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Ali-F

Imams Have Wilaya Takweenia And They Can Forget

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If I could decipher what you actually meant, then yes I would answer though you question doesn't make any sense.

My question is very simple and just answer according to you assumptions and understanding.

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Is asking a help is a worship?

What does that mean?

Don't you mean 'is asking for help a form of worship?'

I already responded to that. I asked you a question.

So you don't see a difference in asking people and asking Allah?

Dua is for Allah or people?

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What does that mean?

Don't you mean 'is asking for help a form of worship?'

I already responded to that. I asked you a question.

So you don't see a difference in asking people and asking Allah?

Dua is for Allah or people?

Listen,

Asking a help is an action and that action can be right or wrong depending on the intention. If you are asking a bread from your mother and inside your heart you believed that she is the MAKER, the TRUE OWNER or RISQ GIVER to you then that action is a form of worship and shirk and it is wrong. It is a form of worship to your mother.

However, if asking for help or things with an intention and belief that Allah swt is the MAKER, TRUE OWNER or RISQ GIVER and your mother, father...anything else are just a MEAN then that is a worship and that asking is acceptable with no shirk in it.

All actions must comes with true intention so that all our actions in life is a form of worship. Asking help from others are not worship to that person if the intention is correct and asking others (even a bread) for help with no correct intention is a sin because we forget to attribute all goods are from Allah swt.

Edited by layman

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Okay, I understand your point. But explain why the Desert Arabs are so heavily condemned in the Qur'an?

They still believed in Allah and worshiped Him. The Qur'an even records them saying that the idols are nothing but a means to seek nearness to Allah.

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This is plain shirk...

They are hands, eyes of Allah , and that is not shirk but said by Imam,(as) recorded in Kitab ul Touheed by Sh Sadooq. Before declaring anything as shirk, get yourselves acquainted with some Religious texts. Its very easy to become SC mujtahid.

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1) What makes you think that the intercession mention isn't speaking about the Day of Judgement?

2) Nade Ali is a fabricated poem of Shirk. Please don't recite it brother

Why you need someone on day of judgement? Why not reach directly? How would you call anyone else that day, and it would be fine when it was shirk in this world? Can a shirk in this life turns out to be Touheed in next?

And if you think that no chains for Naad e Ali,(as) means fabrication. Then all those letter of Nehj ul balagha you quote for your means, and Duas in Sahifa e Sajjadia you refer a lot, do they have chains? Show me please then?

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And if you think that no chains for Naad e Ali, (as) means fabrication. Then all those letter of Nehj ul balagha you quote for your means, and Duas in Sahifa e Sajjadia you refer a lot, do they have chains? Show me please then?

1. The chains for the letters in Nahj al-Balagha are in the original source works (i.e. Tarikh al-Tabari and others). There are too many to post here, but you can refer to Reza Shah-Kazemis works where he mentions that these have been reconstructed.

2. The chain for Sahifa al-Sajjadiya is normally included at the beginning of it. You can look up the version translated by William Chittick.

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What does that mean?

Don't you mean 'is asking for help a form of worship?'

I already responded to that. I asked you a question.

So you don't see a difference in asking people and asking Allah?

Dua is for Allah or people?

(bismillah)

Salam bro

Asking Imam Ali(as) for help or Tawasul in general is not shirk. I recommend you do a little more research on Tawasul as I used to have a similar view on it before as you do now until a little research done on it convinced me that it has roots in Islam.

That being said, using your logic, would it be shirk to ask people for help? For example, imagine you are in a life threatening situation desperate for help and a passerby sees you, would you call them to help you or would it be considered shirk because as you stated, you should only seek Allah(swt) for help? The thing is, when that person helps you, it is actually with the will and power of Allah(swt) that allowed the person to come to your aid. Moreover , it is absolute shirk to believe that the person comes comes to your aid without the will and power of Allah(swt) because Allah(swt) alone is in control of every everything and none of his creations share a similar divine power as he does.

Here is another example. Using your logic, wouldn't it be shirk to ask someone to make Duaa for you because you are asking help for Allah(swt) through someone? Using your logic again, I would say, why do I need to ask people to make duaa for me when I can directly ask for Allah(swt)? The thing is, there is no difference between asking him directly or through someone else via duaa because at the end, only Allah(swt) alone will answer your duaa weather the entire world makes duaa for you or not.

The same thing applies with asking Imam Ali(as) or any of the infallibles for help. The thing is, when you ask Imam Ali(as) for help, you are actually seeking intercession to Allah(swt) through Imam Ali(as). In other words, you are asking Imam Ali(as) to ask AllahÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì in order to answer your prayers or request. Of course, it is absolute shirk to believe that Imam Ali(as) alone has the same power and divine attributes of Allah(swt) that he can use to answer your prayers. Only Allah(swt) alone can answer your prayers and asking him through Imam Ali(as) will not make a difference as to asking him directly. However, Allah(swt) mentions in the Quran that it is mustahab to reach him through other means than just via obligatory prayers or fasting but also through duaa including intercession through the Ahlulbayt. Now if you are wondering as to how Imam Ali(as) can hear you if he has been martyred for 1400 years, then let me tell you that Imam Ali(swt) is actually alive and can hear you as well as the rest of the Ahlulbayt. The Quran clearly mentions that the Shuhadaa(martyrs) who are the most sincere believers are alive in the heavens and can here your calls. This link to a thread below has all the references from the Quran and authentic hadiths that reflects on what I just said.

