain its gas "bubble", and it must be of a certain density and weight.

With that, and I am not a astronomer, but I know that, with their physics, they can identify, roughly what kind of temperatures Saturn exists as. They are very hot temperatures.

See brother I dont know depth about composition of every planet ..as far as I know further the planets are away from sun cooler they become in terms of their temperature. so keeping this in mind the hadeeth does the justice.. Rest Allah knows best

[NonsectarianMuslim]

I don't think iDevonian means heat as in how we're thinking of hes speaking of core temperature if we look at Saturn at its relative distance from the Sun its surface temperature if it had a surface would be very cold but since we're dealing essentially with a big ball of gas with maybe some kind of solid core the core itself may be hot and hes right about different gases absorbing different wavelengths of light that's why when you look at the planets with standard camera or infrared cameras or through different light spectrums you see all these pretty different colors its because of which gases absorb which light :) I like space studies

[iDevonian]

See brother I dont know depth about composition of every planet ..as far as I know further the planets are away from sun cooler they become in terms of their temperature. so keeping this in mind the hadeeth does the justice.. Rest Allah knows best

Thats fine.

Um...I just will say though. Temperature of an object, especially rocks and planets, is often dependent on size and density.

Like ah...if you take a large person with a bunch of coats on, and stick him in the snow. He will be warmer for a longer period of time, than a large person who has no coats, who may be in a slightly warmer place. This is kind of how saturn and mars work.

How close a person stands to a heater (sun), is only part of what defines how warm they are. I could stand right next to a heater. If I am naked in the cold next to a heater, I will still be cold.

However, If I am far away from the heater (the sun), and I have a big coat around me (gases), then it doesnt matter if I am far from the heater because I can keep warm just by hiding in my coat.

I don't think iDevonian means heat as in how we're thinking of hes speaking of core temperature if we look at Saturn at its relative distance from the Sun its surface temperature if it had a surface would be very cold but since we're dealing essentially with a big ball of gas

This is fine as well.

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The hadith appears to be attributing the changes of seasons, climate change and hot and cold days, to the positions and temperatures of these planets. However, Saturn cannot even warm its own climate, let alone would it hold relation to climate change here on earth.

So even if we were talking about different parts of the planets, it still would not justify that interpretation of the hadith. Though I agree that we may be talking about different parts of the planets (at least in the case of saturn).

Edited March 9, 2013 by iDevonian

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

I m no scientist but I can tell you that Mars has lot of chemical reactions taking place all the time and the carbonate rocks that have been found are evidence of carbon dioxide decrease in the planet . And due to its proximity to the sun and its elliptical interface in the orbit around the sun its southern ends are hotter than the north and its temparature can be very hot depending on its annual position from the sun. And that would eventually saturate air during night whereas its the opposite during the day. And that would be the eventual cause of dust and a possible indication of generation of heat exertion towards its outer orbits.

[iDevonian]

Here is what I have found just by googling around a bit. Many websites point toward mars temperatures, during the summer time at particular points, being around 27 ° C, which is in the 80° in F.

During the winter the temperature can drop to -190 ° F or -123°C

Well, Ill move on from the discussion.

Really, no matter how you bend it or toy with the ideas, mars and saturn I do not think hold much if any weight with warming the climate.

Edited March 9, 2013 by iDevonian

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

Here is what I have found just by googling around a bit. Many websites point toward mars temperatures, during the summer time at particular points, being around 27 ° C, which is in the 80° in F.

During the winter the temperature can drop to -190 ° F or -123°C

I think there is a possible shift in weather conditions similar to earth because we have same seasons . Molten clay has been found on Mars which suggest that there was a lot of water once and the clay would form as the lava cools from 1,500 dg Celsius. Suggesting large volcanic eruptions at some point in history or are still untapped.

