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Rational Thinking

Can Dua's Cure Cancer?

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I will propose an argument and see both sides. On one hand, in the last 200 years there have been cancer treatments which are still developing. Before that, there were rash ways to cure it via surgeries. These did not ultimately cure it but merely delayed death.

Case after case, we see that people die from cancer, and even millenia before christ, an egyptian doctor named imhoteph named cure after cure based on his knowledge for ailments.

For cancer he said : "there is none".

People died from it if they obtained it or lived long enough. No amputee has ever had an arm regrown from Dua.

So my question is, if we know what treatments we need to use, and if it is up to science and medicine to cure people...surely by virtue of occams razor dua becomes superflous.

Atheists don't do dua and get cured.

Thus treatment is a neccesary condition. Dua is neither a neccesary or sufficient condition.

I do see the view that religions dictate God helps via dua, he is God , he can do anything.

The problem is, Dua alone does not work. In addition, dua does not seem to give added effect whatsoever(fringe cases can be matched with cases where luck did not prevail)

Thoughts?

To add, if Dua's could miraculously cure someone and if God by his infinite wisdom cherry picks who to help, then surely we should see health miracles?

Amputated limbs growing back for example.

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I honestly didnt read your post because its constantly related to doubts you have. But, from reading the title, I will post you questions and you answer them to yourself.

1.Who does your dua go to?

2. Can God cure Cancer?

3. Is it his choice to cure it or not?

4. Can anyone just dua and it works?

5. Is your piety and faith high?

6. Do you truly submit to his requests?

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I would try to keep it short.

There are two worlds. One physical which you can see and we live in. and other is spiritual. It's much like Matrix movie. (if you know what I meant). You can't enter into Matirx or the spirtual world, but some would. It's long story and barely can be covered here.

As for physical world, I am pretty sure, God barely interferes in it. and there is a good reason for it. If he had to intervene every other day, then there was no point in creating this world, and even so Human beings. Why would God need human beings for? He already had created enough creatures, whom he was apparent to, and they will hence worship him day and night.

But still human creation is a mystery which is only known to God, as God replied to Angeles's response, "You don't know what I do". when they said there is no need to create humans as they will create chaos on earth, and we are already serving you in prayers day and night. got it.

So we can only make guesses why did God create human beings and this earth for them.

As for spirtual world, this is real. If you dive into that, you would realize, this physical world is merely a joke. everything from our birth, to live here, and strive for making money or livelihood all seems like a joke to me. but this joke is good enough to keep the life going for ourselves. because if you step back, you would either become physco or what we call 'Darwarish' or 'malang'. So even the spiritualists therefore don't go too far in the spiritual world.

I know it does not answer your question directly, but it's very complex one. But I just tried to give you little hints based on the knowledge I currently have.

Fair points. So if there is a seperation between the physical and spiritual, why are we told to keep doing Dua for everything in the physical, when God rarely intereferes. I do Dua too.

I honestly didnt read your post because its constantly related to doubts you have. But, from reading the title, I will post you questions and you answer them to yourself.

1.Who does your dua go to?

2. Can God cure Cancer?

3. Is it his choice to cure it or not?

4. Can anyone just dua and it works?

5. Is your piety and faith high?

6. Do you truly submit to his requests?

Salam brother. Muhammed pbuh said "the cure for ignorance is to question". I would be willing to hear your views after you have read my OP.

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I will propose an argument and see both sides. On one hand, in the last 200 years there have been cancer treatments which are still developing. Before that, there were rash ways to cure it via surgeries. These did not ultimately cure it but merely delayed death.

Case after case, we see that people die from cancer, and even millenia before christ, an egyptian doctor named imhoteph named cure after cure based on his knowledge for ailments.

For cancer he said : "there is none".

People died from it if they obtained it or lived long enough. No amputee has ever had an arm regrown from Dua.

So my question is, if we know what treatments we need to use, and if it is up to science and medicine to cure people...surely by virtue of occams razor dua becomes superflous.

Atheists don't do dua and get cured.

Thus treatment is a neccesary condition. Dua is neither a neccesary or sufficient condition.

I do see the view that religions dictate God helps via dua, he is God , he can do anything.

