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Abdar_Rahmaan

Debating Sunni, Any Tips?

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If there's one thing I've learned about debating a Sunni is that no matter what info you present to him supporting your position (Quran, Hadith, etc...) he/she will never accept it as the truth nor will concede that you are right. Even if you place the truth in front of them their opinion of Shia will prevent them from accepting it.

Don't waste your time with debates. They're not worth the time or effort.

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He challenged me and I don't want Shiaism to look defenseless from all the questions. The sunni I'm debating seems understanding, I know he won't give in but I just want him to know that Shiaism has got reasoning. The debate is about the successor after Muhammad (saw)

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don't debate people for the sake of debating or to win debates.

Debate them because you believe you have a point of view that has sufficient evidence to warrant a belief and that you wish to explain why your proposed view is more evidenced and logical than the persons you are debating.

You need to keep respect with the sunni brother. As much as they insult you, be absolutely calm. Let your arguments talk.

I would try debating him or her with their sources. There's plenty in the shia/sunni thread to begin learning.

Remember, always scrutinize yourself first, find the alleged flaws in your belief so you can counter them and increase your understanding.

You debate for a higher purpose, and not for pride or gain.

If there's one thing I've learned about debating a Sunni is that no matter what info you present to him supporting your position (Quran, Hadith, etc...) he/she will never accept it as the truth nor will concede that you are right. Even if you place the truth in front of them their opinion of Shia will prevent them from accepting it.

Don't waste your time with debates. They're not worth the time or effort.

Muhammed pbuh had to debate the most ignorant of people, yet he persisted. Yunus was reprimanded by Allah swt for fleeing his duty of conveying the message.

There are good people out there who just need to be exposed to both sides.

At worst, just agree to disagree.

'to you your way, to me mine'

We shia's disagree on a lot of things. I am a shia who does not accept tatbir and ya ali madad. If a shia was trying to convince a sunni these acts are ok, i am not surprised if the sunni brother/sister just could not make sense of how.

Edited by Rational Thinking

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Here's a tip: Don't!

Because you are not a scholar (or else you would not be making this thread you would know where to look) and you are going to misrepresent.

We shias admit we are not scholars and we follow our scholars.

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don't debate people for the sake of debating or to win debates.

Debate them because you believe you have a point of view that has sufficient evidence to warrant a belief and that you wish to explain why your proposed view is more evidenced and logical than the persons you are debating.

You need to keep respect with the sunni brother. As much as they insult you, be absolutely calm. Let your arguments talk.

I would try debating him or her with their sources. There's plenty in the shia/sunni thread to begin learning.

Remember, always scrutinize yourself first, find the alleged flaws in your belief so you can counter them and increase your understanding.

You debate for a higher purpose, and not for pride or gain.

Muhammed pbuh had to debate the most ignorant of people, yet he persisted. Yunus was reprimanded by Allah swt for fleeing his duty of conveying the message.

There are good people out there who just need to be exposed to both sides.

At worst, just agree to disagree.

'to you your way, to me mine'

We shia's disagree on a lot of things. I am a shia who does not accept tatbir and ya ali madad. If a shia was trying to convince a sunni these acts are ok, i am not surprised if the sunni brother/sister just could not make sense of how.

yunus A.S was never reprimanded....

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Hello Guys, Thanks for everything.

I have researched this topic numerous times and like to think that I am quite knowledgable. The person I am debating, he is a person I know we'll and I also know that he will not ever go to a shia scholar because he can't be bothered. I am the only Shia person he knows and he challenged me. ( by challenge me I mean he asked me to debate because he thinks Shiaism has no defence)I just reckoned that there might be some extra tips that you could give me apart from the ones I have got.

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Salaam,

One piece of advice I like to remind myself with is, to ONLY focus on usool al-deen with non-Shia, because if they don't understand the basics, it's almost impossible for them to get into more complex matters of Islam. Of course, I may digress at times, but I think therein should lie the main focus.

Edited by gogiison2

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Salaam,

I am going to debate a sunni soon as he challenged me. Any tips to blow his socks of? Any quotes on Imam Ali. Any bad quotes on the 3. Any other help. With reference too please.

Walaikum Salam

Next time you can use this:

Imam Hussain (A.S.) replied to a man who said, 'Sit down so we can debate about religion' – 'I am aware of my religion, and my path is clear for me. So, if you are ignorant about your religion then go and seek it. What do I have to do with disputation? Indeed the devil tempts a person and calls him, saying, 'Debate with people regarding their religion so that they do not think of you as incapable and ignorant.'

Go to al-Islam.org for some useful information. You can look up "wilayat" or "ghadir" and find a lot of articles and books.

This is a good article as well.

http://www.al-islam....chapter3/3.html

I think you may find a lot of useful information on shiachat as well. Look up Wilayat, Imamat, Ghadir etc.

