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Salam alaykum,

I have approved this thread in hope that good discussion will take place; with good akhlaq being maintained. I have edited your thread and taken out the other links because there was too many. I suggest debating/discussing a few questions at a time and then posting more after the question(s) have been answered.

I will be keeping a close eye on this thread and will deal with anyone being rude/insulting/etc very strictly.

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Video #1: 1:59 to 2:11

Ali (as) gave his daughter ''with happiness'' to one (Umar) whom he considered to be liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest? :wacko:

فَرَأَيْتُمَاهُ كَاذِبًا آثِمًا غَادِرًا خَائِنًا وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ إِنَّهُ لَصَادِقٌ بَارٌّ رَاشِدٌ تَابِعٌ لِلْحَقِّ ثُمَّ تُوُفِّيَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ وَأَنَا وَلِيُّ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَوَلِيُّ أَبِي بَكْرٍ فَرَأَيْتُمَانِي كَاذِبًا آثِمًا غَادِرًا خَائِنًا

So both of you thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you thought me to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest.

Sahih Muslim, Hadith Number # 4676

Edited by Rasul

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http://www.schiiten.com/backup/http://www.*****************.com/www.http://www.*****************.com/articles/sahabah/liar-sinful-treacherous-dishonest.html

Read and weep friend.

Really you should leave that annoying habit of quoting half Hadiths, it's so annoying.

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http://www.schiiten....-dishonest.html

Read and weep friend.

Really you should leave that annoying habit of quoting half Hadiths, it's so annoying.

Rather you should cry...

Did I say that it is whole hadith? Are you blind? Could you not see that it is quote from hadith? btw the whole hadith is too long...

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Rather you should cry...

Did I say that it is whole hadith? Are you blind? Could you not see that it is quote from hadith? btw the whole hadith is too long...

Lolz great answer Allahu Akbar may Allah have mercy on you.

You quoted half a Hadith, subhanallah.

The Hadith is too long????? What kind of an answer is that??

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Lolz great answer Allahu Akbar may Allah have mercy on you.

You quoted half a Hadith, subhanallah.

The Hadith is too long????? What kind of an answer is that??

I quoted the part that shows reality between Sahaba, Ali (as) was not ''Umar's or Abu Bakr's best friend'' like you Omaris belief ;)

حَدَّثَنَا عُبَيْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ عُمَرَ بْنِ مَيْسَرَةَ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنُ مَهْدِيٍّ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ الْمُبَارَكِ، عَنْ يُونُسَ بْنِ يَزِيدَ، عَنِ الزُّهْرِيِّ، أَخْبَرَنِي سَعِيدُ بْنُ الْمُسَيَّبِ، أَخْبَرَنِي جُبَيْرُ بْنُ مُطْعِمٍ، أَنَّهُ جَاءَ هُوَ وَعُثْمَانُ بْنُ عَفَّانَ يُكَلِّمَانِ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فِيمَا قَسَمَ مِنَ الْخُمُسِ بَيْنَ بَنِي هَاشِمٍ وَبَنِي الْمُطَّلِبِ فَقُلْتُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ قَسَمْتَ لإِخْوَانِنَا بَنِي الْمُطَّلِبِ وَلَمْ تُعْطِنَا شَيْئًا وَقَرَابَتُنَا وَقَرَابَتُهُمْ مِنْكَ وَاحِدَةٌ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ إِنَّمَا بَنُو هَاشِمٍ وَبَنُو الْمُطَّلِبِ شَىْءٌ وَاحِدٌ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ جُبَيْرٌ وَلَمْ يَقْسِمْ لِبَنِي عَبْدِ شَمْسٍ وَلاَ لِبَنِي نَوْفَلٍ مِنْ ذَلِكَ الْخُمُسِ كَمَا قَسَمَ لِبَنِي هَاشِمٍ وَبَنِي الْمُطَّلِبِ ‏.‏ قَالَ وَكَانَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ يَقْسِمُ الْخُمُسَ نَحْوَ قَسْمِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم غَيْرَ أَنَّهُ لَمْ يَكُنْ يُعْطِي قُرْبَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم مَا كَانَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم يُعْطِيهِمْ ‏.‏ قَالَ وَكَانَ عُمَرُ بْنُ الْخَطَّابِ يُعْطِيهِمْ مِنْهُ وَعُثْمَانُ بَعْدَهُ

It was reported from Jubair bin Mut'im that he and 'Uthman bin 'Affan came to speak to the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) about the division of the Khumus among Banu Hashim and Banu Al-Muttalib.

I said: ''O Messenger of Allah, you gave a share to our brethren of Banu Al-Muttalib, and you did not give us anything, but our relationship to you is the same as theirs.'' The Prophet (pbuh) said: '' Rather, Banu Hashim and Banu Al-Muttalib are the same thing.''

Jubair said: ''He did not give a share of that Khumus to Banu 'Abd Shams or Banu Nawfal as he gave to Banu Hashim and Banu Al-Muttalib.''

He said: ''Abu Bakr used to divide the Khumus as the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) did, except that he did not give to the relatives of the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) what the Prophet (pbuh) used to give them.''

He said: ''And 'Umar bin Al-Khattab and 'Uthman gave them some of it after him.''

______________________

Sunni - Salafi References:

Source: Sahih Sunan Abu Dawud by Imam Albani, Volume 2, page 576, Hadith Number # 2978

Grading of Albani: ( Sahih )

حدثنا : محمد بن بشر ، نا : عبيد الله بن عمر ، حدثنا : زيد بن أسلم ، عن أبيه أسلم : أنه حين بويع لأبي بكر بعد رسول الله (ص) كان علي والزبير يدخلان على فاطمة بنت رسول الله (ص) فيشاورونها ويرتجعون في أمرهم ، فلما بلغ ذلك عمر بن الخطاب خرج حتى دخل على فاطمة ، فقال : يا بنت رسول الله (ص) ، والله ما من أحد أحب إلينا من أبيك ، وما من أحد أحب إلينا بعد أبيك منك ، وأيم الله ما ذاك بمانعي إن إجتمع هؤلاء النفر عندك ، أن أمرتهم أن يحرق عليهم البيت ، قال : فلما خرج عمر جاءوها فقالت : تعلمون أن عمر قد جاءني وقد حلف بالله لئن عدتم ليحرقن عليكم البيت وأيم الله ليمضين لما حلف عليه ، فإنصرفوا راشدين ، فروا رأيكم ولا ترجعوا إلي ، فإنصرفوا عنها فلم يرجعوا إليها حتى بايعوا لأبي بكر

Narrated Muhammad bin Bashir from Ubaidllah bin Umar from Zaid bin Aslam that his father Aslam said: ''When the homage (baya) went to Abu Bakr after the Messenger of Allah, Ali and Zubair were entering into the house of Fatima to consult her and revise their issue, so when Umar came to know about that, he went to Fatima and said : ‘Oh daughter of Messenger of Allah, no one is dearest to us more than your father and no one dearest to us after your father than you, I swear by Allah, if these people gathered in your house then nothing will prevent me from giving order to burn the house and those who are inside.’ So when Umar left, they (Ali and Zubair) came , so she (Fatima) said to them: ‘Do you know that Umar came here and swear by Allah to burn the house if you gather here, I swear by God that he (Umar) will execute his oath, so please leave wisely and take a decision and don’t gather here again.’ So they left her and didn’t gather there till they give baya to Abu Bakr.''

______________________

Sunni - Salafi References:

Source: Musannaf of Ibn Abi Seybe, Volume 20, page 579, Hadith Number # 38200

Grading: ( Sahih )

أنه لما يجب على غضب عمر وأضرم النار بباب على وأحرقه ودخل فاستقبلته فاطمة وصاحت يا أبتاه ويا رسول الله فرفع عمر السيف وهو فى غمده فوجأ به جنبها المبارك ورفع السوط فضرب به ضرعها فصاحت يا أبتاه فأخذ على بتلابيب عمر وهزه ووجأ أنفه ورقبته

Alusi Baghdadi well known Sunni Mufassir [1] writes:

''Umar became angry and burned the door of Ali's house and broke into the house of Ali, Fatima opposed Umar and cried out : "Oh, father! O Messenger of Allah! 'Umar swunged with the sword which was in its sheath and struck the side of Fatima, and then struck her with whip in the shoulder. Fatima moaned, "Oh, father!" Ali got up from his seat and grabbed Umar's chest and threw him on the ground, then punched him in the nose and neck."

______________________

Sunni - Salafi References:

Source: Ruhul -Ma'ani by Alusi Baghdadi, Volume 3, page 124,

[1] Interpreter of the Holy Quran

Edited by Rasul

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The part of the Hadeeth quoted by brother Rasul gives total picture of 'relation' between the Abu Bakr umar and Imam Ali a.s, Imam Ali a.s deemed them as so and so and so , and it was said by Umar, Now whatever umar thinks about himself that is not our business , He use to think he is a prophet!!!

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The part of the Hadeeth quoted by brother Rasul gives total picture of 'relation' between the Abu Bakr umar and Imam Ali a.s, Imam Ali a.s deemed them as so and so and so , and it was said by Umar, Now whatever umar thinks about himself that is not our business , He use to think he is a prophet!!!

You didn't read the link brother Just the Truth shared:

http://www.schiiten....-dishonest.html

Read and weep friend.

Really you should leave that annoying habit of quoting half Hadiths, it's so annoying.

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Five of shias imam named their sons after the name of Abubakr,Umar and Uthman; 1st imam Ali 2nd imam hasan 3rd imam Husain 4th imam zainul abideen 5th imam musa kazim; imam ali named 3 of his sons abubakr, umar and uthman, imam hasan named 2 of his sons abubakr and umar, imam Husain named 2 of his son abubakr and umar, imam zainul abideen named 2 of his sons umar and uthman, imam musa named his sons abubakr and umar.

