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Syed Hussain

Why Isn't The Ahlybait In The Holy Quran ?

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Communication and revelations are 2 different things, I've already stated that in Post 66. So that's not exactly what you said, you actually equated communicating to an angel to revelation.

So trying to use verses from the Quran regarding revelation to justify Imamat is erroneous, and clearly stated by Shia scholar. Hence you cannot use the verses regarding revelation to justify Imamat (which all of you are unknowingly doing).

wait wait wait, hold up! We never said Imams received laws (revelation) from Allah. We are saying the doctrine of Imamate is in the quran, regarding those verses. That is two different things bro. Please dont change the discussion. Also answer my questions please...

Edited by pureethics

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Now you are using an example to compare Satan to Imam? :wacko:

Satan is not a human, same rules don't apply. Case closed.

Hence you should stop with your examples, and go easy on the insults.

Here we ago again. Same pathetic logic. You can't comprehend that when you compare two things you compare a certain aspect and you still haven't comprehended the fact that using examples is a Quranic concept. So go fool yourself.

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wait wait wait, hold up! We never said Imams received laws (revelation) from Allah. We are saying the doctrine of Imamate is in the quran, regarding those verses. That is two different things bro. Please dont change the discussion. Also answer my questions please...

You made the mistake of using the word "revelation". Regardless, I never had an issue with communication via angel or vision, etc. But Imams can't receive any religious commandments or revelations. Nothing can change divine laws.

Which question are you talking about? I've countered all the verses so far.

Here we ago again. Same pathetic logic. You can't comprehend that when you compare two things you compare a certain aspect and you still haven't comprehended the fact that using examples is a Quranic concept. So go fool yourself.

....and that's why qiyas is haram.

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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Here we ago again. Same pathetic logic. You can't comprehend that when you compare two things you compare a certain aspect and you still haven't comprehended the fact that using examples is a Quranic concept. So go fool yourself.

....and that's why qiyas is haram.

Just as I though a Wahhabi troll making a fool of himself. I already answered you once:

Examples are not used to justify a belief. They are used so that people like you who have a problem comprehending simple matters can grasp the concept being discussed. The same technique is used a lot in the Quran for the same reason:

الإسراء : 89 وَ لَقَدْ صَرَّفْنا لِلنَّاسِ في‏ هذَا الْقُرْآنِ مِنْ كُلِّ مَثَلٍ فَأَبى‏ أَكْثَرُ النَّاسِ إِلاَّ كُفُوراً

Quran 17:89: We have mentioned in this Quran all kinds of examples for the human being, but most human beings turn away in disbelief.

I'll leave the judgment to others and I will no longer waste my time answering the garbage you keep on repeating.

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You made the mistake of using the word "revelation". Regardless, I never had an issue with communication via angel or vision, etc. But Imams can't receive any religious commandments or revelations. Nothing can change divine laws.

Which question are you talking about? I've countered all the verses so far.

....and that's why qiyas is haram.

Your opinion is not proof against a claim. So sayin imams can't be divine when we have shown you imams must be divinly appointed and why they are needed and such. Also you did not answer ANY of my questions and I'm glad this is public so all can see how you dodge and manipulate words just so you can keep this conversation going when in fact you were lost to begin with. This post you just made shows you have no more excuses left. I suggest you take a look at this thread again and read ALL your posts....

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Your opinion is not proof against a claim. So sayin imams can't be divine when we have shown you imams must be divinly appointed and why they are needed and such. Also you did not answer ANY of my questions and I'm glad this is public so all can see how you dodge and manipulate words just so you can keep this conversation going when in fact you were lost to begin with. This post you just made shows you have no more excuses left. I suggest you take a look at this thread again and read ALL your posts....

I'm presenting opinions and you are presenting....facts? :wacko: We are using common sense and logic, that's all.

You have shown no proof whatesoever regarding Imams being divine, no proof whatsoever from the Quran regarding divine successors after the Prophet, no proof whatsoever about the concept of Imamat in the Quran.

All you did was splash out of context verses that have the word Imam/Authority/Etc. (most relating to scriptures hence Porphets) and created a new concept. It's no different than Ismail's justifying their Imam Agha Khan using the same approach. Heck even Sunnis can use this approach to make their 3 divine also if they wanted to.

And communication has nothing to with being divine, even a non-divine human can be communicated to.

Non-prophets can get divine communications, the Quran says so.

Sure, no disagreement there. Even non-Imams can be communicated to.

Hence using communication doesn't mean one is divine. Not only that, it can't even be proven from the Quran that communication has been made to the Imams you follow even though they were alive with the Quran was being revealed.

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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I'm presenting opinions and you are presenting....facts? :wacko: We are using common sense and logic, that's all.

You have shown no proof whatesoever regarding Imams being divine, no proof whatsoever from the Quran regarding divine successors after the Prophet, no proof whatsoever about the concept of Imamat in the Quran.

All you did was splash out of context verses that has the word Imam/Authority/Etc. (most relating to scriptures hence Porphets) and created a new concept.

And equating communication has nothing to with being divine, even a non-divine human can be communicated to.

Sure, no disagreement there. Even non-Imams can be communicated.

Still has nothing to the with the topic at hand.

your right I "splashed" words out...you still havnt answered any of my questions...I have shown you all verses in which literally show prophets giving the status of an imam and that Allah says all of us will be risen with our imams, meaning selected imams from our generation, I have shown you Allah CHOOSES HIS AUTHORITY, not people. I have shown you the prophets family is purified meaning free from sin and error. Now it comes down to with you think really. You can think what ever you want. But saying, "Imam is just in the quran for no reason isnt proof against it....

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You have shown no proof whatesoever regarding Imams being divine, no proof whatsoever from the Quran regarding divine successors after the Prophet, no proof whatsoever about the concept of Imamat in the Quran.

We have provided you with enough proof and we countered you logically but you could not provide satisfying answers. Its not you who decides the meaning of the word imamat in the Quran. The prophet and Ahlulbayt will tell us and they have proven imamat from the Quran beyond doubt. So stop giving false meanings to verses and terms saying this means this, here the word imamat can be for falliable people and so on. Please give us proof from the Quran and hadith to back up what you say. Please tell me where Allah says you can follow a falliable individual. Please give proof from the Quran and dont change the topic. If Ahlulbayt tell us that this phrase is regarding imamat then the concept of imamat is proven and it can still be proven if they remained quiet but you are looking at only one or two verses and not the whole Quran. This is not the correct way in understanding the Quran and taking verses out of context. We hope the imam chosen by Allah who will appear and fill the world with justice, and whom following is obligatory on every muslim makes his appearance soon so truth can be distinguished from falsehood and those who have taken the wrong interpretation of the Quran will be corrected.