Edited by theinfallibles

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Walaikum Salam

Next time you can use this:

Imam Hussain (A.S.) replied to a man who said, 'Sit down so we can debate about religion' – 'I am aware of my religion, and my path is clear for me. So, if you are ignorant about your religion then go and seek it. What do I have to do with disputation? Indeed the devil tempts a person and calls him, saying, 'Debate with people regarding their religion so that they do not think of you as incapable and ignorant.'

Go to al-Islam.org for some useful information. You can look up "wilayat" or "ghadir" and find a lot of articles and books.

This is a good article as well.

http://www.al-islam....chapter3/3.html

I think you may find a lot of useful information on shiachat as well. Look up Wilayat, Imamat, Ghadir etc.

Salaam,

One piece of advice I like to remind myself with is, to ONLY focus on usool al-deen with non-Shia, because if they don't understand the basics, it's almost impossible for them to get into more complex matters of Islam. Of course, I may digress at times, but I think therein should lie the main focus.

Thanks a lot guys, a lot of use ful tips you gave me. I don't understand why people don't want me too. It doesn't make sense to me...

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Thanks a lot guys, a lot of use ful tips you gave me. I don't understand why people don't want me too. It doesn't make sense to me...

You're welcome.

It's actually quite simple to understand why people don't want you to do this. Your friend does not want to learn, he wants to argue.

We use logic, and they, sadly, lack in that department greatly. That's the way they are brought up.....not to question anything.

I think I would have turned him down as well.

I would recommend teaching/answering him instead of debating him.

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Thanks a lot guys, a lot of use ful tips you gave me. I don't understand why people don't want me too. It doesn't make sense to me...

Because the very fact that you are asking the questions you ask in the first post suggests that you do not know enough in order to conduct an argument. If you don't know what points to raise, clearly you don't know what the Sunni response to them will be nor how to address them.

As so often happens on bulletin boards where there is a lack of knowledge, people make up for it with rhetoric and insults and that does not really achieve anything, does it?

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I understand now. But I will just like to add one thing. The brother I'm debating is open minded. And also I know quite a lot info on this subject. I just posted this so I learn how to approach him and some extra hadiths that I probably haven't thought of.

Thanks Anyway

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Here some Bukhari that might help:

5.61:

Narrated Al-Miswar bin Makhrama:

Allah's Apostle said, "Fatima is a part of me, and he who makes her angry, makes me angry."

5.546:

Narrated `Aisha:

Fatima the daughter of the Prophet sent someone to Abu Bakr (when he was a caliph), asking for her

inheritance of what Allah's Apostle had left of the property bestowed on him by Allah from the Fai

(i.e. booty gained without fighting) in Medina, and Fadak, and what remained of the Khumus of the

Khaibar booty. On that, Abu Bakr said, "Allah's Apostle said, "Our property is not inherited.

Whatever we leave, is Sadaqa, but the family of (the Prophet) Muhammad can eat of this property.' By

Allah, I will not make any change in the state of the Sadaqa of Allah's Apostle and will leave it as it

was during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle, and will dispose of it as Allah's Apostle used to do." So

Abu Bakr refused to give anything of that to Fatima. So she became angry with Abu Bakr and kept

away from him, and did not task to him till she died. She remained alive for six months after the death

of the Prophet. When she died, her husband `Ali, buried her at night without informing Abu Bakr and

he said the funeral prayer by himself. When Fatima was alive, the people used to respect `Ali much,

but after her death, `Ali noticed a change in the people's attitude towards him. So `Ali sought

reconciliation with Abu Bakr and gave him an oath of allegiance. `Ali had not given the oath of

allegiance during those months (i.e. the period between the Prophet's death and Fatima's death). `Ali

sent someone to Abu Bakr saying, "Come to us, but let nobody come with you," as he disliked that

`Umar should come, `Umar said (to Abu Bakr), "No, by Allah, you shall not enter upon them alone "

Abu Bakr said, "What do you think they will do to me? By Allah, I will go to them' So Abu Bakr

entered upon them, and then `Ali uttered Tashah-hud and said (to Abu Bakr), "We know well your

superiority and what Allah has given you, and we are not jealous of the good what Allah has bestowed

upon you, but you did not consult us in the question of the rule and we thought that we have got a

right in it because of our near relationship to Allah's Apostle ."

Thereupon Abu Bakr's eyes flowed with tears. And when Abu Bakr spoke, he said, "By Him in

Whose Hand my soul is to keep good relations with the relatives of Allah's Apostle is dearer to me

than to keep good relations with my own relatives. But as for the trouble which arose between me and

you about his property, I will do my best to spend it according to what is good, and will not leave any

rule or regulation which I saw Allah's Apostle following, in disposing of it, but I will follow." On that

`Ali said to Abu Bakr, "I promise to give you the oath of allegiance in this after noon." So when Abu

Bakr had offered the Zuhr prayer, he ascended the pulpit and uttered the Tashah-hud and then

mentioned the story of `Ali and his failure to give the oath of allegiance, and excused him, accepting

what excuses he had offered; Then `Ali (got up) and praying (to Allah) for forgiveness, he uttered

Tashah-hud, praised Abu Bakr's right, and said, that he had not done what he had done because of

jealousy of Abu Bakr or as a protest of that Allah had favored him with. `Ali added, "But we used to

consider that we too had some right in this affair (of rulership) and that he (i.e. Abu Bakr) did not

consult us in this matter, and therefore caused us to feel sorry." On that all the Muslims became happy

and said, "You have done the right thing." The Muslims then became friendly with `Ali as he returned

to what the people had done (i.e. giving the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr).

