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Syed Hussain

Why Isn't The Ahlybait In The Holy Quran ?

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Quran is for all times, electing or following imam ali after the prophet is only for the people of that time. Normally quran does not include an instruction for only one generation.

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It is stated in the Quran that:

وَلَقَدْ يَسَّرْنَا الْقُرْآنَ لِلذِّكْرِ فَهَلْ مِن مُّدَّكِرٍ

Sura Al-Qamar, verse 17.

And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?

1- It has been confirmed by Allah that obeying and following the holy prophet saw leads to TRUE path of Tauheed. It is numerically in the form of 47 alphabets of Sura Alakhlas and Sura Muhammad has been placed in confirmation at serial number 47 in the Quran.

2- It has also been verified that obeying and following 13 Ahl Albayt A.S from the progeny of Muhammad saw leads to Sunnah and True concept of Tauheed. This fact has been numerically kept in the form of verse of purification (Ayat Tatheer, Quran 33:33) which has been structured by exactly 47 alphabets.

3-Further confirmation leaves no doubt that the path of 13 Ahl Albayat As. is the absolute objective of Quran leading to TRUE Tauheed as explained by the Quran. This confirmation comes in the form that the names of 13 Ahl Allbayat A.S are structured by Allah swt in such a way that it sums up to 47 alphabets.

4- This confirmation has been further testified in the verse of Wilaya placed at Sr no. 55 in Sura Al-Maiyda. The sum of the alphabets in these 15 Wali including Allah the messenger and 13 Ahl Albayat is exactly equal to 55. Just after the verse no 56 clerly identifies that the believers (Momineen) should turn to Allah, the Messenger and 13 Ahl Albayat A.S. This evidence comes in the form that this verse has 14 alphabets with dots/points and the sum of alphabets in this verse is exactly 47.

5- It is also concluded from the verse of Sura AlNissa at sr no 59, that obeying Allah, the Messenger and the 13 Ahl Albayat is an order for all believers. This is reconfirmed that 14 Infallibles are meant by this verse as it contain 14 dots/points. Also. The sum of the number representing the 15 personalities including Allah, the Messenger and 13 Ahl Albayat A.S give a total sum of 59 which is the serial number of this verse.

6- This leaves no room for believers except to believe and follow the path of 14 infallibles which is ONLY path leading to the TRUE concept of Tauheed.

The details can be seen at the given link:

http://www.scribd.co...cept-of-Tauheed

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1. Look at 20 or so verses in the Quran that talk about Imamate.

2. Look at the definition of bay`at in the Shari`ah and you'll come to an answer.

There is no mention nor definition of 12 divine Imams after the Prophet. Only ambiguous out of context verses are being presented, which I've clearly refuted.

It's all within the Qur`aan, but the Qur`aan requires the Sunnah alongside it to get the perfect meaning/Tafseer. Otherwise something like Olil Amr can become anyone who holds power, and Ahl al-Bayt who were purified could be anyone from the Prophet [saawaws]'s family.

Does Quran define Tawheed (Oneness of God) without the need of any hadith/tafsir? Yes

Does Quran define Adl (Just) without the need of any hadith/tafsir? Yes

Does Quran define Prophethood without the need of any hadith/tafsir? Yes

Does Quran define Day of Jugdement (Qayamat) without the need of any hadith/tafsir? Yes

Does Quran define Imamat without the need of any hadith/tafsir? No, all of a sudden you need hadiths/tafseer to figure this out = Red Flag

If you cannot even define an Article of Faith within the Quran and need fallible tafsirs/hadiths to understand it then you already proved that it's not clearly defined in the Quran like the rest of the Articles of Faith.

These points you have mentioned with regard to your previous post. Here are my issues with it. The hadith is talking about names. Names do not fall under usool ad-deen. Meaning: if we have no names, we have no usool ad-deen. As I said before names are not important. Even if names were part of, you still cant question since qualities are mentioned and again there is wisdom behind it.

2) Concept of imamat have been defined in the Quran and books have been writen where it is explained and narrations/verses have been quoted to support it.

1) This isn't just about names, that's just one point of many (many Prophet's named mentioned). The concept of Imamat is not defined in the Quran as the other Articles of Faith. As others posted in this thread, you need Hadiths/Tafseers to define this 'concept'.

2) There is no verse in the Quran where it states there will be divine successors after the Prophet. Rather, the Quran keeps repeating Muhammed is the last Prophet without any indication of a successor (even though a successor was alive at the time).

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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There is no mention nor definition of 12 divine Imams after the Prophet. Only ambiguous out of context verses are being presented, which I've clearly refuted.

Does Quran define Tawheed (Oneness of God) without the need of any hadith/tafsir? Yes

Does Quran define Adl (Just) without the need of any hadith/tafsir? Yes

Does Quran define Prophethood without the need of any hadith/tafsir? Yes

Does Quran define Day of Jugdement (Qayamat) without the need of any hadith/tafsir? Yes

Does Quran define Imamat without the need of any hadith/tafsir? No, all of a sudden you need hadiths/tafseer to figure this out = Red Flag

If you cannot even define an Article of Faith within the Quran and need fallible tafsirs/hadiths to understand it then you already proved that it's not clearly defined in the Quran like the rest of the Articles of Faith.

1) This isn't just about names, that's just one point of many (many Prophet's named mentioned). The concept of Imamat is not defined in the Quran as the other Articles of Faith. As others posted in this thread, you need Hadiths/Tafseers to define this 'concept'.

2) There is no verse in the Quran where it states there will be divine successors after the Prophet. Rather, the Quran keeps repeating Muhammed is the last Prophet without any indication of a successor (even though a successor was alive at the time).

It was Allah azwj's duty to inform about the prophet saws and it was prophet saww's duty to inform about his wasi and he saww succeeded.

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There is no mention nor definition of 12 divine Imams after the Prophet. Only ambiguous out of context verses are being presented, which I've clearly refuted.

Does Quran define Tawheed (Oneness of God) without the need of any hadith/tafsir? Yes

Does Quran define Adl (Just) without the need of any hadith/tafsir? Yes

Does Quran define Prophethood without the need of any hadith/tafsir? Yes

Does Quran define Day of Jugdement (Qayamat) without the need of any hadith/tafsir? Yes

Does Quran define Imamat without the need of any hadith/tafsir? No, all of a sudden you need hadiths/tafseer to figure this out = Red Flag

If you cannot even define an Article of Faith within the Quran and need fallible tafsirs/hadiths to understand it then you already proved that it's not clearly defined in the Quran like the rest of the Articles of Faith.

1) This isn't just about names, that's just one point of many (many Prophet's named mentioned). The concept of Imamat is not defined in the Quran as the other Articles of Faith. As others posted in this thread, you need Hadiths/Tafseers to define this 'concept'.

2) There is no verse in the Quran where it states there will be divine successors after the Prophet. Rather, the Quran keeps repeating Muhammed is the last Prophet without any indication of a successor (even though a successor was alive at the time).

your argument is funny, its like saying your grandpa told your dad to tell you to do something, your dad tells you to do it, you say "but my grandpa needs to say it, i cant do it until my grandpa says it" if you dont understand, in this analogy, your dad is the prophet and your grandpa is god, god commanded the prophet to have a successor, and he chooses his successor but people say but god didnt say it.

A prophet must have a successor otherwise who will protect the religion? if you say the quran protects itself, ohh really? then why do people change the verses to their own meanings? One must be there to hold the true meaning. God must guide mankind at all times since times change!, no way will a just god all of a sudden let man go and say your free the quran is here bye bye..besides look whats happening to the sunnis, Christianity infiltrated them. As they say, so what everyone sins so let the prophet sin too, but not umar no satan cant harm him but the prophet of god yeah satan makes him do all kinds of things...its seriously mind boggling

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1- It is stated in the Quran that:

كِتٰبٌ اَنْزَلْنٰهُ اِلَيْكَ مُبٰرَكٌ لِّيَدَّبَّرُوْٓا اٰيٰتِهٖ وَلِيَتَذَكَّرَ اُولُوا الْاَلْبَابِ

Sura Sad, verse 29.