Edited by race

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God wishes to remove all filth and impurity from you, O Ahlulbayt of the Prophet, and to render you utterly free of all pollution. (33:33)

In post #80, you say the prophet’s family is purified. In post #31, you give verse 33:33 as proof. Maybe Arabic is your native language and English is your second language?

In the English language, sentences have subjects, verbs and objects. There are nouns, pronouns, adjectives and adverbs. Some sentences have implied subjects. In verse 33:33, Allah is making a WISH. Some translators (like Yusuf Ali) say: “only wishes.” The word “only” is an adverb. It means Allah is ONLY talking about a WISH.

This is a link to a video where a person talks about the word WISH in sentences.

http://www.engvid.co...sh-subjunctive/

This link explains the word WISH… “the main use of 'wish' is to say that we would like things to be different from what they are, that we have regrets about the present situation.”

http://www.english-g...m/wish/menu.php

When thinking or pondering about the meaning of verse 33:33, these questions will help. Who are the filthy ones? Who are the impure ones? Who is doing the wishing? What is He wishing for?

Verse 33:33 is a compound sentence. This link will help you answer the last question.

http://grammar.ccc.c...ning_skills.htm

I hope these links will help you discover the meaning for verse 33:33.

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In post #80, you say the prophet’s family is purified. In post #31, you give verse 33:33 as proof. Maybe Arabic is your native language and English is your second language?

In the English language, sentences have subjects, verbs and objects. There are nouns, pronouns, adjectives and adverbs. Some sentences have implied subjects. In verse 33:33, Allah is making a WISH. Some translators (like Yusuf Ali) say: “only wishes.” The word “only” is an adverb. It means Allah is ONLY talking about a WISH.

This is a link to a video where a person talks about the word WISH in sentences.

http://www.engvid.co...sh-subjunctive/

This link explains the word WISH… “the main use of 'wish' is to say that we would like things to be different from what they are, that we have regrets about the present situation.”

http://www.english-g...m/wish/menu.php

When thinking or pondering about the meaning of verse 33:33, these questions will help. Who are the filthy ones? Who are the impure ones? Who is doing the wishing? What is He wishing for?

Verse 33:33 is a compound sentence. This link will help you answer the last question.

http://grammar.ccc.c...ning_skills.htm

I hope these links will help you discover the meaning for verse 33:33.

nice try...but it seems your not familiar with the quran nor Allah.Wish is not literal and besides God DOESNT "wish", he says be and it is. Read arabic and look at the grammar. Also dont rely on exact translation because there are many and bound to be imperfect. Arabic to english has many holes for terms. Besides there is a hadith called Hadith Kisa which is 100% authentic from shia and sunni sources, if you want ill post all sources, which supports this verse to them being purified. Also dont forget Surah Mubahila and whom the prophet took with him...

Innama implies the determined decision or will of Allah. Although the decision of a created being may not take effect at all, but the will of Allah takes immediate effect. There cannot be a slightest gap of time or space in the will of Allah taking effect. When He commands: "Be"; it becomes. Refer to Baqarah: 117; Nahl: 40 Maryolm: 35; Ya Sin 83; Mumin: 68 and Qamar 50. It is not only the will of Allah but the declaration of its effect. Since the Ahl ul Bayt have been thoroughly purified, they remain thoroughly purified for ever. The prayer of Ibrahim in Baqarah: 127 to 129 is prayed to continue the excellence in themselves and in their descendants mentioned in Baqarah: 124. When a quality or attribute is described or mentioned in indefinite sense it refers to the perfect possibility. The purity in this verse is absolute purity. Polytheism (shirk) is described in the Quran as impurity and also the greatest iniquity (refer to Luqman : 13). Refer to the commentary of Baqarah: 124 for the condition that imamah is not bestowed on those who have ever (even once in their lives) worshipped any ghayrallah. All the companions of the Holy Prophet and his wives were polytheists before embracing Islam. Only the Holy Prophet, Ali, Fatimah, Hasan and Husayn were at that time free from the dirt of shirk, therefore they alone could be throughly purified.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

(i) Innama (verily or only) signifies exclusive distinction. To emphasise this exclusiveness, the second object of the verb yudh-hiba (keep off)-the phrase ankum (from you)-has been put before the first object rijs (uncleanness); and for further emphasis, the phrase Ahl ul Bayt has been mentioned to explain the pronoun ankum (from you). The grammatical structure of the whole clause indicates that this a unique privilege or distinction granted to the Ahl ul Bayt only, excluding all others.

(ii)

The verb yuridu implies that the continuous will or intention of Allah is His creative will or intention, not legislative. To interpret the will as the legislative will as in Ma-idah: 6, distorts the whole fabric of the verse and renders meaningless the exclusive particle and the constructional arrangement. Even then it means that only the Ahl ul Bayt exclusively achieved the standard.

(iii) This verse is a preface to verses 77 to 79 of al Waqi-ah: "Verily this is an honourable (Karim) Quran, in a hidden (preserved) book, which no one can touch save the purified." (Refer to page 3.)

(iv) The excellences of Ahl ul Bayt have been openly demonstrated in the event of mubahilah (refer to the commentary of Ali Imran : 61).

(v) The Ahl ul Bayt had only been thoroughly purified by Allah because of their total submission to Allah's will and their state of being always in communion with Allah.

Go to Quran.Al-Islam.org and select ch 33 and verse 33, and you will see everything.

Edited by pureethics

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your right I "splashed" words out...you still havnt answered any of my questions...I have shown you all verses in which literally show prophets giving the status of an imam and that Allah says all of us will be risen with our imams, meaning selected imams from our generation, I have shown you Allah CHOOSES HIS AUTHORITY, not people. I have shown you the prophets family is purified meaning free from sin and error. Now it comes down to with you think really. You can think what ever you want. But saying, "Imam is just in the quran for no reason isnt proof against it....

So let's summarize all the verses you splashed:

1) [2:30]

The verse is clearly speaking about Prophets, more specifically about Prophet Adam's story, if you read the following verse the "caliph" was named:

[2:30] "And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif.."

[2:31] "And He taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels;

God is speaking to angels and notifies them of Adam. You erroneously are trying to define 12 divine Imams using this verse out of context. The verse is speaking about Prophet Adam being assigned to Earth. You still haven't admitted your mistake.

