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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why Does Iran Persecute Baha'is?

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it is against Quranic verses to sit home and not fight for our rights. hence, we can ignore any hadith that tells us to stay home and leave the world to the shaytan awuthu billah.

Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors. 2:193

Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors. 2:190

Fighting has been enjoined upon you while it is hateful to you. But perhaps you hate a thing and it is good for you; and perhaps you love a thing and it is bad for you. And Allah Knows, while you know not. 2:216

And fight in the cause of Allah and know that Allah is Hearing and Knowing. 2:244

Or do you think that you will enter Paradise while Allah has not yet made evident those of you who fight in His cause and made evident those who are steadfast? 3:142

So let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. And he who fights in the cause of Allah and is killed or achieves victory - We will bestow upon him a great reward. 4:74

And what is [the matter] with you that you fight not in the cause of Allah and [for] the oppressed among men, women, and children who say, "Our Lord, take us out of this city of oppressive people and appoint for us from Yourself a protector and appoint for us from Yourself a helper?" 4:75

Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah , and those who disbelieve fight in the cause of Taghut. So fight against the allies of Satan. Indeed, the plot of Satan has ever been weak. 4:76

Have you not seen those who were told, "Restrain your hands [from fighting] and establish prayer and give zakah"? But then when fighting was ordained for them, at once a party of them feared men as they fear Allah or with [even] greater fear. They said, "Our Lord, why have You decreed upon us fighting? If only You had postponed [it for] us for a short time." Say, The enjoyment of this world is little, and the Hereafter is better for he who fears Allah . And injustice will not be done to you, [even] as much as a thread [inside a date seed]." 4:77

.. From Usool Al Kafi:

H 197, Ch. 22, h 1

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from al-Nawfali from al-Sakuni from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.

"The holy Prophet (s.a.), "Over every truth there is a reality and above every valid issue there is light. Whatever agrees with the holy Quran you must follow it and whatever does not agree disregard it."

H 201, Ch. 22, h 5

Muhammad ibn ’Isma‘il from al-Fadl ibn Shadhan from ibn abu ‘Umayr from Hisham ibn al- Hakam and others from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.

"The holy Prophet once addressed the people in Mina (a place in Makkah) saying, "O people, whatever comes to you in the form of my Hadith you must see if it agrees with the holy book of Allah then know that I have said it but whatever comes to you that does not agree with the book of Allah then know that I have not said it."

H 199, Ch. 22, h 3

A number of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Khalid from his father from al-Nadr ibn Suwayd from Yahya al-Halab from Ayyub ibn al-Hurr who has said the following.

"Abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) has said, ‘Everything must be referred to the holy Quran and the Sunnah, the noble traditions of the holy Prophet (s.a.) and any Hadith that does not agree with the holy Quran it is a useless statement.’"

H 202, Ch. 22, h 6

It is narrated through the same chain of narrators from ibn abu ‘Umayr from certain persons of his people who has said the following.

"Abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said, ‘Whoever disagrees with the book of Allah and the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.) he has certainly become a unbeliever.’"

________________

there are plenty more Quranic verses indicating importance of fighting, and not staying home (other than verse directed to ahl bayt members 33:33 which is in context of "wives" / see 33:30 - 33:32 )

so unless anybody can prove from Quran that one should accept tyrants and evil rule until some Qaym arrives, then the above arguments don't hold.

(wasalam)

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By Iran's logic, Christians should persecute us, because according to them, we follow a false prophet.

In any religious conflict, the minority is almost always labelled as a cult or spy of a rival nation. For 100 years the shia in Afghanistan were deemed as cult followers and spies of Iran. The sunni A

The fact that other persecute minorities doesn't justify Iran doing so.

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it is against Quranic verses to sit home and not fight for our rights. hence, we can ignore any hadith that tells us to stay home and leave the world to the shaytan awuthu billah.

Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors. 2:193

Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors. 2:190

Fighting has been enjoined upon you while it is hateful to you. But perhaps you hate a thing and it is good for you; and perhaps you love a thing and it is bad for you. And Allah Knows, while you know not. 2:216

And fight in the cause of Allah and know that Allah is Hearing and Knowing. 2:244

Or do you think that you will enter Paradise while Allah has not yet made evident those of you who fight in His cause and made evident those who are steadfast? 3:142

So let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. And he who fights in the cause of Allah and is killed or achieves victory - We will bestow upon him a great reward. 4:74

And what is [the matter] with you that you fight not in the cause of Allah and [for] the oppressed among men, women, and children who say, "Our Lord, take us out of this city of oppressive people and appoint for us from Yourself a protector and appoint for us from Yourself a helper?" 4:75

Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah , and those who disbelieve fight in the cause of Taghut. So fight against the allies of Satan. Indeed, the plot of Satan has ever been weak. 4:76

Have you not seen those who were told, "Restrain your hands [from fighting] and establish prayer and give zakah"? But then when fighting was ordained for them, at once a party of them feared men as they fear Allah or with [even] greater fear. They said, "Our Lord, why have You decreed upon us fighting? If only You had postponed [it for] us for a short time." Say, The enjoyment of this world is little, and the Hereafter is better for he who fears Allah . And injustice will not be done to you, [even] as much as a thread [inside a date seed]." 4:77

.. From Usool Al Kafi:

H 197, Ch. 22, h 1

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from al-Nawfali from al-Sakuni from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.

"The holy Prophet (s.a.), "Over every truth there is a reality and above every valid issue there is light. Whatever agrees with the holy Quran you must follow it and whatever does not agree disregard it."

H 201, Ch. 22, h 5

Muhammad ibn ’Isma‘il from al-Fadl ibn Shadhan from ibn abu ‘Umayr from Hisham ibn al- Hakam and others from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.

"The holy Prophet once addressed the people in Mina (a place in Makkah) saying, "O people, whatever comes to you in the form of my Hadith you must see if it agrees with the holy book of Allah then know that I have said it but whatever comes to you that does not agree with the book of Allah then know that I have not said it."

H 199, Ch. 22, h 3

A number of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Khalid from his father from al-Nadr ibn Suwayd from Yahya al-Halab from Ayyub ibn al-Hurr who has said the following.

"Abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) has said, ‘Everything must be referred to the holy Quran and the Sunnah, the noble traditions of the holy Prophet (s.a.) and any Hadith that does not agree with the holy Quran it is a useless statement.’"

H 202, Ch. 22, h 6

It is narrated through the same chain of narrators from ibn abu ‘Umayr from certain persons of his people who has said the following.

"Abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said, ‘Whoever disagrees with the book of Allah and the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.) he has certainly become a unbeliever.’"

