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Syed Hussain

Why Isn't The Ahlybait In The Holy Quran ?

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While i don't doubt Ali a.s. should have succeeded...i do think it would have been clearer to just mention the names or tell us we need to follow the imams after the prophet pbuh. Vested in authority could mean the prophet pbuh's goveners.

Also, God describes salat in a lot more detail and so many more verses explicitly telling us the basics of how to pray so many times.

It would have been better if it were more self evident, but i guess we could say...why didn't God just make torah unchangeable like he did to the Quran.

We will never know lol...for now.

Edited by Rational Thinking

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Even thought we have been blessed with guidance from the all might lord it's our duty to find the true islam, so My PERSONAL Opinion is that it's a test can you find the true islam. There are plenty of hadiths that prove imam Ali (as) to be the successor. And many ideas that it may be abu bakr, but it's your job to find out. That's why I think it's not that informative so we used our brain and fit the puzzles and see the truth. May Allah guide us all

Edited by Syed Hussain

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While i don't doubt Ali a.s. should have succeeded...i do think it would have been clearer to just mention the names or tell us we need to follow the imams after the prophet pbuh. Vested in authority could mean the prophet pbuh's goveners.

Also, God describes salat in a lot more detail and so many more verses explicitly telling us the basics of how to pray so many times.

It would have been better if it were more self evident, but i guess we could say...why didn't God just make torah unchangeable like he did to the Quran.

We will never know lol...for now.

YA you are to some extent will make life easy for every one if Allah has declared all that clearly or may be with names in Holy Quran but remember one thing this LIFE for us is just like Examination time and we have to clear all the Q/A so that the life after Death should be excellent and in EXAMS i bet you you never get questions Straight it will always be twisted and confusing you have to make sure your knowledge and your understanding and ability to find the truth from what you read or understand is matured enough to know wht is right and what is wrong thats why you do not get all things clear you have to use ur brain and heart to get to bootom of the truth and find out what is THE BEST and than what you follow is from the bottom of your heart without any doubts and it will be PURE .

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SalamuAlaikom,

Everything we believe should be based on reason and not on blind following. Just like in the case of some schools of thought saying that Ahlul Bayt includes the wives of the Holy Prophet (SAW). I'm no scholar but based on the the Sunni hadith as well as Shia Ahlul Bayt does not include the wives. So using reason I would come to think 33:33 was in reference to Fatima (as), Ali (as), Hasan (as), and Hussain (as). Allah (SWT) has blessed many of us with the faculty of knowledge and understanding, some of us use it and some don't.

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While i don't doubt Ali a.s. should have succeeded...i do think it would have been clearer to just mention the names or tell us we need to follow the imams after the prophet pbuh. Vested in authority could mean the prophet pbuh's goveners.

Also, God describes salat in a lot more detail and so many more verses explicitly telling us the basics of how to pray so many times.

It would have been better if it were more self evident, but i guess we could say...why didn't God just make torah unchangeable like he did to the Quran.

We will never know lol...for now.

There are more than 20 verses in the Quran on imamate. That's sufficient for those who want to seek knowledge and sincerely worship Allah.

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There are more than 20 verses in the Quran on imamate. That's sufficient for those who want to seek knowledge and sincerely worship Allah.

Not one of them are explicit with regards to imamat after Muhammed pbuh.

God explicitly tells us to pray.

The verses on Imamat can not be directly extrapolated to mean that there will be 12 Imams after Muhammed.

Infact, there is added confusion in that Allah swt says he will not send any messenger after him.

Would it not have been easy to say BUT there will be 12 guides?

I am not doubting Allah swt, or Imamt, i am merely asserting there are ways to stop divisions and make it plain to us , but God knows why he did not.

Edited by Rational Thinking

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That's was explained through the hadiths.

Let me give u a example the mehdis name is not named in the holy quran

But evy sect of islam knows about the mehdi (as) imam e zamana (as)

Similarly the hadiths tell us about this. There will be 12 princes after me

There are many hadiths that state imam Ali (as) will be after him, but people downgrade them... And example Sunnis don't except narrations from maytem e tamar because he loves imam Ali too much.... They always have something to do to not except a hadith, also Allah doesn't leave a world with our a hujja. It wouldn't make sence to.

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al-Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq said that this verse was revealed about Ali ibn Abi Talib, Hasan and Husayn . Upon hearing this, someone asked the Imam: "People say, 'Why did Allah not mention the names of Ali and his family in His Book?'"