The problem is, Dua alone does not work. In addition, dua does not seem to give added effect whatsoever(fringe cases can be matched with cases where luck did not prevail)

Thoughts?

To add, if Dua's could miraculously cure someone and if God by his infinite wisdom cherry picks who to help, then surely we should see health miracles?

Amputated limbs growing back for example.

You have Islam confused with sorcery, so instead of going around passing fatwas on shirk/deviancy you need to work on building your own emaan.

Duas do not cause the arms, legs and brain matter to regenerate. Its all about placing your trust in Allah. Its called faith or emaan in his protection. Look up definition of Tawakkul Allah and it should help you understand that if a cancer patient dies even after countless duas and medical operations then you accept it as the will of God.

“…Then when thou hast taken a decision put they trust in Allah. For Allah loves those who put their trust (in Him)”

“If Allah helps you, none can overcome you: If He forsakes you, who is there after that, that can help you? In Allah then, let the Believers put their trust.”

Another example of this is your daily allowance. Praying duas while sitting home will not cause your bank account to grow but being out in the field working your self off while praying for assistance from Allah results in positive gains. Is there scientific data to prove this theory? No, because this is considered part parcel of one's own faith and belief in Allah.

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You have Islam confused with sorcery, so instead of going around passing fatwas on shirk/deviancy you need to work on building your own emaan.

Duas do not cause the arms, legs and brain matter to regenerate. Its all about placing your trust in Allah. Its called faith or emaan in his protection. Look up definition of Tawakkul Allah and it should help you understand that if a cancer patient dies even after countless duas and medical operations then you accept it as the will of God.

“…Then when thou hast taken a decision put they trust in Allah. For Allah loves those who put their trust (in Him)”

“If Allah helps you, none can overcome you: If He forsakes you, who is there after that, that can help you? In Allah then, let the Believers put their trust.”

Another example of this is your daily allowance. Praying duas while sitting home will not cause your bank account to grow but being out in the field working your self off while praying for assistance from Allah results in positive gains. Is there scientific data to prove this theory? No, because this is considered part parcel of one's own faith and belief in Allah.

I do not accept saying Ya Ali Madad, Neither did Ayatullah Fadallah, and a lot of users here. That is for another discussion, and i dislike needless confrontations so will promptly move on.

So you accept that dua's alone can not help. However...if to get something you need to work, then why do Dua? Atheists do the same thing, no dua neccesary.

To add, what about cancer and all the ilnesses we could not cure? People did their best, put trust in Allah swt, tried to find cures...but there were no medical cures or treatments, so they died despite prayers.

Thus, treatment is a neccesary condition. We don't see believers surviving anymore than non believers.

We all do dua - even an atheist does. He hopes he will get cured by whatever power that can help him - right?

What about an agnostic, not heard of islam, or a deist, who has not heard of islam or dua - how do they get cured?

People have always been calling on spirits/supernatural entities before we realised evidence based medicine cured ilnesses and not prayers.

So where exactly does this leave prayers?

I am asking to learn. Thanks for the insightful answer.

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I would really advise to learn more about the religion rather than questioning everything endlessly. Your post demonstrates a misunderstanding of the purpose and function of du`a in the lives of the believers.

I have watched lectures about dua, read the philosophy of duas, reasoned about it with myself, even watched a debate amongst theists and atheists. I even read a book.

I admit i have a lot to learn, but it would be unfair to dismiss my post so easily.

If Dua is symbolic to acknowledge God is above us - i agree.

If Dua is meant to cause a physical manifestation - there is no proof it happens, and this can occur without Dua.

Cancer could not be cured before , even though people were sincere and it was the best for them.

Thus, Dua is powerless, best for someone or not, unless the laws of causality, scientific and evidence based treatment is in existence.

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Assalamualaikum

As with most things, its about a BALANCE. The idea of praying for something without putting any effort is something I am dubious about.

I know Bahlool was not one of the Masumeen but he was no doubt very wise.

It is said that an Arab had a camel which was afflicted by the itching disease. People advised him to rub castor oil on it. The Arab rode his camel to the city to buy the oil. Near the city, he met Bohlool. Since Bohlool was his friend, he said to him, "My camel has the itching disease. People told me that by rubbing castor oil on it, it will be cured. But I believe that your personality has more influence and is better. Please be compassionate and pray for my camel and bless it, so that it can cured of this sickness."Bohlool said, "If you buy the castor oil, and along with it include my prayer, then it is certain that your camel will quickly become healthy, but alone the prayer has no effect."The Arab bought the oil. Bohlool prayed for and blessed the camel. After a few days of massaging with oil, the camel became healthy.