________________

there are plenty more Quranic verses indicating importance of fighting, and not staying home (other than verse directed to ahl bayt members 33:33 which is in context of "wives" / see 33:30 - 33:32 )

so unless anybody can prove from Quran that one should accept tyrants and evil rule until some Qaym arrives, then the above arguments don't hold.

(wasalam)

Peace Seaker :)

Please kindly study the tafsir of the verses you mentioned, and don't leave aside the one that say the opposite.

Thank you.

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Salat is an obligation, but it is forbidden for women at certain times.

Sawm is an obligation, but it is forbidden when it is a danger for the health, etc.

Jihad is an obligation, but it is forbidden without an Imam Ma'soum (as).

Every act in Islam has his conditions.

To understand Quran, you HAVE to study it WITH the tafseer of the Ma'soumin (as), otherwise anybody can just give the interpretation he wants, and your view leads to wahabism.

Wa Salam

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ok show me the opposite please :)

thank you

The opposite, I have posted it above in the tafseer of : Là ikraha fi dîn : there is no compulsion in Religion (Surah 2. verse 256) which has been revealed at the end of the mission of Rasuluh Llâh (saws), when Islam was strong :

الحسين بن علي، عن أبيه علي بن أبي طالب عليھم السام أن المسلمين قالوا لرسول ﷲ صلى ﷲ عليه وآله: لو أكرھت يارسول ﷲ من قدرت عليه من الناس على ااسام لكثر عددنا وقوينا على عدونا ; فقال رسول ﷲ صلى ﷲ عليه وآله: ما كنت القى ﷲ عزوجل ببدعة لم يحدث إلي فيھا شيئا وما أنا من المتكلفين. فأنزل ﷲ تبارك وتعالى : يا محمد ” ولو شاء ربك آمن من في اارض كلھم جميعا ” على سبيل االجاء وااضطرار في الدنيا، كما يومنون عند المعاينة ورؤية البأس في اآخرة، ولو فعلت ذلك بھم لم يستحقوا مني ثوابا وا مدحا لكني أريد منھم أن يؤمنوا مختارين غير مضطرين، ليستحقوا مني الزلفى والكرامة ودوام الخلود في جنة الخلد، ” أفأنت تكره الناس حتى يكونوا مؤمنين

Imam Hussain (asws) said that Muslims came and requested my grandfather, Prophet Mohammed (saww) to force everyone to embrace Islam, so that Muslims form the majority, this would increase their strength against their enemies. Rasool Allah (saww) replied, No, I would certainly not do that as I do not want to introduce innovation in the Allah (azwj)’s Deen and would not appear in front of Him (azwj) with what He (azwj) has forbidden. I am not among those who force others against their wills. Thus, at this point, Allah (azwj) sent down the following Divine message: Ya Mohammed (saww)! If Your Lord (azwj) wanted, indeed, all inhabitants of the earth would embrace Eemaan. It was very easy for Me (azwj) to punish and compel them and they would submit to Me (azwj) as they will submit to Eemaan in the hereafter after observing no way out from their Lord’s wrath and submit to Me (azwj) in desperation. If I were do so in this world then there will be no eligible criteria for reward or punishment and that’s why I decided to let them act on their free-will so they either choose Eemaan or disobey My (azwj) Command by not submitting to Eemaan. They will stay in the Paradise forever by selecting the former option or face punishment in the hell-fire by becoming disbelievers. Ya Rasool (saww), surely, you would not like to compel them to embrace Eemaan?. (Ehtijaj-e-Tabrisi p 209).

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to understand tafseer and ahadeeth, we HAVE to study it with Quran first.

and all clear ayat of the quran that don't need tafsir, as they are in clear arabic, point towards fighting.

get me any aya that points otherwise .. in clear arabic. Quran has priority and comes first

Quran AND THEN ahl bayt.

not ahl bayt, then Quran

wasalaam

The opposite, I have posted it above in the tafseer of : Là ikraha fi dîn : there is no compulsion in Religion (Surah 2. verse 256) which has been revealed at the end of the mission of Rasuluh Llâh (saws), when Islam was strong :

الحسين بن علي، عن أبيه علي بن أبي طالب عليھم السام أن المسلمين قالوا لرسول ﷲ صلى ﷲ عليه وآله: لو أكرھت يارسول ﷲ من قدرت عليه من الناس على ااسام لكثر عددنا وقوينا على عدونا ; فقال رسول ﷲ صلى ﷲ عليه وآله: ما كنت القى ﷲ عزوجل ببدعة لم يحدث إلي فيھا شيئا وما أنا من المتكلفين. فأنزل ﷲ تبارك وتعالى : يا محمد ” ولو شاء ربك آمن من في اارض كلھم جميعا ” على سبيل االجاء وااضطرار في الدنيا، كما يومنون عند المعاينة ورؤية البأس في اآخرة، ولو فعلت ذلك بھم لم يستحقوا مني ثوابا وا مدحا لكني أريد منھم أن يؤمنوا مختارين غير مضطرين، ليستحقوا مني الزلفى والكرامة ودوام الخلود في جنة الخلد، ” أفأنت تكره الناس حتى يكونوا مؤمنين

Imam Hussain (asws) said that Muslims came and requested my grandfather, Prophet Mohammed (saww) to force everyone to embrace Islam, so that Muslims form the majority, this would increase their strength against their enemies. Rasool Allah (saww) replied, No, I would certainly not do that as I do not want to introduce innovation in the Allah (azwj)’s Deen and would not appear in front of Him (azwj) with what He (azwj) has forbidden. I am not among those who force others against their wills. Thus, at this point, Allah (azwj) sent down the following Divine message: Ya Mohammed (saww)! If Your Lord (azwj) wanted, indeed, all inhabitants of the earth would embrace Eemaan. It was very easy for Me (azwj) to punish and compel them and they would submit to Me (azwj) as they will submit to Eemaan in the hereafter after observing no way out from their Lord’s wrath and submit to Me (azwj) in desperation. If I were do so in this world then there will be no eligible criteria for reward or punishment and that’s why I decided to let them act on their free-will so they either choose Eemaan or disobey My (azwj) Command by not submitting to Eemaan. They will stay in the Paradise forever by selecting the former option or face punishment in the hell-fire by becoming disbelievers. Ya Rasool (saww), surely, you would not like to compel them to embrace Eemaan?. (Ehtijaj-e-Tabrisi p 209).

sorry mate, this does not annul all the clear verses in the quran saying we must fight for sake of Allah swt

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[surah 2, verse 193]

Tafsir ibn Abbas :

(And fight them) if they initiate fighting against you whether you are in the Sacred Precinct or not (until

persecution is no more) until there is not association of partners with Allah in the Sacred Precinct, (and

religion is for Allah) and Islam and worship of Allah reign in the Sacred Precinct. (If they desist) from

fighting you in the Sacred Precinct, (then let there be no hostility) you are not allowed to kill them (except

against wrong-doers) except those who start the fight against you.