-----

2) The you used verse [38:26] " o Dawood ! surely We have made you a ruler in the land;"

God has made Dawud, who is a Prophet, a ruler in the land and the verse continues to tell Dawud to be just. And you are equating that to 12 Imams?! This has nothing to do with 12 Imams. You again are attempting to use a verse regarding a story of a Prophet and justify 12 divine Imams.

By the way I'm using Shakir translation, who is a Shia.

---

3) Then you used [2:124] "And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He."

Again, it's seems like the same pattern you keep using. God is speaking about Prophet Ibrahim, He calls him Imam also. Let me repeat, God calls Prophet Ibrahim an Imam, no one else in that verse.

---

4) [21:73] - Again, you are using verses which are speaking of Prophets only and you keep erroneously trying to jusity 12 Imams.

Read the verse prior to 21:73

[21:72] And We gave him Ishaq and Yaqoub, a son's son, and We made (them) all good.

[21:73] And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve;

The verse is speaking of Ishaq and Yaqoub only, no one else. God made those 2 Imams, no one else. Not only that, the verse clearly states that God made revelations to them. 12 Imams cannot receive revelations, hence this has nothing to do with 12 Imams. This verse is regarding Prophets only.

----

5) [20:29] = Again, this verse is speaking about Prophet Haroun

[20:29] And give to me an aider from my family:

[20:30] Haroun, my brother,

Nothing to do with 12 divine successors after Prophet Muhammed, none whatsoever.

----

6) Then you splashed verse [17:71] (Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly.

Already answered in Post 53.

----

7) [32:23-24]. Again, you used a verse which is speaking about Prophets receiving revelations/commandments and equating to 12 Imams which cannot receive neither.

[32:23] And certainly We gave the Book to Musa, so be not in doubt concerning the receiving of it, and We made it a guide for the children of Israel.

[32:24] And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.

I'm hoping you can review this with a clear unbiased head and see how flawed your argument is. Almost every verse is speaking about Prophets only, not only that it specifically names the Prophets God is speaking to.

-------

Just to add:

8) You also made huge fundamental mistakes:

  • You said "communication to Maryam is revelation" (Post 68). Answer: No, only Prophets can receive revelations. Communication does not equate to revelations. I also posted a clear answer from Ayatollah Lankarani (Post 69)
  • You said in same post, "saying imams cant receive revelation from Allah is blatantly wrong. Answer: Above. Anyways, a terminology error on your part.

9) You first made an argument in Post 24 that the Quran doesn't mention alot of stuff (hajj, salat, etc.). At this point you are admitting the concept of Imamat is absent from the Quran.

My Answer: My answer is that the concepts of salat, hajj, etc. were clearly mentioned in the Quran, but the concept of Imamat wasn't.

http://www.shiachat....n/#entry2553647

----

10) The you used an example in Post 40, saying, "its like saying your grandpa told your dad to tell you to do something, your dad tells you to do it, you say "but my grandpa needs to say it, i cant do it until my grandpa says it" if you dont understand, in this analogy, your dad is the prophet and your grandpa is god, god commanded the prophet to have a successor, and he chooses his successor but people say but god didnt say it.

My Answer: Analogy is flawed. Grandpa told your dad to say something. Dad did say something via only divine source (Quran). It did not include a divine successor.

----

Also:

So let's summarize this thread:

1) Did the Quran mention that there will be 12 divine successors after the Prophet? No.

2) Did the Quran mention any names of the 12 Imams? No.

3) Did Quran define the concept of Imamat (there will be divine Imams)? No.

4) All the verse you provided were mostly related to Prophets, all replied above.

I've answered all your questions, let me know which question I missed.

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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You folk need to extinguish that flame of bias that follows you everywhere. Ugly Jinn makes a reasonable argument. There is only an indirect affirmation of successorship in verse:-

:Quran 5:67] O Messenger! deliver what has been revealed to you from your Lord; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message, and Allah will protect you from the people; surely Allah will not guide the unbelieving people.

You can inductively infer the mentioning of the first Imam in this verse if you examine the context in which it was revealed, and the way in which the verse has been structured. The following divine authorities are retrieved from narratives, can't be found in the Qur'an but only in books like al-Kafi.

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Did the Quran mention that there will be 12 divine successors after the Prophet?

That's explanation of verse (4:59) it comes with Sunnah (which is type of revelation)

Did the Quran mention any names of the 12 Imams?

That comes also with Sunnah (which is type of revelation)

Did Quran define the concept of Imamat (there will be divine Imams)

All the verse you provided were mostly related to Prophets, all replied above.

You just proved that you know nothing about Imamah :lol:

Shaykh as-Sadooq (ra) states:

''I would seek guidance from Allah and reply that our rivals have been ignorant in this matter. If they had pondered a bit and kept away from persistence and hatred, they would have already known that it is necessary that the characteristics of a prophet should be present exactly for an Imam. It is so because prophets are the source of Imamate. They are successors of prophets and the proof of Allah on the people after the prophets so that the proof of Allah and his commandments are not invalidated and it is obligatory for the people to obey them.''

Kamal al-Deen by Shaykh as-Sadooq, Vol 1, page 37,

وَجَعَلْنَاهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَهْدُونَ بِأَمْرِنَا وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْهِمْ فِعْلَ الْخَيْرَاتِ وَإِقَامَ الصَّلَاةِ وَإِيتَاءَ الزَّكَاةِ ۖ وَكَانُوا لَنَا عَابِدِينَ

And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve;

Quran (21:73)

وَنُرِيدُ أَنْ نَمُنَّ عَلَى الَّذِينَ اسْتُضْعِفُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَنَجْعَلَهُمْ أَئِمَّةً وَنَجْعَلَهُمُ الْوَارِثِينَ

And We desired to bestow a favor upon those who were deemed weak in the land, and to make them the Imams, and to make them the heirs,

Quran (28:5)

وَجَعَلْنَا مِنْهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَهْدُونَ بِأَمْرِنَا لَمَّا صَبَرُوا ۖ وَكَانُوا بِآيَاتِنَا يُوقِنُونَ

And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.

Quran (32:24)

Edited by Rasul

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So let's summarize all the verses you splashed:

1) [2:30]

The verse is clearly speaking about Prophets, more specifically about Prophet Adam's story, if you read the following verse the "caliph" was named:

[2:30] "And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif.."

[2:31] "And He taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels;

God is speaking to angels and notifies them of Adam. You erroneously are trying to define 12 divine Imams using this verse out of context. The verse is speaking about Prophet Adam being assigned to Earth. You still haven't admitted your mistake.