“This is the Blessed Book that We have revealed to you, (O Muhammad), that people with understanding may reflect over its verses and those with understanding derive a lesson”.

The detail on Ahl al bayat in quran can be found on the given linK

http://www.scribd.co...cept-of-Tauheed

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If you cannot even define an Article of Faith within the Quran and need fallible tafsirs/hadiths to understand it then you already proved that it's not clearly defined in the Quran like the rest of the Articles of Faith.

Havent you read the verses on imamat in the Quran. For us it has been clearly defined and we have already quoted verses from the Quran. Even if I agree with you and say that we need tafsir/hadith to understand it, that does not mean the concept is not mentioned in the quran and it cannot be an article of faith. If what you say is true then give me proof from the Quran saying that if something is not clearly defined in the Quran, it cannot be an article of faith. The mere argument that tauhid, adl, prophethood is clearly mentioned and thus it is an article of faith is absurb and illogical. Even if you succeed in this, we still believe because of evidence and reasoning that the verses of Imamat in the Quran are clear enough but you need a through understanding of other verses in order to comprehend and understand it. What you are missing is the school of Ahlulbayt.

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It was Allah azwj's duty to inform about the prophet saws and it was prophet saww's duty to inform about his wasi and he saww succeeded.

You are partially correct. The Prophet's duty was to inform the followers via Quran, and it did not include declaring a successor.

your argument is funny, its like saying your grandpa told your dad to tell you to do something, your dad tells you to do it, you say "but my grandpa needs to say it, i cant do it until my grandpa says it" if you dont understand, in this analogy, your dad is the prophet and your grandpa is god, god commanded the prophet to have a successor, and he chooses his successor but people say but god didnt say it.

Analogy is flawed. Grandpa told your dad to say something. Dad did say something via only divine source (Quran). It did not include a divine successor.

Havent you read the verses on imamat in the Quran. For us it has been clearly defined and we have already quoted verses from the Quran. Even if I agree with you and say that we need tafsir/hadith to understand it, that does not mean the concept is not mentioned in the quran and it cannot be an article of faith. If what you say is true then give me proof from the Quran saying that if something is not clearly defined in the Quran, it cannot be an article of faith. The mere argument that tauhid, adl, prophethood is clearly mentioned and thus it is an article of faith is absurb and illogical. Even if you succeed in this, we still believe because of evidence and reasoning that the verses of Imamat in the Quran are clear enough but you need a through understanding of other verses in order to comprehend and understand it. What you are missing is the school of Ahlulbayt.

Prophet is the head of Ahlul Bayt, he is the principle of Ahlul Bayt school, he is the one who revealed the Quran, and the head of Ahlul Bayt did mention 12 divine agents or that there will be a divine successor in the Quran.

It seems people are searching through the Quran to find any verse that has the word "authority", "Imam" or anything else of that nature (even if it's out of context) and link it back to hadiths. The fundamental problem is that without that link there is no concept of Imamat. You are dependent on fallible hadiths, not Quran, to define this concept. Quran alone does not define this concept nor gives any indication of a divine successor after the Prophet.

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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Analogy is flawed. Grandpa told your dad to say something. Dad did say something via only divine source (Quran). It did not include a divine successor.

My analogy is flawed? Your the one who is confining the prophet and taking all his duties. You saying he did was bring the quran and thats it. When we all know he defined new laws and such. We all know the quran DOES NOT HAVE EVERYTHING. The only way to know about all issues is through a divine being. Now your saying that hadith is fallible, your wrong. Hadith is infallible if its from an infallible source. People who kept these narrations are fallible, but it doesnt affect the infallible hadith. All it does it challenges the narrator and the authenticity of the hadith BECAUSE OF THE NARRATOR, and we can see by examining its personality. Did you know that the prophet didnt write the quran? It was written by people who heard the prophet reveal the verses. Yet you say it is infallible when you know those people writing it was fallible (except we shias, cause we know imam ali wrote it and he was infallible). God didnt bring a present to the prophet, "here you go, the quran". You need hadith, otherwise the quran is useless in the sense of tafsir, like i mentioned before, it can be taken anyway with multiple meanings because of the vast conjugation of the arabic language. Times are changing, we have a basis and its the quran but do we have perfect (divine) knowledge to deduce an answer? To sunnis its analogy, but its flawed since analogy isnt perfect. We Shias, have perfection. That is why we have our imams, who kept the message of the prophet protected and was the divine leaders of the world, bringing perfect tafsir and such. There is no way, Allah will bring 124000 prophets and then just stop, let us go on our own. Why do you think there are different schools of thought? If the quran "has" everything and that which is clear, why is theology unclear? We still need guidance, its just that there is no need for new revelation or law. Why didnt Allah just bring books without prophets? The prophet was a living hadith, with example and guidance.

Ill leave you with a few things:

And thy Lord creates what He wills and chooses; they have no right to choose; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate! (28:68).

... "Verily I am going to make a caliph in the earth ". . . ( 2: 30)

"O Dawud ! Verily; We have made thee (Our) caliph on the earth ..." (38:26)

(Allah) said: "Surely I am going to make you an Imam for men." (Ibrahim) said: "And of my offspring?" He said: "My covenant will not include the unjust. " (2 : 124)

And We made them Imams who were to guide by Our command ... (21:73)

"And make for me a vizier from my family, Harun (Aaron) my brother" (20:29-30). And Allah said:

Look at all these verses.

1. Allah chooses caliphs/people not people.

2. This is separate from prophet hood as we see, they were already prophets and God raised their status to an imam

3. imamate is in the quran and it is only chosen by Allah

4. God brings imams for nations before us, but now that the message is complete, their is no caliph or imam? God is not unjust!

"

Imamat is the Grace (Lutf) of Allah which attracts mankind towards His obedience and keeps them away from His disobedience, without compelling them in any way. When Allah orders mankind to do something yet He is aware that either they can not do it, or it is very difficult for them to do it without His assistance, then if Allah does not provide His assistance, He would be contradicting His own aim. Obviously, such negligence is evil according to reason. As such, Grace (Lutf) is one of Allah's character, and He is purified/exalted from inadequacy of lacking such attribute. In fact, the holy Quran states that: "Allah is Gracious to His servants..." (Quran 42:19). And, there are many other places that Almighty uses the word Grace (Lutf) in His book. See for instance, 6:103, 12:100, 22:63, 31:16, 33:34, 42:19, 67:14, etc.

The messengers of God were entrusted the responsibility of bringing new commandments from Allah to the people. They were warners as Quran testifies. However, some of the messengers were Also Imams/Guides. The successors of the last Messenger of God were not messengers/prophets, and as such, they did not bring any new massage nor did they cancel any of the regulations set by the Prophet (PBUH&HF). They just served as guides and guardians of religion. Their mission is to explain, elaborate Shari'a (Divine law) for the people. They clear up confusing things and events which may happen in each era. Also they are the only individuals who have the full knowledge of Quran and the Sunna of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF) after him, and as such, they are the only qualified people who can properly interpret the verses of the holy Quran and explain its meaning, as mentioned in Quran itself (See 3:7 and 21:7).

Imamat is a great bounty of Allah, because when people have a righteous leader who guides them, they can get closer to righteousness and depart from corruption and deviations in the matter of religion. A divinely appointed Imam is also the most liable person to rule as the head of the community who can maintain justice and remove oppression. Of course, people have been given free will and can refrain from accepting the Imam, but they will be held responsible for that, as was for the case of the prophets. Nonetheless, the Imam would remain as a Proof of God on the earth and as spiritual leader for the believers among people who benefit his guidance."