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H 199, Ch. 22, h 3

A number of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Khalid from his father from al-Nadr ibn Suwayd from Yahya al-Halab from Ayyub ibn al-Hurr who has said the following.

"Abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) has said, ‘Everything must be referred to the holy Quran and the Sunnah, the noble traditions of the holy Prophet (s.a.) and any Hadith that does not agree with the holy Quran it is a useless statement.’"

Everything must be referred to the holy Quran and the Sunnah,

get me quran that agrees with your ahadeeth or statements please. word of Allah swt is superior to any other words

thanks

wasalaam

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[2:190]

(Fight in the way of Allah) in obedience of Allah whether in the Sacred Precinct or in other places (against

those who fight against you) against those who initiate fight against you, (but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah

loveth not aggressors) He does not love those who initiate fighting whether in the Sacred Precinct or in

other locations.

[2:191]

(And slay them) if they start the fight against you (wherever ye find them) whether in the Sacred Precinct or

in other places, (and drive them) out of Mecca (out of the places whence they drove you out) as they drove

you out of it, (for persecution) associating partners with Allah and worshipping idols (is worse) more evil

(than slaughter) in the Sacred Precinct. (And fight not with them) do not initiate a fight with them (at the

Inviolable Place of Worship) in the Sacred Precinct (until they attack you there) until they initiate a fight with

you in the Sacred Precinct, (but if they attack you (there)) first (then slay them. Such is the reward of

disbelievers) i.e. death is their reward.

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[surah 2, verse 193]

Tafsir ibn Abbas :

(And fight them) if they initiate fighting against you whether you are in the Sacred Precinct or not (until

persecution is no more) until there is not association of partners with Allah in the Sacred Precinct, (and

religion is for Allah) and Islam and worship of Allah reign in the Sacred Precinct. (If they desist) from

fighting you in the Sacred Precinct, (then let there be no hostility) you are not allowed to kill them (except

against wrong-doers) except those who start the fight against you.

yes it says that you can kill anybody who starts fighting you. that agrees with quran.

thank you!

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[2:216]

(Warfare is ordained for you) in times of a general call to arms with the Prophet (pbuh) (though it is hateful

unto you) hard on you; (but it may happen that ye hate a thing) fighting in the way of Allah (which is good

for you) in that you obtain martyrdom and spoils, (and it may happen that ye love a thing) abstaining from

fighting in the way of Allah (which is bad for you) in that you will not obtain martyrdom or spoils. (And Allah

knoweth) that fighting in His way is better for you, (ye know not) that abstention from fighting in His way is

bad for you. This was revealed about Sa'd Ibn Abi Waqqas, al-Miqdad Ibn al-Aswad and their associates. It

was then revealed regarding 'Abdullah Ibn Jahsh and his companions who killed 'Amr Ibn al-Hadrami and

their asking about warfare during the sacred month-in reference here to Rajab: i.e. the last afternoon of

Jumada II, before seeing the moon of Rajab-for the unbelievers had censored them from doing so.

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[2:190]

(Fight in the way of Allah) in obedience of Allah whether in the Sacred Precinct or in other places (against

those who fight against you) against those who initiate fight against you, (but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah

loveth not aggressors) He does not love those who initiate fighting whether in the Sacred Precinct or in

other locations.

[2:191]

(And slay them) if they start the fight against you (wherever ye find them) whether in the Sacred Precinct or

in other places, (and drive them) out of Mecca (out of the places whence they drove you out) as they drove

you out of it, (for persecution) associating partners with Allah and worshipping idols (is worse) more evil

(than slaughter) in the Sacred Precinct. (And fight not with them) do not initiate a fight with them (at the

Inviolable Place of Worship) in the Sacred Precinct (until they attack you there) until they initiate a fight with

you in the Sacred Precinct, (but if they attack you (there)) first (then slay them. Such is the reward of

disbelievers) i.e. death is their reward.

ok, but that still says that we must fight those who initiate a fight. i agree with that because in quran it says that we should not attack until being attacked. so that agrees with what is being said

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to understand tafseer and ahadeeth, we HAVE to study it with Quran first.

and all clear ayat of the quran that don't need tafsir, as they are in clear arabic, point towards fighting.

get me any aya that points otherwise .. in clear arabic. Quran has priority and comes first

Quran AND THEN ahl bayt.

not ahl bayt, then Quran

Rasuluh Llâh (saws) said : “I leave you two heavy things : the Quran and Ali. Know that Ali is better for you than the Quran, because he interprets it.” Ghayatul Maram, Al-Borhan, Irsad Al-Qoloub

And one without the other is void, because they CAN NEVER BE SEPARATED until they meet at the Hawd.

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if you want to prove me wrong, get me quran that contradicts what claims i have with quran.

if quran says one thing and your ahadeeth say another, then quran is right. Allahu Akbar

Rasuluh Llâh (saws) said : “I leave you two heavy things : the Quran and Ali. Know that Ali is better for you than the Quran, because he interprets it.” Ghayatul Maram, Al-Borhan, Irsad Al-Qoloub

And one without the other is void, because they CAN NEVER BE SEPARATED until they meet at the Hawd.

buddy, that's a very abstract statement that does not help us here. it's a nice hadith and everything, but Quran is a guide for all mankind and jinnkind. and you can also get me an interpretation of imam Ali telling us to stay home and not fight for justice if you want. or tafsir from Imam Ali annulling all the fighting verses in the quran.

ahadeeth are from other than Allah:

Then do they not reflect upon the

Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction. 4:92

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prove to me from Quran that the Quran is for rasul Allah.

no the Quran is for all of mankind. and jinn kind. that is what is written in the quran

don't get me ahadeeth that are contradicting quran!

Just read the verses of the Quran you mentioned with the verses that are preceding and the verses that are following, and you will see that the these are not general recommandation.

And remember that Imam 'Ali (as) was not allowed to attack Abu Bakr and Omar and do Jihad against them, although he had the strength to kill them.