To put it in simple words, when understanding that Imam Ali(as) can hear us based on those sources, asking him for help is no different than asking a live person on earth for help because at the end of the day, only Allah(swt) will answer your requests. Moreover, if asking help to Imam Ali(as) and at the same time Allah(swt) is not pleased with you then Allah(swt) will not answer your calls even when asking through Imam Ali(as) as he will not make a difference because every decision is rooted back to Allah(swt) alone and no one else can affect his decision , not Imam Ali(a) or the Ahlulbayt(as) combined.

Hopefully that made sense. I think I also made a thread on here once providing sources this time but I cannot remember where to find it.

These might also help.

http://www.al-islam.org/mot/tawassul.htm

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter6b/5.html

Let me know if you have more questions

(wasalam)

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حدثنا محمد بن الحسن بن أحمد بن الوليد رضي اللهعنه قال حدثنا محمد بن الحسن الصفار و سعد بن عبدالله جميعا عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى عن الحسن بن علي بن يقطين عن أخيه الحسين عنأبيه علي بن يقطين قال استدعى الرشيد رجلا يبطل به أمر أبي الحسن موسى بن جعفر ( ع ) ويقطعه و يخجله في المسجد فانتدب له رجل معزم فلما أحضرت المائدة عمل ناموسا علىالخبز فكان كلما رام أبو الحسن ( ع ) تناول رغيف من الخبز طار من بين يديه و استفز منهارون الفرح و الضحك لذلك فلم يلبث أبو الحسن ( ع ) أن رفع رأسه إلى أسد مصور على بعضالستور فقال له يا أسد خذ عدو الله قال فوثبت تلك الصورة كأعظم ما يكون من السباعفافترست ذلك المعزم فخر هارون و ندماؤه على وجوههم مغشيا عليهم فطارت عقولهم خوفامن هول ما رأوه فلما أفاقوا من ذلك قال هارون لأبي الحسن ( ع ) سألتك بحقي عليك لماسألت الصورة أن ترد الرجل فقال إن كانت عصا موسى ردت ما ابتلعته من حبال القوم وعصيهم فأن هذه الصورة ترد ما ابتلعته من هذا الرجل فكان ذلك أعمل الأشياء في إفاتةنفسه

Muhammad ibn Al-Hassan ibn Ahmad ibn al-Waleed – may God be pleased with him – narrated that Muhammad ibn Al-Hassan al-Saffar and Sa’d ibn Abdullah quoted on the authority of Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Isa, on the authority of Al-Hassan ibn Ali ibn Yaqteen, on the authority of his brother Al-Hussein, on the authority of his father Ali ibn Yaqteen,

“Harun Ar-Rashid was looking for someone who could make fun of Abil Hassan Musa ibn Ja’far (as), belittle him and defeat him in arguments in a meeting. A magician volunteered to do so. When they spread the table to eat, the magician put a spell on the bread so that whenever Abul Hassan (as) wanted to grab a piece of bread to eat, it would fly away from his hands. Harun was very pleased and laughed a lot at this.

Then Abul Hassan (as) turned to the picture of a lion which was on a portrait and said, “O Lion! Seize this enemy of God!” The narrator of the tradition added, “Then the picture of the lion turned into a big lion, jumped on the magician, and tore him up.”

Then Harun and all his companions who were present were watching got scared, fainted and fell down. When they regained consciousness, Harun told Abil Hassan (as), “I beg you by the right I have over you to ask the picture to return that man.” Then the Imam (as) said, “If the Cane of Moses (as) returned the canes and the ropes which it swallowed, this picture will also return that man.”

The narrator of this tradition added, “This was one of the most important reason why Imam (as) was martyred.”

[source: Uyoon akhbar ur raza, Vol 1, Chapter 8, Pg.95,96]

The matn of this hadith is quite a bit troubling to me. If the Aimmah (as) had always had this kind of enormous power, why wouldn't they seized power from the oppressors? It would be a piece of cake from them, it's their rights anyway, and it would have been very beneficial for their followers (and us).

Anyway, what I've seen so far is that our ahadith seems to be separated into each camp: one set stressed their "humanity", and one set stressed their "super power". Change the quoted part of the latter to "divinity", then it resembles duality of the position of Jesus in Christianity, which is quite troubling.

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The matn of this hadith is quite a bit troubling to me. If the Aimmah (as) had always had this kind of enormous power, why wouldn't they seized power from the oppressors? It would be a piece of cake from them, it's their rights anyway, and it would have been very beneficial for their followers (and us).

They still always had power of Dua. They could seize the power if they wished so, but they only did what was feasible as per circumstances. Allah has power still satan is free to deceive others. Every Nabi, (as) could destroy their enemies, like Noah, (as) did by cursing, but they had to suffer for Allah's sake, and tolerate oppressors till specific time. Why did Nabi,(saww) prohibit Ali, (as) from raising the sword then? If it was so beneficial to seize power for their cause? At least no one can deny, they had power to ask for destruction of their enemies, so what's wrong with this Hadeeth's matn, its perfectly ok.