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter1b/5.html

here are some more links to check out: http://www.al-islam.org/imamate/ http://www.al-islam.org/wilayat/

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How come no one mentioned the verse of the mubahila mentioned in the Quran?

But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and ourselves and yourselves, then let us be earnest in prayer, and invoke the curse of Allah on the liars. (3:61)

This verse refers to the event of Mubahila where the Muhammad (pbuh) and the Christian of Najran engaged in a mubahila to see who was correct in the eyes of God. It was agree that each would bring their dears and invke the wrath of God on the other. Muhammad (pbuh) chose, Ali (as), Fatima (as) , Hassan (as) and Hussain (as) to come with him. These are the Ahl-e-kisa. Upon seeing them, the christian leader backed out convinced that the wrath of God would fall on them if the five invoked it. He said to his people.

"Verily I see a divine light on the face of our combatants; I am beholding such faces among them as can make the mountains move from their spots if they pray to God. So beware! Never try to contest with them, otherwise you will perish and the entire nation of Christians will succumb to extinction!"

This verse and the event associated with it, along with the hadith-e-kisa highlights the spiritual authority of the ahl-e-bayt.

Edited by JimJam

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You are partially correct. The Prophet's duty was to inform the followers via Quran, and it did not include declaring a successor.

Analogy is flawed. Grandpa told your dad to say something. Dad did say something via only divine source (Quran). It did not include a divine successor.

Prophet is the head of Ahlul Bayt, he is the principle of Ahlul Bayt school, he is the one who revealed the Quran, and the head of Ahlul Bayt did mention 12 divine agents or that there will be a divine successor in the Quran.

It seems people are searching through the Quran to find any verse that has the word "authority", "Imam" or anything else of that nature (even if it's out of context) and link it back to hadiths. The fundamental problem is that without that link there is no concept of Imamat. You are dependent on fallible hadiths, not Quran, to define this concept. Quran alone does not define this concept nor gives any indication of a divine successor after the Prophet.

Immams are chosen by Allah, as already defined in many verses in quran, without anu doubt. However, I ask you to present the clear verse from the quran that people or fallible can choose the prophet or they can choose the divinely appointed successor of the prophet, to conclude the disscussion that you are prolonging.

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My analogy is flawed? Your the one who is confining the prophet and taking all his duties. You saying he did was bring the quran and thats it. When we all know he defined new laws and such. We all know the quran DOES NOT HAVE EVERYTHING. The only way to know about all issues is through a divine being.

We are not speaking of laws and such, we are speaking of fundamentals/Articles of Faith/Roots of Religion/Usool ad-Deen. You need to digest the specific of this subject and stop looping everything into one category to make a flawed point.

Quran is the fundamental divine book whose objective is to mention the fundamentals, yet you are coming up with excuses that, "We all know the quran DOES NOT HAVE EVERYTHING". We are not talking about everything, we are only speaking of the roots of religion.

And thy Lord creates what He wills and chooses; they have no right to choose; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate! (28:68).

... "Verily I am going to make a caliph in the earth ". . . ( 2: 30)

*sigh*

You are doing exactly what I predicted in my previous post, "It seems people are searching through the Quran to find any verse that has the word "authority", "Imam" or anything else of that nature (even if it's out of context) and link it back to hadiths"

You are erroneously equating 'caliph'/'viceroy'/'etc' to 12 Imams. The verse is obviously speaking about a Prophet, hence the following verse names the caliph, "And He taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels;".

Prophets have been identified as caliphs/Imams/viceroys throughout the Quran.

"O Dawud ! Verily; We have made thee (Our) caliph on the earth ..." (38:26)

This supports my previous statement; Dawud = Prophet , hence caliph = Prophet.

(Allah) said: "Surely I am going to make you an Imam for men." (Ibrahim) said: "And of my offspring?" He said: "My covenant will not include the unjust. " (2 : 124)

Ibrahim has been mentioned as an Imam in the Quran, hence the word "Imam" isn't exclusive to 12 divine Imams.

Ibrahim = Prophet

Ibrahim's offspring = Prophet

And We made them Imams who were to guide by Our command ... (21:73)

Again, all you are doing is finding where the word "Imam" shows up in the Quran and erroneously equating the 12 Imams via out of context. Read the previous verse and verse after, as it clearly speaks of Prophets.

[21:72] And We gave him Ishaq and Yaqoub, a son's son, and We made (them) all good.

[ 21:73] And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve;

[21:74] And (as for) Lut, We gave him wisdom and knowledge, and We delivered him from the town which wrought abominations; surely they were an evil people, transgressors;

Ishaq, Yaqub, and Lut = Prophets. Not 12 Imams.

And make for me a vizier from my family, Harun (Aaron) my brother" (20:29-30). And Allah said:

Harun = Prophet.

None of these verses define/mention divine 12 successors after the Prophet Muhammed.

Immams are chosen by Allah, as already defined in many verses in quran, without anu doubt. However, I ask you to present the clear verse from the quran that people or fallible can choose the prophet or they can choose the divinely appointed successor of the prophet, to conclude the disscussion that you are prolonging.

My argument is not fallibles choosing the Prophet/divine Imams, that's the discussion at all.

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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We are not speaking of laws and such, we are speaking of fundamentals/Articles of Faith/Roots of Religion/Usool ad-Deen. You need to digest the specific of this subject and stop looping everything into one category to make a flawed point.

What are you talking about bro? Show me in the quran where it mentions usool ad deen or roots of religion! Show me exactly which is which. You cant! Besides what do you mean looping. Im telling you the quran isnt a literal book nor does it need to mention all the names of the imams and where the come from. The fact is the whole position of ahlulbayt is described in terms of "imam" and tweleve is used all around the book, and it was the prophets job to conclude his messenger ship and determine the chosen imam. Its simple really. As I have said before, do you believe in 124000 prophets even though not all of them are mentioned? You cannot pick and choose buddy.

Quran is the fundamental divine book whose objective is to mention the fundamentals, yet you are coming up with excuses that, "We all know the quran DOES NOT HAVE EVERYTHING". We are not talking about everything, we are only speaking of the roots of religion.

I agree with you, and once again I hold my stance. Whether you want to believe it or not, the quran is not a 100% literal book. It does mention imamate.

*sigh*

You are doing exactly what I predicted in my previous post, "It seems people are searching through the Quran to find any verse that has the word "authority", "Imam" or anything else of that nature (even if it's out of context) and link it back to hadiths"

Now if those words didnt exist then it would be an issue of argument but it clearly does.

You are erroneously equating 'caliph'/'viceroy'/'etc' to 12 Imams. The verse is obviously speaking about a Prophet, hence the following verse names the caliph, "And He taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels;".

Are you retarded? Why would Allah mention a prophet whose sole job is to guide and yet still right after call him an imam? Because they are two different things!

Prophets have been identified as caliphs/Imams/viceroys throughout the Quran.

I dont know if you even know what your talking about. In Shia Islam we believe many prophets became imams for their people, but the imams after a prophet hold a different value, because they are the protectors after the religion has been completed.

This supports my previous statement; Dawud = Prophet , hence caliph = Prophet.

Your logic is flawed. Show me a verse were Allah mentions All Prophets are Caliphs. Not All messengers are prophets, and not all prophets are imams.

Ibrahim has been mentioned as an Imam in the Quran, hence the word "Imam" isn't exclusive to 12 divine Imams.

Ibrahim = Prophet

Ibrahim's offspring = Prophet

Again, all you are doing is finding where the word "Imam" shows up in the Quran and erroneously equating the 12 Imams via out of context. Read the previous verse and verse after, as it clearly speaks of Prophets.

[21:72] And We gave him Ishaq and Yaqoub, a son's son, and We made (them) all good.

[ 21:73] And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve;

[21:74] And (as for) Lut, We gave him wisdom and knowledge, and We delivered him from the town which wrought abominations; surely they were an evil people, transgressors;

Ishaq, Yaqub, and Lut = Prophets. Not 12 Imams.