All the Imam (as) received clear orders on when to attack, and when to abstain, and none of you receive Divine Revelation for that. Therefore, we should just wait our Imams (as) :

50- Ghaibat Nomani: It is narrated from Ibne Uqdah from Ahmad bin Yusuf from Ibne Mahran from Ibne Bataini from his father from Wahab bin Hafas from Abu Basir from Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) that he said one day:

“Shall I not inform of that without which the Almighty Allah does not accept the deeds of the people? I said: Please tell me what that is? He said: It is the testimony to the oneness of Allah and prophethood of Muhammad and belief in the words of Allah and friendship towards us and aloofness from the enemies of us Imams, and submission to them and sincerity and effort in religious matters and patience and awaiting for the reappearance of our Qaim.

Then he said: We are having a kingdom, when Allah wills, He will bring it about. Then he added: One who is desirous to be among the helpers of our Qaim should be waiting for his reappearance and should observe piety and follow good morals and pass his days in this way. If he dies in this condition and the Qaim appears after his death, he will be rewarded just as he had been alive. So make efforts and keep waiting. Glad tidings to you that the Almighty Allah has surrounded you with His mercy.

Ammar Sabati said :

“I asked Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.):

‘Which is better, worship in secret with a hidden Imam from among you during government by an illegal ruler, or worship during the manifestation of the Truth and its government with the manifest Imam from among you?’

He said: O Ammar, giving Sadaqah in secret is better, by Allah, than giving it openly;

similarly, by Allah, your worship in secret with your hidden Imam during government by an illegal ruler, and your fear of your enemy during government by an illegal ruler and in a state of truce with your enemy, is better than that you should worship Allah, may remembrance of Him be made Mighty and Majestic, during the manifestation of the Truth with the Imam of Truth, which is manifest during the government of Truth.

Worship while you fear during government by an illegal ruler is not the same as worship and security during the government of Truth.

Know that whoever of you now prays a prescribed prayer at its hour in congregation, thereby concealing himself from his enemy, and completes it correctly, Allah will register rewards for having completed fifty prescribed prayers in congregation;

and that whoever of you prays a prescribed prayers at its hour by himself, thereby concealing himself from his enemy, and completes it correctly, Allah to Whom belong Might and Majesty, will register thereby reward for having completed twenty-five prescribed prayers recited alone;

and that whoever of you prays a supererogatory prayers at its hour and completes it correctly, Allah will register thereby reward for having completed ten supererogatory prayers;

and that whoever of you performs a good deed, Allah to Whom belong Might and Majesty, will register reward for having performed twenty good deeds;

and Allah, to Whom belong Might and Majesty, will handsomely double [the reward] of the good deeds of the believer among you when he does good deeds and practices Taqayyah with regard to his religion, his Imam and himself, and keeps his tongue in check; for Allah, to Whom belong Might and Majesty, is Generous.’

“I said: ‘May I be made your ransom, by Allah you have encouraged me to do good deeds, and spurred me on to them, but I should like to know how we shall be better in [our] deeds at this time than the companions of the manifest Imam from among you during the government of Truth, since we are of a single religion?’

He said: “Indeed, you outstrip them in involvement in the religion of Allah, to Whom belong Might and Majesty, and in prayers, fasting, Hajj and in every good deed and knowledge, and in worshipping Allah, may remembrance of Him be made Mighty and Majestic, secretly from your enemy, while concealing the truth about your Imam, being obedient to him and being patient with him, awaiting the government of the Truth, apprehensive about your Imam and yourselves before oppressive sovereigns.

You see the rights of your Imam and your own rights in the hands of the oppressors: they take them away from you and force you to work hard on the land and struggle to make a livelihood, and be patient about your religion, your worship, obedience to your Imam and fear of your enemy. For this, Allah, to whom belong Might and Majesty, will double the reward for your actions for you, may it be pleasing to you.’

“I said: ‘May I be your ransom, what do you think? That we should be companions of Qaim and [see] the Truth manifest itself, or that today, in your Imamate, obedient to you, we are better in [our] deeds than the contemporaries of the government of Truth and Justice?’

He said: “Glory be to Allah! Do you not wish that Allah the blessed, the sublime, should make the Truth and Justice appear in the lands?

That Allah should cause people’s speech to harmonize, and that Allah should unite the diverse hearts of people?

That they should not rebel against Allah, to whom belong Might and Majesty, in His land? That His restriction should apply among His creatures, and that Allah should return the rights to His people so that it may become manifest, so that nothing of the Truth might be concealed through fear of any one of His creatures?

By Allah, O Ammar, indeed no one among you will die in the condition you are in, but he will be more perfect before Allah than many of the martyrs of Badr and Uhad. May you rejoice!’”

snapback.pngpeace seeker, on 22 February 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

yes it says that you can kill anybody who starts fighting you. that agrees with quran.

thank you!

Allah is speaking to Rasuluh Llâh (saws), not to you, in these verses because if you read what precedes and what follows, and you read the tafseer, you'll find about the specific context.

Everybody knows that there is a methodology to follow when you study the Quran, and nobody with some reason would just pick a verse and follow it blindy.

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Just read the verses of the Quran you mentioned with the verses that are preceding and the verses that are following, and you will see that there are not general recommandation.

look man, i don't want the two of us to steal the show here. let's get to the point and if you can get me verses (any verse, be they before after, or from anywhere) that prove me wrong, then do so.

i'd rather you discuss with me about quran as center-stage right now, because that's my argument. feel free to get me tafsirs of ahl bayt in relation to quranic verses.

of course there is truth in taqya and awaiting the final imam and all, but that is a different more detailed conversation. (in historical and individual tailor-made context)

Quranic verses clearly state we must fight (my statment)

prove me wrong with Quran, tafsir of Quran, ahl abyt comments of Quran, etc

thanks

(wasalam)

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and i want to go back to the statement that ahadeeth are from other than Allah swt:

personally i believe that the ones that are unanimously agreed upon, as well as being in line with Quran clearly for all to see, those are from Allah swt, and will not have contradiction. as the word of Allah and the words of prophets and imams are linked.

anyway, that is just a little addition there with how i see it, based on ahadeeth i read about sunna of prophet imam and them being the sunnah of Allah.

wAllahu Aalam

(wasalam)

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Do you know what will happen to you if you kill an innocent (woman, old person, child, animal, or a man who is not a soldier ) with a bomb or a gun by mistake ?

Do you know what Allah says about someone killing a soul who is innocent ?

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and there are always reasons why Imam Ali (as) didn't attack omar and abu bakr etc. your interpretation thereof is not a green light to ignore clear verses of quran.

get me clear verses of quran stating that we are to not fight if you can (i don't think you can)

and strategic retreats or decisions by imams are something else.

get me quranic verses.

brother, this is the last, or almost my last post to you about that :)

Do you know what will happen to you if you kill an innocent with a bomb by mistake ?