8.817:

Narrated Ibn `Abbas:

I used to teach (the Qur'an to) some people of the Muhajirln (emigrants), among whom there was

`Abdur Rahman bin `Auf. While I was in his house at Mina, and he was with `Umar bin Al-Khattab

during `Umar's last Hajj, `Abdur-Rahman came to me and said, "Would that you had seen the man

who came today to the Chief of the Believers (`Umar), saying, 'O Chief of the Believers! What do you

think about so-and-so who says, 'If `Umar should die, I will give the pledge of allegiance to such-and-

such person, as by Allah, the pledge of allegiance to Abu Bakr was nothing but a prompt sudden

action which got established afterwards.' `Umar became angry and then said, 'Allah willing,

I will stand before the people tonight and warn them against those people who want to deprive the others of

their rights (the question of rulership).

`Abdur-Rahman said, "I said, 'O Chief of the believers! Do not do that, for the season of Hajj gathers

the riff-raff and the rubble, and it will be they who will gather around you when you stand to address

the people. And I am afraid that you will get up and say something, and some people will spread your

statement and may not say what you have actually said and may not understand its meaning, and may

interpret it incorrectly, so you should wait till you reach Medina, as it is the place of emigration and

the place of Prophet's Traditions, and there you can come in touch with the learned and noble people,

and tell them your ideas with confidence; and the learned people will understand your statement and

put it in its proper place.' On that, `Umar said, 'By Allah! Allah willing, I will do this in the first

speech I will deliver before the people in Medina."

Ibn `Abbas added: We reached Medina by the end of the month of Dhul-Hijja, and when it was

Friday, we went quickly (to the mosque) as soon as the sun had declined, and I saw Sa`id bin Zaid bin

`Amr bin Nufail sitting at the corner of the pulpit, and I too sat close to him so that my knee was

touching his knee, and after a short while `Umar bin Al-Khattab came out, and when I saw him

coming towards us, I said to Sa`id bin Zaid bin `Amr bin Nufail "Today `Umar will say such a thing

as he has never said since he was chosen as Caliph." Sa`id denied my statement with astonishment and

said, "What thing do you expect `Umar to say the like of which he has never said before?"

In the meantime, `Umar sat on the pulpit and when the callmakers for the prayer had finished their

call, `Umar stood up, and having glorified and praised Allah as He deserved, he said, "Now then, I am

going to tell you something which (Allah) has written for me to say. I do not know; perhaps it

portends my death, so whoever understands and remembers it, must narrate it to the others wherever

his mount takes him, but if somebody is afraid that he does not understand it, then it is unlawful for

him to tell lies about me. Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him,

and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married person (male &

female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse, and we did recite this Verse and understood and

memorized it. Allah's Apostle did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him.

I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, 'By Allah, we do not find the Verse

of the Rajam in Allah's Book,' and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has

revealed. And the punishment of the Rajam is to be inflicted to any married person (male & female),

who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if the required evidence is available or there is conception or

confession. And then we used to recite among the Verses in Allah's Book: 'O people! Do not claim to

be the offspring of other than your fathers, as it is disbelief (unthankfulness) on your part that you

claim to be the offspring of other than your real father.' Then Allah's Apostle said, 'Do not praise me

excessively as Jesus, son of Marry was praised, but call me Allah's Slave and His Apostles.' (O

people!) I have been informed that a speaker amongst you says, 'By Allah, if `Umar should die, I will

give the pledge of allegiance to such-and-such person.' One should not deceive oneself by saying that

the pledge of allegiance given to Abu Bakr was given suddenly and it was successful. No doubt, it was

like that, but Allah saved (the people) from its evil, and there is none among you who has the qualities

of Abu Bakr. Remember that whoever gives the pledge of allegiance to anybody among you without

consulting the other Muslims, neither that person, nor the person to whom the pledge of allegiance

was given, are to be supported, lest they both should be killed.

And no doubt after the death of the Prophet we were informed that the Ansar disagreed with us and

gathered in the shed of Bani Sa`da. `Ali and Zubair and whoever was with them, opposed us, while

the emigrants gathered with Abu Bakr. I said to Abu Bakr, 'Let's go to these Ansari brothers of ours.'