The Imam answered: "Tell them that there came the command of salat (prayer), but Allah did not mention whether three or four raka'at (units) (to be performed); it was the Apostle of Allah who explained all the details. And (the command of ) zakat was revealed, but Allah did not say that it is one in every forty dirham; it was the Apostle of Allah who explained it; and hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca) was ordered but Allah did not say to perform tawaf ( circumambulation of the Ka'bah) seven times the Apostle of Allah explained it. Likewise, the verse was revealed: Obey Allah, and obey the Apostle and those vested with authority from among you, and it was revealed about Ali and Hasan and Husayn .

Following issues with above:

  1. Salat, Zakat, and Hajj are branches of religion (Furoo ad-Deen), while Shia's claim Imamat to be the Roots of Religion (Usool ad-Deen). It's comparing apples to oranges. If Imamat was part of Furoo ad-Deen then the above hadith would be consistent.
  2. The concept of Imamat itself is not defined in the Quran like Salat, Hajj, and Zakat. If Imamat was defined (ex "there will be divine successors after the Prophet) and no names/details mentioned then you could've had a case (not a strong one).
  3. There is a difference between practices (salat,hajj, and zakat) and naming a successor. Practices require details to perform, it's an actionable ritual, naming a successor is not hence details is not needed for one sentence, "Ali will be the successor".
  4. Reference?

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Ok Every body calm down. I don't know why some people even bother answering such questions when Sunnis bring them up. Here is the shortest and most logical answer:

The ahlu al-bayt's names are in the Quran, dear Sunni brothers. In the exact same place where you find Abu bakr and Umars names.

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I agree with brother Ali Reza the main reason Alhul Bayt were not mentioned outright in the Quran is because every Khalifa after Imam Ali (as) would have changed Quran to fit his liking. we would be in the same predicament as Christianity, there would be like 10 versions of the Quran by now. If you read

Al-Allamah al-Sayyid Muhammad Husayn at-Tabataba'i tasfseer of the Quran called Al mizan (its translated online) you will find how the Ahlul Bayt were mentioned in great detail all over the Quran. just not outright due to the reason mentioned above.

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The ahlu al-bayt's names are in the Quran, dear Sunni brothers. In the exact same place where you find Abu bakr and Umars names.

Why do you assume only Sunni's bring this up? It's a fundamental issue questioned by Shias and non-Sunnis also. Abu Bakr and Umar's names are not in the Quran, nor were they divine agents, nor are they part of articles of faith, nor does using this ambiguous example confirm Ahlul Bayt. This issue is a Shia issue only, trying to include Sunni fallible personalities to justify the existence of Ahlul Bayt does not help your cause at all.

If God did not mention this fundamental belief of His religion in His holy divine scripture then why are you adding/forcing something He did not define in His fundamental divine book?

Can't you digest a simple logical argument that God did not consider this (Imamat) a fundamental belief hence did not define it in His book?

I agree with brother Ali Reza the main reason Alhul Bayt were not mentioned outright in the Quran is because every Khalifa after Imam Ali (as) would have changed Quran to fit his liking.

So God would've been unable to protect it otherwise like He promised?

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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Hmm there is a concept of 12 leaders. It is in the Quran, so that is established.

But why does Allah swt not simply tell us Muhammed pbuh too will have 12 leaders?

He does it for other prophets pbuh.

You need to analyze the context of the "12" in the Quran, it has nothing to do with 12 divine agents after the Prophet, rather the verses are speaking in past tense, which means it already happened. It clearly states an agreement was broken and them cursed.

[5:11] O ye who believe! Remember Allah's favour unto you, how a people were minded to stretch out their hands against you but He withheld their hands from you; and keep your duty to Allah. In Allah let believers put their trust.

[5:12] Allah made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel and We raised among them twelve chieftains, and Allah said: Lo! I am with you. If ye establish worship and pay the poor-due, and believe in My messengers and support them, and lend unto Allah a kindly loan, surely I shall remit your sins, and surely I shall bring you into Gardens underneath which rivers flow. Whoso among you disbelieveth after this will go astray from a plain road.

[5:13] And because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them and made hard their hearts. They change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from all save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly.

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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So God would've been unable to protect it otherwise like He promised?

Brother Allah (SWT) participates at His own discretion if you curse the Alhul Bayt right now you will not be struck by lightning lol, it is up to you to do research and find out the truth. Human beings are given intellect, use it. everything cannot be spoon fed to you. Alot of the Kings that have come after Imam Ali (as) were mostly Sunni, and wahabi at that there have been a few Shia empires but still they were far from perfect also. why try to break up the Ummah on purpose. if names wer singled out in the Qur'an, that's just asking for jealous people to change its content, true knowledge has to be sought after, you have to aspire to attain it, otherwise if everybody was perfect, and there were no munafiqin then there would be no problems in this world.