Do you know what Allah says about someone killing a soul which is innocent ?

by mistake, usually people get forgiven. and in warfare always mistakes seem to happen.

plus, you and i are not Allah swt to judge what will happen in judgment day.

you and i have to get our intentions right and understanding or Allah's commandments, as per the Quran and the ahadeeth that agree with the Quran

may Allah swt protect us from ever committing any mistakes, in sha Allah

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If your definition of Jihad is calling people to Islam, and kill the opposants, here is the answer :

لَا إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ ۖ قَدْ تَبَيَّنَ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ ۚ فَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بِالطَّاغُوتِ وَيُؤْمِنْ بِاللَّهِ فَقَدِ اسْتَمْسَكَ بِالْعُرْوَةِ الْوُثْقَىٰ لَا انْفِصَامَ لَهَا ۗ وَاللَّهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ

There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.

The opposite, I have posted it above in the tafseer of : Là ikraha fi dîn : there is no compulsion in Religion (Surah 2. verse 256) which has been revealed at the end of the mission of Rasuluh Llâh (saws), when Islam was strong :

الحسين بن علي، عن أبيه علي بن أبي طالب عليھم السام أن المسلمين قالوا لرسول ﷲ صلى ﷲ عليه وآله: لو أكرھت يارسول ﷲ من قدرت عليه من الناس على ااسام لكثر عددنا وقوينا على عدونا ; فقال رسول ﷲ صلى ﷲ عليه وآله: ما كنت القى ﷲ عزوجل ببدعة لم يحدث إلي فيھا شيئا وما أنا من المتكلفين. فأنزل ﷲ تبارك وتعالى : يا محمد ” ولو شاء ربك آمن من في اارض كلھم جميعا ” على سبيل االجاء وااضطرار في الدنيا، كما يومنون عند المعاينة ورؤية البأس في اآخرة، ولو فعلت ذلك بھم لم يستحقوا مني ثوابا وا مدحا لكني أريد منھم أن يؤمنوا مختارين غير مضطرين، ليستحقوا مني الزلفى والكرامة ودوام الخلود في جنة الخلد، ” أفأنت تكره الناس حتى يكونوا مؤمنين

Imam Hussain (asws) said that Muslims came and requested my grandfather, Prophet Mohammed (saww) to force everyone to embrace Islam, so that Muslims form the majority, this would increase their strength against their enemies. Rasool Allah (saww) replied, No, I would certainly not do that as I do not want to introduce innovation in the Allah (azwj)’s Deen and would not appear in front of Him (azwj) with what He (azwj) has forbidden. I am not among those who force others against their wills. Thus, at this point, Allah (azwj) sent down the following Divine message: Ya Mohammed (saww)! If Your Lord (azwj) wanted, indeed, all inhabitants of the earth would embrace Eemaan. It was very easy for Me (azwj) to punish and compel them and they would submit to Me (azwj) as they will submit to Eemaan in the hereafter after observing no way out from their Lord’s wrath and submit to Me (azwj) in desperation. If I were do so in this world then there will be no eligible criteria for reward or punishment and that’s why I decided to let them act on their free-will so they either choose Eemaan or disobey My (azwj) Command by not submitting to Eemaan. They will stay in the Paradise forever by selecting the former option or face punishment in the hell-fire by becoming disbelievers. Ya Rasool (saww), surely, you would not like to compel them to embrace Eemaan?. (Ehtijaj-e-Tabrisi p 209).

It has been narrated from Ammar Bin Musa who asked Abu Abdullah asws about the ordinances. He asws said: ‘Whoever gives a ruling between two has disbelieved. Whoever interprets a Verse from the Book of Allah azwj has disbelieved. Bihar Ul Anwaar –Ch 89H 15 –Tafseer Ayyashi


The Holy Prophet saww said; ‘Whoever speaks from the Quran without knowledge let him take his place in the fire.’ And he saww said: ‘Whoever speaks from the Quran by his opinion has erred.’ BiharUlAnwaar–Ch89H20


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It your definition of Jihad is calling people to Islam, and kill the opposants, here is the answer :

لَا إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ ۖ قَدْ تَبَيَّنَ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ ۚ فَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بِالطَّاغُوتِ وَيُؤْمِنْ بِاللَّهِ فَقَدِ اسْتَمْسَكَ بِالْعُرْوَةِ الْوُثْقَىٰ لَا انْفِصَامَ لَهَا ۗ وَاللَّهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ

There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.

"It your definition of Jihad is calling people to Islam, and kill the opposants"

i don't fully understand what you are trying to say here about my statements!

there is no compulsion in understanding religion, just like there is no compulsion in following the clear verses in the quran.

defending and fighting is not part of dawa or propagation of religion. it's a human right and duty upon every muslim. (to their extend and abilities and means)

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The pagans are to be called to Islam and abandon their paganism before Jihad is initiated against them as the ahadeeth say. The Murtad is to be killed and in some instances his repentance is accepted in others it's not. Again these are from the narrations not something I have made up from myself.

It was an answer to this post.

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ah sorry mate :P ok, i'll step out of this thread in hope that other people contribute in sha Allah.

thanks LoverofTruth and may Allah swt always enlighten you to the truth in sha Allah

(wasalam)

Thanks "peace seeker", may Allah (SWT) always enlighten you to the Truth too.

Wa 'alaykum Salam wa Rahmatullah

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These are only your interpretations, selecting the parts that fit your point of view, and leaving aside the parts that contradicts it.

Just one example :

Quote

Ghaibat Nomani: It is narrated from Ibne Uqdah from Ali bin Hasan Taimili from Ibne Mahbub from Abu Ayyub from Muhammad Ibne Muslim from Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) that he said:

“Fear Allah, be pious and patient before the distresses of life and try your best to obey Allah. The utmost happiness of a faithful is when he thinks of the afterlife and turns his back to this life and its transient pleasures. If one reaches this degree of faith, he will know that he will get bliss, honor and the reward of being in Paradise. He will feel safe from what he has feared and will be certain that he has been with the truth and those, who oppose his beliefs, are certainly on the wrong path and will surely perish.

Be delighted that you will get what you look forward to. Do you not see that your enemies hurry towards sins and kill each other just for the pleasures of this life, while you are safe in your houses and away from them? It suffices you that Sufyani will avenge you on your enemies. It is one of the signs to you. Although he is sinful, but you will be safe for a month or two after his rising, until he kills much many people other than you."

It concerns all shi'a until the coming of the Mahdi (as) !

If it is a General statement it wouldn't be dependent on a situation the Imam(as) is explaining. The reason as the scholars explain are specific not General.