Lastly just because an individual has not seen health miracles, does not mean they can't happen. An amputated limb growing back is hardly the extent of a health miracle. I personally believe your original post seems a little oversimplified. Dua is not something that is understood on such a basic level.

At the end of the day there is no power or strength greater than Allah's and if you are doing dua to him, anything is possible.

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Assalamualaikum

As with most things, its about a BALANCE. The idea of praying for something without putting any effort is something I am dubious about.

I know Bahlool was not one of the Masumeen but he was no doubt very wise.

It is said that an Arab had a camel which was afflicted by the itching disease. People advised him to rub castor oil on it. The Arab rode his camel to the city to buy the oil. Near the city, he met Bohlool. Since Bohlool was his friend, he said to him, "My camel has the itching disease. People told me that by rubbing castor oil on it, it will be cured. But I believe that your personality has more influence and is better. Please be compassionate and pray for my camel and bless it, so that it can cured of this sickness."Bohlool said, "If you buy the castor oil, and along with it include my prayer, then it is certain that your camel will quickly become healthy, but alone the prayer has no effect."The Arab bought the oil. Bohlool prayed for and blessed the camel. After a few days of massaging with oil, the camel became healthy.

Lastly just because an individual has not seen health miracles, does not mean they can't happen. An amputated limb growing back is hardly the extent of a health miracle. I personally believe your original post seems a little oversimplified. Dua is not something that is understood on such a basic level.

At the end of the day there is no power or strength greater than Allah's and if you are doing dua to him, anything is possible.

Salam. An insightful answer as usual sister.

If i analyse your post and narration, you attest that Dua works only when balanced with work. This is a concept i have understood and mentioned in my OP. The truth of life is, unlike in the story you mentioned, Dua and work does not give results always. What would Bahlul( i like this guy btw) have said if the camel did not get better ?

Thus my argument states that cancer was incureable until recent times. No matter what treatments you did and effort you put in along side Dua, the cancer would not go unless you used a treatment which was not yet to be discovered.

Thus, if we analyse it it seems the actual medication is the common denominator between getting better from cancer.

Yet, there are those who do not do dua and get better, and those that do and do not get better. Plus, without the treatment there is no recovery.

So, Dua does not seem to as the narration suggests increase the chances of getting better. The neccesary condition is clearly the treatment and Dua is not a neccesary condition.

So if it is not neccesary...why do it?

For symbolic purposes ? Or to yield an unproven effect?

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Salam. An insightful answer as usual sister.

If i analyse your post and narration, you attest that Dua works only when balanced with work. This is a concept i have understood and mentioned in my OP. The truth of life is, unlike in the story you mentioned, Dua and work does not give results always. What would Bahlul( i like this guy btw) have said if the camel did not get better ?

Thus my argument states that cancer was incureable until recent times. No matter what treatments you did and effort you put in along side Dua, the cancer would not go unless you used a treatment which was not yet to be discovered.

Thus, if we analyse it it seems the actual medication is the common denominator between getting better from cancer.

Yet, there are those who do not do dua and get better, and those that do and do not get better. Plus, without the treatment there is no recovery.

So, Dua does not seem to as the narration suggests increase the chances of getting better. The neccesary condition is clearly the treatment and Dua is not a neccesary condition.

So if it is not neccesary...why do it?

For symbolic purposes ? Or to yield an unproven effect?

I thought you'd be a fan of Bahlool :P Now, I can't answer for Bahlool but I think that somethings just don't happen because they aren't meant to be. That does not mean the Dua had no effect, someone can still be uncured but have no pain or have a better quality of life due to Dua. I know a person who was in the last stages of cancer and had no pain whatsoever, the doctors themselves said it was a miracle. Now what caused thar I don't know, but it wasn't treatment as if anything the treatment would add to the discomfort.

As for those who do not do Dua and are treated, eg athiests, even if they not once during their illness have appealed to a higher power, does that mean Allah has forsaken them, no of course not. He does not show prejudice and only cure the believers amongst human kind.