Clay was found in water rich magma

[iDevonian]

I think there is a possible shift in weather conditions similar to earth because we have same seasons . Molten clay has been found on Mars which suggest that there was a lot of water once and the clay would form as the lava cools from 1,500 dg Celsius. Suggesting large volcanic eruptions at some point in history or are still untapped.

Well yes, Mars was once an active warm planet. That was, maybe a billion years ago. Long long ago. Mars itself may warm and cool based on how it moves through space (It has summer and winter like we do, its just a whole lot colder), but it is so so so far away from earth, that its slight changes, really...if they did hold any significance in earths climate, it would be so miniscule, that it may as well not even exist.

I am not sure if you are trying to justify the idea that Mars and its temperatures and position may hold relation to earths climate, or if you are just saying that Mars warms and cools just like any other planet.

For the post below, Mars is...very very very far away, and is relatively small. Even if rays from the sun did reflect off of it and bounce back to us, they would be so few in number that the difference would go unnoticed. Mars has a hard enough time having any noticeable gravitational pull, let alone could its tiny amount of heat reach us.

If you are just saying that mars warms and cools like all other planets, then I would agree with that. It was most certainly much hotter in the past.

Edited March 9, 2013 by iDevonian

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

Well yes, Mars was once an active warm planet. That was, maybe a billion years ago. Long long ago. Mars itself may warm and cool based on how it moves through space (It has summer and winter like we do, its just a whole lot colder), but it is so so so far away from earth, that its slight changes, really...if they did hold any significance in earths climate, it would be so miniscule, that it may as well not even exist.

I am not sure if you are trying to justify the idea that Mars and its temperatures and position may hold relation to earths climate, or if you are just saying that Mars warms and cools just like any other planet.

If you are just saying that mars warms and cools like all other planets, then I would agree with that.

Traits of earth (and inhabitants of earth) that (some of which) hold relation to the sun are 99.9999% drivers of earths climate. Saturn and Mars combined I doubt even contribute a small fraction of a percent of a difference.

It heats and cools in a different way bro. What's happens when you hit a ball on the wall? It bounces back and same is with Mars. The heat of sun does not stay longer. Maybe it used to millions of years ago or maybe hundreds of years ago. It takes only the amount of heat it requires and bounces most of it back. And I do not know how much of it affects the earth.

The clay has not been observed flong enough to conclude anything. Mars could have varying temperatures every few feet from ground towards sky. So can't really be sure how the west to east travelling winds of Mars with the bounced back heat affect the earth's atmosphere. It could be a subject of research for someone like you.

[Aquib Rizvi]

Here is what I have found just by googling around a bit. Many websites point toward mars temperatures, during the summer time at particular points, being around 27 ° C, which is in the 80° in F.

During the winter the temperature can drop to -190 ° F or -123°C

Well, Ill move on from the discussion.

Really, no matter how you bend it or toy with the ideas, mars and saturn I do not think hold much if any weight with warming the climate.

Ok Brother the Position of both the planets may not affect the Climate of Earth, but here hadeeth can also be understood that maybe Imam must have been giving only the position of planets when Climate changes in earth regardless of it effect on our climate.

Btw thanks for your wonderful explanation.

[iDevonian]

Well, I will say that, the Hadith likely still holds truth in the positions of the planets. I am not too familiar with sahih, and the credibility of these scholars, so I cannot judge.

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

Well, I will say that, the Hadith likely still holds truth in the positions of the planets. I am not too familiar with sahih, and the credibility of these scholars, so I cannot judge.

Even the other parts could be true as well or one of the narrator could have jumbled up somewhere. I remember reading about Saturn in our books and how people used to associate bad luck with but As sadiq a.s said it is the planet of Ali a.s.and there was some detail about it.