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Right brothers/sisters let's not be rabbits and jump from one Hadith to another let's go back to the start and then slowly work our way to any other Hadiths.

First Hadith if instead of quoting half Hadith you read the rest firstly Abbas calls Ali liar, dishonest etc etc and it was ABBAS AMD ALI WHO CAME TO UMAR calling him Amir ul mimineen and also in that very Hadith Ali and Abbas both admit that prophets dont leave inheritance. So Abu bakr and Umar were NOT sinful dishonest etc, as Ali and Abbas admit that Abu bakr and Umar were right.

Either accept whole Hadith or none of it 

Regarding fadak:

http://www.schiiten.com/backup/http://www.*****************.com/www.http://www.*****************.com/category/articles/sahabah.html

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Salaam brother

"If there was a Prophet after me, then it would be 'Umar"

رواه الترمذي ( 2 / 293 ) و حسنه ، و الحاكم ( 3 / 85 ) و صححه

Narrated by Al-Tirmidhi, vol. 2, pg. 293, and he said it was Hasan; (narrated) by Al-Haakim, vol. 3, pg. 85 and he said it was SaHeeH

The quotation above defies logic...we have been taught that Prophet Mohammed PBUH is he final prophet and we should follow his saying's... how can one actually believe that the Prophet himself would have even suggested that "if there was" when the Apostle of Allah clearly revealed :

"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Apostle of God, and the Seal of the Prophets: and God has full knowledge of all things. (The Noble Quran, 33:40)"

By Allah...the Quran is determined 100% accurate therefore how can one even suggest that the Prophet Mohammed PBUH would even suggest "if there was"...because if he did suggest that..people would start to follow Umar bin Al-Khattab because he has been put in the status of a Prophet...how can a Muslim even suggest this is Saheeh is still a question which blows my mind and the fact that you believe that the Hadith is 100% accurate it confuses and forces you into believing it when it contradicts verses..

"If there was a Prophet after me" ... Prophet Mohammed...would never say this because in the Quran it clearly states:

Nor does he speak out of his (own) desire; (The Noble Quran, 53:3)"

The Mere fact that the Hadith suggest "If there was a Prophet after me" ... contradicts [33:40]..which Prophet Mohammed PBUH would never do because he is like a walking Quran secondly.. by saying "then it would be 'Umar""... means hes speaking out of his own desire because he is suggesting a candidate..which contradicts [53:3] which says he doesn't speak out of his own desires PBUH... for any sensible man who's heart is open and mind is clear and accepts Logic will straight away know that there are problems with such Hadith...and the fact that many will believe in such a saying make's Muslims give credit to certain personalities more than others..

now let me answer you first Question can you see in actual fact that one must get out of this habit of actually thinking such Hadith's are 100% accurate the hadith and Quranic verses above ive clearly shown you a contradiction therefore..one can refute the Hadith that you posted because in the school of Ahlul Bayt we believe

THERE IS NO BOOK WHICH IS 100% ACCURATE ACCEPT THE QURAN...the fact that the books contradicts the Quran and Prophet Mohammed PBUH's revelations from Allah SWT... means that as a Muslim we cannot deem it 100% accurate...

Furthermore.. if you want to believe that the hadith is true let’s look at other hadiths to actually understand an incident where Umar ibn Khattab may have been seen in the wrong then you can actually understand if he did show signs of being as quoted in Muslim in the article u posted above as a "Liar, Sinful, Treacherous and Dishonest".. By Allah by my witness I’m not trying to hurt anyone’s feelings but this is an academic discussion so with all respect we shall proceed.

the best answer is the incident of the Pen and Paper with Quranic Reference on Obedience:

In the Quran it clearly states without a shadow of doubt:

"And obey God and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that the sole duty of the messenger is the deliverance (of the message)" 5:92

"And obey God and obey the messenger, but if you turn back, then upon Our messenger is the sole duty of the clear delivery (of the message)" 64:12

what can we learn from the above...that their is a certain sense of obedience towards the Messenger of Allah SWT you have to obey him accordingly because he would never lead you astray nor would he speak out of his own desires so his command must have a meaning or be beneficiary to the people..

Sahih Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 70, Number 573:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

When Allah's Apostle was on his death-bed and in the house there were some people among whom was 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, the Prophet said, "Come, let me write for you a statement after which you will not go astray." 'Umar said, "The Prophet is seriously ill and you have the Qur'an; so the Book of Allah is enough for us." The people present in the house differed and quarrelled. Some said "Go near so that the Prophet may write for you a statement after which you will not go astray," while the others said as Umar said. When they caused a hue and cry before the Prophet, Allah's Apostle said, "Go away!" Narrated 'Ubaidullah: Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was very unfortunate that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise."

Firstly, any logical thinker will clearly admit that one is not showing obedience to the messenger of Allah SWT PBUH... anyone reading this answer this question from a clean heart..

If the messenger PBUH is in his final moments would you sit back and tell him that the Quran is enough or would you run to get what he requires as soon as possible because the Quran tells us to obey...by all means think of it Logically he doesn't speak out of his own desires...

so would you say its Sin to go against the obedience of a command by the Prophet PBUH?

well thats for you to decide and not me most Muslims would agree with me and say YES you must obey...

Secondly Umar says "you have the Qur'an; so the Book of Allah is enough for us."

Now lets understand this.. weather you are a Shi'a or from Ahlus Sunnah we all believe in the two weighty things we believe in the Quran & AhlulBayt...by Allah you believe in the Quran & Sunnah..which I still dont understand how you concluded such a Hadith when tirmidi clearly states the Quran & AhlulBayt:

Zaid bin Arqam narrated that Muhammed said: "Indeed, I am leaving among you, that which if you hold fast to them, you shall not be misguided after me. One of then is greater than the other: (First is) The book of God is a rope extended from the sky to the earth, and (the second is) my family, the people of my house (ahlul bait), and they shall not split until they meet me at the hawd, so look at how you deal with them after me." (Sahih).

My question is if Umar is so Knowledgable and his involved in every single affair with the Muslim Ummah then why doesnt he say:

"we have the Quran and Sunnah or the Quran and Ahlulbayt is enough for us"

is he being "Treacherous and Dishonest" here as THE HADITH IN MUSLIM STATES?

by Allah it is not for me to Judge or Decide..however Allah SWT gave me this wonderfull charactersistic known as logic thinkin how can I follow someone who gives his Own opinion saying the Quran is enough when we all know their are two weighty things..

this suggest hes either being "Treacherous or Dishonest" or his knowledge is not actually what we may have attributed because if he was a WALKING QURAN he would remeber the verse about obidence and would NOT say you are ill..because the Messenger never speaks out of his own desires..

By Allah I dont want to hurt anyone's feelings but this academically whats been given in our heritage and we can only understand heritage if we go through a process of critical analysis...

try refute what im saying.. throughout the reply...

By Allah we will only Answer to Allah and NO one else....

Try understand we are not enemies were just logical thinkers who believe that the Quran is 100% accurate and no other book is....try refer more the Quran whenever you read a suspicous Hadith e.g. the Umar being a prophet..by Allah you will find he Answer

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"If there was a Prophet after me, then it would be 'Umar"

رواه الترمذي ( 2 / 293 ) و حسنه ، و الحاكم ( 3 / 85 ) و صححه

Narrated by Al-Tirmidhi, vol. 2, pg. 293, and he said it was Hasan; (narrated) by Al-Haakim, vol. 3, pg. 85 and he said it was SaHeeH

I think the brother got it wrong when he said he thinks he was a prophet...in actual fact he should have said THE SCHOLARS OF AHLUS SUNNAH put him in a category of making him seem like a candidate for being a Prophet by adding such hadith as Saheeh because one will blindly follow it because You have been taught that the hadith is 100% accurate which in an actual fact is not true...because there is no book accept the Quran which is 100% accurate.

Plus ive shown you how the saying contradicts the Quran... just read what I have said Ive tried to show an academical discussion.. Please both parties try to refute from attacking each other and reply to me with Quranic verses with their Correct context.. Im currently... going to be carrying out my PHD in Islamic Studies...so please do not think you are talking to someone with little Knowledge... I usually use such a forum to understand the Misconception Amongst the Shi'a themselves but this is the first time Ive seen someone try use an article which from a website called

http://www.schiiten.com

and actually try condemn what the Hadith says by using the opinion of certain sheikhs without reference for example the article u showed says:

Shaikh al-Islam Ibn Hajar stated in his Sharh of Sahih Bukhari (i.e. Fath al-Bari) that there are variant versions of this narration:

زاد شعيب ويونس ‏”‏ فاستب علي وعباس ‏‏

Shuayb and Yunus added that Ali and Abbas called each other names without mentioning exactly what those names were.

وفي رواية عقيل عن ابن شهاب في الفرائض ‏ اقض بيني وبين هذا الظالم؛

In the version of Uqayl from Ibn Shihab (Zuhri) in “The Shares of Inheritance”, it says: “Decide between me (Abbas) and this unjust one (Ali).”

وفي رواية جويرية ‏”‏ وبين هذا الكاذب الآثم الغادر الخائن ‏”

In the version of Juwariyya, it says: “Between this perfidious, deceitful, wrongdoing liar (Ali).”

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Hajar said regarding this Hadith:

وكأن الزهري كان يحدث به تارة فيصرح،

meaning, the narrator of the Hadith Zuhri would sometimes not mention it (i.e. the phrase “liar, sinful, treacherous, and dishonest”) and sometimes he would.