You said "If its not necessary...why do it"

Respectfully, that's flawed. Allah looks after his creation whether they ask or not. But does that automatically mean we should not even ask him?

I would also like to add some of the deeds with great thawaab and benefit are not necessary, from Umrah to marriage. Although it is not a direct comparison I hope you understand what I am getting at.

Bare in mind there are narrations recommending Dua.

Dua is a humbling process. It allows for self-reflection, repentance and a connection with God. That's why I said that Dua cannot be explained in such basic terms, in my previous post.

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I have watched lectures about dua, read the philosophy of duas, reasoned about it with myself, even watched a debate amongst theists and atheists. I even read a book.

I admit i have a lot to learn, but it would be unfair to dismiss my post so easily.

If Dua is symbolic to acknowledge God is above us - i agree.

If Dua is meant to cause a physical manifestation - there is no proof it happens, and this can occur without Dua.

Cancer could not be cured before , even though people were sincere and it was the best for them.

Thus, Dua is powerless, best for someone or not, unless the laws of causality, scientific and evidence based treatment is in existence.

Have a little humility and perhaps we'll talk.

Edited by al-Irshad

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The process of dua is summed up by a dua Imam Ali (as) said:

"Oh Allah, when I lose my hopes and plans, help me remember that your love is greater than my disappointments, and your plans for my life are better than my dreams."

Exactly.

Although Allah swt has no plan for us, because that defeats the point of free will, i do agree with the first two segments. No matter how bad it gets, you exist and to you i'll return.

Thus, Dua effectively becomes symbollic in a way?

Have a little humility and perhaps we'll talk.

Precisely why i said i have much to learn. In essence i have read , asked, debated, and listened to lectures.

I am ready to desist from my view if you can use arguments to convince me of yours(: I want to be convinced. I do DUA anyway.

wasallam.

anything is possible with the prayer. a prayer is merely your wish. but that Wish is granted by God. a prayer can change the rules of this physical world, and bring it up side down. but thing is, it is up to God to grant you that wish. it's again complex. why some wish are granted and other not.

wishes are even granted without prayer too. and some wishes are not granted despite no matter how deeply you pray for it. this is apparent.

------

I have come to conclusions after all this, that all our worship are only for life after the death. -- this physical world apparently is at its own. Because if you look around athiests barely look or live any different than us. they work and earn money the same way as we do. this whole thing would be even more complex as you dive into to that.

But it's not like God never intervenes, he does, but very very very very rarely.

by the way if you have a specific wish or prayer do PM. I will try to push it forward to God :D no joke seriously. Because i have been very fortunate to get my 99% prayers fulfilled. but again, the kind of faith I have in God, it's like he is always in front of me i can't see him but literally can feel him. I can proudly claim that my faith in my Allah is stronger than the grand aytullahs. which is immesenly tested esp., in the past 7 years. the real point here is 'faith'. the situations i have gone through, most probably had turned most people athiests. But with every trial and test, i get closer and closer to God.

As Iqbal said " raise yourself so high that God itself asks you what is your wish "

Surely if that is true, then before we could find a cure for cancer, the plethora of cancer sufferers who made dua , surely one should have been cured atleast?

Why is this not the case? Why is it only until we can find a cure that the suffers are cured, and not the power of Dua helping the sincere?

If i look back in history, small pox cholera, hiv, cancer, bacterial infection...all of these wreacked havock. No Dua stopped it and people died left right and center.

It is only until we can find cures that people are actually helped...

So why thank the Dua and not the cure, if when we humans were totally helpless, doing all we could, and sincere, Dua never helped?

I thought you'd be a fan of Bahlool :P Now, I can't answer for Bahlool but I think that somethings just don't happen because they aren't meant to be. That does not mean the Dua had no effect, someone can still be uncured but have no pain or have a better quality of life due to Dua. I know a person who was in the last stages of cancer and had no pain whatsoever, the doctors themselves said it was a miracle. Now what caused thar I don't know, but it wasn't treatment as if anything the treatment would add to the discomfort.

As for those who do not do Dua and are treated, eg athiests, even if they not once during their illness have appealed to a higher power, does that mean Allah has forsaken them, no of course not. He does not show prejudice and only cure the believers amongst human kind.