So we set out seeking them, and when we approached them, two pious men of theirs met us and

informed us of the final decision of the Ansar, and said, 'O group of Muhajirin (emigrants) ! Where

are you going?' We replied, 'We are going to these Ansari brothers of ours.' They said to us, 'You

shouldn't go near them. Carry out whatever we have already decided.' I said, 'By Allah, we will go to

them.' And so we proceeded until we reached them at the shed of Bani Sa`da. Behold! There was a

man sitting amongst them and wrapped in something. I asked, 'Who is that man?' They said, 'He is

Sa`d bin 'Ubada.' I asked, 'What is wrong with him?' They said, 'He is sick.' After we sat for a while,

the Ansar's speaker said, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and praising Allah as He

deserved, he added, 'To proceed, we are Allah's Ansar (helpers) and the majority of the Muslim army,

while you, the emigrants, are a small group and some people among you came with the intention of

preventing us from practicing this matter (of caliphate) and depriving us of it.'

When the speaker had finished, I intended to speak as I had prepared a speech which I liked and which

I wanted to deliver in the presence of Abu Bakr, and I used to avoid provoking him. So, when I

wanted to speak, Abu Bakr said, 'Wait a while.' I disliked to make him angry. So Abu Bakr himself

gave a speech, and he was wiser and more patient than I. By Allah, he never missed a sentence that I

liked in my own prepared speech, but he said the like of it or better than it spontaneously. After a

pause he said, 'O Ansar! You deserve all (the qualities that you have attributed to yourselves, but this

question (of Caliphate) is only for the Quraish as they are the best of the Arabs as regards descent and

home, and I am pleased to suggest that you choose either of these two men, so take the oath of

allegiance to either of them as you wish. And then Abu Bakr held my hand and Abu Ubada bin

`Abdullah's hand who was sitting amongst us. I hated nothing of what he had said except that

proposal, for by Allah, I would rather have my neck chopped off as expiator for a sin than become the

ruler of a nation, one of whose members is Abu Bakr, unless at the time of my death my own-self

suggests something I don't feel at present.'

And then one of the Ansar said, 'I am the pillar on which the camel with a skin disease (eczema) rubs

itself to satisfy the itching (i.e., I am a noble), and I am as a high class palm tree! O Quraish. There

should be one ruler from us and one from you.'

Then there was a hue and cry among the gathering and their voices rose so that I was afraid there

might be great disagreement, so I said, 'O Abu Bakr! Hold your hand out.' He held his hand out and I

pledged allegiance to him, and then all the emigrants gave the Pledge of allegiance and so did the

Ansar afterwards. And so we became victorious over Sa`d bin Ubada (whom Al-Ansar wanted to

make a ruler). One of the Ansar said, 'You have killed Sa`d bin Ubada.' I replied, 'Allah has killed

Sa`d bin Ubada.' `Umar added, "By Allah, apart from the great tragedy that had happened to us (i.e.

the death of the Prophet), there was no greater problem than the allegiance pledged to Abu Bakr

because we were afraid that if we left the people, they might give the Pledge of allegiance after us to

one of their men, in which case we would have given them our consent for something against our real

wish, or would have opposed them and caused great trouble. So if any person gives the Pledge of

allegiance to somebody (to become a Caliph) without consulting the other Muslims, then the one he

has selected should not be granted allegiance, lest both of them should be killed."

9.468:

Narrated Ibn `Abbas:

When the time of the death of the Prophet approached while there were some men in the house, and

among them was `Umar bin Al-Khatttab, the Prophet said, "Come near let me write for you a writing

after which you will never go astray." `Umar said, "The Prophet is seriously ill, and you have the

Qur'an, so Allah's Book is sufficient for us." The people in the house differed and disputed. Some of

them said, "Come near so that Allah's Apostle may write for you a writing after which you will not go

astray," while some of them said what `Umar said. When they made much noise and differed greatly

before the Prophet, he said to them, "Go away and leave me." Ibn `Abbas used to say, "It was a great

disaster that their difference and noise prevented Allah's Apostle from writing that writing for them.

4.393:

Narrated Sa`id bin Jubair:

that he heard Ibn `Abbas saying, "Thursday! And you know not what Thursday is? After that Ibn

`Abbas wept till the stones on the ground were soaked with his tears. On that I asked Ibn `Abbas,

"What is (about) Thursday?" He said, "When the condition (i.e. health) of Allah's Apostle

deteriorated, he said, 'Bring me a bone of scapula, so that I may write something for you after which

you will never go astray.'The people differed in their opinions although it was improper to differ in

front of a prophet, They said, 'What is wrong with him? Do you think he is delirious? Ask him (to

understand). The Prophet replied, 'Leave me as I am in a better state than what you are asking me to

do.' Then the Prophet ordered them to do three things saying, 'Turn out all the pagans from the

Arabian Peninsula, show respect to all foreign delegates by giving them gifts as I used to do.' " The

sub-narrator added, "The third order was something beneficial which either Ibn `Abbas did not

mention or he mentioned but I forgot.'

8.584:

Narrated Anas:

The Prophet said, "Some of my companions will come to me at my Lake Fount, and after I recognize

them, they will then be taken away from me, whereupon I will say, 'My companions!' Then it will be

said, 'You do not know what they innovated (new things) in the religion after you."