Edited by mkazmi

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Here is one of the most famous examples believed by both Shia and Sunni alike that proves Imam Ali (as) is mentioned the Quran.

Verse Of Mastership (Wilayat)

"Verily, your Master is but Allah and His Apostle and those who believe, who establish prayers, and pay the Zakat while bowed in worship." QURAN: 5: 55

The Muslim scholars (Sunni and Shia alike) are agreed that this verse was revealed in honour of Imam Ali Ibin Abe Taleb(as). It clearly shows that there are three Masters for believers. Firstly Allah, secondly His Prophet, and thirdly Ali (with the Eleven succeeding Imams).

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Brother Allah (SWT) participates at His own discretion if you curse the Alhul Bayt right now you will not be struck by lightning lol, it is up to you to do research and find out the truth. Human beings are given intellect, use it. everything cannot be spoon fed to you. Alot of the Kings that have come after Imam Ali (as) were mostly Sunni, and wahabi at that there have been a few Shia empires but still they were far from perfect also. why try to break up the Ummah on purpose. if names wer singled out in the Qur'an, that's just asking for jealous people to change its content, true knowledge has to be sought after, you have to aspire to attain it, otherwise if everybody was perfect, and there were no munafiqin then there would be no problems in this world.

Your post doesn't answer anything except you are trying to give your subjective view on why Ahlul Bayt/names/Imamat were excluded from the Quran.

The facts about the Quran cannot be turned into a subjective discussion. It's a simple logical argument, "God provided one divine holy book with fundamentals about His religion which did not include Imamat/Ahlul Bayt/names, rather the Quran kept repeating that Prophet Muhammad will be the last" (didn't say Prophet Muhammad will be the last prophet but other divine Imams will follow).

These are facts from the Quran, nothing subjective about it.

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You need to analyze the context of the "12" in the Quran, it has nothing to do with 12 divine agents after the Prophet, rather the verses are speaking in past tense, which means it already happened. It clearly states an agreement was broken and them cursed.

[5:11] O ye who believe! Remember Allah's favour unto you, how a people were minded to stretch out their hands against you but He withheld their hands from you; and keep your duty to Allah. In Allah let believers put their trust.

[5:12] Allah made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel and We raised among them twelve chieftains, and Allah said: Lo! I am with you. If ye establish worship and pay the poor-due, and believe in My messengers and support them, and lend unto Allah a kindly loan, surely I shall remit your sins, and surely I shall bring you into Gardens underneath which rivers flow. Whoso among you disbelieveth after this will go astray from a plain road.

[5:13] And because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them and made hard their hearts. They change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from all save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly.

5:13 isnt referring to the 12 chosen. Its referring to the people who broke their covenant by not accepting the promised prophet :

Refer to al Baqarah: 40 for the covenant taken from Bani Israil to accept the Holy Prophet as the promised prophet, which they did not fulfill; and to deny the genuineness of his divine mission they corrupted the books sent to their prophets.

Allah curses the people who break their pledge. So the Muslims should take precaution and avoid to act like the Jews. It is incumbent upon the Muslims to remain attached with the covenant the Holy Prophet bound them with at Ghadir Khum. They must also safeguard themselves from misinterpreting the Quran in order to keep away the curse of Allah which will certainly be upon them if they, like the Jews, distort the true meanings of the book of Allah to serve their worldly interests.

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i do think it would have been clearer to just mention the names or tell us we need to follow the imams after the prophet pbuh.

Can't you digest a simple logical argument that God did not consider this (Imamat) a fundamental belief hence did not define it in His book?

Hmmm...

According to the Hadiths , Allah sent 124000 Prophets (as)- But there are only 25 mentioned by name in Quran.....! Do you EVER question the Names nd Existance of the remaining 123975 Prophets(as)??

the answer to this is simple...

Allah informs us, Prophet(s) explains the details...

same goes for your question of mentioning AhalBayt(as) and the 12 Imams(as).

....

Edited by goharjanjua

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I agree with brother Ali Reza the main reason Alhul Bayt were not mentioned outright in the Quran is because every Khalifa after Imam Ali (as) would have changed Quran to fit his liking. we would be in the same predicament as Christianity, there would be like 10 versions of the Quran by now. If you read

Al-Allamah al-Sayyid Muhammad Husayn at-Tabataba'i tasfseer of the Quran called Al mizan (its translated online) you will find how the Ahlul Bayt were mentioned in great detail all over the Quran. just not outright due to the reason mentioned above.