-----

2) The you used verse [38:26] " o Dawood ! surely We have made you a ruler in the land;"

God has made Dawud, who is a Prophet, a ruler in the land and the verse continues to tell Dawud to be just. And you are equating that to 12 Imams?! This has nothing to do with 12 Imams. You again are attempting to use a verse regarding a story of a Prophet and justify 12 divine Imams.

By the way I'm using Shakir translation, who is a Shia.

---

3) Then you used [2:124] "And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He."

Again, it's seems like the same pattern you keep using. God is speaking about Prophet Ibrahim, He calls him Imam also. Let me repeat, God calls Prophet Ibrahim an Imam, no one else in that verse.

---

4) [21:73] - Again, you are using verses which are speaking of Prophets only and you keep erroneously trying to jusity 12 Imams.

Read the verse prior to 21:73

[21:72] And We gave him Ishaq and Yaqoub, a son's son, and We made (them) all good.

[21:73] And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve;

The verse is speaking of Ishaq and Yaqoub only, no one else. God made those 2 Imams, no one else. Not only that, the verse clearly states that God made revelations to them. 12 Imams cannot receive revelations, hence this has nothing to do with 12 Imams. This verse is regarding Prophets only.

----

5) [20:29] = Again, this verse is speaking about Prophet Haroun

[20:29] And give to me an aider from my family:

[20:30] Haroun, my brother,

Nothing to do with 12 divine successors after Prophet Muhammed, none whatsoever.

----

6) Then you splashed verse [17:71] (Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly.

Already answered in Post 53.

----

7) [32:23-24]. Again, you used a verse which is speaking about Prophets receiving revelations/commandments and equating to 12 Imams which cannot receive neither.

[32:23] And certainly We gave the Book to Musa, so be not in doubt concerning the receiving of it, and We made it a guide for the children of Israel.

[32:24] And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.

I'm hoping you can review this with a clear unbiased head and see how flawed your argument is. Almost every verse is speaking about Prophets only, not only that it specifically names the Prophets God is speaking to.

-------

Just to add:

8) You also made huge fundamental mistakes:

  • You said "communication to Maryam is revelation" (Post 68). Answer: No, only Prophets can receive revelations. Communication does not equate to revelations. I also posted a clear answer from Ayatollah Lankarani (Post 69)
  • You said in same post, "saying imams cant receive revelation from Allah is blatantly wrong. Answer: Above. Anyways, a terminology error on your part.

9) You first made an argument in Post 24 that the Quran doesn't mention alot of stuff (hajj, salat, etc.). At this point you are admitting the concept of Imamat is absent from the Quran.

My Answer: My answer is that the concepts of salat, hajj, etc. were clearly mentioned in the Quran, but the concept of Imamat wasn't.

http://www.shiachat....n/#entry2553647

----

10) The you used an example in Post 40, saying, "its like saying your grandpa told your dad to tell you to do something, your dad tells you to do it, you say "but my grandpa needs to say it, i cant do it until my grandpa says it" if you dont understand, in this analogy, your dad is the prophet and your grandpa is god, god commanded the prophet to have a successor, and he chooses his successor but people say but god didnt say it.

My Answer: Analogy is flawed. Grandpa told your dad to say something. Dad did say something via only divine source (Quran). It did not include a divine successor.

----

Also:

So let's summarize this thread:

1) Did the Quran mention that there will be 12 divine successors after the Prophet? No.

2) Did the Quran mention any names of the 12 Imams? No.

3) Did Quran define the concept of Imamat (there will be divine Imams)? No.

4) All the verse you provided were mostly related to Prophets, all replied above.

I've answered all your questions, let me know which question I missed.

First off, i dont think shakir is a shia, even so, I dont care. I dont take the quran as a literal only book. Second, Arabic to English isnt accurate ever, so for you to be using one type of translation for proof doesnt chnage or affect anything at all for your position. Ill keep telling you till this goes through your ignorant brain. We SHIAS believe, some prophets can be IMAMS. All Prophets ARE NOT Imams. Imams are leaders/protectors of people who are already Muslim. All Prophets and Messengers came to DISBELIEVERS. IMAMS are FOR believers.

1. One thing verse 2:30 is showing is that Allah ALWAYS APPOINTS A GUIDE FOR HIS CREATION. In fact this is a proof that it is incumbent on Allah to send a leader after the seal of Prophets because we are always in need of an example. Prophets were there to show us a living example of pure morality and ethics and way of life. Also to bring us revelations. The problem is though, religion is always subject to change and interference by fallible beings. How can you keep this message alive with truth? Simple, Divinely chosen Imam, who helps mankind as they grow from era to era, and to keep the Religion of Allah intact and pure. If you say Quran is always perfect. I tell you, one, everything is not in the quran. Two, people can always change the meaning to their own benefits, extremists for example. Also, we need someone who knows the sunnah of the prophet perfectly and knows the true tafsir of Allah. Allah does not put a burden that which they cannot handle, so Im sure he is not willing to just "leave" us after prophets. Adam, is an Imam as well, as it says here.

2. This verse is just showing once again Allah always chooses his ViceSergeant, and that He always has one.

3. It seems to me you dont understand the english language, nor arabic. If you read the previous verses, its pertaining to PROPHET IBRAHIM. HE WAS A PROPHET BEFORE HIS TRIALS. When Allah tested him, and he passed, Allah MADE him into an IMAM. Meaning, IMAMATE is higher than PROPHETHOOD. Also showing IMAMATE IS RELEVANT AND SIGNIFICANT. It means that a prophet is not necessarily an Imam and imamat is an office of a decidedly higher order which is granted only when one proves himself suitable and worthy after undergoing a test. "Verily, I make you an Imam for mankind" clearly indicates that like risalat, imamat is also bestowed upon the chosen representatives of Allah by Allah Himself. It is a position no one, however virtuous or godly he may be, not even Ibrahim, the prophet of Allah, could claim for himself, nor can it be conferred on any one by any individual, group or community. It is an exclusively divine action. The word kalimat has been used here in the same sense invested in verse 37 of this surah-Allah turned to Adam mercifully when he received the kalimat from his Lord. Imam of mankind, yet he had no right to hand over the office of imamat to his descendants, therefore, he requested Allah to let his descendants inherit it. He could only pray for it, which he did. And it is Allah who alone has the right to appoint an Imam. "My covenant does not include the zalim (unjust)" indicates that imamat is given only to those who have not sinned. Only an infallible can be an Imam.