Abu Huraira

narrated that the Prophet said, "On the Day of Resurrection a group of companions will come to me,

but will be driven away from the Lake-Fount, and I will say, 'O Lord (those are) my companions!' It

will be said, 'You have no knowledge as to what they innovated after you left; they turned apostate as

renegades (reverted from Islam).

8.586:

Narrated Ibn Al-Musaiyab:

The companions of the Prophet said, "Some men from my companions will come to my Lake-Fount

and they will be driven away from it, and I will say, 'O Lord, my companions!' It will be said, 'You

have no knowledge of what they innovated after you left: they turned apostate as renegades (reverted

from Islam).

8.587:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "While I was sleeping, a group (of my followers were brought close to me), and

when I recognized them, a man (an angel) came out from amongst (us) me and them, he said (to

them), 'Come along.' I asked, 'Where?' He said, 'To the (Hell) Fire, by Allah' I asked, 'what is wrong

with them' He said, 'They turned apostate as renegades after you left.' Then behold! (Another) group

(of my followers) were brought close to me, and when I recognized them, a man (an angel) came out

from (me and them) he said (to them); Come along.' I asked, "Where?' He said, 'To the (Hell) Fire, by

Allah.' I asked, What is wrong with them?' He said, 'They turned apostate as renegades after you left.

So I did not see anyone of them escaping except a few who were like camels without a shepherd."

8.590:

Narrated `Uqba bin 'Amir:

Once the Prophet went out and offered the funeral prayers for the martyrs of Uhud, and then went to

the pulpit and said, "I am a predecessor for you and I am a witness for you: and by Allah, I am looking

at my Fount just now, and the keys of the treasures of the earth (or the keys of the earth) have been

given to me: and by Allah, I am not afraid that you will worship others besides Allah after me, but I

am afraid that you will strive and struggle against each other over these treasures of the world."

5.137:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

The Prophet said to the Ansar, "After me you will see others given preference to you; so be patient till

you meet me, and your promised place (of meeting) will be the Tank (i.e. Lake of Kauthar).

5.127:

Narrated Al-Bara:

I heard the Prophet saying (or the Prophet said), "None loves the Ansar but a believer, and none hates

them but a hypocrite. So Allah will love him who loves them, and He will hate him who hates them."

5.128:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

The Prophet said, "The sign of Belief is to love the Ansar, and the sign of hypocrisy is to hate the

Ansar."

fi aman ilah

(wasalam)

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Here some Bukhari that might help:

5.61:

Narrated Al-Miswar bin Makhrama:

Allah's Apostle said, "Fatima is a part of me, and he who makes her angry, makes me angry."

5.546:

Narrated `Aisha:

Fatima the daughter of the Prophet sent someone to Abu Bakr (when he was a caliph), asking for her

inheritance of what Allah's Apostle had left of the property bestowed on him by Allah from the Fai

(i.e. booty gained without fighting) in Medina, and Fadak, and what remained of the Khumus of the

Khaibar booty. On that, Abu Bakr said, "Allah's Apostle said, "Our property is not inherited.

Whatever we leave, is Sadaqa, but the family of (the Prophet) Muhammad can eat of this property.' By

Allah, I will not make any change in the state of the Sadaqa of Allah's Apostle and will leave it as it

was during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle, and will dispose of it as Allah's Apostle used to do." So

Abu Bakr refused to give anything of that to Fatima. So she became angry with Abu Bakr and kept

away from him, and did not task to him till she died. She remained alive for six months after the death

of the Prophet. When she died, her husband `Ali, buried her at night without informing Abu Bakr and

he said the funeral prayer by himself. When Fatima was alive, the people used to respect `Ali much,

but after her death, `Ali noticed a change in the people's attitude towards him. So `Ali sought

reconciliation with Abu Bakr and gave him an oath of allegiance. `Ali had not given the oath of

allegiance during those months (i.e. the period between the Prophet's death and Fatima's death). `Ali

sent someone to Abu Bakr saying, "Come to us, but let nobody come with you," as he disliked that

`Umar should come, `Umar said (to Abu Bakr), "No, by Allah, you shall not enter upon them alone "

Abu Bakr said, "What do you think they will do to me? By Allah, I will go to them' So Abu Bakr

entered upon them, and then `Ali uttered Tashah-hud and said (to Abu Bakr), "We know well your

superiority and what Allah has given you, and we are not jealous of the good what Allah has bestowed

upon you, but you did not consult us in the question of the rule and we thought that we have got a

right in it because of our near relationship to Allah's Apostle ."