Thus, there are numerous versions of the Hadith, and the only thing which is absolutely clear is that Ali and Abbas were in disagreement, and so too were they at one point in time in disagreement with Abu Bakr and Umar. The details of these arguments (i.e. what words were used) is an unclear matter.

^^^^

I ASK WHERE IS THE REFERENCE FOR SUCH CLAIMS...SO WE CAN ANALYSES THEM?

page number? Volume? edition? publication date? language Arabic or English?...please could u reply to me with full references so I can read about the claims made on this article...THANK YOU...because it would take too long to actually try find what they are talking about...or actually maybe it may not be how they represent it...otherwise they would have given full references because whenever they quote Hadith its always with reference.

if we just write stuff without referencing then we will just blindly follow everything...it doesn't work like that... i think you need to use better sources SUCH AS THE QURAN TO REFUTE someone much like I have TO REFUTE THE CLAIM OF UMAR BEING THE NEXT PROPHET....

they aint got none, they just twist our hadiths, as you can see!!!!!

how can one Twist a hadith when its inline with the QURAN much like I have done.....please tell me wheres the Logic....I refuted the claim of Umar being a Prophet with Quranic Verses...please explain or give me an example of twisting hadiths...I always use the Quran to back up my answer and never make a judgement the Judgement is their for Allah SWT ...

He who obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allaah [al-Nisa' 4:80]

And whenever you give your word, say the truth [al-An'aam 6:152]....

REMEMBER WHENEVER YOU GIVE YOUR WORD SAY THE TRUTH...by Allah I'm not twisting nothing I'm searching for the Truth because Allah SWT tells us to speak Truth....because one day we will Answer to him and only Him..... remember we must OBEY the messenger....

The article you have given isit really speaking the TRUTH...because if you analyze the article their are many claims which arnt referenced? nor does it ever refer back to the Quran it just used HADITH TO REFUTE HADITH.

Lolz great answer Allahu Akbar may Allah have mercy on you.

You quoted half a Hadith, subhanallah.

The Hadith is too long????? What kind of an answer is that??

THE PEN AND PAPER HADITH I HAVE QUOTED IN FULL SO PLEASE DONT THINK THAT it may be misguiding you UMAR DID GIVE HIS OPINION TOWARDS The PROPHET AND DID THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT HE COMMANDED...

again not trying to hurt anyone's feelings but trying to make this more academical, so we can understand certain historical events..

Bring your evidence forth friend

LOOK ABOVE IN THE MINI article/reply I gave if you open your heart and realize you will ONLY ANSWER TO Allah SWT maybe you can understand such historical events.

OMG no one gave evidence to them in 30 minutes and now we've to suffer. :(

I ASSURE YOU BROTHER YOU HAVE SOME TALENTED ONES AMONGST YOU...we have been oppressed since the first day..however we have never been silent and never shall be silent....patience brother patience the reply will always come...

And seek help in patience and prayer [al-Baqarah 2:45]

=]

Whoever I am his Master (Mawla), Ali is his Master (Mawla). O' God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him."

(1) Sahih Tirmidhi, v2, p298, v5, p63

(2) Sunan Ibn Maja, v1, pp 12,43

OUR MASTER Prophet Mohammed PBUH showed us revelation that patience is the KEY.... Imam Ali and the progeny showed us that patience is the answer to oppression =]

Edited by IgnoranceDiffers4rmLogic

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Now seen as I have answered your Question: I would like to ask you a Question...by all means reply to my previous answer with another question if you have to but I think it is important to understand how much you Value the Quran over the Hadith....then we can engage in a debate...

in the Quran it clearly States:

" It is a glorious Qur’an in a guarded tablet" (85:21).

" Surely we have revealed the Reminder (i.e. the Qur’an) and We will surely be its

guardian" (15:9)"

The above clearly shows that the Quran is guarded by Allah SWT...therefore what is revealed would be complete....and wouldn't be inconsistent for example verses wouldn't be missing..

However in hadith It clearly says the following:

[Narrated 'Aisha] "The verse of the stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed. When the messenger of Allah expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper."

Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal. vol. 6. p. 269;

Sunan Ibn Majah, p. 626;

Ibn Qutbah, Tawil Mukhtalafi 'l-Hadith (Cairo: Maktaba al-Kulliyat al-Azhariyya. 1966) p. 310;

As-Suyuti, ad-Durru 'l-Manthur, vol. 2. p. 13

do you believe this is Saheeh?

...im not even going to comment on it because you might think i'm twisting it...but believing this is trying to suggest Allah SWT cant protect his message from a goat(Forgive me) By Allah Forgive me for even uttering the words.. but I just have to show you that a Book which contradicts the Quran we cannot deem it 100% accurate.

your going to say this has nothing to do with my QUESTION...but it does this is how one can check how much you believe in Hadith's which are in Line with the Quran not on Hadiths which Contradict... and im not trying to hurt your feelings again just showing what is written in your own book make your own judgement Allah is the all knowing all hearing.

Edited by IgnoranceDiffers4rmLogic

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how can one Twist a hadith when its inline with the QURAN much like I have done.....please tell me wheres the Logic....I refuted the claim of Umar being a Prophet with Quranic Verses...please explain or give me an example of twisting hadiths...I always use the Quran to back up my answer and never make a judgement the Judgement is their for Allah SWT ...

He who obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allaah [al-Nisa' 4:80]

And whenever you give your word, say the truth [al-An'aam 6:152]....

REMEMBER WHENEVER YOU GIVE YOUR WORD SAY THE TRUTH...by Allah I'm not twisting nothing I'm searching for the Truth because Allah SWT tells us to speak Truth....because one day we will Answer to him and only Him..... remember we must OBEY the messenger....

`Umar was given the gift of true inspiration which is the characteristic of Allah’s Friends named kashf or "unveiling." The Prophet said: "In the nations long before you were people who were spoken to [by the angels] although they were not prophets. If there is anyone of them in my Community, truly it is `Umar ibn al-Khattab." This narration is elucidated by the two narrations whereby "Allah has engraved truth on the tongue of `Umar and his heart" and "If there were a Prophet after me verily it would be `Umar." Al-Tirmidhi said that according to Ibn `Uyayna "spoken to" (muhaddathûn) means "made to understand" (mufahhamûn), while in his narration Muslim added: "Ibn Wahb explained ‘spoken to’ as ‘inspired’ (mulham)." This is the majority’s opinion according to Ibn Hajar who said: "‘Spoken to’ means ‘by the angels’." Al-Nawawi and Ibn Hajar said respectively in Sharh Sahih Muslim and Fath al-Bari:

of course nabi muhammed sallalahu alaihewasalam is FINAL MESSENGER!!!! we dont deny that,so stop using them ayahs when it doesnt refer to the hadith,that wasan opinion of prophet sallalahu alihewasalam he used to give plenty sahaba ra different names ACCORDINGLY

maybe you will understand a little,now and wont use AYAHS that have nothing to do with this!!!

your quesion:

"My question is if Umar is so Knowledgable and his involved in every single affair with the Muslim Ummah then why doesnt he say:

"we have the Quran and Sunnah or the Quran and Ahlulbayt is enough for us"

is he being "Treacherous and Dishonest" here as THE HADITH IN MUSLIM STATES?

by Allah it is not for me to Judge or Decide..however Allah SWT gave me this wonderfull charactersistic known as logic thinkin how can I follow someone who gives his Own opinion saying the Quran is enough when we all know their are two weighty things..

this suggest hes either being "Treacherous or Dishonest" or his knowledge is not actually what we may have attributed because if he was a WALKING QURAN he would remeber the verse about obidence and would NOT say you are ill..because the Messenger never speaks out of his own desires.."

by using hadith f pen and paper and saying that...............umar ra was "treachorous and a liar" by not saying follow quran and hadith or ahlebait ra, give me a follow through quranic ayah with this too mybrother and not use ayahs on what you percieve in your brain!!

if your that logical post the ayah which states follow quran and ahlebait!!!

and within this hadith tell me my sweet lil brother who also SIDED OR AGREED WITH UMAR RA?

read the hadith without prejudice!!!

here is the hadith brother:

Ibn Abbas reported: When Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) was about to leave this world, there were persons (around him) in his house, Umar ibn al-Khattab being one of them. Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: “Come, I may write for you a document; you would not go astray after that.” Thereupon Umar said: “Verily Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) is deeply afflicted with pain. You have the Quran with you. The Book of Allah is sufficient for us.” Those who were present in the house differed. Some of them said: “Bring him (the writing material) so that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) may write a document for you and you would never go astray after him.” And some among them said what Umar had (already) said. When they indulged in nonsense and began to dispute in the presence of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him), he said: “Get up (and go away)” Ubaidullah said: Ibn Abbas used to say: “There was a heavy loss, indeed a heavy loss, that, due to their dispute and noise, Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) could not write (or dictate) the document for them

so......my brother .....who were the "some" in the hadith? please open your heart!!!

were they ahlebait ra? who agreed with umar ra? which ahlebait ra? who indulged in nonsense? was it ahlebait ra? due to THEIR dispute and noise? who? ahlebait ra too?

you try and portray umar ra in bad light through this hadith? when the hadith doesnt go against umar ra but against ahlebait ra too......just open your heart and mind leave hatred outside the door for a minute and ponder,now you tell me not by being biased, which ahlebait ra agreed and disagreed?

and as for obedience and using verse of not disobeying prophet sallalahu alaihewsalam.........why dont you use that LOGICALLY with the party that agreed with umar ra? why out of hatred use one man? even the hadith goes against your logic and thinking

Edited by Naz_
Unnecessary/insulting comments.