Nice try. Do you know arabic? Nice of you to get your translations from wahabis so they can put imamate everywhere it mentions guidance so people say see everyone is imam. Look at the word being used and compare it to the imam word being used in ibrahims case and youll get your answer!

Harun = Prophet.

None of these verses define/mention divine 12 successors after the Prophet Muhammed.

My argument is not fallibles choosing the Prophet/divine Imams, that's the discussion at all.

PLEASE LEARN TO READ ARABIC OR GET BETTER TRANSLATIONS!

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We are not speaking of laws and such, we are speaking of fundamentals/Articles of Faith/Roots of Religion/Usool ad-Deen. You need to digest the specific of this subject and stop looping everything into one category to make a flawed point.

Quran is the fundamental divine book whose objective is to mention the fundamentals, yet you are coming up with excuses that, "We all know the quran DOES NOT HAVE EVERYTHING". We are not talking about everything, we are only speaking of the roots of religion.

*sigh*

You are doing exactly what I predicted in my previous post, "It seems people are searching through the Quran to find any verse that has the word "authority", "Imam" or anything else of that nature (even if it's out of context) and link it back to hadiths"

You are erroneously equating 'caliph'/'viceroy'/'etc' to 12 Imams. The verse is obviously speaking about a Prophet, hence the following verse names the caliph, "And He taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels;".

Prophets have been identified as caliphs/Imams/viceroys throughout the Quran.

This supports my previous statement; Dawud = Prophet , hence caliph = Prophet.

Ibrahim has been mentioned as an Imam in the Quran, hence the word "Imam" isn't exclusive to 12 divine Imams.

Ibrahim = Prophet

Ibrahim's offspring = Prophet

Again, all you are doing is finding where the word "Imam" shows up in the Quran and erroneously equating the 12 Imams via out of context. Read the previous verse and verse after, as it clearly speaks of Prophets.

[21:72] And We gave him Ishaq and Yaqoub, a son's son, and We made (them) all good.

[ 21:73] And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve;

[21:74] And (as for) Lut, We gave him wisdom and knowledge, and We delivered him from the town which wrought abominations; surely they were an evil people, transgressors;

Ishaq, Yaqub, and Lut = Prophets. Not 12 Imams.

Harun = Prophet.

None of these verses define/mention divine 12 successors after the Prophet Muhammed.

My argument is not fallibles choosing the Prophet/divine Imams, that's the discussion at all.

Salam,

Brother that's all they do. They see the word 'Imam' and try equating it back to their 12 Divine Imams. Sorry to bust anyone's bubble, Imamate cannot be usool-e-deen, it's not explicit.

Edited by igotquestions

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Salam,

Brother that's all they do. They see the word 'Imam' and try equating it back to their 12 Divine Imams. Sorry to bust anyone's bubble, Imamate cannot be usool-e-deen, it's not explicit.

are you telling us, the prophet, or Allah?

By the way,

Here is some food for though:

The Messenger of Allah said to Ali: "Glad tiding O Ali! Verily you and your companions and your Shia (followers) will be in Paradise."

Sunni references:

  1. Fadha'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p655
  2. Hilyatul Awliyaa, by Abu Nu'aym, v4, p329
  3. Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v12, p289
  4. al-Awsat, by al-Tabarani
  5. Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v10, pp 21-22
  6. al-Darqunti, who said this tradition has been transmitted via numerous authorities.
  7. al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar Haythami , Ch. 11, section 1, p247

The Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said: "The Shia of Ali are the real victorious in the day of resurrection/rising"

  • al-Manaqib Ahmad, as mentioned in:
  • Yanabi al-Mawaddah, by al-Qundoozi al-Hanafi, p62
  • Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Hafidh Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, who quotes the tradition as follows: "We were with the Holy Prophet when Ali came towards us. The Holy Prophet said: He and his Shia will aquire salvation on the day of judgment."

Has the word sunni ever been used in the quran?

"And he (Moses) went into the city at a time when people (of the city) were not watching, so he found therein two men fighting, one being of his Shia and the other being his enemy, and the one who was of his Shia cried out to him for help against the one who was of his enemy" (Quran 28:15)

"And most surely Abraham was among the Shia of him (i.e., Noah)" (Quran 37:83)

Who made abu baker caliph? In every verse Allah says I choose. Baker does not abide by Allah's rules.

We are not speaking of laws and such, we are speaking of fundamentals/Articles of Faith/Roots of Religion/Usool ad-Deen. You need to digest the specific of this subject and stop looping everything into one category to make a flawed point.

Quran is the fundamental divine book whose objective is to mention the fundamentals, yet you are coming up with excuses that, "We all know the quran DOES NOT HAVE EVERYTHING". We are not talking about everything, we are only speaking of the roots of religion.

*sigh*

You are doing exactly what I predicted in my previous post, "It seems people are searching through the Quran to find any verse that has the word "authority", "Imam" or anything else of that nature (even if it's out of context) and link it back to hadiths"

You are erroneously equating 'caliph'/'viceroy'/'etc' to 12 Imams. The verse is obviously speaking about a Prophet, hence the following verse names the caliph, "And He taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels;".

Prophets have been identified as caliphs/Imams/viceroys throughout the Quran.

This supports my previous statement; Dawud = Prophet , hence caliph = Prophet.

Ibrahim has been mentioned as an Imam in the Quran, hence the word "Imam" isn't exclusive to 12 divine Imams.

Ibrahim = Prophet

Ibrahim's offspring = Prophet

Again, all you are doing is finding where the word "Imam" shows up in the Quran and erroneously equating the 12 Imams via out of context. Read the previous verse and verse after, as it clearly speaks of Prophets.

[21:72] And We gave him Ishaq and Yaqoub, a son's son, and We made (them) all good.

[ 21:73] And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve;

[21:74] And (as for) Lut, We gave him wisdom and knowledge, and We delivered him from the town which wrought abominations; surely they were an evil people, transgressors;

Ishaq, Yaqub, and Lut = Prophets. Not 12 Imams.

Harun = Prophet.

None of these verses define/mention divine 12 successors after the Prophet Muhammed.

My argument is not fallibles choosing the Prophet/divine Imams, that's the discussion at all.

Also this verse:

One day We shall call every group of people by their respective Imams. (Quran 17:71)

It mentions their. Who is your imam, in which every verse that mentions imam, Allah says he chooses the imam. I challenge you to find me one verse in which he doesnt choose, whether it be a leader, vizer, imam anythig! So which imam did Allah choose for you at this day and age?

Edited by pureethics

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Imamate in the Quran

[Yusufali 3:33] Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people,-

[Yusufali 3:34] Offspring, one of the other: And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

Men given divine responsibly are descendants of prophets

[Yusufali 21:72] And We bestowed on him Isaac and, as an additional gift, (a grandson), Jacob, and We made righteous men of every one (of them).

[Yusufali 21:73] And We made them leaders, guiding (men) by Our Command, and We sent them inspiration to do good deeds, to establish regular prayers, and to practise regular charity; and they constantly served Us (and Us only).

[shakir 21:73] And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve

These verses show the responsibility of Imams and tie imamate with sinlessness

Musa (as) prophet asked Allah for an heir and helper from his family

[Yusufali 20:29] "And give me a Minister from my family,

[Yusufali 20:30] "Aaron, my brother;

[Yusufali 20:31] "Add to my strength through him,

[Yusufali 20:32] "And make him share my task:

[Yusufali 20:33] "That we may celebrate Thy praise without stint,

[Yusufali 20:34] "And remember Thee without stint:

[Yusufali 20:35] "For Thou art He that (ever) regardeth us."

[Yusufali 20:36] (Allah) said: "Granted is thy prayer, O Moses!"

Why does Musa(as) ask Allah to MAKE Aaron a deputy when his brother was always near him anyway?