Zalim (unjust) in the view of the Quran, is he who worships, or has worshipped a ghayrallah. Shirk (idolatry) in the words of the Quran is the greatest zulm or injustice. Therefore he who, at any time in his life, has been a mushrik (idolater) can never be an Imam. Besides the Holy Prophet there was no one, among his companions, who had not been an idol-worshipper, save his cousin, Ali ibna abi Talib, who alone could be rightfully chosen by providence "to receive the covenant of imamat". The Holy Prophet, therefore, under the command of Allah transferred the imamat to Ali, and after Ali to the eleven Imams in the progeny of Muhammad and Ali. In this way the covenant of Allah with Ibrahim was fulfilled, and in the progeny of Isma-il the twelve princes, the twelve holy Imams, were born.

Therefore there must be an infallible Imam, a divinely commissioned guide, with power and authority delegated to him by Allah, in every age, to keep the people on the right path and direct them unto the destination determined by the merciful Lord of the worlds.

The office of imamat is not hereditary. It is Allah's covenant, which is only bestowed upon an infallible devotee of Allah who comes out successful from the tests and trials specifically prescribed for him by Allah. A sinner or a forgiven sinner cannot be an Imam. The names of the twelve Imams, the descendants of Ibrahim in the progeny of Isma-il, divinely commissioned in fulfilment of the covenant made with Ibrahim, are given below:

(According to verse 33 of Ali Imran, Allah chose and preferred Adam and Nuh and the descendants of Ibrahim and the descendants of Imran above all His creatures. The requisite merits were known to Allah only but whosoever was chosen had to undergo an evident test or trial. After Ibrahim the lineage was divided into two branches. The lineage Is-haq terminated in Isa who was raised to heavens. The descendants of Isma-il carried the light to Abdul Muttalib. Again it was bifurcated through his two sons - Abdullah, the father of Muhammad al Mustafa, and Abu Talib, the father of Ali al Murtada. Muhammad and Ali were identical with each other in spirit, character and wisdom. One reflected the other. This identity and unity was integrated in one entity through the marriage of Ali and Fatimah, the holy daughter the Holy Prophet.)

4. Once again this verse is proving Allah CHOOSES the succesor. Also, that leaders are incombent just as prophets are incombent. Why is it that Allah chooses Imamate/leadership seperate from prophethood? because they are two different concepts. As we see from previous verses of prophets being tried and raised in thier status to imams.

5. This just shows prophets are given Successors, by Allah's CHOICE! Which shows, prophets have a succesor. Also, succesors dont have to be a prophet, as aaron is not a prophet. The hadith found in both shia and sunni books, Prophet Muhammad tells Imam Ali, " you are to me as Aaron is to Musa". I can give you sources if you like.

6. Of course your going to dogde this verse. you cannot disprove the word of Allah. As I read in your post 53 all you say is everyone has leaders in their community and they will be raised with them. Well, let me tell you buddy. Have you read the quran. ONLY Allah CHOOSES LEADERS, DIVINE LEADERS. These "imams" that Allah will raise us with, are not any leaders, they are divinly appointed. You keep saying Imam means prophet but now you change it to COMMUNITY LEADER? Nice try. We know that there are no prophets now during our era, so as a people, who is our imam? Every people is plural and is meant by era, not by groups of people in every city, but as a whole. It mentions "imam" singular.

7. It shows you have nothing to say because Allah makes certain people leaders, in this case, some people from the children of israel, who were not prophets, after which Moses recieved the book from Allah, meaning after the prophet did his job and guided his people from disbelivers to believers, Allah appointed a leader, just as he did with Muhammad who recieved the quran and completed the religion. This is a huge proof in which everyone needs an imam after prophethood.

8. I know I made a mistake in the sense I used revelation when I meant communication. Either way it shows Allah communicates with anyone and whom he chooses.

9. The concept of imamate is vampent in the quran. Also as I have shown, is stated in the most clearest of ways.

10. When you responded back to my analogy I answered you and you ignored me...you just repeated yourself here again.

You missed many of my questions in which you can find by going to my previous posts.

The main one, who is your imam that is chosen by Allah, at this moment?

Edited by pureethics

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First off, i dont think shakir is a shia, even so, I dont care. I dont take the quran as a literal only book. Second, Arabic to English isnt accurate ever, so for you to be using one type of translation for proof doesnt chnage or affect anything at all for your position. Ill keep telling you till this goes through your ignorant brain. We SHIAS believe, some prophets can be IMAMS. All Prophets ARE NOT Imams. Imams are leaders/protectors of people who are already Muslim. All Prophets and Messengers came to DISBELIEVERS. IMAMS are FOR believers.

In both cases, Prophet and Imam in these verses is speaking about individuals that can receive revelations and commandments. 12 Imams cannot receive revelations and commandments so stop trying to use verses regarding revelations and commandments to link it to your 12 Imams. Why can you not comprehend that?!

I'm seriously amazed you keep using revelation/commandment verses to justify 12 Imams. I repeated this over and over and even posted an explanation from Ayatollah Lankarani that 12 Imams can't receive either. :wacko:

1. One thing verse 2:30 is showing is that Allah ALWAYS APPOINTS A GUIDE FOR HIS CREATION. In fact this is a proof that it is incumbent on Allah to send a leader after the seal of Prophets because we are always in need of an example. Prophets were there to show us a living example of pure morality and ethics and way of life. Also to bring us revelations. The problem is though, religion is always subject to change and interference by fallible beings. How can you keep this message alive with truth? Simple, Divinely chosen Imam, who helps mankind as they grow from era to era, and to keep the Religion of Allah intact and pure. If you say Quran is always perfect. I tell you, one, everything is not in the quran. Two, people can always change the meaning to their own benefits, extremists for example. Also, we need someone who knows the sunnah of the prophet perfectly and knows the true tafsir of Allah. Allah does not put a burden that which they cannot handle, so Im sure he is not willing to just "leave" us after prophets. Adam, is an Imam as well, as it says here.

2. This verse is just showing once again Allah always chooses his ViceSergeant, and that He always has one.

3. It seems to me you dont understand the english language, nor arabic. If you read the previous verses, its pertaining to PROPHET IBRAHIM. HE WAS A PROPHET BEFORE HIS TRIALS. When Allah tested him, and he passed, Allah MADE him into an IMAM. Meaning, IMAMATE is higher than PROPHETHOOD. Also showing IMAMATE IS RELEVANT AND SIGNIFICANT. It means that a prophet is not necessarily an Imam and imamat is an office of a decidedly higher order which is granted only when one proves himself suitable and worthy after undergoing a test. "Verily, I make you an Imam for mankind" clearly indicates that like risalat, imamat is also bestowed upon the chosen representatives of Allah by Allah Himself. It is a position no one, however virtuous or godly he may be, not even Ibrahim, the prophet of Allah, could claim for himself, nor can it be conferred on any one by any individual, group or community. It is an exclusively divine action. The word kalimat has been used here in the same sense invested in verse 37 of this surah-Allah turned to Adam mercifully when he received the kalimat from his Lord. Imam of mankind, yet he had no right to hand over the office of imamat to his descendants, therefore, he requested Allah to let his descendants inherit it. He could only pray for it, which he did. And it is Allah who alone has the right to appoint an Imam. "My covenant does not include the zalim (unjust)" indicates that imamat is given only to those who have not sinned. Only an infallible can be an Imam.