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Five of shias imam named their sons after the name of Abubakr,Umar and Uthman; 1st imam Ali 2nd imam hasan 3rd imam Husain 4th imam zainul abideen 5th imam musa kazim; imam ali named 3 of his sons abubakr, umar and uthman, imam hasan named 2 of his sons abubakr and umar, imam Husain named 2 of his son abubakr and umar, imam zainul abideen named 2 of his sons umar and uthman, imam musa named his sons abubakr and umar.

Bring the evidence that Ali (as) named his children after "Abu Bakr Umar Uthman" Abu Bakr's real name is 'Ateeq - When did Ali (as) name his son Ateeq?

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Okay Thanks for your reply so let me get this straight:

you DO BELIEVE THAT IF THERE WAS A PROPHET AFTER PROPHET MOHAMMED IT WOULD HAVE BEEN UMAR? then if he was so high in his Knowledge and he was undoubtedly as you say from your narrations:

Umar was given the gift of true inspiration which is the characteristic of Allah’s Friends named kashf or "unveiling." The Prophet said: "In the nations long before you were people who were spoken to [by the angels] although they were not prophets. If there is anyone of them in my Community, truly it is `Umar ibn al-Khattab." This narration is elucidated by the two narrations whereby "Allah has engraved truth on the tongue of `Umar and his heart" and "If there were a Prophet after me verily it would be `Umar."

---------------------------------------------------------

your own narration clearly says "If there is anyone of them in my Community, truly it is `Umar ibn al-Khattab."....

remeber you said this from your narration not me.....okay you admit that now Umar Ibn Al Khattab is supreme from the community...

simple question:

Then why is Abu Bakr given power to caliph...and please don't give me another Hadith stating how high Abu Bakr is you have just compared Umar to like a PROPHET

THEN WHY WOULD U GIVE CALIPHATE TO ABU BAKR IF UMAR IBN AL KHATTAB WAS A "KASHF" AND IN THE COMMUNITY HE WAS SO SUPREME...

LOOK you are not looking at it with Logic...it makes no sense even if u believe that Umar was a "Kashf"...then why wasn't he given caliphate SURELY ACCORDING TO THE BOOK "If there is anyone of them in my Community, truly it is `Umar ibn al-Khattab" THEN GIVE THE CALIPHATE TO HIM BECAUSE SURELY IF THE UMMAH KNOWS IF THEIR WOULD BE A PROPHET AFTER MOHAMMED IT WOULD BE UMAR....AT LEAST GIVE HIM THE CALIPHATE ....

I QUOTE THE HADITH SAYING:

`Umar was given the gift of true inspiration which is the characteristic of Allah’s Friends named kashf or "unveiling.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

'Umar: 'God permitted for His Prophet what He willed, and the Qur'an has been revealed in its entirety. So complete the hajj and the 'umra as God has commanded you. But avoid marrying these women, and do not bring before me any man who has married a woman for a specified period, or I will stone him.'

Muslim, al-Sahih, Cairo, 1334/1916, IV, 38 (chapter: al-mut'a bi 'l-hajj wa 'l- 'umra).

BUKHARI

Volume 8, Book 82, Number 816:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

'Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." 'Umar added, "Surely Allah's Apostle carried out the penalty of Rajam, and so did we after him."

^^^

can you see again he saying " i ", " i " " i " " i "

HES IS GIVING HIS OPINION YOU CANT TAKE THE OPINION OF THE CREATION BECAUSE REVELATION IS ONLY WITH PROPHET MOHAMMED...OMAR HAS NO POSITION TO BE GIVING PENALTIES WHICH ARE NOT STATED IN THE QURAN.

----------------------------------------------------------------

My question is:

IF

Umar was given the gift of true inspiration which is the characteristic of Allah’s Friends named kashf or "unveiling.

Then would Allah's freind suggest that Allah swt has not given us the complete Quran....and WOULD Allah'S FREIND SAY THAT HE WILL PUNISH Allah'S CREATION BY STONING...

where is your logic...In actual fact I think you Think UMAR was a prophet....because you always defend him as if one day you will answer him..I dont curse him or anything..Im just showing you how you have to look at hadith with a clear mind...and ayah's...

ARE YOU GOING TO ANSWER TO UMAR OR Allah SWT?

AND IM NOT TWISITING IT ILL SHOW YOU MORE:

"O you who believe! obey Allah and His messenger and do not turn back from Him while you hear" (8:20)

"Whoever obeys the messenger, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them." (4:80)

You are trying to say it was okay for Umar to give his opinion in the Pen and Paper incident....look forget what I say :

why does ibn abbas say "what a thursday it was"

why does ibn abbas say " Allah's Apostle said, "Go away!"

do you seriously not care that our Prophet got upset by the words of Umar and this person is Allah's freind? "kashf"? do you not care that the Prophet said "Go Away"?

I ASK YOU ONE QUESTION AND ONE QUESTION ONLY:

IF PROPHET MOHAMMED TOLD YOU @BLACK NIGHT GO GET ME A PEN AND PAPER WOULD YOU TURN AROUND AND SAY THE QURAN IS ENOUGH

OR WOULD YOU GO GET THE PEN AND PAPER BECAUSE YOU HONOR THE COMMAND OF THE MESSENGER OF Allah SWT?

PLEASE ONLY ANSWER THAT QUESITON I REQUEST YOU

secondly you stil havnt answer the question about the donkey eating the verse:

Also if you respect the AHLULBAYT dont you know about the sunnah written in your own books:

They said: "Do you wonder at Allah's decree? The Mercy of Allah and His Blessings be upon you O people of the house![of Abraham] for He is indeed worthy of all praise full of all glory!" (Quran 11:73)

The Messenger of Allah (s) said, "Do not salute for me in short!" The companions asked, "What is saluting in short?" The Prophet replied, "Saying that Blessing of Allah be upon Muhammad." They asked, "what should we say?" the Prophet (s) answered, "Say: Blessing of Allah be upon Muhammad and his Ahlul-Bayt (Progeny)." In another wordings the Prophet replied: "Say: O Allah bless Muhammad and his household the same way as you blessed Abraham and his household. Verily you are worthy of all praise full of all glory!".

Narrated Ka'b bin Ujra:

It was said, "O Allah's Apostle! We know how to greet you, but how to invoke Allah for you?" The Prophet said, "Say: O Allah! Send your blessings/greetings (Salawat) on Muhammad and his Ahlil bayet (progeny), the same way as You sent Your blessings/greetings on Abraham's family. You are indeed worthy of all praise, full of glory.'"

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 6.320

Narrated Abu Said al-Khudri:

We said, "O Allah's Apostle! (We know) this greeting (to you) but how shall we invoke Allah for you?" He said, "Say: O Allah! Send your greetings on Muhammad who is Your servant and Your Messenger, the same way as You sent Your greetings on Abraham's family. And send Your blessings on Muhammad and on Muhammad's family, the same way as You sent Your blessings on Abraham's family."

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 6.321

Narrated Ibn Abi Hazim and Ad-Darawardi:

Yazid reported (similarly with the following wordings) "...And send Your blessings on Muhammad and on Muhammad's family, the same way as You sent Your blessings on Abraham and on Abraham's family."

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 6.322

SO WHEN U PRAISED THE PROPHET PRAISE HIS FAMILY:

WHEN U SAID ABOVE

"muhammed sallalahu alaihewasalam"

YOUR SAYING THE ARABIC YET SAY...wa alle...just a note because I think you didnt know that hadith =] dw its common they wouldnt have shown you that.

are you going to tell me im twisting again or the ayahs out of context....use your logic is so simple...if you stop thinking you will anwer to these people.

PLEASE ANSWER ME THE QUESTION ABOUT THE PEN AND PAPER WHAT WOULD YOU DO? LOOK ABOVE FOR THE QUESITON I ASKED YOU A PERSONAL QUESTION...

Edited by IgnoranceDiffers4rmLogic

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Bring the evidence that Ali (as) named his children after "Abu Bakr Umar Uthman" Abu Bakr's real name is 'Ateeq - When did Ali (as) name his son Ateeq?

(salam)

Brother, are you sure Abu Bakr's real name is `Ateeq? I've have somewhere that his name is `Abdullah Ibn `Uthman.

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I GAVE YOU HADITH.....from AHLUS SUNNAH SAYING:

Zaid bin Arqam narrated that Muhammed said: "Indeed, I am leaving among you, that which if you hold fast to them, you shall not be misguided after me. One of then is greater than the other: (First is) The book of God is a rope extended from the sky to the earth, and (the second is) my family, the people of my house (ahlul bait), and they shall not split until they meet me at the hawd, so look at how you deal with them after me." (Sahih).

YOU SHALLL NEVER BE MISGUIDED...READ IT FOR YOURSELF..YOU CANT JUST PICK HADITHS THAT YOU LIKE AND FORGET ABOUT SOME..FOR EXAMPLE..U PICK THE HAIDTH ABOUT UMAR BEING A PROPHET YET YOU FORGET ABOUT THE ONE WHERE ITS STATED "YOU SHALL NEVER GO ASTRAY"

"QURAN" && "AHLUL BAYT"

BY Allah I DIDN'T EVEN WANT TO GET INTO THIS...BUT THE IGNORANCE DISPLAYED DEFIES THE RULES OF LOGIC..YOU BELIEVE THAT A PERSON IS Allah'S FRIEND YET HIS WORDS MAKE Allah'S APOSTLE SAY "GO AWAY" AND CAUSES DIS UNITY AMONGST THE UMMAH...

"It was very unfortunate that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise."

BY Allah IT DEFIES ALL THE RULES OF LOGIC...ANY SENSIBLE MAN WILL JUST ADMIT UMAR WAS WRONG...