Thereupon Abu Bakr's eyes flowed with tears. And when Abu Bakr spoke, he said, "By Him in

Whose Hand my soul is to keep good relations with the relatives of Allah's Apostle is dearer to me

than to keep good relations with my own relatives. But as for the trouble which arose between me and

you about his property, I will do my best to spend it according to what is good, and will not leave any

rule or regulation which I saw Allah's Apostle following, in disposing of it, but I will follow." On that

`Ali said to Abu Bakr, "I promise to give you the oath of allegiance in this after noon." So when Abu

Bakr had offered the Zuhr prayer, he ascended the pulpit and uttered the Tashah-hud and then

mentioned the story of `Ali and his failure to give the oath of allegiance, and excused him, accepting

what excuses he had offered; Then `Ali (got up) and praying (to Allah) for forgiveness, he uttered

Tashah-hud, praised Abu Bakr's right, and said, that he had not done what he had done because of

jealousy of Abu Bakr or as a protest of that Allah had favored him with. `Ali added, "But we used to

consider that we too had some right in this affair (of rulership) and that he (i.e. Abu Bakr) did not

consult us in this matter, and therefore caused us to feel sorry." On that all the Muslims became happy

and said, "You have done the right thing." The Muslims then became friendly with `Ali as he returned

to what the people had done (i.e. giving the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr).

8.817:

Narrated Ibn `Abbas:

I used to teach (the Qur'an to) some people of the Muhajirln (emigrants), among whom there was

`Abdur Rahman bin `Auf. While I was in his house at Mina, and he was with `Umar bin Al-Khattab

during `Umar's last Hajj, `Abdur-Rahman came to me and said, "Would that you had seen the man

who came today to the Chief of the Believers (`Umar), saying, 'O Chief of the Believers! What do you

think about so-and-so who says, 'If `Umar should die, I will give the pledge of allegiance to such-and-

such person, as by Allah, the pledge of allegiance to Abu Bakr was nothing but a prompt sudden

action which got established afterwards.' `Umar became angry and then said, 'Allah willing,

I will stand before the people tonight and warn them against those people who want to deprive the others of

their rights (the question of rulership).

`Abdur-Rahman said, "I said, 'O Chief of the believers! Do not do that, for the season of Hajj gathers

the riff-raff and the rubble, and it will be they who will gather around you when you stand to address

the people. And I am afraid that you will get up and say something, and some people will spread your

statement and may not say what you have actually said and may not understand its meaning, and may

interpret it incorrectly, so you should wait till you reach Medina, as it is the place of emigration and

the place of Prophet's Traditions, and there you can come in touch with the learned and noble people,

and tell them your ideas with confidence; and the learned people will understand your statement and

put it in its proper place.' On that, `Umar said, 'By Allah! Allah willing, I will do this in the first

speech I will deliver before the people in Medina."

Ibn `Abbas added: We reached Medina by the end of the month of Dhul-Hijja, and when it was

Friday, we went quickly (to the mosque) as soon as the sun had declined, and I saw Sa`id bin Zaid bin

`Amr bin Nufail sitting at the corner of the pulpit, and I too sat close to him so that my knee was

touching his knee, and after a short while `Umar bin Al-Khattab came out, and when I saw him

coming towards us, I said to Sa`id bin Zaid bin `Amr bin Nufail "Today `Umar will say such a thing

as he has never said since he was chosen as Caliph." Sa`id denied my statement with astonishment and

said, "What thing do you expect `Umar to say the like of which he has never said before?"

In the meantime, `Umar sat on the pulpit and when the callmakers for the prayer had finished their

call, `Umar stood up, and having glorified and praised Allah as He deserved, he said, "Now then, I am

going to tell you something which (Allah) has written for me to say. I do not know; perhaps it

portends my death, so whoever understands and remembers it, must narrate it to the others wherever

his mount takes him, but if somebody is afraid that he does not understand it, then it is unlawful for

him to tell lies about me. Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him,

and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married person (male &

female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse, and we did recite this Verse and understood and

memorized it. Allah's Apostle did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him.

I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, 'By Allah, we do not find the Verse

of the Rajam in Allah's Book,' and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has

revealed. And the punishment of the Rajam is to be inflicted to any married person (male & female),

who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if the required evidence is available or there is conception or

confession. And then we used to recite among the Verses in Allah's Book: 'O people! Do not claim to

be the offspring of other than your fathers, as it is disbelief (unthankfulness) on your part that you

claim to be the offspring of other than your real father.' Then Allah's Apostle said, 'Do not praise me

excessively as Jesus, son of Marry was praised, but call me Allah's Slave and His Apostles.' (O

people!) I have been informed that a speaker amongst you says, 'By Allah, if `Umar should die, I will

give the pledge of allegiance to such-and-such person.' One should not deceive oneself by saying that

the pledge of allegiance given to Abu Bakr was given suddenly and it was successful. No doubt, it was

like that, but Allah saved (the people) from its evil, and there is none among you who has the qualities

of Abu Bakr. Remember that whoever gives the pledge of allegiance to anybody among you without

consulting the other Muslims, neither that person, nor the person to whom the pledge of allegiance

was given, are to be supported, lest they both should be killed.

And no doubt after the death of the Prophet we were informed that the Ansar disagreed with us and

gathered in the shed of Bani Sa`da. `Ali and Zubair and whoever was with them, opposed us, while

the emigrants gathered with Abu Bakr. I said to Abu Bakr, 'Let's go to these Ansari brothers of ours.'