For your information, the only JUST Imam (as) are the Messenger of God (saws) and the 12 Imams (as) of his progeny, because they are the only one who are protected from all sins :

'Adala is a trait any momin can have, like in certain cases where a witness of a just person is needed. 'Isma (Infallibilty) is only for the Imams(as).

12 – Chapter on the conditioning of the obligation of jihad by the command of the Imam and his permission, and the forbiddance of jihad with other than the just Imam

[ 19954 ] 1 ـ محمد بن يعقوب ، عن محمد بن يحيى ، عن محمد بن الحسين ، عن علي بن النعمان ، عن سويد القلاء ، عن بشير (1) ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : قلت له : إني رأيت في المنام أني قلت لك إن القتال مع غيرالامام المفترض طاعته حرام مثل الميتة والدم ولحم الخنزير ، فقلت لي : نعم هو كذلك ، فقال أبو عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) : هو كذلك هو كذلك .

وعن محمد بن الحسن الطائي ، عمن ذكره ، عن علي بن النعمان ، عن سويد القلاء ، عن بشير الدهان مثله (2) .

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from Muhammad b. Yahya from Muhammad b. al-Husayn from `Ali b. an-Nu`man from Suwayd al-Qalla from Bashir from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: I said to him: Verily I saw in my dream that I said to you: Verily fighting with other than the Imam whose obedience is obligatory is forbidden like carrion, blood, and the meat of swine. So you said to me: Yes, it is as so. So Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام said: It is as so, it is as so.

Again this Hadith is to distinguish between fighting under someone who claims Imamate for himself (and his cause) and fighting under the true Imam or his cause. Because as we know there were individuals who were not ma'soomeen and the Imams(as) praised their Jihad since it was for the cause of Ahlul Bayt(as). To understand this important point pay close attention to the following authentic Hadith from al Kafi which ironically Sheikh Hurr uses it under the chapter of forbiddance of rising before the Qaim(as).

Imam as Sadiq (as) has said "...Do not say: ‘Zayd rose up’, for Zayd was a scholar and a truthful person and he did not call you to himself. Rather he called you to the pleasure of the progeny of the Prophet (pbuh). If he had been victorious, he would have remained loyal to that cause for which he called you to. He rose up against a united (tyrant) ruler in order to overcome him. The one from among us who rises up today, to what does he call you? To the pleasure of the Progeny of the Prophet (pbuh)?!" (Al Kafi)

So since Zayd(ra) did not call people to himself i.e claim Imamate for himself but rather to the cause of the Ahlul Bayt(as) his Jihad was praised by the Imams(as) and there are other ahadith that the Imams(as) actually cursed those who abandoned Zayd after calling him to so Jihad. And there other example of this like Mukhtar ath Thaqafi, Kumayl ibn Ziyad and others whose rise was not for themselves but rather for the cause of the Imams(as).

[ 19961 ] 8 ـ محمد بن علي بن الحسين في ( العلل ) عن أبيه ، عن سعد ، عن محمد بن عيسى ، عن القاسم بن يحيى ، عن جده الحسن بن راشد ، عن أبي بصير ، عن أبي عبدالله ، عن آبائه (عليهم السلام) قال : قال أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام ) : لا يخرج المسلم في الجهاد مع من لا يؤمن على الحكم ، ولا ينفذ في الفيء أمر الله عزّ وجلّ ، فانه إن مات في ذلك المكان كان معينا لعدونا في حبس حقنا والاشاطة (1) بدمائنا وميتته ميتة جاهلية .

وفي ( الخصال ) بإسناده عن علي ( عليه السلام ) ـ في حديث الاربعمائة ـ مثله (2) .

8 – Muhammad b. `Ali b. al-Husayn in al-`Ilal from his father from Sa`d from Muhammad b. `Isa from al-Qasim b. Yahya from his grandfather al-Hasan b. Rashid from Abu Basir from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام from his fathers عليهم السلام. He said: Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام said: The Muslim does not go out in jihad with someone who is not entrusted with the rule, and who does not carry out the command of Allah عزّ وجلّ in regards to the fay’. For if he died in that place, he would be a helper to our enemy in the seizure of our right and exposing us to destruction, and his death would be a death of Jahiliyya.

And in al-Khisal by his isnad from `Ali عليه السلام in the hadith of the four hundred likewise.

This Hadith makes it clear that the Imams(as) is referring to the illegitimate leaders who have usurped the leadership of the true Imams(as) and those who fight under such leaders are the helper of the ENEMIES of the Imam.

1. The Sufyani is an ennemy of the Mahdi (as).

2. The following hadith tells us not to follow the Khurasani :

[sayf b. 'Umayra (reported) on the authority of Bakr b. Muhammad, on the authority of Abu 'Abd Allah (Jafar al-Sadiq), peace be on him:]

(Jafar al-Sadiq) said: "There will be three appearances in one year, one month and one day : the Sufyani, the Khurasani and the Yamani. The standard of guidance will not be among them, except the standard of the Yamani, because he will summon (people) to the truth."

I meant the Yamani it was an error, yet again the ahadeeth about the Yamani destroy your 'being submissive" argument. Since the Yamani rises before the Mahdi(as) and he is neither a ma'soom nor an Imam but the Imams have urged Shi'a to support his uprising since his banner is in support of the Qaim(as).

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Ali Abdullah 313, did you find any references yet?

Muhammad b. Ya`qub from Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Ibn Abi `Umayr from Hisham b. Salim from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: A group came to Amir al-Mumineen عليه السلام, and they said: Peace be upon you, O our Lord! So he sought their repentance, but they did not repent. So he dug a pit for them and lit a fire in it and dug a pit to its other side and conveyed between them (i.e. joined the two pits to one another). So when they did not repent he threw them in the pit and lit (the fire) in the other pit until they died.

(Wasael ash Shi'a, Book of Hudud, Chapter on the Ghulat and Qadariyya)

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[2:190]

(Fight in the way of Allah) in obedience of Allah whether in the Sacred Precinct or in other places (against

those who fight against you) against those who initiate fight against you, (but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah

loveth not aggressors) He does not love those who initiate fighting whether in the Sacred Precinct or in

other locations.

[2:191]

(And slay them) if they start the fight against you (wherever ye find them) whether in the Sacred Precinct or

in other places, (and drive them) out of Mecca (out of the places whence they drove you out) as they drove

you out of it, (for persecution) associating partners with Allah and worshipping idols (is worse) more evil

(than slaughter) in the Sacred Precinct. (And fight not with them) do not initiate a fight with them (at the

Inviolable Place of Worship) in the Sacred Precinct (until they attack you there) until they initiate a fight with

you in the Sacred Precinct, (but if they attack you (there)) first (then slay them. Such is the reward of

disbelievers) i.e. death is their reward.