[Cake]

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن ابن محبوب، عن مالك بن عطية، عن سليمان بن خالد قال: سألت أبا عبد الله (عليه السلام)، عن الحر والبرد مما يكونان؟ فقال لي:يا أبا أيوب إن المريخ كوكب حار وزحل كوكب بارد فإذا بدأ المريخ في الارتفاع انحط زحل وذلك في الربيع فلا يزالان كذلك كلما ارتفع المريخ درجة انحط زحل درجة ثلاثة أشهر حتى ينتهي المريخ في الارتفاع وينتهي زحل في الهبوط فيجلو المريخ فلذلك يشتد الحر فإذا كان في آخر الصيف وأول الخريف بدأ زحل في الارتفاع وبدأ المريخ في الهبوط فلا يزالان كذلك كلما ارتفع زحل درجة انحط المريخ درجة حتى ينتهي المريخ في الهبوط وينتهي زحل في الارتفاع فيجلو زحل وذلك في أول الشتاء وآخر الخريف فلذلك يشتد البرد وكلما ارتفع هذا هبط هذا و كلما هبط هذا ارتفع هذا فإذا كان في الصيف يوم بارد فالفعل في ذلك للقمر وإذا كان في الشتاء يوم حار فالفعل في ذلك للشمس هذا تقدير العزيز العليم وأنا عبد رب العالمين

Ali Bin Ibrahim, from his father, from Ibn Mahboub, from Malik Bin Atiyya, from Suleyman Bin Khalid who said:

 

In my personal opinion:

From an isnad point of view, this hadith cannot be proven to be sahih as it cannot be proven that Ibn Mahbub received this hadith directly from Malik bin Atiyya. In support of this:

Ibn Mahbub has narrated from Malik through his intermediary*, Ali bin Ri'ab. For example: Al-Kafi, volume 7, page 202:

 [1] عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنِ ابْنِ رِئَابٍ عَنْ مَالِكِ بْنِ عَطِيَّةَ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ بَيْنَا أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ع فِي مَلَإٍ مِنْ أَصْحَابِهِ إِذْ أَتَاهُ رَجُلٌ فَقَال‏

Also, the only other trustworthy narrator who definitely heard from Malik, in the Four Books, is Ali bin al-Hakam (who seems to be Ibn Mahbub's senior).

And, he is not listed by anyone as being a companion of the 7th Imam and he has no narrations from the 7th Imam (at least in the Four Books), so it cannot be proven that he reached Imam al-Kadhim's [a] Imamate. Tusi lists Malik as a companion of Imams 4, 5, 6 and and we know that it is reported that Ibn Mahbub was born in 149AH. Therefore, Malik may have been an older companion of Imam as-Sadiq [a], who did not reach the Imamate of al-Kadhim [a] and hence Ibn Mahbub was unable to hear from him. And even if he reached the Imamate of the 7th Imam, he only reached, say, the first couple of years, as Zurara did (approximately)

 

*=Ordinarily, we would not take a small minority of cases where there was an intermediary as evidence that the other, majority of narrations, which lack an intermediary, are mursal. However, Ibn Mahbub has been accused of narrating many marasil from Abi Hamza ath-Thamali, and there are other narrators from whom he reported who it is very unlikely he heard directly from, such as Abu al-Jarud. In this case, the evidences together are sufficient to remove certainty in the ittissal of this narration, which is a condition for sihha.

 

It should also be noted that "odd" hadiths cannot be used to attack the veracity of a narrator, like Ibn Mahbub, when that narrator has been affirmed to be trustworthy - especially when that narrator is a major muhaddith who narrates thousands of hadiths (because then the chance of an odd hadith in the possession of that narrator increases, hence why there are some odd hadiths in the collections of Saduq).

 

(wasalam)

Edited June 25, 2013 by Cake

[Jamal Al Hasan]

I like the shia simple logic behind rijal of sahih hadiths. if it contradicts logic, its not sahih.