So we set out seeking them, and when we approached them, two pious men of theirs met us and

informed us of the final decision of the Ansar, and said, 'O group of Muhajirin (emigrants) ! Where

are you going?' We replied, 'We are going to these Ansari brothers of ours.' They said to us, 'You

shouldn't go near them. Carry out whatever we have already decided.' I said, 'By Allah, we will go to

them.' And so we proceeded until we reached them at the shed of Bani Sa`da. Behold! There was a

man sitting amongst them and wrapped in something. I asked, 'Who is that man?' They said, 'He is

Sa`d bin 'Ubada.' I asked, 'What is wrong with him?' They said, 'He is sick.' After we sat for a while,

the Ansar's speaker said, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and praising Allah as He

deserved, he added, 'To proceed, we are Allah's Ansar (helpers) and the majority of the Muslim army,

while you, the emigrants, are a small group and some people among you came with the intention of

preventing us from practicing this matter (of caliphate) and depriving us of it.'

When the speaker had finished, I intended to speak as I had prepared a speech which I liked and which

I wanted to deliver in the presence of Abu Bakr, and I used to avoid provoking him. So, when I

wanted to speak, Abu Bakr said, 'Wait a while.' I disliked to make him angry. So Abu Bakr himself

gave a speech, and he was wiser and more patient than I. By Allah, he never missed a sentence that I

liked in my own prepared speech, but he said the like of it or better than it spontaneously. After a

pause he said, 'O Ansar! You deserve all (the qualities that you have attributed to yourselves, but this

question (of Caliphate) is only for the Quraish as they are the best of the Arabs as regards descent and

home, and I am pleased to suggest that you choose either of these two men, so take the oath of

allegiance to either of them as you wish. And then Abu Bakr held my hand and Abu Ubada bin

`Abdullah's hand who was sitting amongst us. I hated nothing of what he had said except that

proposal, for by Allah, I would rather have my neck chopped off as expiator for a sin than become the

ruler of a nation, one of whose members is Abu Bakr, unless at the time of my death my own-self

suggests something I don't feel at present.'

And then one of the Ansar said, 'I am the pillar on which the camel with a skin disease (eczema) rubs

itself to satisfy the itching (i.e., I am a noble), and I am as a high class palm tree! O Quraish. There

should be one ruler from us and one from you.'

Then there was a hue and cry among the gathering and their voices rose so that I was afraid there

might be great disagreement, so I said, 'O Abu Bakr! Hold your hand out.' He held his hand out and I

pledged allegiance to him, and then all the emigrants gave the Pledge of allegiance and so did the

Ansar afterwards. And so we became victorious over Sa`d bin Ubada (whom Al-Ansar wanted to

make a ruler). One of the Ansar said, 'You have killed Sa`d bin Ubada.' I replied, 'Allah has killed

Sa`d bin Ubada.' `Umar added, "By Allah, apart from the great tragedy that had happened to us (i.e.

the death of the Prophet), there was no greater problem than the allegiance pledged to Abu Bakr

because we were afraid that if we left the people, they might give the Pledge of allegiance after us to

one of their men, in which case we would have given them our consent for something against our real

wish, or would have opposed them and caused great trouble. So if any person gives the Pledge of

allegiance to somebody (to become a Caliph) without consulting the other Muslims, then the one he

has selected should not be granted allegiance, lest both of them should be killed."

9.468:

Narrated Ibn `Abbas:

When the time of the death of the Prophet approached while there were some men in the house, and

among them was `Umar bin Al-Khatttab, the Prophet said, "Come near let me write for you a writing

after which you will never go astray." `Umar said, "The Prophet is seriously ill, and you have the

Qur'an, so Allah's Book is sufficient for us." The people in the house differed and disputed. Some of

them said, "Come near so that Allah's Apostle may write for you a writing after which you will not go

astray," while some of them said what `Umar said. When they made much noise and differed greatly

before the Prophet, he said to them, "Go away and leave me." Ibn `Abbas used to say, "It was a great

disaster that their difference and noise prevented Allah's Apostle from writing that writing for them.

4.393:

Narrated Sa`id bin Jubair:

that he heard Ibn `Abbas saying, "Thursday! And you know not what Thursday is? After that Ibn

`Abbas wept till the stones on the ground were soaked with his tears. On that I asked Ibn `Abbas,

"What is (about) Thursday?" He said, "When the condition (i.e. health) of Allah's Apostle

deteriorated, he said, 'Bring me a bone of scapula, so that I may write something for you after which

you will never go astray.'The people differed in their opinions although it was improper to differ in

front of a prophet, They said, 'What is wrong with him? Do you think he is delirious? Ask him (to

understand). The Prophet replied, 'Leave me as I am in a better state than what you are asking me to

do.' Then the Prophet ordered them to do three things saying, 'Turn out all the pagans from the

Arabian Peninsula, show respect to all foreign delegates by giving them gifts as I used to do.' " The

sub-narrator added, "The third order was something beneficial which either Ibn `Abbas did not

mention or he mentioned but I forgot.'