I HAVE LIMITED POSTS SO IF I STOP POSTING ITS BECAUSE OF MY RESTRICTION SORRY =]..I DONT WANT YOU TO THINK I RAN AWAY ETC...

"This restriction is in place until 07 April 2013 - 10:57 PM"

Edited by IgnoranceDiffers4rmLogic

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Okay Thanks for your reply so let me get this straight:

you DO BELIEVE THAT IF THERE WAS A PROPHET AFTER PROPHET MOHAMMED IT WOULD HAVE BEEN UMAR? then if he was so high in his Knowledge and he was undoubtedly as you say from your narrations:

Umar was given the gift of true inspiration which is the characteristic of Allah’s Friends named kashf or "unveiling." The Prophet said: "In the nations long before you were people who were spoken to [by the angels] although they were not prophets. If there is anyone of them in my Community, truly it is `Umar ibn al-Khattab." This narration is elucidated by the two narrations whereby "Allah has engraved truth on the tongue of `Umar and his heart" and "If there were a Prophet after me verily it would be `Umar."

---------------------------------------------------------

your own narration clearly says "If there is anyone of them in my Community, truly it is `Umar ibn al-Khattab."....

remeber you said this from your narration not me.....okay you admit that now Umar Ibn Al Khattab is supreme from the community...

simple question:

Then why is Abu Bakr given power to caliph...and please don't give me another Hadith stating how high Abu Bakr is you have just compared Umar to like a PROPHET

THEN WHY WOULD U GIVE CALIPHATE TO ABU BAKR IF UMAR IBN AL KHATTAB WAS A "KASHF" AND IN THE COMMUNITY HE WAS SO SUPREME...

LOOK you are not looking at it with Logic...it makes no sense even if u believe that Umar was a "Kashf"...then why wasn't he given caliphate SURELY ACCORDING TO THE BOOK "If there is anyone of them in my Community, truly it is `Umar ibn al-Khattab" THEN GIVE THE CALIPHATE TO HIM BECAUSE SURELY IF THE UMMAH KNOWS IF THEIR WOULD BE A PROPHET AFTER MOHAMMED IT WOULD BE UMAR....AT LEAST GIVE HIM THE CALIPHATE ....

I QUOTE THE HADITH SAYING:

`Umar was given the gift of true inspiration which is the characteristic of Allah’s Friends named kashf or "unveiling.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

'Umar: 'God permitted for His Prophet what He willed, and the Qur'an has been revealed in its entirety. So complete the hajj and the 'umra as God has commanded you. But avoid marrying these women, and do not bring before me any man who has married a woman for a specified period, or I will stone him.'

Muslim, al-Sahih, Cairo, 1334/1916, IV, 38 (chapter: al-mut'a bi 'l-hajj wa 'l- 'umra).

BUKHARI

Volume 8, Book 82, Number 816:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

'Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." 'Umar added, "Surely Allah's Apostle carried out the penalty of Rajam, and so did we after him."

^^^

can you see again he saying " i ", " i " " i " " i "

HES IS GIVING HIS OPINION YOU CANT TAKE THE OPINION OF THE CREATION BECAUSE REVELATION IS ONLY WITH PROPHET MOHAMMED...OMAR HAS NO POSITION TO BE GIVING PENALTIES WHICH ARE NOT STATED IN THE QURAN.

----------------------------------------------------------------

My question is:

IF

Umar was given the gift of true inspiration which is the characteristic of Allah’s Friends named kashf or "unveiling.

Then would Allah's freind suggest that Allah swt has not given us the complete Quran....and WOULD Allah'S FREIND SAY THAT HE WILL PUNISH Allah'S CREATION BY STONING...

where is your logic...In actual fact I think you Think UMAR was a prophet....because you always defend him as if one day you will answer him..I dont curse him or anything..Im just showing you how you have to look at hadith with a clear mind...and ayah's...

ARE YOU GOING TO ANSWER TO UMAR OR Allah SWT?

AND IM NOT TWISITING IT ILL SHOW YOU MORE:

"O you who believe! obey Allah and His messenger and do not turn back from Him while you hear" (8:20)

"Whoever obeys the messenger, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them." (4:80)

You are trying to say it was okay for Umar to give his opinion in the Pen and Paper incident....look forget what I say :

why does ibn abbas say "what a thursday it was"

why does ibn abbas say " Allah's Apostle said, "Go away!"

do you seriously not care that our Prophet got upset by the words of Umar and this person is Allah's freind? "kashf"? do you not care that the Prophet said "Go Away"?

I ASK YOU ONE QUESTION AND ONE QUESTION ONLY:

IF PROPHET MOHAMMED TOLD YOU @BLACK NIGHT GO GET ME A PEN AND PAPER WOULD YOU TURN AROUND AND SAY THE QURAN IS ENOUGH

OR WOULD YOU GO GET THE PEN AND PAPER BECAUSE YOU HONOR THE COMMAND OF THE MESSENGER OF Allah SWT?

PLEASE ONLY ANSWER THAT QUESITON I REQUEST YOU

secondly you stil havnt answer the question about the donkey eating the verse:

Also if you respect the AHLULBAYT dont you know about the sunnah written in your own books:

They said: "Do you wonder at Allah's decree? The Mercy of Allah and His Blessings be upon you O people of the house![of Abraham] for He is indeed worthy of all praise full of all glory!" (Quran 11:73)

The Messenger of Allah (s) said, "Do not salute for me in short!" The companions asked, "What is saluting in short?" The Prophet replied, "Saying that Blessing of Allah be upon Muhammad." They asked, "what should we say?" the Prophet (s) answered, "Say: Blessing of Allah be upon Muhammad and his Ahlul-Bayt (Progeny)." In another wordings the Prophet replied: "Say: O Allah bless Muhammad and his household the same way as you blessed Abraham and his household. Verily you are worthy of all praise full of all glory!".

Narrated Ka'b bin Ujra:

It was said, "O Allah's Apostle! We know how to greet you, but how to invoke Allah for you?" The Prophet said, "Say: O Allah! Send your blessings/greetings (Salawat) on Muhammad and his Ahlil bayet (progeny), the same way as You sent Your blessings/greetings on Abraham's family. You are indeed worthy of all praise, full of glory.'"

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 6.320

Narrated Abu Said al-Khudri:

We said, "O Allah's Apostle! (We know) this greeting (to you) but how shall we invoke Allah for you?" He said, "Say: O Allah! Send your greetings on Muhammad who is Your servant and Your Messenger, the same way as You sent Your greetings on Abraham's family. And send Your blessings on Muhammad and on Muhammad's family, the same way as You sent Your blessings on Abraham's family."

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 6.321

Narrated Ibn Abi Hazim and Ad-Darawardi:

Yazid reported (similarly with the following wordings) "...And send Your blessings on Muhammad and on Muhammad's family, the same way as You sent Your blessings on Abraham and on Abraham's family."

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 6.322

SO WHEN U PRAISED THE PROPHET PRAISE HIS FAMILY:

WHEN U SAID ABOVE

"muhammed sallalahu alaihewasalam"

YOUR SAYING THE ARABIC YET SAY...wa alle...just a note because I think you didnt know that hadith =] dw its common they wouldnt have shown you that.

are you going to tell me im twisting again or the ayahs out of context....use your logic is so simple...if you stop thinking you will anwer to these people.

PLEASE ANSWER ME THE QUESTION ABOUT THE PEN AND PAPER WHAT WOULD YOU DO? LOOK ABOVE FOR THE QUESITON I ASKED YOU A PERSONAL QUESTION...

lol you see this is what i get......i answered you and now.....you ask diff questions? lol and YOU THINK I BELIEVE UMAR RA IS PROPHET? hahahahaha you.......see..... and your only proof is.....this hadith!!! lol yes completely twisting out of context ,because he sallalahu alaihewasalam said IF and not, IS, its in "PRAISE" it was said.

and then you apply a completely diff ayah that has nothing to do with the hadith trying to equate the two,lol

"O you who believe! obey Allah and His messenger and do not turn back from Him while you hear" (8:20)

"Whoever obeys the messenger, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them." (4:80)

s0...., how does that hadith in praise of umar ra CORRESPOND with the above ayah? did umar ra disbelieve? read....the above ....ayah and read the hadith......repeat it if you have to..........you said it and now you tell me how the two relate?

THE MAIN POINT IS........... UMAR RA ACHIEVED IN ISLAMIC HISTORY WHAT NO IMAM EVER DID,WHY IS THAT?

even though they were getting DIVINELY inspired!!!

GO AHEAD AND EXPLAIN

I GAVE YOU HADITH.....from AHLUS SUNNAH SAYING:

Zaid bin Arqam narrated that Muhammed said: "Indeed, I am leaving among you, that which if you hold fast to them, you shall not be misguided after me. One of then is greater than the other: (First is) The book of God is a rope extended from the sky to the earth, and (the second is) my family, the people of my house (ahlul bait), and they shall not split until they meet me at the hawd, so look at how you deal with them after me." (Sahih).

YOU SHALLL NEVER BE MISGUIDED...READ IT FOR YOURSELF..YOU CANT JUST PICK HADITHS THAT YOU LIKE AND FORGET ABOUT SOME..FOR EXAMPLE..U PICK THE HAIDTH ABOUT UMAR BEING A PROPHET YET YOU FORGET ABOUT THE ONE WHERE ITS STATED "YOU SHALL NEVER GO ASTRAY"

"QURAN" && "AHLUL BAYT"

BY Allah I DIDN'T EVEN WANT TO GET INTO THIS...BUT THE IGNORANCE DISPLAYED DEFIES THE RULES OF LOGIC..YOU BELIEVE THAT A PERSON IS Allah'S FRIEND YET HIS WORDS MAKE Allah'S APOSTLE SAY "GO AWAY" AND CAUSES DIS UNITY AMONGST THE UMMAH...