Zalim (unjust) in the view of the Quran, is he who worships, or has worshipped a ghayrallah. Shirk (idolatry) in the words of the Quran is the greatest zulm or injustice. Therefore he who, at any time in his life, has been a mushrik (idolater) can never be an Imam. Besides the Holy Prophet there was no one, among his companions, who had not been an idol-worshipper, save his cousin, Ali ibna abi Talib, who alone could be rightfully chosen by providence "to receive the covenant of imamat". The Holy Prophet, therefore, under the command of Allah transferred the imamat to Ali, and after Ali to the eleven Imams in the progeny of Muhammad and Ali. In this way the covenant of Allah with Ibrahim was fulfilled, and in the progeny of Isma-il the twelve princes, the twelve holy Imams, were born.

Therefore there must be an infallible Imam, a divinely commissioned guide, with power and authority delegated to him by Allah, in every age, to keep the people on the right path and direct them unto the destination determined by the merciful Lord of the worlds.

The office of imamat is not hereditary. It is Allah's covenant, which is only bestowed upon an infallible devotee of Allah who comes out successful from the tests and trials specifically prescribed for him by Allah. A sinner or a forgiven sinner cannot be an Imam. The names of the twelve Imams, the descendants of Ibrahim in the progeny of Isma-il, divinely commissioned in fulfilment of the covenant made with Ibrahim, are given below:

(According to verse 33 of Ali Imran, Allah chose and preferred Adam and Nuh and the descendants of Ibrahim and the descendants of Imran above all His creatures. The requisite merits were known to Allah only but whosoever was chosen had to undergo an evident test or trial. After Ibrahim the lineage was divided into two branches. The lineage Is-haq terminated in Isa who was raised to heavens. The descendants of Isma-il carried the light to Abdul Muttalib. Again it was bifurcated through his two sons - Abdullah, the father of Muhammad al Mustafa, and Abu Talib, the father of Ali al Murtada. Muhammad and Ali were identical with each other in spirit, character and wisdom. One reflected the other. This identity and unity was integrated in one entity through the marriage of Ali and Fatimah, the holy daughter the Holy Prophet.)

4. Once again this verse is proving Allah CHOOSES the succesor. Also, that leaders are incombent just as prophets are incombent. Why is it that Allah chooses Imamate/leadership seperate from prophethood? because they are two different concepts. As we see from previous verses of prophets being tried and raised in thier status to imams.

5. This just shows prophets are given Successors, by Allah's CHOICE! Which shows, prophets have a succesor. Also, succesors dont have to be a prophet, as aaron is not a prophet. The hadith found in both shia and sunni books, Prophet Muhammad tells Imam Ali, " you are to me as Aaron is to Musa". I can give you sources if you like.

6. Of course your going to dogde this verse. you cannot disprove the word of Allah. As I read in your post 53 all you say is everyone has leaders in their community and they will be raised with them. Well, let me tell you buddy. Have you read the quran. ONLY Allah CHOOSES LEADERS, DIVINE LEADERS. These "imams" that Allah will raise us with, are not any leaders, they are divinly appointed. You keep saying Imam means prophet but now you change it to COMMUNITY LEADER? Nice try. We know that there are no prophets now during our era, so as a people, who is our imam? Every people is plural and is meant by era, not by groups of people in every city, but as a whole. It mentions "imam" singular.

7. It shows you have nothing to say because Allah makes certain people leaders, in this case, some people from the children of israel, who were not prophets, after which Moses recieved the book from Allah, meaning after the prophet did his job and guided his people from disbelivers to believers, Allah appointed a leader, just as he did with Muhammad who recieved the quran and completed the religion. This is a huge proof in which everyone needs an imam after prophethood.

8. I know I made a mistake in the sense I used revelation when I meant communication. Either way it shows Allah communicates with anyone and whom he chooses.

9. The concept of imamate is vampent in the quran. Also as I have shown, is stated in the most clearest of ways.

10. When you responded back to my analogy I answered you and you ignored me...you just repeated yourself here again.

You missed many of my questions in which you can find by going to my previous posts.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 = All pertaining to Prophets. It seems you have an addiction of using Prophet related verses and claim, "hey, that means 12 Imams also". And ofcourse Allah chooses his Prophets and Prophet's successor who are Prophets, that's why they are considered divine Prophets. :wacko:

Regardless of what Allah calls His Prophets, it has nothing to do with 12 Imams that can neither receive revelations nor commandments, as those verses clearly state. I will keep repeating this until you understand this simple logic.

It's like arguing with an Ismaili using the same verses to justify Agha Khan :wacko:

The main one, who is your imam that is chosen by Allah, at this moment?

There is no chosen divine agent present to be obeyed, hence you have no divine Imam either present.

Hence authority amongst you means a fallible leader. yet you keep contradicting yourself with reality.

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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Shaykh as-Sadooq (ra) states:

A shia scholar tafsir will have the same effect if I post a Sunni scholar tafsir to you. ^_^

And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve; Quran (28:5)

And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications. Quran (32:24)

12 Imams cannot receive commandments nor revelations.

Hence, I'll quote you

You just proved that you know nothing about Imamah :lol:

I'm discussing with individuals who don't even know the basic fundamentals of their own Articles of Faith. No surprise.

The irony is that I feel more of a Shia than you guys. ^_^

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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إِنَّمَا أَنْتَ مُنْذِرٌ ۖ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ

You are only a warner, and for every nation is a guide (Imam) (13:7)

Shia Tafsir:

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن محمد بن أبي عمير، عن ابن اذينة، عن بريد العجلي، عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام في قول الله عز وجل: " إنما أنت منذر ولكل قوم هاد " فقال: رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله المنذر ولكل زمان منا هاد يهديهم إلى ما جاء به نبي الله صلى الله عليه وآله، ثم الهداة من بعده علي ثم الاوصياء واحد بعد واحد.

`Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from Muhammad b. Abi `Umayr from ibn Udhayna from Burayd al-`Ijli from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام regarding the saying of Allah عز وجل: “You are only a warner, and for every nation is a guide” (13:7). So he said: The Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله is the warner, and at all times there is a guide from us that will guide them (i.e. the nations) to what was brought by the Prophet of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله. From the guides after him is `Ali, then the deputies (awsiya’) one after the other. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 497)

Sunni Tafsir:

أَخْبَرَنَا أَبُو عَمْرٍو عُثْمَانُ بْنُ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ السَّمَّاكِ، ثَنَا عَبْدُ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنُ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ مَنْصُورٍ الْحَارِثِيُّ، ثَنَا حُسَيْنُ بْنُ حَسَنٍ الْأَشْقَرُ، ثَنَا مَنْصُورُ بْنُ أَبِي الْأَسْوَدِ، عَنِ الْأَعْمَشِ، عَنِ الْمِنْهَالِ بْنِ عَمْرٍو، عَنْ عَبَّادِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ الْأَسَدِيِّ، عَنْ عَلِيٍّ‏:‏ ‏(‏إِنَّمَا أَنْتَ مُنْذِرٌ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ‏)‏ قَالَ عَلِيٌّ‏:‏ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ- صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ وَسَلَّمَ- الْمُنْذِرُ، وَأَنَا الْهَادِي‏.‏

هَذَا حَدِيثٌ صَحِيحُ الْإِسْنَادِ وَلَمْ يُخْرِجَاهُ‏

Al-Mustadrak alaa al-Sahihain, Hakim al-Nishaburi, Book of the Knowing Companions, Chapter: Ali Leader of the righteous,

Narrated from Ali who said: (You - only warner, and for every nation there is the one who guides to the straight path), The Messenger of Allah is a warner, and I am the guide (Imam)

-------------------------

Hakim: Hadith have authentic isnaad but Bukhari and Muslim did not include this hadith in their collections.

حديث مرفوع) حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى الصُّوفِيُّ ، قَالَ : ثنا الْحَسَنُ بْنُ الْحُسَيْنِ الأَنْصَارِيُّ ، قَالَ : ثنا مُعَاذُ بْنُ مُسْلِمٍ بَيَّاعُ الْهَرَوِيِّ ، عَنْ عَطَاءِ بْنِ السَّائِبِ ، عَنْ سَعِيدِ بْنِ جُبَيْرٍ ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ ، قَالَ : " لَمَّا نَزَلَتْ إِنَّمَا أَنْتَ مُنْذِرٌ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ سورة الرعد آية 7 ، وَضَعَ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَدَهُ عَلَى صَدْرِهِ ، فَقَالَ : " أَنَا الْمُنْذِرُ ، وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ " . وَأَوْمَأَ بِيَدِهِ إِلَى مَنْكِبِ عَلِيٍّ فَقَالَ : " أَنْتَ الْهَادِي يَا عَلِيُّ ، بِكَ يَهْتَدِي الْمُهْتَدُونَ بَعْدِي " . وَقَالَ آخَرُونَ : مَعْنَاهُ : لِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ دَاعٍ

Ibn Jarir Al-Tabari, Dzhamiul Bayan, Surah Thunder, verse 7.

Narrated Ibn Abbas: When the verse was sent down ( You are - just ...) Messenger of Allah putted his hand on his chest and said: "I am the warner." Then he pointed towards Ali and said: "You are the guide (Hadi)(Imam) Oh Ali! With your help will find the path those who will find the right path.

Edited by Rasul

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In both cases, Prophet and Imam in these verses is speaking about individuals that can receive revelations and commandments. 12 Imams cannot receive revelations and commandments so stop trying to use verses regarding revelations and commandments to link it to your 12 Imams. Why can you not comprehend that?!

I'm seriously amazed you keep using revelation/commandment verses to justify 12 Imams. I repeated this over and over and even posted an explanation from Ayatollah Lankarani that 12 Imams can't receive either. :wacko:

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 = All pertaining to Prophets. It seems you have an addiction of using Prophet related verses and claim, "hey, that means 12 Imams also". And ofcourse Allah chooses his Prophets and Prophet's successor who are Prophets, that's why they are considered divine Prophets. :wacko:

Regardless of what Allah calls His Prophets, it has nothing to do with 12 Imams that can neither receive revelations nor commandments, as those verses clearly state. I will keep repeating this until you understand this simple logic.

It's like arguing with an Ismaili using the same verses to justify Agha Khan :wacko:

There is no chosen divine agent present to be obeyed, hence you have no divine Imam either present.

Hence authority amongst you means a fallible leader. yet you keep contradicting yourself with reality.

  1. Those Prophets before becoming imams RECIEVED REVELATIONS
  2. Those verses in which the prophets became imams show the concept of IMAMATE EXISTS!
  3. Those prophets that became imams, DIDNT RECEIVE REVELATION ANYMORE
  4. THE POINT OF THOSE VERSES ARE THAT IMAMATE EXISTS AND ITS Allah's COMMAND!!!

ITS SOOOOO SIMPLE!! YET YOUR TELLING ME I DONT UNDERSTAND?!!

DID YOU JUST SAY THERE IS NO IMAM PRESENT?! ARE YOU SAYING Allah IS LYING?

We do have an imam present and its the grandson of the prophet Imam Mahdi A.S, whom by Allah's will is in occultation just as Jesus A.S is and Kithr A.S

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12 Imams cannot receive commandments nor revelations.

Hence, I'll quote you

I'm discussing with individuals who don't even know the basic fundamentals of their own Articles of Faith. No surprise.

The irony is that I feel more of a Shia than you guys. ^_^

You are just too ignorant, There are Prophets (pbuh) that were both (Imams and Prophets) like Ibrahim (as) is it too hard to understand? Will you continue to play dumb?

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Rasul, I don't need tafsirs or hadiths. The whole point of this thread is regarding the concept of Ahlul Bayt/Imamat not defined in the Quran.

  1. Those Prophets before becoming imams RECIEVED REVELATIONS
  2. Those verses in which the prophets became imams show the concept of IMAMATE EXISTS!
  3. Those prophets that became imams, DIDNT RECEIVE REVELATION ANYMORE
  4. THE POINT OF THOSE VERSES ARE THAT IMAMATE EXISTS AND ITS Allah's COMMAND!!!

ITS SOOOOO SIMPLE!! YET YOUR TELLING ME I DONT UNDERSTAND?!!