The Quran also explains Harun's position further

[shakir 7:142] And We appointed with Musa a time of thirty nights and completed them with ten (more), so the appointed time of his Lord was complete forty nights, and Musa said to his brother Haroun: Take my place among my people, and act well and do not follow the way of the mischief-makers.

[Yusufali 25:35] (Before this,) We sent Moses The Book, and appointed his brother Aaron with him as minister;

Interestingly if you look up the Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 57,Hadith Number 56, it says that Muhammad (pbuh) said to Ali (as);

"Will you not be pleased that you will be to me like Aaron was to Moses?"

Another verse which ties imamat to infallibility and ties the duty of imamat to the pious men among descendants of Ibrahim(as), this also Ibrahim (as) being appointed as an Imam (as) much time after being a prophet.

[Yusufali 2:124] And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."

Here is mentioned the Imams among the Bani Israel, the Succesors of Musa(as)

[Pickthal 32:23] We verily gave Moses the Scripture; so be not ye in doubt of his receiving it; and We appointed it a guidance for the Children of Israel.

[Pickthal 32:24] And when they became steadfast and believed firmly in Our revelations, We appointed from among them leaders who guided by Our command

[shakir 32:24] And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.

[Yusufali 2:246] Hast thou not Turned thy vision to the Chiefs of the Children of Israel after (the time of) Moses? they said to a prophet (That was) among them: "Appoint for us a king, that we May fight in the cause of Allah." He said: "Is it not possible, if ye were commanded to fight, that that ye will not fight?" They said: "How could we refuse to fight in the cause of Allah, seeing that we were turned out of our homes and our families?" but when they were commanded to fight, they turned back, except a small band among them. But Allah Has full knowledge of those who do wrong.

[Yusufali 2:247] Their Prophet said to them: "Allah hath appointed Talut as king over you." They said: "How can he exercise authority over us when we are better fitted than he to exercise authority, and he is not even gifted, with wealth in abundance?" He said: "Allah hath Chosen him above you, and hath gifted him abundantly with knowledge and bodily prowess: Allah Granteth His authority to whom He pleaseth. Allah careth for all, and He knoweth all things."

See how in a community of believers the ruler must be one who Allah appoints, through one who represents Allah's authority on earth, such as a prophet.

I have given Shakir's translation at times because he literally translates the Arabic word imam or it's plural Iemmah into imam, other translators try to translate imam to chief or leader. But shakirs overall style is confusing.

We can deduce from the verses that an imam is

1. A man with divine authority, though not himself divine

2.He is nominated through Allah's orders by a previous holder of divine authority

3. He is not a Prophet in the sense he brings the faith of Allah to a disbelieving nation, instead he guides the nation of believers to live correctly & serve Allah as the successor of the prophets.

Edited by JimJam

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Brother that's all they do. They see the word 'Imam' and try equating it back to their 12 Divine Imams. Sorry to bust anyone's bubble, Imamate cannot be usool-e-deen, it's not explicit.

That's the problem. If you look at the tafsir for any of the verses that has Imam/Authority/etc., it's automatically equated to 12 Imams. You are not bursting anyone's bubble, the overwhelming majority of Muslims back then who were alive while the Quran was being revealed didn't believe in this concept, nor the majority now. Just think about that, Muslims that had direct contact with the Prophet, who were alive while the Quran was being revealed, who used to listen to the Prophet on pulpits did not believe in this concept after his death.

And then you have some people stating hundreds years later that it's so obvious that comcept of Imamat is in the Quran. :wacko:

Also this verse:

One day We shall call every group of people by their respective Imams. (Quran 17:71)

It mentions their. Who is your imam, in which every verse that mentions imam, Allah says he chooses the imam. I challenge you to find me one verse in which he doesnt choose, whether it be a leader, vizer, imam anythig! So which imam did Allah choose for you at this day and age?

  1. Imam means Prophet. Prior to Prophet's death, there were only Prophets, hence applicable.
  2. Imam means leader of society. The verse clearly states, "every group of people, with their respective Imam", meaning there will be an Imam for every group, clearly stating multiple respectful Imams. This goes back to the "authority" verse.
  3. This verse doesn't define nor mention that here will be 12 divine successors after the Prophet. The concept of 12 divine successors after the Prophet doesn't exist in the Quran, there is no proof, you are just splashing any verse that has the common arabic words for 'Imam'/'Viceroy'/'Authority'/etc.

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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That's the problem. If you look at the tafsir for any of the verses that has Imam/Authority/etc., it's automatically equated to 12 Imams. You are not bursting anyone's bubble, the overwhelming majority of Muslims back then who were alive while the Quran was being revealed didn't believe in this concept, nor the majority now. Just think about that, Muslims that had direct contact with the Prophet, who were alive while the Quran was being revealed, who used to listen to the Prophet on pulpits did not believe in this concept after his death.

And then you have some people stating hundreds years later that it's so obvious that comcept of Imamat is in the Quran. :wacko:

  1. Imam means Prophet. Prior to Prophet's death, there were only Prophets, hence applicable.
  2. Imam means leader of society. The verse clearly states, "every group of people, with their respective Imam", meaning there will be an Imam for every group, clearly stating multiple respectful Imams. This goes back to the "authority" verse.
  3. This verse doesn't define nor mention that here will be 12 divine successors after the Prophet. The concept of 12 divine successors after the Prophet doesn't exist in the Quran, there is no proof, you are just splashing any verse that has the common arabic words for 'Imam'/'Viceroy'/'Authority'/etc.

ohh really, once again you keep repeating yourself without answering anyone's questions. As I have said before, imam is different from prophet as imams are used for people who have been guided and have different job. A messenger is different from a prophets position, where as a prophet can be a messenger as well. Not all prophets are imams, if you believe otherwise please provide proof from the quran. This verse is explictly saying with "their" imams, meaning the most recent imam. The one living in each one of our eras. Now there are no prophets now, so who is your imam? as you say prophets are imams. Also as we can see from all verses which state authority/imam its whom Allah chooses, so which imam has Allah chosen now in this era?

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That's the problem. If you look at the tafsir for any of the verses that has Imam/Authority/etc., it's automatically equated to 12 Imams. You are not bursting anyone's bubble, the overwhelming majority of Muslims back then who were alive while the Quran was being revealed didn't believe in this concept, nor the majority now. Just think about that, Muslims that had direct contact with the Prophet, who were alive while the Quran was being revealed, who used to listen to the Prophet on pulpits did not believe in this concept after his death.

And then you have some people stating hundreds years later that it's so obvious that comcept of Imamat is in the Quran. :wacko:

Well, for you, I'm bursting the bubble now. The majority of Muslim's - which you are using as proof - during the Prophet's life and after his death were mostly a bunch of lowlifes who didn't even care what the Prophet said and didn't act like the Prophet (as) ordered them too, although they all claim the contrary. Period. I'll only show you one example:

Quran 62:11: "And if they come across any trade, or some entertainment, they rush to it and leave you standing! Say:" What God possesses is far better than entertainment or trade. God is the best Provider."

This happened when the Prophet was saying the sermon for the friday prayers. Some seller came by and started making musical sounds. The people except a mere few left the Prophet standing on the pulpit in the middle of the sermon and rushed to buy stuff and listen to the music. Those people are the same lousy Sahabas who some people love to bragg about (go on bragging about them and build your religion based on their foolish actions). These are the same majority who go around saying Imamate is not a concept in Islam or part of Usool al-din. The same majority who left the Prophets body lieing on the ground and didn't bury him and rushed to select an Imam from amongst themselves (the saqifa incident) instead of the Imam that Allah had chosen for them. Be in love with this Muslim majority and copy their foolish beliefs and actions. Hell, you give them the chance to choose between the Prophet's sermon and some fool selling goods with music and they select the latter. You give the same majority the option of choosing between the Imam appointed by Allah or the Imam appointed by themselves and again they choose the latter.