"It was very unfortunate that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise."

BY Allah IT DEFIES ALL THE RULES OF LOGIC...ANY SENSIBLE MAN WILL JUST ADMIT UMAR WAS WRONG...

I HAVE LIMITED POSTS SO IF I STOP POSTING ITS BECAUSE OF MY RESTRICTION SORRY =]..I DONT WANT YOU TO THINK I RAN AWAY ETC...

"This restriction is in place until 07 April 2013 - 10:57 PM"

brother we have hadiths stating follow quran and sunnah too........so....who is picking and choosing?

and no i swear by Allah SWT that i will never ADMIT UMAR ALFARUKH RA IS WRONG.....WITHOUT VALID PROOFS FROM QURAN AND HADITHS!!!!

I dont follow blindly brother.....use logic and common sense,the greatest achievements were made under his rule!!!

that evidence is enough for you my friend .

Edited by Naz_
Insulting comments.

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(salam)

Brother, are you sure Abu Bakr's real name is `Ateeq? I've have somewhere that his name is `Abdullah Ibn `Uthman.

Yes, that's true :) some have said his name is 'Abdullah' other have said 'Ateeq' - Imam Nawawi said: 'Ateeq'

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Lol blacknight writes his English like that on this website only so it's harder for the reader to refute him because he isn't making any sense. That's how you know when your ignorant....

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you are twistin my brother:

`Umar was given the gift of true inspiration which is the characteristic of Allah’s Friends named kashf or "unveiling." The Prophet said: "In the nations long before you were people who were spoken to [by the angels] although they were not prophets. If there is anyone of them in my Community, truly it is `Umar ibn al-Khattab." This narration is elucidated by the two narrations whereby "Allah has engraved truth on the tongue of `Umar and his heart" and "If there were a Prophet after me verily it would be `Umar." Al-Tirmidhi said that according to Ibn `Uyayna "spoken to" (muhaddathûn) means "made to understand" (mufahhamûn), while in his narration Muslim added: "Ibn Wahb explained ‘spoken to’ as ‘inspired’ (mulham)." This is the majority’s opinion according to Ibn Hajar who said: "‘Spoken to’ means ‘by the angels’." Al-Nawawi and Ibn Hajar said respectively in Sharh Sahih Muslim and Fath al-Bari:

of course nabi muhammed sallalahu alaihewasalam is FINAL MESSENGER!!!! we dont deny that,so stop using them ayahs when it doesnt refer to the hadith,that wasan opinion of prophet sallalahu alihewasalam he used to give plenty sahaba ra different names ACCORDINGLY

maybe you will understand a little,now and wont use AYAHS that have nothing to do with this!!!

your twisted quesion:

"My question is if Umar is so Knowledgable and his involved in every single affair with the Muslim Ummah then why doesnt he say:

"we have the Quran and Sunnah or the Quran and Ahlulbayt is enough for us"

is he being "Treacherous and Dishonest" here as THE HADITH IN MUSLIM STATES?

by Allah it is not for me to Judge or Decide..however Allah SWT gave me this wonderfull charactersistic known as logic thinkin how can I follow someone who gives his Own opinion saying the Quran is enough when we all know their are two weighty things..

this suggest hes either being "Treacherous or Dishonest" or his knowledge is not actually what we may have attributed because if he was a WALKING QURAN he would remeber the verse about obidence and would NOT say you are ill..because the Messenger never speaks out of his own desires.."

twisting it to your understanding and beliefs.

by using hadith f pen and paper and saying that...............umar ra was "treachorous and a liar" by not saying follow quran and hadith or ahlebait ra, give me a follow through quranic ayah with this too mybrother and not use ayahs on what you percieve in your infamous knowledgable brain!!

if your that logical post the ayah which states follow quran and ahlebait!!!

and within this hadith tell me my sweet lil brother who also SIDED OR AGREED WITH UMAR RA?

like i said DONT TWIST THEM TO YOUR UNDERSTANDING read the hadith without prejudice!!!

here is the hadith brother:

Ibn Abbas reported: When Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) was about to leave this world, there were persons (around him) in his house, Umar ibn al-Khattab being one of them. Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: “Come, I may write for you a document; you would not go astray after that.” Thereupon Umar said: “Verily Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) is deeply afflicted with pain. You have the Quran with you. The Book of Allah is sufficient for us.” Those who were present in the house differed. Some of them said: “Bring him (the writing material) so that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) may write a document for you and you would never go astray after him.” And some among them said what Umar had (already) said. When they indulged in nonsense and began to dispute in the presence of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him), he said: “Get up (and go away)” Ubaidullah said: Ibn Abbas used to say: “There was a heavy loss, indeed a heavy loss, that, due to their dispute and noise, Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) could not write (or dictate) the document for them

so......my brother .....who were the "some" in the hadith? please open your heart!!!

were they ahlebait ra? who agreed with umar ra? which ahlebait ra? who indulged in nonsense? was it ahlebait ra? due to THEIR dispute and noise? who? ahlebait ra too?

you try and portray umar ra in bad light through this hadith? when the hadith doesnt go against umar ra but against ahlebait ra too......just open your heart and mind leave hatred outside the door for a minute and ponder,now you tell me not by being biased or twisting it which ahlebait ra agreed and disagreed?

and as for obedience and using verse of not disobeying prophet sallalahu alaihewsalam.........why dont you use that LOGICALLY with the party that agreed with umar ra? why out of hatred use one man? even the hadith goes against your logic and thinking

^^^ facepalm

Hold on.....had to go do sujood and thank Allah (SWT) for giving me the ability to think logically.

I am only going to reply to the last hadith you provided and let my brothers handle the other illogical arguments you brought forth.

Lets use logic only.

“Come, I may write for you a document; you would not go astray after that.” Thereupon Umar said: “Verily Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) is deeply afflicted with pain. You have the Quran with you. The Book of Allah is sufficient for us.”

Meaning: Umar denied the pen and paper, saying the Quran is sufficient for them.

"Those who were present in the house differed. Some of them said: “Bring him (the writing material) so that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) may write a document for you and you would never go astray after him.”

Meaning: There were two parties, one in favor of the writing of the will and the other which sided with umar (denying pen and paper).

"And some among them said what Umar had (already) said."

Meaning: This is the party that sided with umar. No where does it say it was the Ahlul-Bayt (A.S.) that sided with umar. For you to assert that is illogical. I can turn around and say that the party that was against the opinion of umar was the Ahlul-Bayt (A.S.).....now how will you argue against this. The hadith you provided does not even mention the Ahlul-Bayt (A.S.), let alone say who they sided with. Note: I am not saying the Ahlul-Bayt (A.S.) were not present. I am just saying that they are not even mentioned. Umar is the only one mentioned by NAME, so all of this falls on him. For you to bring up the Ahlul-Bayt (A.S.) is mind boggling.

When they indulged in nonsense and began to dispute in the presence of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him), he said: “Get up (and go away)”

Meaning: These two parties started to argue with each other and RasoolAllah (SAWW) told them to leave.

Ubaidullah said: Ibn Abbas used to say: “There was a heavy loss, indeed a heavy loss, that, due to their dispute and noise, Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) could not write (or dictate) the document for them

Meaning: RasoolAllah (SAWW) was unable to write his will because of an argument among the people present, which was a "heavy loss." umar told RasoolAllah (SAWW) that they did not need his will, the other party said they did, there was a quarrel, and RasoolAllah (SAWW) said "Get up (and go away)." umar preventing RasoolAllah (SAWW) from writing his will was the "heavy loss" for the ummah. Do you not wonder what was it that RasoolAllah (SAWW) wanted to write? If the LAST PROPHET (SAWW) was about to pass away and asked for a pen and a paper, WHAT WOULD YOU DO? You have been dodging that question.

I broke down that hadith. For you to bring up the Ahlul-Bayt (A.S.), and imply that based on this hadith they sided with umar is a disgrace to your own sect. You may try to argue that the Ahlul-Bayt (A.S.) were involved in the argument (whether they sided with umar or not) which lead to RasoolAllah (SAWW) telling them to leave.....therfore it was partly Ahlul-Bayt's (A.S.) fault. Well my answer is this: The hadith does not even mention the Ahlul-Bayt (A.S.)(whether they were present or not is not the issue), the other party may as well be the sahabas who did not agree with umar's view of denying RasoolAllah (SAWW) the pen and paper. In the end, the hadith clearly states that umar felt the Quran was "sufficient," denying him the pen and paper, which started the argument.

If umar said the Quran is sufficient for us then he must have been well versed in It, wouldn't you say?

How come he forgot the following ayats when he denied what RasoolAllah (SAWW) asked for (pen and paper):

"O you who believe! obey Allah and His messenger and do not turn back from Him while you hear" (8:20)

"Whoever obeys the messenger, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them." (4:80)

Why did he not obey?

This is all based off of logic. Anyone looking at this hadith from an unbiased mind will come to the same conclusion.

So, what would you have done if RasoolAllah (SAWW) had asked you for a pen and paper?

Edited by Naz_

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THE MAIN POINT IS........... UMAR RA ACHIEVED IN ISLAMIC HISTORY WHAT NO IMAM EVER DID,WHY IS THAT?

lol^^^^ THAT IS WHAT YOU SAID NOT ME.....

HE ACHIEVED WHAT NO IMAM EVER DID in islamic history?

WHO WAS THE MASTER OF BADAR, UHAD, KHAYBAR

ALI...