Can't God protect the Qur'an?

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5:13 isnt referring to the 12 chosen. Its referring to the people who broke their covenant by not accepting the promised prophet

5:12. And yes, it's not.

Refer to al Baqarah: 40 for the covenant taken from Bani Israil to accept the Holy Prophet as the promised prophet, which they did not fulfill; and to deny the genuineness of his divine mission they corrupted the books sent to their prophets.

Above has no mention of the "12".

Imamate is Furoo ad-Deen.

http://shia.org/fundamental.html

Hmmm...

According to the Hadiths , Allah sent 124000 Prophets (as)- But there are only 25 mentioned by name in Quran.....! Do you EVER question the Names nd Existance of the remaining 123975 Prophets(as)??

the answer to this is simple...

Allah informs us, Prophet(s) explains the details...

same goes for your question of mentioning AhalBayt(as) and the 12 Imams(as).

Did Allah mention there were many Prophets in the Quran? Yes.

Did Allah mention there are going to be divine Imams after the Prophet in the Quran? No.

Did Allah mention names of any of the of Prophets in the Quran? Yes.

Did Allah mention names of any of the divine Imams in the Quran? No.

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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5:12. And yes, it's not.

Above has no mention of the "12".

http://shia.org/fundamental.html

Did Allah mention there were many Prophets in the Quran? Yes.

Did Allah mention there are going to be divine Imams after the Prophet in the Quran? No.

Did Allah mention names of any of the of Prophets in the Quran? Yes.

Did Allah mention names of any of the divine Imams in the Quran? No.

did Allah mention how to pray, how to perform hajj, jurisprudence, fiq? no he doesnt need to because the prophet told us. If everything is in the quran then why did he send a messenger? couldnt he have just sent a book? the fact is to be a muslim: you must believe in Allah and the prophets, if you break any of these rules your not a muslim. Now conditionally if you believe in the prophet you follow him-sunnah. We believe our prophet choose his successor and their are hints of imamate in the quran whether you wanna deny it or not. Imam is all over the quran. There is no way Allah will keep the humankind misguided after he sent 124000 prophets. Plus, people can prone to change the religion of Allah, who will protect it? What happened to the jews when the prophet left them for a couple of days? What do you think will happen to us without an imam....I can already see the consequences of those who dont believe in the truth...

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So what if Allah (swt) hasn't mentioned it clearly in the Quran? This is a test of your faith; a test of your faith, belief, logic & reasoning. If it were this easy we all would be awarded Jannat ul Firdous!

If we wouldn't trust just any doctor or a lawyer with our matters, then how is it different when it comes to Religion? Don't follow any cleric or maulana blindly.

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did Allah mention how to pray, how to perform hajj, jurisprudence, fiq? no he doesnt need to because the prophet told us. If everything is in the quran then why did he send a messenger? couldnt he have just sent a book? the fact is to be a muslim: you must believe in Allah and the prophets, if you break any of these rules your not a muslim. Now conditionally if you believe in the prophet you follow him-sunnah. We believe our prophet choose his successor and their are hints of imamate in the quran whether you wanna deny it or not. Imam is all over the quran. There is no way Allah will keep the humankind misguided after he sent 124000 prophets. Plus, people can prone to change the religion of Allah, who will protect it? What happened to the jews when the prophet left them for a couple of days? What do you think will happen to us without an imam....I can already see the consequences of those who dont believe in the truth...

Already answered, post 10

http://www.shiachat....n/#entry2553647

So what if Allah (swt) hasn't mentioned it clearly in the Quran? This is a test of your faith; a test of your faith, belief, logic & reasoning. If it were this easy we all would be awarded Jannat ul Firdous!

Or a test to not deviate from the fundamentals Allah has clearly defined in the Quran.

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Following issues with above:

  1. Salat, Zakat, and Hajj are branches of religion (Furoo ad-Deen), while Shia's claim Imamat to be the Roots of Religion (Usool ad-Deen). It's comparing apples to oranges. If Imamat was part of Furoo ad-Deen then the above hadith would be consistent.

This is wrong; you are looking at this hadith through the lens of normative Shiism. These divisions and classifications came later and are not enumerated in the actual hadith; at the end of the day, the hadith is correct in asserting that imamate is an essential part of Islam just as the other items are and rejection of any of them is the equivalent of rejecting Islam.