You said "If its not necessary...why do it"

Respectfully, that's flawed. Allah looks after his creation whether they ask or not. But does that automatically mean we should not even ask him?

I would also like to add some of the deeds with great thawaab and benefit are not necessary, from Umrah to marriage. Although it is not a direct comparison I hope you understand what I am getting at.

Bare in mind there are narrations recommending Dua.

Dua is a humbling process. It allows for self-reflection, repentance and a connection with God. That's why I said that Dua cannot be explained in such basic terms, in my previous post.

I absolutely agree with the last line, which really describes Dua in a symbolic way. I see people dying or born absolutely mutated. I may die a death soon, and i think, well so much for "Gods lovley plan". It all seems random, all in accordance with the blind law of causality.

I can probably find atheists who have remissions too. On the whole though, cancer was lethal in the past/less lethal but still alarming today.

Edited by Rational Thinking

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Allah has said in Quran that all diseases are curable.

And death is not a disease.

/thread

My point was not about disease being cureable.

It was about Dua being absolutely useless until we actually obtained cures for disease.

And people get cured without Dua.

So why do it? Is it symbolic to give thanks?

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anything is possible with the prayer. a prayer is merely your wish. but that Wish is granted by God. a prayer can change the rules of this physical world, and bring it up side down. but thing is, it is up to God to grant you that wish. it's again complex. why some wish are granted and other not.

wishes are even granted without prayer too. and some wishes are not granted despite no matter how deeply you pray for it. this is apparent.

------

I have come to conclusions after all this, that all our worship are only for life after the death. -- this physical world apparently is at its own. Because if you look around athiests barely look or live any different than us. they work and earn money the same way as we do. this whole thing would be even more complex as you dive into to that.

But it's not like God never intervenes, he does, but very very very very rarely.

by the way if you have a specific wish or prayer do PM. I will try to push it forward to God :D no joke seriously. Because i have been very fortunate to get my 99% prayers fulfilled. but again, the kind of faith I have in God, it's like he is always in front of me i can't see him but literally can feel him. I can proudly claim that my faith in my Allah is stronger than the grand aytullahs. which is immesenly tested esp., in the past 7 years. the real point here is 'faith'. the situations i have gone through, most probably had turned most people athiests. But with every trial and test, i get closer and closer to God.

As Iqbal said " raise yourself so high that God itself asks you what is your wish "

I certainly have a prayer request to make, please make a dua on my behalf that all my wishes and duas for today come true this year, and that I get a job soon. I am really inspired by your strong iman maash Allah, may Allah grant me the same and persevere it for you too.

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In terms of some simplistic notion of God magically intervening to cure the cancer, I don't think so. Where I can see a place for it is through tweaking the dynamics of the mind-body connection. There's some indications from research that positive attitudes leading to improved health outcomes and sugar pills having placebo effects because someone honestly thought it was medicine. Or through the mechanism of mental calmness and tranquility and trust in God reducing stress and worry, reducing the harmful effects of stress - high blood pressure, inflammation, cortisol, etc. If there's a medical benefit, it's in there. I would probably say there is more preventive medicine benefit in regular, sincere, focused prayer/dua/meditation than reactive/curative benefit. More to keep the mind and body balanced to prevent illness rather than curing it after it arrives.

Edited by kadhim

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In terms of some simplistic notion of God magically intervening to cure the cancer, I don't think so. Where I can see a place for it is through tweaking the dynamics of the mind-body connection. There's some indications from research that positive attitudes leading to improved health outcomes and sugar pills having placebo effects because someone honestly thought it was medicine. Or through the mechanism of mental calmness and tranquility and trust in God reducing stress and worry, reducing the harmful effects of stress - high blood pressure, inflammation, cortisol, etc. If there's a medical benefit, it's in there. I would probably say there is more preventive medicine benefit in regular, sincere, focused prayer/dua/meditation than reactive/curative benefit. More to keep the mind and body balanced to prevent illness rather than curing it after it arrives.

Communication with Cancer---?

I read it in a book of a Sunni Sufi Saint---He said it's a good way of building rapport with the disease and a sort of a way of " talking it out of one's body "---.

..And red colour....

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