  1. Imam means Prophet. Prior to Prophet's death, there were only Prophets, hence applicable.
  2. Imam means leader of society. The verse clearly states, "every group of people, with their respective Imam", meaning there will be an Imam for every group, clearly stating multiple respectful Imams. This goes back to the "authority" verse.
  3. This verse doesn't define nor mention that here will be 12 divine successors after the Prophet. The concept of 12 divine successors after the Prophet doesn't exist in the Quran, there is no proof, you are just splashing any verse that has the common arabic words for 'Imam'/'Viceroy'/'Authority'/etc.

1-You cannot prove what you said.

2-Are you a sunni or a shia, because either way what you are saying is wrong. I am stronly inclined to the fact that you are a Sunni.

3-Neither does the concept that there are 5 daily prayers and N more nawafil prayers and that each is so and so rakas. "there is no proof".

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This happened when the Prophet was saying the sermon for the friday prayers. Some seller came by and started making musical sounds. The people except a mere few left the Prophet standing on the pulpit in the middle of the sermon and rushed to buy stuff and listen to the music.

I mean, cut them some slack man, it was a SALE

Imam means Prophet. Prior to Prophet's death, there were only Prophets, hence applicable.

[Pickthal 32:23] We verily gave Moses the Scripture; so be not ye in doubt of his receiving it; and We appointed it a guidance for the Children of Israel.

[Pickthal 32:24] And when they became steadfast and believed firmly in Our revelations, We appointed from among them leaders who guided by Our command

[shakir 32:24] And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.

Are all those leaders prophet mentioned above prophets? You sure?

[Yusufali 5:12] Allah did aforetime take a covenant from the Children of Israel, and we appointed twelve captains among them. And Allah said: "I am with you: if ye (but) establish regular prayers, practise regular charity, believe in my messengers, honour and assist them, and loan to Allah a beautiful loan, verily I will wipe out from you your evils, and admit you to gardens with rivers flowing beneath; but if any of you, after this, resisteth faith, he hath truly wandered from the path or rectitude."

\A few other things come to mind, the 12 disciples of Jesus (as), 12 streams from the staff of Moses (as), twelve Khalifas (successors / viceregents) after Muhammad (pbuh), The number 12 has an undeniable significance.

Truth is the jist of the matter is that the Quran gives us the principle of divinely nominated succession as the system of authority for believers not Shura, even the 12 chiefs of Israel were divinely selected (probably by their prophet).

[Yusufali 3:33] Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people,-

[Yusufali 3:34] Offspring, one of the other: And Allah heareth and knoweth all things

[Yusufali 2:124] And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."

Muhammad (pbuh) was the last prophet, but he wasn't the last of his line. Keeping in mind waht the Quran tells us it is rational that his line, which Quran tells is raised over all other men is his successor for the leadership of the Ummah, to guide people in the religion Muhammad (pbuh) revealed. And especially considering that he declared Ali (as) his deputy and successor multiple times ( Dawat dhul-Ashirah, the Hadith of Manzilah, the Event of Mubahila, the Hadith of the Cloak, the Haith of the two weighty things and the event of Ghadir Khumm.) the naysayers to the Imamate of the ahl-e-bayt (as)have no ground to stand on expect what the Israelis call 'facts-on-the-ground' i.e the result of underhanded political maneuvering.

Edited by JimJam

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Immams are chosen by Allah, as already defined in many verses in quran, without anu doubt. However, I ask you to present the clear verse from the quran that people or fallible can choose the prophet or they can choose the divinely appointed successor of the prophet, to conclude the disscussion that you are prolonging.

You are still not able to present a verse from quran.

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As I have said before, imam is different from prophet as imams are used for people who have been guided and have different job. A messenger is different from a prophets position, where as a prophet can be a messenger as well. Not all prophets are imams, if you believe otherwise please provide proof from the quran. This verse is explictly saying with "their" imams, meaning the most recent imam.

No one stated Prophet and Imam are the same, but a Prophet can be an Imam also, hence the Quran has identified Prophets as Imams.

The one living in each one of our eras. Now there are no prophets now, so who is your imam? as you say prophets are imams. Also as we can see from all verses which state authority/imam its whom Allah chooses, so which imam has Allah chosen now in this era?

So who is your living Imam in the area? If you say al-Mehdi then you have contradicted your own logic because he is not present to be obeyed as the Quran states, he hasn't been available for centuries.

Well, for you, I'm bursting the bubble now. The majority of Muslim's - which you are using as proof - during the Prophet's life and after his death were mostly a bunch of lowlifes who didn't even care what the Prophet said and didn't act like the Prophet ordered them too, although they all claim the contrary. Period

Absurd excuse. Most didn't listen to the Prophet yet listened and became Muslims. So basically all the lowlifes obeyed the Prophet and became Muslims but they didn't care nor listen about the successor.

99% of the population didn't obey the Prophet regarding the successorship so they are all lowlifes all of a sudden, yet these same lowlifes all of a sudden become credible narrators for hadiths which you obey. Think about it.

1-You cannot prove what you said.

2-Are you a sunni or a shia, because either way what you are saying is wrong. I am stronly inclined to the fact that you are a Sunni.

3-Neither does the concept that there are 5 daily prayers and N more nawafil prayers and that each is so and so rakas. "there is no proof".

1) Proof is something that hasn't been provided for this concept, the onus is on you. I've posted all the arguments, counter any

2) I'm just a curious lad.

3) http://www.shiachat....n/#entry2553647

Are all those leaders prophet mentioned above prophets? You sure?

This verse clearly is speaking about Prophet's bringing commandants (revelations), and used Prophet Musa as an example. And God clearly states we have made THEM (Prophets) Imams. To simplify what I said, Allah clearly stated a Prophet and his revelation (book) in the verse and you are erroneously applying it to a non-Prophet that cannot receive revelations.

Divine Imam's cannot bring new commandments/revelations, this is a known fact in Shia School of thought hence your verse has nothing to do with Divine Imams.

It's deceiving to use a verse out of context when it is clearly using a Prophet and revelations as an example, and to apply it erroneously to divine Imams (non-Prophets) who cannot receive revelations.

http://www.shiachat....25#entry2283174

Muhammad (pbuh) was the last prophet, but he wasn't the last of his line. Keeping in mind waht the Quran tells us it is rational that his line, which Quran tells is raised over all other men is his successor for the leadership of the Ummah, to guide people in the religion Muhammad (pbuh) revealed. And especially considering that he declared Ali (as) his deputy and successor multiple times ( Dawat dhul-Ashirah, the Hadith of Manzilah, the Event of Mubahila, the Hadith of the Cloak, the Haith of the two weighty things and the event of Ghadir Khumm.) the naysayers to the Imamate of the ahl-e-bayt (as)have no ground to stand on expect what the Israelis call 'facts-on-the-ground' i.e the result of underhanded political maneuvering.

You don't even have an divine Imam present to guide you, hence you are contradicting yourself.

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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No one stated Prophet and Imam are the same, but a Prophet can be an Imam also, hence the Quran has identified Prophets as Imams.

So who is your living Imam in the area? If you say al-Mehdi then you have contradicted your own logic because he is not present to be obeyed as the Quran states, he hasn't been available for centuries.

Absurd excuse. Most didn't listen to the Prophet yet listened and became Muslims. So basically all the lowlifes obeyed the Prophet and became Muslims but they didn't care nor listen about the successor.

99% of the population didn't obey the Prophet regarding the successorship so they are all lowlifes all of a sudden, yet these same lowlifes all of a sudden become credible narrators for hadiths which you obey. Think about it.

1) Proof is something that hasn't been provided for this concept, the onus is on you. I've posted all the arguments, counter any

2) I'm just a curious lad.

3) http://www.shiachat....n/#entry2553647

Obviously. Revelations/Commandments can only be given to a Prophet, not Imam (the Shia concept of Imamat). Basic Shia 101.