There are several points you have taken out of context in these ayaat from al Baqra. First it's regarding the Mushrikeen of Mecca whom the Muslims had a treaty with but they (Mushrikeen) broke it by fighting the Muslims. So Allah is only commanding the Muslims to fight those who fought them since they broke the treaty. It is not a condition or a restriction that is set, i.e it doesn't mean that the Muslims should fight with them only if they are fought against. It is only referring to a fact, that fight the polytheists who are currently engaged in fighting you. Secondly when it says "do not fight them in the sacred Mosque until they fight with you" is a specific rule only restricted to Masjidal Haram . Thirdly you have inserted a lot of your own words (or the website you copy pasting from into 2:190 that is not in the actual Quran.

You have posted:

(Fight in the way of Allah) in obedience of Allah whether in the Sacred Precinct or in other places (against

those who fight against you) against those who initiate fight against you, (but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah

loveth not aggressors) He does not love those who initiate fighting whether in the Sacred Precinct or in

The actual translation and content of the ayaah without the added words in the brackets is:

" And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you and do not exceed the limits. Verily, Allah loves not those who exceed the limit."

Furthermore there are many verses ( 9:29, 8:39 and others) that refute your idea that fighting is only allowed when it is initiated by the Kuffar. Since Allah(swt) says fight them till the religion is only for Allah(swt). In other words the goal of fighting is to remove the fitna of Kufr and Shirk till only Allah is worshipped.

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Muhammad b. Ya`qub from Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Ibn Abi `Umayr from Hisham b. Salim from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: A group came to Amir al-Mumineen عليه السلام, and they said: Peace be upon you, O our Lord! So he sought their repentance, but they did not repent. So he dug a pit for them and lit a fire in it and dug a pit to its other side and conveyed between them (i.e. joined the two pits to one another). So when they did not repent he threw them in the pit and lit (the fire) in the other pit until they died.

(Wasael ash Shi'a, Book of Hudud, Chapter on the Ghulat and Qadariyya)

Thanks, so that shows that Imam Ali can punish people who exaggerate his status to the level of God.

I think there's no true precedent however, of hurting and killing people who don't believe in Islam, and minding their own business. They are left to their beliefs.

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Thanks, so that shows that Imam Ali can punish people who exaggerate his status to the level of God.

I think there's no true precedent however, of hurting and killing people who don't believe in Islam, and minding their own business. They are left to their beliefs.

No thats not true they are not left to follow Shirk and Kufr. In fact the Prophet(saw) sent Imam Ali(as) to preach Islam to the people of Yemen just before Ghadir Khum after he came back with spoils of War and some people disputed with Imam Ali(as) (om the way) and already divided the spoils until Imam Ali(as) took it all back so to hand it over to RasulAllah(saw).

al-Sukuni narrates from Imam Saadiq (A) who said:

‘Amir-ul-Mu’mineen ‘Ali said: ‘The Messenger of Allah sent me

to Yemen and said: ‘O ‘Ali, do not fight anyone until you have

invited him to Islam for if Allah should give his guidance to one

man through your hands it would be better for you than the whole

Earth and you would have his loyalty O ‘Ali.’ (Dai'm al Islam)

It is also narrated in the same book from Ameer al Momineen(as) that he said: ‘A people should not be fought until they have been invited to Islam."

Also in Ghawali al-Layali from the Prophet (S) who said:

‘The infidels should not be fought until after the invitation to Islam.’

Also in Da’aim al-Islam relatedfrom Imam al-Saadiq (A),

from his forefathers, from Amir-ul-Mu’mineen (A) that whenever the

Messenger of Allah (S) sent an army or a raiding party, would enjoin

God fearing piety upon its leader personally and then upon the rest of the

troops in general and would say: ‘Fight in the name of Allah and in the

way of Allah and according to the creed of the Messenger of Allah (S).

Do not fight the people until you have the justification by inviting them

to testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is his

messenger and to confirm what he (Muhammad) has brought from Allah.

If they respond then they are your brothers in faith and you should then

invite them to move from their territory to the towns of the Muslims . . .’

More on the permission of fighting the Kuffar and Mushrikeen till they accept Islam:

Imam as Sadiq(as) relates from Ameer al Momineen(as) that he said:

“The Messenger of Allah (S), when he sent out an army or a

raiding party would enjoin God fearing piety upon its leader

personally and on the rest of the Muslims who were with him. He

(S) would say: ‘Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah

. . . and do not kill children or the elderly or women (meaning as

long as they do not fight you), and do not mutilate and do not tie

up or handcuff, and do not use perfidious means.”

Imam as Sadiq(as) allowing Jihad in the absence of an Imam if it is for inviting to Islam.

Abu ‘Urwah al-Sulami, from Imam Saadiq (A) who was

asked by a man who said: ‘I used to go on frequent military excursions

and would travel far in seeking reward and would be absent for long

periods of time. This began to be hard on me. Then I was told that there

is to be no military campaigns in the absence of the just Imam. What is

your opinion?’ He (A) said: ‘Shall I be brief or in detail?’ He said:

‘Why, in detail.’ He (A) said: Allah will bring the people before him on

the Day of Resurrection according to their intentions . . .’ (as if man

wished the Imam to be brief.) The man said: ‘Tell me in brief.’ He (A)

said: ‘Ask your question.’ The man said: ‘If I went on a raid and battled

the Polytheists is it necessary to call them to Islam before I fight them?’

He (A) said: ‘If they raid and fight and are fought then you can fight

them. If they are however, a people who have not raided or fought then

you may not fight them until you call them to Islam.’

The man said: ‘I called them and one answered and entered Islam in his

heart. When he was in the Muslim country, he was treated unjustly, his

dignity was violated and his possession was taken from him, and his

rights abused. Am I responsible for this, as I had called him to Islam?

Imam Saadiq (A) said: “You are both rewarded for what has happened.

It is better that he is with you defending you, your family, your Qiblah

and your Book, rather than being against you, fighting you, violating

your dignity, spilling your blood and burning book.”