[Abu Hadi]

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن ابن محبوب، عن مالك بن عطية، عن سليمان بن خالد قال: سألت أبا عبد الله (عليه السلام)، عن الحر والبرد مما يكونان؟ فقال لي:يا أبا أيوب إن المريخ كوكب حار وزحل كوكب بارد فإذا بدأ المريخ في الارتفاع انحط زحل وذلك في الربيع فلا يزالان كذلك كلما ارتفع المريخ درجة انحط زحل درجة ثلاثة أشهر حتى ينتهي المريخ في الارتفاع وينتهي زحل في الهبوط فيجلو المريخ فلذلك يشتد الحر فإذا كان في آخر الصيف وأول الخريف بدأ زحل في الارتفاع وبدأ المريخ في الهبوط فلا يزالان كذلك كلما ارتفع زحل درجة انحط المريخ درجة حتى ينتهي المريخ في الهبوط وينتهي زحل في الارتفاع فيجلو زحل وذلك في أول الشتاء وآخر الخريف فلذلك يشتد البرد وكلما ارتفع هذا هبط هذا و كلما هبط هذا ارتفع هذا فإذا كان في الصيف يوم بارد فالفعل في ذلك للقمر وإذا كان في الشتاء يوم حار فالفعل في ذلك للشمس هذا تقدير العزيز العليم وأنا عبد رب العالمين

Ali Bin Ibrahim, from his father, from Ibn Mahboub, from Malik Bin Atiyya, from Suleyman Bin Khalid who said:

 

In my personal opinion:

From an isnad point of view, this hadith cannot be proven to be sahih as it cannot be proven that Ibn Mahbub received this hadith directly from Malik bin Atiyya. In support of this:

Ibn Mahbub has narrated from Malik through his intermediary*, Ali bin Ri'ab. For example: Al-Kafi, volume 7, page 202:

 [1] عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنِ ابْنِ رِئَابٍ عَنْ مَالِكِ بْنِ عَطِيَّةَ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ بَيْنَا أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ع فِي مَلَإٍ مِنْ أَصْحَابِهِ إِذْ أَتَاهُ رَجُلٌ فَقَال‏

Also, the only other trustworthy narrator who definitely heard from Malik, in the Four Books, is Ali bin al-Hakam (who seems to be Ibn Mahbub's senior).

And, he is not listed by anyone as being a companion of the 7th Imam and he has no narrations from the 7th Imam (at least in the Four Books), so it cannot be proven that he reached Imam al-Kadhim's [a] Imamate. Tusi lists Malik as a companion of Imams 4, 5, 6 and and we know that it is reported that Ibn Mahbub was born in 149AH. Therefore, Malik may have been an older companion of Imam as-Sadiq [a], who did not reach the Imamate of al-Kadhim [a] and hence Ibn Mahbub was unable to hear from him. And even if he reached the Imamate of the 7th Imam, he only reached, say, the first couple of years, as Zurara did (approximately)

 

*=Ordinarily, we would not take a small minority of cases where there was an intermediary as evidence that the other, majority of narrations, which lack an intermediary, are mursal. However, Ibn Mahbub has been accused of narrating many marasil from Abi Hamza ath-Thamali, and there are other narrators from whom he reported who it is very unlikely he heard directly from, such as Abu al-Jarud. In this case, the evidences together are sufficient to remove certainty in the ittissal of this narration, which is a condition for sihha.

 

It should also be noted that "odd" hadiths cannot be used to attack the veracity of a narrator, like Ibn Mahbub, when that narrator has been affirmed to be trustworthy - especially when that narrator is a major muhaddith who narrates thousands of hadiths (because then the chance of an odd hadith in the possession of that narrator increases, hence why there are some odd hadiths in the collections of Saduq).

 

(wasalam)

 

This and the fact that it is a lone narration (only one source ) means that, well, I wouldn't change my beliefs on anything (about Mars, climate change, etc) based on this hadith. 

[IbnSohan]

I am not an expert in the celestial sphere and the planet motion on the eclipse but.... Saturn is colder than Mars.