WHO DID PROPHET MOHAMMED PBUH GIVE THE BANNER TOO?

ALI....

WHO SLEPT IN THE BED WHEN THEY WANTED TO ASSASSINATE THE PROPHET PBUH&HF?

ALI...

WHO IS LIKE HAROON WAS TO MOSES TO PROPHET MOHAMMED PBUH&HF?

ALI...

WHO HAS BEEN PURIFIED BY Allah SWT WHEN HE SAID IN 33:33

"And abide in your houses and do not display yourselves as [was] the display of the former times of ignorance. And establish prayer and give zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification."

ALI...FATIMAH...HASSAN...HUSSAIN

THE FACT IS IMAM ALI, HASSAN, HUSSAIN WERE PURIFIED BY Allah SWT AND IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE A NON MUSLIM AS YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE QURAN if ur refute this

AND STILL U DONT LEARN FROM YOUR OWN BOOKS

Narrated Ka'b bin Ujra:

It was said, "O Allah's Apostle! We know how to greet you, but how to invoke Allah for you?" The Prophet said, "Say: O Allah! Send your blessings/greetings (Salawat) on Muhammad and his Ahlil bayet (progeny), the same way as You sent Your blessings/greetings on Abraham's family. You are indeed worthy of all praise, full of glory.'"

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 6.320

AND ONCE AGAIN I ASK YOU

IF PROPHET MOHAMMED TOLD YOU @BLACK NIGHT GO GET ME A PEN AND PAPER WOULD YOU TURN AROUND AND SAY THE QURAN IS ENOUGH?

OR WOULD YOU GO GET THE PEN AND PAPER BECAUSE YOU HONOR THE COMMAND OF THE MESSENGER OF Allah SWT?

your brave when asking us questions now answer the question above...WHY ARE YOU SO AFRAID?...

"BROTHER WE HAVE HADITHS on quran and sunnah"....ARE YOU ACTUALLY SERIOUS THEY ARE WEAK YOUR OWN SCHOLARS admit it...WATCH THIS AND THEN COME TALK TO ME...

THIS IS A LECTURE FROM AHLUS SUNNAH about the weakness of the hadith which states "QURAN & SUNNAH" HE EXPLAINS THE WEAKNESS AND THE AUTHENTIC TRADITION...PLEASE WATCH IT ITS A SCHOLAR FROM AHLUS SUNNAH.

AND ONCE AGAIN I ASK YOU

IF PROPHET MOHAMMED TOLD YOU @BLACK NIGHT GO GET ME A PEN AND PAPER WOULD YOU TURN AROUND AND SAY THE QURAN IS ENOUGH?

OR WOULD YOU GO GET THE PEN AND PAPER BECAUSE YOU HONOR THE COMMAND OF THE MESSENGER OF Allah SWT?

simple just say

I would run and go get it.

or

I would tell him no the Quran is enough for us.

Edited by Naz_

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WITH PATIENCE WE WAIT TO KNOW BLACK NIGHTS ANSWER TO THE FOLLOWING QUESTION:

IF PROPHET MOHAMMED TOLD YOU @BLACK NIGHT GO GET ME A PEN AND PAPER WOULD YOU TURN AROUND AND SAY THE QURAN IS ENOUGH?

OR WOULD YOU GO GET THE PEN AND PAPER BECAUSE YOU HONOR THE COMMAND OF THE MESSENGER OF Allah SWT?

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^Plus Umar who claimed the Quran was enough for him during the calamity of thrusday said in later life "if Ali (as) has not been there Umar would have been ruined". Obviously the Quran want enough for him and he had to rely on Ali (as) despite his haughty boast before the prophet.

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Lol blacknight writes his English like that on this website only so it's harder for the reader to refute him because he isn't making any sense. That's how you know when your ignorant....

Or maybe you cant understand English, investing in a dictionary would be a great idea

WITH PATIENCE WE WAIT TO KNOW BLACK NIGHTS ANSWER TO THE FOLLOWING QUESTION:

IF PROPHET MOHAMMED TOLD YOU @BLACK NIGHT GO GET ME A PEN AND PAPER WOULD YOU TURN AROUND AND SAY THE QURAN IS ENOUGH?

OR WOULD YOU GO GET THE PEN AND PAPER BECAUSE YOU HONOR THE COMMAND OF THE MESSENGER OF Allah SWT?

IF HE WAS NOT WELL I WOULD SAY LEAVE THE PROPHET AND LET HIM REST THE QURAN IS ENOUGH. IM SURE IF IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT ONE WAY OR ANOTHER Allah WILL MAKE SURE PROPHETS MESSAGE IS TOLD.

Now my questions to you

1. Just what exactly do you think prophet wanted to write down

2. Prophet wasn't able to tell companions what he wanted to say, so you're indirectly saying prophet left world without completing his mission? Yes, no?

3. If it was so "important" he lived for three days after that why didn't he dictate this "important" message to Ali Abbas or other members of

Ahle bayt

4. If your answer is he wanted to tell companions of Ali leadership then according to Shia interpretation of ghadir khumm he already did at ghadir in front of "thousands" so why the big fuss.

5. We believe deen was completed by prophet.

You're saying prophet left world without being able to write down "important" message, so you're saying prophets and allahs mission was incomplete because of a few companions. Yes, no?

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Bring the evidence that Ali (as) named his children after "Abu Bakr Umar Uthman" Abu

Bakr's real name is 'Ateeq - When did Ali (as) name his son Ateeq?

Bring your evidence that he never!!

Which person names his children after his "worst enemies" and the "murderer" of his wife.

Ask yourself honestly would you??

Let's go with what you say and ahle bayt were the ones who wanted to know what prophet wanted to write down.

THEN THE PROPHET MUST HAVE TOLD AHLE BAYT AFTER BECAUSE HE LIVED FOR THREE DAYS AFTER THAT.

PLEASE TELL ME WHAT PROPHET WANTED TO WRITE DOWN

^^^ facepalm

Hold on.....had to go do sujood and thank Allah (SWT) for giving me the ability to think logically.

I am only going to reply to the last hadith you provided and let my brothers handle the other illogical arguments you brought forth.

Lets use logic only.

“Come, I may write for you a document; you would not go astray after that.” Thereupon Umar said: “Verily Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) is deeply afflicted with pain. You have the Quran with you. The Book of Allah is sufficient for us.”

Meaning: Umar denied the pen and paper, saying the Quran is sufficient for them.

"Those who were present in the house differed. Some of them said: “Bring him (the writing material) so that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) may write a document for you and you would never go astray after him.”

Meaning: There were two parties, one in favor of the writing of the will and the other which sided with umar (denying pen and paper).

"And some among them said what Umar had (already) said."

Meaning: This is the party that sided with umar. No where does it say it was the Ahlul-Bayt (A.S.) that sided with umar. For you to assert that is illogical. I can turn around and say that the party that was against the opinion of umar was the Ahlul-Bayt (A.S.).....now how will you argue against this. The hadith you provided does not even mention the Ahlul-Bayt (A.S.), let alone say who they sided with. Note: I am not saying the Ahlul-Bayt (A.S.) were not present. I am just saying that they are not even mentioned. Umar is the only one mentioned by NAME, so all of this falls on him. For you to bring up the Ahlul-Bayt (A.S.) is mind boggling.

When they indulged in nonsense and began to dispute in the presence of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him), he said: “Get up (and go away)”

Meaning: These two parties started to argue with each other and RasoolAllah (SAWW) told them to leave.

Ubaidullah said: Ibn Abbas used to say: “There was a heavy loss, indeed a heavy loss, that, due to their dispute and noise, Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) could not write (or dictate) the document for them

Meaning: RasoolAllah (SAWW) was unable to write his will because of an argument among the people present, which was a "heavy loss." umar told RasoolAllah (SAWW) that they did not need his will, the other party said they did, there was a quarrel, and RasoolAllah (SAWW) said "Get up (and go away)." umar preventing RasoolAllah (SAWW) from writing his will was the "heavy loss" for the ummah. Do you not wonder what was it that RasoolAllah (SAWW) wanted to write? If the LAST PROPHET (SAWW) was about to pass away and asked for a pen and a paper, WHAT WOULD YOU DO? You have been dodging that question.

I broke down that hadith like I would have done for a child. For you to bring up the Ahlul-Bayt (A.S.), and imply that based on this hadith they sided with umar is a disgrace to your own sect. You may try to argue that the Ahlul-Bayt (A.S.) were involved in the argument (whether they sided with umar or not) which lead to RasoolAllah (SAWW) telling them to leave.....therfore it was partly Ahlul-Bayt's (A.S.) fault. Well my answer is this: The hadith does not even mention the Ahlul-Bayt (A.S.)(whether they were present or not is not the issue), the other party may as well be the sahabas who did not agree with umar's view of denying RasoolAllah (SAWW) the pen and paper. In the end, the hadith clearly states that umar felt the Quran was "sufficient," denying him the pen and paper, which started the argument.

If umar said the Quran is sufficient for us then he must have been well versed in It, wouldn't you say?

How come he forgot the following ayats when he denied what RasoolAllah (SAWW) asked for (pen and paper):

"O you who believe! obey Allah and His messenger and do not turn back from Him while you hear" (8:20)

"Whoever obeys the messenger, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them." (4:80)

Why did he not obey?

This is all based off of logic. Anyone looking at this hadith from an unbiased mind will come to the same conclusion.

So, what would you have done if RasoolAllah (SAWW) had asked you for a pen and paper?

THE INFALLIABLES

Let's go with what you say and ahle bayt were the ones who wanted to know what prophet wanted to write down.