1. Can 12 Imams receive revelations? Yes/No? If no, stop using verses related to revelations commandments to justify 12 imams. If Yes, you have contradicted the fundamental Shia belief of Imamat (prove given by explanation from Ayatollah Lankarani)

2. What is the definition of Imam?

DID YOU JUST SAY THERE IS NO IMAM PRESENT?! ARE YOU SAYING Allah IS LYING?

No, you are lying by equating authority amongst you to 12 Imams. There is no divine agent present, that's why the verse clearly states the authority amongst you, and there is any issues refer to Allah and the Prophet.

Why do you think Taqleed being is wajib is justified? :wacko:

Think man, common sense.

We do have an imam present and its the grandson of the prophet Imam Mahdi A.S, whom by Allah's will is in occultation just as Jesus A.S is and Kithr A.S

Stop using Prophets to justify 12 Imams.

You just won't stop ^_^

It's like:

Definition of Imamat = Prophet did this, Prophet example. Prophet revelation verse, Allah did this to Prophet X, Prophet by name did this EQUALS 12 non-Prophet Imams exist :wacko:

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from abu Yahya al-Wasiti from Hisham ibn Salim and Durust ibn abu Mansur the following:

“Abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, has said that the prophets and the messengers are of four categories. There were prophets who were given Divine news in their souls just for their own selves and for no one else. There were also prophets who were given Divine news in their dreams and would hear the voice but would not see anyone when awake and they were not sent to other people with such news. They had to follow an Imam just as it happened with Lot who followed Abraham.

There were prophets who would experience in their dreams, hear the voice and see the angel and were sent to a group of people small or large like Yunus (Jonah), as Allah has said, ‘We sent him to a hundred thousand people or a few more.’(37:148). The Imam said that ‘Few more’ were thirty thousand people led by an Imam.

“There were those who saw in their dreams, heard the voice and saw the angel when awake and were also Imam like ’Ulul ‘Azm ones. Abraham was a prophet but not an Imam until Allah said, ‘I want to appoint you as the Imam for people.’ He said,

‘Also, please (let there be more Imam), from my descendents,’to which He said, ‘My covenant does not go to the unjust ones.’(2:124) Those who have worshipped idols or statues will not become Imam.’”

al-Kafi, Volume 1, Hadith 430,

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Rasul, I don't need tafsirs or hadiths. The whole point of this thread regarding the concept of Imamat and Ahlul bayt not defined in the Quran.

1. Can 12 Imams receive revelations? Yes/No? If no, stop using verses related to revelations commandments to justify 12 imams. If Yes, you have contradicted the fundamental Shia belief of Imamat (prove given by explanation from Ayatollah Lankarani)

2. What is the definition of Imam?

No, you are lying by equating authority amongst you to 12 Imams. There is no divine agent present, that's why the verse clearly states the authority amongst you, and there is any issues refer to Allah and the Prophet.

Why do you think Taqleed being is wajib is justified? :wacko:

Think man, common sense.

Stop using Prophets to justify 12 Imams.

You just won't stop ^_^

1. Wait wait wait, you dont even make any sense. its like im talking to an illiterate being. "stop using verses related to revelations commandments to justify 12 imams" - What does that even mean. You know how the quran was even revealed? Allah was talking with Muhammad A.S. All these verses are set examples given to Muhammad to give to us. In those verses, it implies the concept of Imamate, even to prophets.

2. http://www.al-islam.org/imamate/1.htm http://www.al-islam.org/wilayat/

3. What do you mean there is no divine vizer present? Allah says so in 17:71 and it doesnt state amongst you. Also prove to me he doesnt exist. At least I have the quran supporting me..How about this prove from the quran imamate doesnt exist.

[17:71] (Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam

Edited by pureethics

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Rasul - this thread is about Quran, not hadiths. You might want to read the thread before splashing stufff.

pureethics - Simple question, in your own words, what's the objective and responsibility of an Imam?

Successor of a Prophet, Divinely appointed, Leader, representative of Allah, most knowledgeable, knows all of sunnah and perfect tafsir of the quran, infallible, err free, protector of the religion, a guide for mankind....you want me to keep going?

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Successor of a Prophet, Divinely appointed, Leader, representative of Allah, most knowledgeable, knows all of sunnah and perfect tafsir of the quran, infallible, err free, protector of the religion, a guide for mankind....you want me to keep going?

I'm not speaking of qualities or prerequisites. Let's keep it simple and try again, what is the objective of an Imam? What is his job?

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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There is no chosen divine agent present to be obeyed, hence you have no divine Imam either present.

Hence authority amongst you means a fallible leader. yet you keep contradicting yourself with reality.

You yourself have proven the concept of imamat by stating the above verses with tafsir. Please provide your proof that there is no divine agent present to be obeyed by the Quran. And stop giving false meanings to the verses of the Quran by saying "hence authority amongst you means a falliable leader" Did the Quran say falliable. I ask you, did the Quran say authority here means a falliable leader".Did it say that. Yes or no. The answer is No. Can't an infalliable leader be among us. Of course he can be. So basically what you have done is you have given your own tafsir to the Quran and you cannot understand the Quran without the guidance of those whom following is compulsory.

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I'm not speaking of qualities or prerequisites. Let's keep it simple and try again, what is the objective of an Imam? What is his job?

Your just going to try and twist my words...you know the true answer

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Rasul - this thread is about Quran, not hadiths. You might want to read the thread before splashing stufff.

You cant understand the Quran without the Prophet. If you are in salat and the prophet calls you, you must break your salat right away. Do you get the point. THe prophet is the living Quran and he is the one you and I need to understand the Quran. We dont need Yusuf Ali or you or any other person to tell the correct explanation of a certain verse.

Edited by race

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Your just going to try and twist my words...you know the true answer

Not at all. I want to make sure we both agree on a definition. What's an Imam's job?

You yourself have proven the concept of imamat by stating the above verses with tafsir. I ask you, did the Quran say authority here means a falliable leader".Did it say that. Yes or no. The answer is No. Can't an infalliable leader be among us. Of course he can be. So basically what you have done is you have given your own tafsir to the Quran and you cannot understand the Quran without the guidance of those whom following is compulsory.

I didn't provide tafsirs nor is it relevant to to this thread.

Please provide your proof that there is no divine agent present to be obeyed by the Quran. And stop giving false meanings to the verses of the Quran by saying "hence authority amongst you means a falliable leader" Did the Quran say falliable.

Yes, hence it said in the same verse to refer back to Allah and the Prophet. A divine Imam wouldn't need to do such thing because he would have the knowledge.

No one is actually reading this thread.

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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