You don't even have an divine Imam present to guide you, hence you are contradicting yourself.

First off I was the one who asked you questions yet you answer with other questions... But let me tell you. If you are Muslim you believe in kithir and Jesus who are prophets who are living but not among us. Imam Mahdi is living and among us but cannot be seen do to it being Allah's command. If you don't believe in prophets you cannot tell me he doesn't exist because one, not being able to see something doesn't disprove it's existence, two, does one must be physically there to be obeyed? We obey Allah yet he isn't physically there. Imam Mahdi A.S is chosen by Allah and from the prophet. If you believe in the Quran

and you want your argument to stand, you have yet told me your imam who is chosen by Allah present now.....

Also about these verses:

[Pickthal 32:23] We verily gave Moses the Scripture; so be not ye in doubt of his receiving it; and We appointed it a guidance for the Children of Israel.

[Pickthal 32:24] And when they became steadfast and believed firmly in Our revelations, We appointed from among them leaders who guided by Our command

[shakir 32:24] And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.

32:23 Allah gave him scripture meaning during this verse HE WAS A PROPHET

32:24 "WHEN HIS PEOPLE BELIEVED" meaning Prophet did his job to turn the disbelievers into believers, then an Imam was chosen by Allah among them. In this case it was Aaron who became his vice sergeant as Imam Ali became Prophet Muhammads vice sergeant.

"And when Abraham was tested by his Lord with certain commands and he

fulfilled them. Then He said: Lo! I appoint you an Imam for mankind."

(Quran 2:124).

Abraham was already a prophet in this verse, as you can tell with previous verses, therefore why would Allah need to repeat himself if you say imam and prophet means the same thing. That is absurd! Therefore, in this case his status has been risen from prophet to an imam.

Edited by pureethics

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If you are Muslim you believe in kithir and Jesus who are prophets who are living but not among us. Imam Mahdi is living and among us but cannot be seen do to it being Allah's command. If you don't believe in prophets you cannot tell me he doesn't exist because one, not being able to see something doesn't disprove it's existence, two, does one must be physically there to be obeyed? We obey Allah yet he isn't physically there. Imam Mahdi A.S is chosen by Allah and from the prophet. If you believe in the Quran

Why do you need examples to justify your beliefs?

Khizr and Jesus are clearly stated in the Quran and are Prophets

12 divine Imams are not defined in the Quran and rules regarding Prophets and Imams differ

So tell me where in the Quran it states that a non-Prophet can live like Khizr and Jesus?

32:23 Allah gave him scripture meaning during this verse HE WAS A PROPHET

32:24 "WHEN HIS PEOPLE BELIEVED" meaning Prophet did his job to turn the disbelievers into believers, then an Imam was chosen by Allah among them. In this case it was Aaron who became his vice sergeant as Imam Ali became Prophet Muhammads vice sergeant.

"And when Abraham was tested by his Lord with certain commands and he

fulfilled them. Then He said: Lo! I appoint you an Imam for mankind."

(Quran 2:124).

Abraham was already a prophet in this verse, as you can tell with previous verses, therefore why would Allah need to repeat himself if you say imam and prophet means the same thing. That is absurd! Therefore, in this case his status has been risen from prophet to an imam.

12 Imams cannot receive commands. This is Shia belief not mine. Hence Imam and Prophet in this verse is the same thing because both received commands and has nothing to do with the concept of Imamat.

And you need to stop using examples, I don't do examples.

We have the Mahdi (as)

No you don't. He is not present nor has been available for hundreds of years. As the Quranic verse clearly states to obey the one in authority, al-Mehdi isn't available to be obeyed or rule, hence Shia's have made taqleed to fallibles wajib.

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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12 Imams cannot receive commands. This is Shia belief not mine. Hence Imam and Prophet in this verse is the same thing because both received commands and has nothing to do with the concept of Imamat.

[Yusufali 19:16] Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.

[Yusufali 19:17] She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.

[Yusufali 19:18] She said: "I seek refuge from thee to (Allah) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah."

[Yusufali 19:19] He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.

[Yusufali 19:20] She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"

[Yusufali 19:21] He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."

[Yusufali 19:22] So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.

Then why did Maryam (as) receive communications from Allah? I know, you'll say shes a prophet too, Where did you get you definition of the word prophet? The oxford dictionary?

[Yusufali 2:102] They followed what the evil ones gave out (falsely) against the power of Solomon: the blasphemers Were, not Solomon, but the evil ones, teaching men Magic, and such things as came down at babylon to the angels Harut and Marut. But neither of these taught anyone (Such things) without saying: "We are only for trial; so do not blaspheme." They learned from them the means to sow discord between man and wife. But they could not thus harm anyone except by Allah's permission. And they learned what harmed them, not what profited them. And they knew that the buyers of (magic) would have no share in the happiness of the Hereafter. And vile was the price for which they did sell their souls, if they but knew!

[Yusufali 2:103] If they had kept their Faith and guarded themselves from evil, far better had been the reward from their Lord, if they but knew!

And all those that gained self destructive occult knowledge from Harut and Marut, angels of Allah, they certainly weren't prophets. Yet here you have the Quran telling us that an entire generation of people gaining access of secret knowledge through two angels as a trial for them.

No you don't. He is not present nor has been available for hundreds of years.

And what of that vast majority of humanity. people outside Arabia and then civilized world during the prophet's time that had never heard of Muhammad (pbuh), and to whom Muhammad (pbuh) as good as never existed, or was never 'available' practically, yet the Quran tells us the prophet is the a blessing to the worlds and a guide and a warner.,

As the Quranic verse clearly states to obey the one in authority, al-Mehdi isn't available to be obeyed or rule, hence Shia's have made taqleed to fallibles wajib.

Because that whats the Imams directed. Imam Jafar (as) said to shia outside the country that they should follow those who narrate his hadith.

Edited by JimJam

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[Yusufali 19:16] Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.

[Yusufali 19:17] She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.

[Yusufali 19:18] She said: "I seek refuge from thee to (Allah) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah."

[Yusufali 19:19] He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.

[Yusufali 19:20] She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"

[Yusufali 19:21] He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."

[Yusufali 19:22] So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.

Then why did Maryam (as) receive communications from Allah? I know, you'll say shes a prophet too, Where did you get you definition of the word prophet? The oxford dictionary?

[Yusufali 2:102] They followed what the evil ones gave out (falsely) against the power of Solomon: the blasphemers Were, not Solomon, but the evil ones, teaching men Magic, and such things as came down at babylon to the angels Harut and Marut. But neither of these taught anyone (Such things) without saying: "We are only for trial; so do not blaspheme." They learned from them the means to sow discord between man and wife. But they could not thus harm anyone except by Allah's permission. And they learned what harmed them, not what profited them. And they knew that the buyers of (magic) would have no share in the happiness of the Hereafter. And vile was the price for which they did sell their souls, if they but knew!

[Yusufali 2:103] If they had kept their Faith and guarded themselves from evil, far better had been the reward from their Lord, if they but knew!

And all those that gained self destructive occult knowledge from Harut and Marut, angels of Allah, they certainly weren't prophets. Yet here you have the Quran telling us that an entire generation of people gaining access of secret knowledge through two angels as a trial for them.

And what of that vast majority of humanity. people outside Arabia and then civilized world during the prophet's time that had never heard of Muhammad (pbuh), and to whom Muhammad (pbuh) as good as never existed, or was never 'available' practically, yet the Quran tells us the prophet is the a blessing to the worlds and a guide and a warner.,

Because that whats the Imams directed. Imam Jafar (as) said to shia outside the country that they should follow those who narrate his hadith.

Also people of the cave and Aaron, they weren't prophets. This Jinn guy clearly hasn't read the Quran where Allah says:

2:117- The Initiator of the heavens and the earth: to have anything done, He simply says to it, "Be," and it is.

Allah does what he wills.