THEN THE PROPHET MUST HAVE TOLD AHLE BAYT AFTER BECAUSE HE LIVED FOR THREE DAYS AFTER THAT.

PLEASE TELL ME WHAT PROPHET WANTED TO WRITE DOWN

Edited by Naz_

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Bring your evidence that he never!!

Which names his children after his "worst enemies" and the "murderer" of his wife.

Ask yourself honestly would you??

It is you whom make assumption so burden of proof lies on you.

Did Ali (as) tell you that he named his sons after your Caliphs? If you have evidence then bring them :)

Edited by Naz_

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Or maybe you cant understand English, investing in a dictionary would be a great idea

IF HE WAS NOT WELL I WOULD SAY LEAVE THE PROPHET AND LET HIM REST THE QURAN IS ENOUGH. IM SURE IF IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT ONE WAY OR ANOTHER Allah WILL MAKE SURE PROPHETS MESSAGE IS TOLD.

Now my questions to you

1. Just what exactly do you think prophet wanted to write down

2. Prophet wasn't able to tell companions what he wanted to say, so you're indirectly saying prophet left world without completing his mission? Yes, no?

3. If it was so "important" he lived for three days after that why didn't he dictate this "important" message to Ali Abbas or other members of

Ahle bayt

4. If your answer is he wanted to tell companions of Ali leadership then according to Shia interpretation of ghadir khumm he already did at ghadir in front of "thousands" so why the big fuss.

5. We believe deen was completed by prophet.

You're saying prophet left world without being able to write down "important" message, so you're saying prophets and allahs mission was incomplete because of a few companions. Yes, no?

BECAUSE THE PROPHET ASKED FOR IT!!! No one was nagging him to write something down. It was RasoolAllah's(SAWW) request, which was denied by umar. There was no argument before umar denied the writing materials.

Bring your evidence that he never!!

Which lunatic names his children after his "worst enemies" and the "murderer" of his wife.

Ask yourself honestly would you??

THE INFALLIABLES

Let's go with what you say and ahle bayt were the ones who wanted to know what prophet wanted to write down.

THEN THE PROPHET MUST HAVE TOLD AHLE BAYT AFTER BECAUSE HE LIVED FOR THREE DAYS AFTER THAT.

PLEASE TELL ME WHAT PROPHET WANTED TO WRITE DOWN

Same thing that He (SAWW) said at Ghadir Khumm. Writing it in His (SAWW) will would further prove the rightful succession of Imam Ali ibne Abu Talib (A.S.).

When the Prophet passed away, all these "sahabas" ran to saqifa and decided who would become the leader, instead of performing the burial rights of the Prophet (SAWW) who they were, supposedly, so close to. The proof is in your own books.

Deen is complete. Imamate is there to protect it. Just look at the innovations your caliphate system brought. Caliphate in itself is an innovation. The first one, abu bakr, is voted by a select few, which does not include the Ahlul-Bayt (A.S.). The second one, umar, is selected only by abu bakr. The third one is selected by a small group of people, with one of them having the power to veto. The fourth one, Imam Ali (A.S.), the rightful successor is finally forced to accept the Caliphate by the people because they were tired of all the innovations and injustice.

Every Prophet has left successors. Do you think the last one would just leave the religion up to the people?

You guys are the one bringing these so called facts, regarding the naming of children. Logic, which you people greatly lack, dictates you bring the references to back up your statements. I can say that umar abu bakr and uthman were jews and that they never converted, are you going to just believe me or are you going to ask for references? You guys are used to accepting things blindly. We ask for references.

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It is you whom make assumption so burden of proof lies on you.

Did Ali (as) tell you that he named his sons after your Pagan Caliphs? If you have evidence then bring them :)

Show some respect and don't insult our caliphs, I never insulted your sect in any way or form.

Anyway it's no secret that imams named their children after those that they loved eg; jafar hasan hussain Abbas and names like them.

So I can now turn the tables and ask you to prove to me they named them after their beloved uncles,with references.

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Show some respect and don't insult our caliphs, I never insulted your sect in any way or form.

Anyway it's no secret that imams named their children after those that they loved eg; jafar hasan hussain Abbas and names like them.

So I can now turn the tables and ask you to prove to me they named them after their beloved uncles,with references.

you dont need proof to prove that lol. Its simple. your family names you after your older family members, best friends, quranic terms, islamic names...remember they were from the prophets flesh.

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^^^ facepalm

Hold on.....had to go do sujood and thank Allah (SWT) for giving me the ability to think logically.

I am only going to reply to the last hadith you provided and let my brothers handle the other illogical arguments you brought forth.

Lets use logic only.

“Come, I may write for you a document; you would not go astray after that.” Thereupon Umar said: “Verily Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) is deeply afflicted with pain. You have the Quran with you. The Book of Allah is sufficient for us.”

Meaning: Umar denied the pen and paper, saying the Quran is sufficient for them.

"Those who were present in the house differed. Some of them said: “Bring him (the writing material) so that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) may write a document for you and you would never go astray after him.”

Meaning: There were two parties, one in favor of the writing of the will and the other which sided with umar (denying pen and paper).

"And some among them said what Umar had (already) said."

Meaning: This is the party that sided with umar. No where does it say it was the Ahlul-Bayt (A.S.) that sided with umar. For you to assert that is illogical. I can turn around and say that the party that was against the opinion of umar was the Ahlul-Bayt (A.S.).....now how will you argue against this. The hadith you provided does not even mention the Ahlul-Bayt (A.S.), let alone say who they sided with. Note: I am not saying the Ahlul-Bayt (A.S.) were not present. I am just saying that they are not even mentioned. Umar is the only one mentioned by NAME, so all of this falls on him. For you to bring up the Ahlul-Bayt (A.S.) is mind boggling.

When they indulged in nonsense and began to dispute in the presence of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him), he said: “Get up (and go away)”

Meaning: These two parties started to argue with each other and RasoolAllah (SAWW) told them to leave.

Ubaidullah said: Ibn Abbas used to say: “There was a heavy loss, indeed a heavy loss, that, due to their dispute and noise, Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) could not write (or dictate) the document for them

Meaning: RasoolAllah (SAWW) was unable to write his will because of an argument among the people present, which was a "heavy loss." umar told RasoolAllah (SAWW) that they did not need his will, the other party said they did, there was a quarrel, and RasoolAllah (SAWW) said "Get up (and go away)." umar preventing RasoolAllah (SAWW) from writing his will was the "heavy loss" for the ummah. Do you not wonder what was it that RasoolAllah (SAWW) wanted to write? If the LAST PROPHET (SAWW) was about to pass away and asked for a pen and a paper, WHAT WOULD YOU DO? You have been dodging that question.

I broke down that hadith like I would have done for a child. For you to bring up the Ahlul-Bayt (A.S.), and imply that based on this hadith they sided with umar is a disgrace to your own sect. You may try to argue that the Ahlul-Bayt (A.S.) were involved in the argument (whether they sided with umar or not) which lead to RasoolAllah (SAWW) telling them to leave.....therfore it was partly Ahlul-Bayt's (A.S.) fault. Well my answer is this: The hadith does not even mention the Ahlul-Bayt (A.S.)(whether they were present or not is not the issue), the other party may as well be the sahabas who did not agree with umar's view of denying RasoolAllah (SAWW) the pen and paper. In the end, the hadith clearly states that umar felt the Quran was "sufficient," denying him the pen and paper, which started the argument.

If umar said the Quran is sufficient for us then he must have been well versed in It, wouldn't you say?

How come he forgot the following ayats when he denied what RasoolAllah (SAWW) asked for (pen and paper):

"O you who believe! obey Allah and His messenger and do not turn back from Him while you hear" (8:20)

"Whoever obeys the messenger, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them." (4:80)

Why did he not obey?

This is all based off of logic. Anyone looking at this hadith from an unbiased mind will come to the same conclusion.

So, what would you have done if RasoolAllah (SAWW) had asked you for a pen and paper?

I AINT DODGING ANYTHING far from it, its you who keeps asking diff questions but......wants me to answer that ONE STUPID QUESTION

i would do as ameer ul maumineen hazrath umar al farukh ra did, leave alone the prophet sallalahu alaihwasalam he is ILL,IF BROTHER YOU CAN BE BOTHERED TO CHECK MY PREVIOUS POSTS ON HERE ON ANOTHER THREAD ON SAME SUBJECT, THEN WHAT WAS SO IMPORTANT TO WRITE,THAT DIDNT GET WRITTEN?

you are causing a hue and cry for what? what was so important that was to be written,go ahead and logically provide the evidence from quran AS YOU SAY YOU HAVE BEEN DOING, what was soo so so calamitous????

anyway if your head of family say.......a father is on his deathbed who will be close to him? his friends? or his family? and who is narrating the said hadith? if ahlebait ra arnet mentioned then i guess you are going against your own hadith....which is a shame ......really!!!

and my brother you need to learn your own history,

He (the Prophet) fainted from the fatigue which had come upon him and the sorrow which possessed him.

He remained unconscious for a short time while the Muslims wept and his wives and the women and the children of the Muslims and all of those present raised great cries of lamentation. The Apostle of
Allah
recovered consciousness and looked at them. Then he said: “Bring me ink and parchment so that I may write for you, after which you will never go astray.”

Again he fainted and one of those present rose to look for ink and parchment.

“Go back,” Umar ordered him.

(Kitab Al-Irshad, by Shaykh Mufid, p.130)

what were you saying about ahlebait ra? lol

all that hue and cry of ahlebait ra but...........your own hadith kills your self proclaimed argument..........unless like a typical shia.......you will say you dont believ that but somehow you will believe ours?? lol

Edited by Naz_

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