[Cake]

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن ابن محبوب، عن مالك بن عطية، عن سليمان بن خالد قال: سألت أبا عبد الله (عليه السلام)، عن الحر والبرد مما يكونان؟ فقال لي:يا أبا أيوب إن المريخ كوكب حار وزحل كوكب بارد فإذا بدأ المريخ في الارتفاع انحط زحل وذلك في الربيع فلا يزالان كذلك كلما ارتفع المريخ درجة انحط زحل درجة ثلاثة أشهر حتى ينتهي المريخ في الارتفاع وينتهي زحل في الهبوط فيجلو المريخ فلذلك يشتد الحر فإذا كان في آخر الصيف وأول الخريف بدأ زحل في الارتفاع وبدأ المريخ في الهبوط فلا يزالان كذلك كلما ارتفع زحل درجة انحط المريخ درجة حتى ينتهي المريخ في الهبوط وينتهي زحل في الارتفاع فيجلو زحل وذلك في أول الشتاء وآخر الخريف فلذلك يشتد البرد وكلما ارتفع هذا هبط هذا و كلما هبط هذا ارتفع هذا فإذا كان في الصيف يوم بارد فالفعل في ذلك للقمر وإذا كان في الشتاء يوم حار فالفعل في ذلك للشمس هذا تقدير العزيز العليم وأنا عبد رب العالمين

Ali Bin Ibrahim, from his father, from Ibn Mahboub, from Malik Bin Atiyya, from Suleyman Bin Khalid who said:

 

In my personal opinion:

From an isnad point of view, this hadith cannot be proven to be sahih as it cannot be proven that Ibn Mahbub received this hadith directly from Malik bin Atiyya. In support of this:

Ibn Mahbub has narrated from Malik through his intermediary*, Ali bin Ri'ab. For example: Al-Kafi, volume 7, page 202:

 [1] عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنِ ابْنِ رِئَابٍ عَنْ مَالِكِ بْنِ عَطِيَّةَ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ بَيْنَا أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ع فِي مَلَإٍ مِنْ أَصْحَابِهِ إِذْ أَتَاهُ رَجُلٌ فَقَال‏

Also, the only other trustworthy narrator who definitely heard from Malik, in the Four Books, is Ali bin al-Hakam (who seems to be Ibn Mahbub's senior).

And, he is not listed by anyone as being a companion of the 7th Imam and he has no narrations from the 7th Imam (at least in the Four Books), so it cannot be proven that he reached Imam al-Kadhim's [a] Imamate. Tusi lists Malik as a companion of Imams 4, 5, 6 and and we know that it is reported that Ibn Mahbub was born in 149AH. Therefore, Malik may have been an older companion of Imam as-Sadiq [a], who did not reach the Imamate of al-Kadhim [a] and hence Ibn Mahbub was unable to hear from him. And even if he reached the Imamate of the 7th Imam, he only reached, say, the first couple of years, as Zurara did (approximately)

 

*=Ordinarily, we would not take a small minority of cases where there was an intermediary as evidence that the other, majority of narrations, which lack an intermediary, are mursal. However, Ibn Mahbub has been accused of narrating many marasil from Abi Hamza ath-Thamali, and there are other narrators from whom he reported who it is very unlikely he heard directly from, such as Abu al-Jarud. In this case, the evidences together are sufficient to remove certainty in the ittissal of this narration, which is a condition for sihha.

 

It should also be noted that "odd" hadiths cannot be used to attack the veracity of a narrator, like Ibn Mahbub, when that narrator has been affirmed to be trustworthy - especially when that narrator is a major muhaddith who narrates thousands of hadiths (because then the chance of an odd hadith in the possession of that narrator increases, hence why there are some odd hadiths in the collections of Saduq).