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@Ugly Jinn: I have had enough of your nonsense and you repeating the same garbage. From my point of view you are a pure Wahhabi posing as someone who has questions. If the following answers don't shut your mouth then I hope a moderator here will shut you up by banning you. I will answer your last comments using the Quran and I will show that you know nothing about the Quran and are using it to spread lies and propaganda.

Why do you need examples to justify your beliefs?

Examples are not used to justify a belief. They are used so that people like you who have a problem comprehending simple matters can grasp the concept being discussed. The same technique is used a lot in the Quran for the same reason:

الإسراء : 89 وَ لَقَدْ صَرَّفْنا لِلنَّاسِ في‏ هذَا الْقُرْآنِ مِنْ كُلِّ مَثَلٍ فَأَبى‏ أَكْثَرُ النَّاسِ إِلاَّ كُفُوراً

Quran 17:89: We have mentioned in this Quran all kinds of examples for the human being, but most human beings turn away in disbelief.

Khizr and Jesus are clearly stated in the Quran and are Prophets

12 divine Imams are not defined in the Quran and rules regarding Prophets and Imams differ

So tell me where in the Quran it states that a non-Prophet can live like Khizr and Jesus?

Does it state that they can't? Or is everything stated in the Quran?

12 Imams cannot receive commands. This is Shia belief not mine. Hence Imam and Prophet in this verse is the same thing because both received commands and has nothing to do with the concept of Imamat.

Read the verse again and stop playing with words. If you were sincere in your intentions or had any knowledge about the Quran you would have pointed out that the verse has been translated incorrectly and would have admitted that "test" is correct not "command".

And you need to stop using examples, I don't do examples.

We learned using examples from Allah in the Quran you fool.

No you don't. He is not present nor has been available for hundreds of years. As the Quranic verse clearly states to obey the one in authority, al-Mehdi isn't available to be obeyed or rule, hence Shia's have made taqleed to fallibles wajib.

The Quran also orders us not to worship/obey the Satan. Wait aminute, what satan? The satan isn't present neither has he been available for hundreds of years. As the Quranic verse clearly states not to worship/obey the satan, satan isn't available to be obeyed or worshipped, hence blah blah blah . . .

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Then why did Maryam (as) receive communications from Allah? I know, you'll say shes a prophet too, Where did you get you definition of the word prophet? The oxford dictionary?

The argument is about commandments/revelations (divine law/rule), not communication. The verses you used initially in chapter 32 are commands/revelations, Imams (12 Imams) cannot receive those.

]And what of that vast majority of humanity. people outside Arabia and then civilized world during the prophet's time that had never heard of Muhammad (pbuh), and to whom Muhammad (pbuh) as good as never existed, or was never 'available' practically, yet the Quran tells us the prophet is the a blessing to the worlds and a guide and a warner.,

Those who were never exposed to Islam/Muhammed are excluded.

[17:15] Whoever goes aright, for his own soul does he go aright; and whoever goes astray, to its detriment only does he go astray: nor can the bearer of a burden bear the burden of another, nor do We chastise until We raise a messenger.

Because that whats the Imams directed. Imam Jafar (as) said to shia outside the country that they should follow those who narrate his hadith.

Exactly my point, hence you justify following a fallible "authority amongst you", because divine Imam is not present.

The Quran also orders us not to worship/obey the Satan. Wait aminute, what satan? The satan isn't present neither has he been available for hundreds of years. As the Quranic verse clearly states not to worship/obey the satan, satan isn't available to be obeyed or worshipped, hence blah blah blah . . .

Now you are using an example to compare Satan to Imam? :wacko:

Satan is not a human, same rules don't apply. Case closed.

Hence you should stop with your examples, and go easy on the insults.

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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The argument is about commandments/revelations (divine law/rule), not communication. The verses you used initially in chapter 32 are commands/revelations, Imams (12 Imams) cannot receive those.

Those who were never exposed to Islam/Muhammed are excluded.

[17:15] Whoever goes aright, for his own soul does he go aright; and whoever goes astray, to its detriment only does he go astray: nor can the bearer of a burden bear the burden of another, nor do We chastise until We raise a messenger.

Exactly my point, hence you justify following a fallible "authority amongst you", because divine Imam is not present.

Now you are using an example to compare Satan to Imam? :wacko:

Satan is not a human, same rules don't apply. Case closed.

Hence you should stop with your examples, and go easy on the insults.

thanks for dodging my questions for the third time...communication to Maryam is revelation, hence its FROM Allah. Now your making up your own rules. In a debate your views are not proof. You must use logic to dictate your views are correct. Therefore, saying imams cant receive revelation from Allah is blatantly wrong. Imams cannot receive new law, but Allah is in contact with them through Gabraeil, hence they are divinely appointed. By the way when he was comparing Satan to an Imam, he wasnt doing literally, he was talking about the concept where were we believe Imam Mahdi is present but unseen, just as we disobey satan, where as we know he is present but unseen as well.

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thanks for dodging my questions for the third time...communication to Maryam is revelation, hence its FROM Allah. Now your making up your own rules. In a debate your views are not proof. You must use logic to dictate your views are correct. Therefore, saying imams cant receive revelation from Allah is blatantly wrong. Imams cannot receive new law, but Allah is in contact with them through Gabraeil, hence they are divinely appointed. By the way when he was comparing Satan to an Imam, he wasnt doing literally, he was talking about the concept where were we believe Imam Mahdi is present but unseen, just as we disobey satan, where as we know he is present but unseen as well.

This is from Ayatollah Lankarani. Again, I repeat, this is from a Shia Grand Ayatollah who was a marja. And he was a good one, unfortunately he died. This is practically unanimous with Shia marjas.

Q4: Can an Imam receive revelation? If yes, then what is the difference between a Prophet’s and Imam's revelation?

A4: None of the Imams (as) received revelation. On the demise of the Prophet (saws), Imam Ali (as) says in his book, Nahjul Balaghah:

"Your demise caused the discontinuation of something that the death of no-one else could cause; revelation and prophethood”. After Muhammad's (saws) demise, the Infallible Imams (as) were only in touch with Allah’s (swt) Angels, and this is not considered as revelation.

http://www.lankarani...aq/ideology.php

Think about it pureethics, if Imams can receive revelations than there would be no difference between a Prophet and an Imam. Imam's objective is to enforce the divine law, they are not authorized to add, change, or delete.

I don't know where you are getting your info from because it's not a Shia belief.

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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This is from Ayatollah Lankarani. Again, I repeat, this is from a Shia Grand Ayatollah who was a marja. And he was a good one, unfortunately he died.

Q4: Can an Imam receive revelation? If yes, then what is the difference between a Prophet’s and Imam's revelation?

A4: None of the Imams (as) received revelation. On the demise of the Prophet (saws), Imam Ali (as) says in his book, Nahjul Balaghah:

"Your demise caused the discontinuation of something that the death of no-one else could cause; revelation and prophethood”. After Muhammad's (saws) demise, the Infallible Imams (as) were only in touch with Allah’s (swt) Angels, and this is not considered as revelation.

http://www.lankarani...aq/ideology.php

Exactly what I meant when I said revelation. I was talking about in the sense of communication with Allah, just as Bibi Maryam. Prophet hood is completed. Imams arnt prophets, they dont receive any divine law, but they are communicating with Allah through angels as I mentioned up top.

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Exactly what I meant when I said revelation. I was talking about in the sense of communication with Allah, just as Bibi Maryam. Prophet hood is completed. Imams arnt prophets, they dont receive any divine law, but they are communicating with Allah through angels as I mentioned up top.

Communication and revelations are 2 different things, I've already stated that in Post 66. So that's not exactly what you said, you actually equated communicating to an angel to revelation.

So trying to use verses from the Quran regarding revelation to justify Imamat is erroneous, and clearly stated by Shia scholar. Hence you cannot use the verses regarding revelation to justify Imamat (which all of you are unknowingly doing).

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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