Anyone interested in a detailed exposition on this topic should refer to the book of Sayyid Sadiq Rohani, Kitab al Jihad. (It is in Arabic) http://gadir.free.fr/sadik/fokh/13/index.htm

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No thats not true they are not left to follow Shirk and Kufr. In fact the Prophet(saw) sent Imam Ali(as) to preach Islam to the people of Yemen just before Ghadir Khum after he came back with spoils of War and some people disputed with Imam Ali(as) (om the way) and already divided the spoils until Imam Ali(as) took it all back so to hand it over to RasulAllah(saw).

al-Sukuni narrates from Imam Saadiq (A) who said:

‘Amir-ul-Mu’mineen ‘Ali said: ‘The Messenger of Allah sent me

to Yemen and said: ‘O ‘Ali, do not fight anyone until you have

invited him to Islam for if Allah should give his guidance to one

man through your hands it would be better for you than the whole

Earth and you would have his loyalty O ‘Ali.’ (Dai'm al Islam)

It is also narrated in the same book from Ameer al Momineen(as) that he said: ‘A people should not be fought until they have been invited to Islam."

Also in Ghawali al-Layali from the Prophet (S) who said:

‘The infidels should not be fought until after the invitation to Islam.’

Also in Da’aim al-Islam relatedfrom Imam al-Saadiq (A),

from his forefathers, from Amir-ul-Mu’mineen (A) that whenever the

Messenger of Allah (S) sent an army or a raiding party, would enjoin

God fearing piety upon its leader personally and then upon the rest of the

troops in general and would say: ‘Fight in the name of Allah and in the

way of Allah and according to the creed of the Messenger of Allah (S).

Do not fight the people until you have the justification by inviting them

to testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is his

messenger and to confirm what he (Muhammad) has brought from Allah.

If they respond then they are your brothers in faith and you should then

invite them to move from their territory to the towns of the Muslims . . .’

More on the permission of fighting the Kuffar and Mushrikeen till they accept Islam:

Imam as Sadiq(as) relates from Ameer al Momineen(as) that he said:

“The Messenger of Allah (S), when he sent out an army or a

raiding party would enjoin God fearing piety upon its leader

personally and on the rest of the Muslims who were with him. He

(S) would say: ‘Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah

. . . and do not kill children or the elderly or women (meaning as

long as they do not fight you), and do not mutilate and do not tie

up or handcuff, and do not use perfidious means.”

Imam as Sadiq(as) allowing Jihad in the absence of an Imam if it is for inviting to Islam.

Abu ‘Urwah al-Sulami, from Imam Saadiq (A) who was

asked by a man who said: ‘I used to go on frequent military excursions

and would travel far in seeking reward and would be absent for long

periods of time. This began to be hard on me. Then I was told that there

is to be no military campaigns in the absence of the just Imam. What is

your opinion?’ He (A) said: ‘Shall I be brief or in detail?’ He said:

‘Why, in detail.’ He (A) said: Allah will bring the people before him on

the Day of Resurrection according to their intentions . . .’ (as if man

wished the Imam to be brief.) The man said: ‘Tell me in brief.’ He (A)

said: ‘Ask your question.’ The man said: ‘If I went on a raid and battled

the Polytheists is it necessary to call them to Islam before I fight them?’

He (A) said: ‘If they raid and fight and are fought then you can fight

them. If they are however, a people who have not raided or fought then

you may not fight them until you call them to Islam.’

The man said: ‘I called them and one answered and entered Islam in his

heart. When he was in the Muslim country, he was treated unjustly, his

dignity was violated and his possession was taken from him, and his

rights abused. Am I responsible for this, as I had called him to Islam?

Imam Saadiq (A) said: “You are both rewarded for what has happened.

It is better that he is with you defending you, your family, your Qiblah

and your Book, rather than being against you, fighting you, violating

your dignity, spilling your blood and burning book.”

Hmm. So none of these seem to support the interpretation you're pushing.

I think the take-aways are:

- that you should invite people to Islam, as the Prophet and Imams did

- then leave them alone

- if the disbelievers come and fight you, you should not immediately retaliate, but ask them to become Muslims

- if they become Muslims, you can no longer fight them

- if they don't become Muslims, and are still launching a war, you can fight them back

And then in the war, as the Quran says, if they surrender or turn away you no longer fight either.

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Hmm. So none of these seem to support the interpretation you're pushing.

I think the take-away is that you should invite people to Islam, as the Prophet and Imams did. And then leave them alone. If they fight you, you fight back.

You have completely missed the meaning of those ahadeeth, for example when the Prophet(saw) said "‘O ‘Ali, do not fight anyone until you have invited him to Islam". Reciprocally it means you can fight them after you have invited them to Islam and they have rejected it. Its like me saying "do no eat the food until you say Bismillah", so conversely it means after you have said Bismillah you should can eat the food". The problem with alot of people reading and posting ahadeeth is they don't comprehend its meaning.

And then in the war, as the Quran says, if they surrender or turn away you no longer fight either.

The Quran says if they establish prayer and pay the zakaat and the religion is only Allah's ie beocome Muslim or in another ayah pay the jizya.

Edited by Ali Abdullah 313
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You have completely missed the meaning of those ahadeeth, for example when the Prophet(saw) said "‘O ‘Ali, do not fight anyone until you have invited him to Islam". Reciprocally it means you can fight them after you have invited them to Islam and they have rejected it. Its like me saying "do no eat the food until you say Bismillah", so conversely it means after you have said Bismillah you should can eat the food". The problem with alot of people reading and posting ahadeeth is they don't comprehend its meaning.

That's one way of looking at it, and I think it's a leap. If we had to go and forcibly convert everyone to Islam and kill the ones who refuse, I think it would have been more clear. Perhaps 'don't fight before inviting to Islam' is for when you find yourself in a war with them?

The Quran says if they establish prayer and pay the zakaat and the religion is only Allah's ie beocome Muslim or in another ayah pay the jizya.

Sure, every grown man pays taxes in an Islamic state, whether Muslim or non-Muslim (the Arabic word for the tax non-Muslims pay is jizya).

Edited by aliasghark
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Sheikh at Tusi in his book says regarding Jihad:

[The ones against whom one does jihad from] the kuffar are of two types:

1 – The type that are fought against until they accept Islam, or until they are killed, or until they accept the jizya.

And they are three groups: the Jews, the Christians, and the Zoroastrians.

2 – The others from whom the jizya is not accepted. They are fought until they accept Islam or until they are killed. And they are everyone apart from the three mentioned groups.

This is pretty much unanimous among all scholars. Only someone who doesn't know the basic rulings dispute this issue. The only difference of opinion among scholars is whether initiating Jihad can be done without the Ma'soum. Most of the scholars like Sayyid al Khoei, Sayyid Sadiq Rohani, Sheikh al Fayyadh, Sayyid Khamenei and others are of the opinion that it is permissible. Others like Imam Khomaini, Sayyid Muhammad Shirazi, and others only allow defensive Jihad.

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