 

 

 الضُّعَفَاءُ الْكَبِيرِ لِلْعُقَيْلِيِّ >> بَابُ السِّينِ >> سُدَيْرٌ الصَّيْرَفِيُّ(" أَنْتَ أَخِي " وَقَدْ رُوِيَ هَذَا مِنْ غَيْرِ هَذَا الْوَجْهِ)

779 وَمِنْ حَدِيثِهِ مَا حَدَّثَنَاهُ عُبَيْدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ الْوَاحِدِ قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا عَمْرُو بْنُ عُثْمَانَ الْخَزَّازُ قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا الْحَسَنُ بْنُ مَحْبُوبٍ الزَّرَّادُ قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا مَالِكُ بْنُ عَطِيَّةَ الْجُهَنِيُّ ، عَنْ سُدَيْرٍ الصَّيْرَفِيِّ ، عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ ، عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ الْخُدْرِيِّ قَالَ : سَمِعْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَقُولُ لِعَلِيٍّ : " أَنْتَ أَخِي " وَقَدْ رُوِيَ هَذَا مِنْ غَيْرِ هَذَا الْوَجْهِ بِأَسَانِيدَ مُتَقَارِبَةٍ ، وَأَبُو جَعْفَرٍ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَلِيٍّ لَا يَتَّصِلُ بِأَبِي سَعِيدٍ الْخُدْرِيِّ *

[skylight2]

the hadith may be hinting more at an energy level - than a physical "hotness" - we know that in eastern medicine there are concepts of "heat" and "cold" that do not necessarily mean heat and coldness in temperature but at another level - of activity... so Mars has been considered a hot planet in its quality  ... and Saturn a "cold" planet - in its quality ... not necessarily its temperature... see these definitions for example: 

 

I did a google search to see how astrology/metaphysicians see these planets, and found the following interesting, and in line with the hadith: 

 

http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-files/planets.html

 

Mars: Main principle: to energize, activate and direct. Mars is exceedingly hot and dry (choleric) by nature which qualifys it as a malefic. The heat creates disturbance and anger and the dryness creates distinctions by which ideologies can further animosities and keep opposites apart. Mars is a very masculine planet. Its main purpose is survival instinct. It signifies war, violence, danger, actions and decisions.

 

and 

 

Saturn: Main principle: to contract (negentropy), jell (crystallize), to form or organize, ignorance or agnoia. Saturn is exceedingly cold and dry which qualifies it as a malefic. The dryness makes distinctions which separate and the cold nullifies or slows activity and togetherness. This can create depression and a lack of understanding of other perspectives. But the coldness allows concentration of molecules (ideas) and the dryness gives it structured form. It signifies responsibility, achievement and discipline.

 

Now... whether this hadith is sahih or not ... it appears that it is in line with metaphysical understanding of planets ... or astrology.... Could be that it is a fabrication by an astrologer... or, could be that the Imam (as) was speaking not about physical temperature - but the quality of the planets - what they represent. 

 

But, frankly, this is all conjecture, and would need someone with far more knowledge about these matters to provide an explanation... 

[guest050817]

So is he a disputed narrator?

 

I told everyone that hadiths graded hasan , saheeh, muwathaq aren't necessarily true, it is our rijal that needs modifying.

 

Again we find from Ibn Mahboub in the chain. He was the one in the chain of the strange embrology hadith.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Tawheed313

[iraqi_shia]

On 2/3/2015 at 6:55 PM, uponthesunnah said:

So is he a disputed narrator?

 

I told everyone that hadiths graded hasan , saheeh, muwathaq aren't necessarily true, it is our rijal that needs modifying.

 

Again we find from Ibn Mahboub in the chain. He was the one in the chain of the strange embrology hadith.

From the wording of the hadith i think they have all misunderstood.

It appears to talk about the position of the planets in our sky relative to one and another and the seasons. Eg when mars is higher in the sky then it is spring summer for 3 months and so on.

It is not talking about the temperatures of the planets themselves, but the seasons on our planet and the relation to the planets positions.

I suspect the Imam AS is alluding to the fact that our planet is on a tilt, this makes the other planets change position in the sky and this is what causes the seasons.