8.584:

Narrated Anas:

The Prophet said, "Some of my companions will come to me at my Lake Fount, and after I recognize

them, they will then be taken away from me, whereupon I will say, 'My companions!' Then it will be

said, 'You do not know what they innovated (new things) in the religion after you."

Abu Huraira

narrated that the Prophet said, "On the Day of Resurrection a group of companions will come to me,

but will be driven away from the Lake-Fount, and I will say, 'O Lord (those are) my companions!' It

will be said, 'You have no knowledge as to what they innovated after you left; they turned apostate as

renegades (reverted from Islam).

8.586:

Narrated Ibn Al-Musaiyab:

The companions of the Prophet said, "Some men from my companions will come to my Lake-Fount

and they will be driven away from it, and I will say, 'O Lord, my companions!' It will be said, 'You

have no knowledge of what they innovated after you left: they turned apostate as renegades (reverted

from Islam).

8.587:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "While I was sleeping, a group (of my followers were brought close to me), and

when I recognized them, a man (an angel) came out from amongst (us) me and them, he said (to

them), 'Come along.' I asked, 'Where?' He said, 'To the (Hell) Fire, by Allah' I asked, 'what is wrong

with them' He said, 'They turned apostate as renegades after you left.' Then behold! (Another) group

(of my followers) were brought close to me, and when I recognized them, a man (an angel) came out

from (me and them) he said (to them); Come along.' I asked, "Where?' He said, 'To the (Hell) Fire, by

Allah.' I asked, What is wrong with them?' He said, 'They turned apostate as renegades after you left.

So I did not see anyone of them escaping except a few who were like camels without a shepherd."

8.590:

Narrated `Uqba bin 'Amir:

Once the Prophet went out and offered the funeral prayers for the martyrs of Uhud, and then went to

the pulpit and said, "I am a predecessor for you and I am a witness for you: and by Allah, I am looking

at my Fount just now, and the keys of the treasures of the earth (or the keys of the earth) have been

given to me: and by Allah, I am not afraid that you will worship others besides Allah after me, but I

am afraid that you will strive and struggle against each other over these treasures of the world."

5.137:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

The Prophet said to the Ansar, "After me you will see others given preference to you; so be patient till

you meet me, and your promised place (of meeting) will be the Tank (i.e. Lake of Kauthar).

5.127:

Narrated Al-Bara:

I heard the Prophet saying (or the Prophet said), "None loves the Ansar but a believer, and none hates

them but a hypocrite. So Allah will love him who loves them, and He will hate him who hates them."

5.128:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

The Prophet said, "The sign of Belief is to love the Ansar, and the sign of hypocrisy is to hate the

Ansar."

fi aman ilah

(wasalam)

Thanks a lot. I didn't have all the hadiths at the bottom, but the rest I had. Thanks

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It would be a good idea to look at munazra's on youtube and previous debates on shiachat. You want to know what questions and arguments he may bring up.

Be ready to explain why Imam Ali (A.S.) named his sons so and so.

Be ready to explain bunch of unrelated questions.

Edited by theinfallibles

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why don't you debate me? i am a sunni.

Then I challenge you to refute my argument of Mutah not being haram and does reflect on the Sunnah of the prophet unlike what your scholars say. Moreover, I have created a thread using sources from your own authentic books to prove that Mutah was practiced at the time of the prophet, Abu Bakr and was eventually banned by Omar when he became the "caliph".

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?%2Ftopic%2F235011006-mutah-is-valid-in-sunnism-according-to-their-books%2F#entry2546034

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give him Tijani's book , "then i was guided"......

and if still he questions you, it means he was just doing that for fun ...

"Then I was Guided" is a good book.

"Peshawar Nights" will answer all the accusations/questions they pose, using sunni sources.

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Then I challenge you to refute my argument of Mutah not being haram and does reflect on the Sunnah of the prophet unlike what your scholars say. Moreover, I have created a thread using sources from your own authentic books to prove that Mutah was practiced at the time of the prophet, Abu Bakr and was eventually banned by Omar when he became the "caliph".

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?%2Ftopic%2F235011006-mutah-is-valid-in-sunnism-according-to-their-books%2F#entry2546034

Come on mujtaba, I will back you up!!

"Then I was Guided" is a good book.

"Peshawar Nights" will answer all the accusations/questions they pose, using sunni sources.

Thank you, I will try to get that.

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Then I challenge you to refute my argument of Mutah not being haram and does reflect on the Sunnah of the prophet unlike what your scholars say. Moreover, I have created a thread using sources from your own authentic books to prove that Mutah was practiced at the time of the prophet, Abu Bakr and was eventually banned by Omar when he became the "caliph".

http://www.shiachat....s/#entry2546034

Three cheers!

Defend Mutah. We are all counting on you!

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