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This is wrong; you are looking at this hadith through the lens of normative Shiism. These divisions and classifications came later and are not enumerated in the actual hadith; at the end of the day,

We are not looking at hadiths, we are looking at the Quran for fundamentals of Allah's religion.

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Can't God protect the Qur'an?

By not placing the names of the Ahlul Bayt he is protecting the Qur'an, from jealous zealots that came after Imam Ali AS. like i mentioned before read Al Mizan by Al-Allamah al-Sayyid Muhammad Husayn at-Tabataba'i. The names of the Ahlul Bayt are everywhere in the Quran.

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I could have sworn theres a verse in the Quran that says to respect the Ahlul bayt but I could be wrong

God wishes to remove all filth and impurity from you, O Ahlulbayt of the Prophet, and to render you utterly free of all pollution. (33:33)

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Although the names of 14 purified ones have not been given in Quran, but the quran describes the path leading towards TRUE Tauheed. I have conducted some reseacrh and presenting the article named as Tauheed. Readers may find information on the numerical analysis of verses showing how the path of 14 purified ones leads to True Tauheed?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/128129376/Quranic-Concept-of-Tauheed

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We are not looking at hadiths, we are looking at the Quran for fundamentals of Allah's religion.

Well, then you can do two things:

1. Look at 20 or so verses in the Quran that talk about Imamate.

2. Look at the definition of bay`at in the Shari`ah and you'll come to an answer.

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Well, then you can do two things:

1. Look at 20 or so verses in the Quran that talk about Imamate.

2. Look at the definition of bay`at in the Shari`ah and you'll come to an answer.

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركته

I think UJ forgets the fact that the Qur`aan and Sunnah were revealed together, and our Prophet was not just a mail man:

عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ خَالِدٍ عَنْ إِسْمَاعِيلَ بْنِ مِهْرَانَ عَنْ سَيْفِ بْنِ عَمِيرَةَ عَنْ أَبِي الْمَغْرَاءِ عَنْ سَمَاعَةَ عَنْ أَبِي الْحَسَنِ مُوسَى ع قَالَ قُلْتُ لَهُ أَ كُلُّ شَيْ‏ءٍ فِي كِتَابِ اللَّهِ وَ سُنَّةِ نَبِيِّهِ ص أَوْ تَقُولُونَ فِيهِ قَالَ بَلْ كُلُّ شَيْ‏ءٍ فِي كِتَابِ اللَّهِ وَ سُنَّةِ نَبِيِّهِ ص

From Samaa`ah from Abee Al-Hasan Moosa (عليه السلام) said, I said to him (عليه السلام): “Is everything in the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of his Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), or do you have a say in it?” He (عليه السلام) said: “Rather, everything is in the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of his Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)”

Kitaab al-Kaafi Fee `Ilm ad-Deen volume 1 pp. 62 Hadeeth 10 graded Mowatthiq by al-Majlisi (Mirat al-`Oqool volume 1 pp. 209)

It's all within the Qur`aan, but the Qur`aan requires the Sunnah alongside it to get the perfect meaning/Tafseer. Otherwise something like Olil Amr can become anyone who holds power, and Ahl al-Bayt who were purified could be anyone from the Prophet [saawaws]'s family.

و السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركته

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Following issues with above:

  1. Salat, Zakat, and Hajj are branches of religion (Furoo ad-Deen), while Shia's claim Imamat to be the Roots of Religion (Usool ad-Deen). It's comparing apples to oranges. If Imamat was part of Furoo ad-Deen then the above hadith would be consistent.
  2. The concept of Imamat itself is not defined in the Quran like Salat, Hajj, and Zakat. If Imamat was defined (ex "there will be divine successors after the Prophet) and no names/details mentioned then you could've had a case (not a strong one).
  3. There is a difference between practices (salat,hajj, and zakat) and naming a successor. Practices require details to perform, it's an actionable ritual, naming a successor is not hence details is not needed for one sentence, "Ali will be the successor".
  4. Reference?

These points you have mentioned with regard to your previous post. Here are my issues with it. The hadith is talking about names. Names do not fall under usool ad-deen. Meaning: if we have no names, we have no usool ad-deen. As I said before names are not important. Even if names were part of, you still cant question since qualities are mentioned and again there is wisdom behind it.

2) Concept of imamat have been defined in the Quran and books have been writen where it is explained and narrations/verses have been quoted to support it.

Edited by race

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