Prophet Musa, (as) always had power to turn rod into snake, still He never made him bite firoun(la).

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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I've always found this verse to be a huge proof for calling upon the A'imma (as).

وَلَا يَمْلِكُ الَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِهِ الشَّفَاعَةَ إِلَّا مَن شَهِدَ بِالْحَقِّ وَهُمْ يَعْلَمُونَ

And those whom they call upon besides Him posses no (authority for) intercession, except he who bears witness of the truth and they know

So this verse indicates that calling upon him (those) that testify to the truth is allowed, as they have the power for intercession. So it nullifies the stance "you can only call upon Allah, anything else is Shirk".

Any other explanation of this verse is much welcome, because I can't think of anything else. [surah az-Zukhruf (43), verse 86]

Long time no see. How's life?

Edited by Abu Lulu

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I've always found this verse to be a huge proof for calling upon the A'imma (as).

وَلَا يَمْلِكُ الَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِهِ الشَّفَاعَةَ إِلَّا مَن شَهِدَ بِالْحَقِّ وَهُمْ يَعْلَمُونَ

And those whom they call upon besides Him posses no (authority for) intercession, except he who bears witness of the truth and they know

So this verse indicates that calling upon him (those) that testify to the truth is allowed, as they have the power for intercession. So it nullifies the stance "you can only call upon Allah, anything else is Shirk".

Any other explanation of this verse is much welcome, because I can't think of anything else. [surah az-Zukhruf (43), verse 86]

Long time no see. How's life?

It seems you're confusing shafa'a and du'a. Shafa'a is asking someone to ask God to forgive you in the Day of Judgment, not asking for Imam Ali to cure you.

Edited by Robin Hood

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Why you need someone on doomsday? How shirk of this world turns out to be Touheed there?

Because the Qur'an says you can. But the Qur'an says to only make du'a for God.

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Aslamalaykum

@Rotton Coconut

The matn of this hadith is quite a bit troubling to me. If the Aimmah (as) had always had this kind of enormous power, why wouldn't they seized power from the oppressors? It would be a piece of cake from them, it's their rights anyway, and it would have been very beneficial for their followers (and us).

In everything is a test, wisdom and deep insight which we try to grasp.

The same argument can be used by the atheists isn't Allah swt the All Powerful then why is there corruption, injustice, natural disasters etc

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Seeking Shafaat is also one form of Dua since its calling for help.

Du'a is asking for supernatural help.

And as I said, the Qur'an allows Shafa'a but forbids doing du'a to other than God.

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Du'a is asking for supernatural help.

And as I said, the Qur'an allows Shafa'a but forbids doing du'a to other than God.

Where it is stated Dua means only some supernatural happening, not any natural one. When calling to anyone is forbidden, then who categorized supernatural, or natural? I guess its futile to make you understand something.

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I've always found this verse to be a huge proof for calling upon the A'imma (as).

وَلَا يَمْلِكُ الَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِهِ الشَّفَاعَةَ إِلَّا مَن شَهِدَ بِالْحَقِّ وَهُمْ يَعْلَمُونَ

And those whom they call upon besides Him posses no (authority for) intercession, except he who bears witness of the truth and they know

So this verse indicates that calling upon him (those) that testify to the truth is allowed, as they have the power for intercession. So it nullifies the stance "you can only call upon Allah, anything else is Shirk".

Any other explanation of this verse is much welcome, because I can't think of anything else. [surah az-Zukhruf (43), verse 86]

Where is your translation from? Here is a much more reputed, academic translation of this verse:

"Those gods they invoke besides Him have no power of intercession, unlike those who bore witness to the truth and recognized it (or alternately within the same translation: 'those who have God's permission')." (Quran, 43:86)

This verse in no way advocates for calling upon someone other than Allah even if that person's intercession is guaranteed to be accepted by Allah. Rather, this verse is giving you a general theme that Allah chooses whose intercession is accepted; you cannot just pick any person to intercede with Him. There other verses in the Quran that say not to call upon anyone but Allah. These can be reconciled with the one above to mean that this is the formula for intercession in du`a:

Ya Rabb biHaqq Muhammad (as) wa Aal Muhammad (as) to the end of the du`a

or

Ya Rabb biShafa`at Muhammad (as) wa Aal Muhammad (as) to the end of the du`a

What you can't do as per these verses and most clearly from the verse you posted is the following:

Ya Rabb biHaqq Abu Bakr to the end of the du`a

This is because Abu Bakr has no status in front of Allah.

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Where is your translation from? Here is a much more reputed, academic translation of this verse:

"Those gods they invoke besides Him have no power of intercession, unlike those who bore witness to the truth and recognized it (or alternately within the same translation: 'those who have God's permission')." (Quran, 43:86)

This verse in no way advocates for calling upon someone other than Allah even if that person's intercession is guaranteed to be accepted by Allah. Rather, this verse is giving you a general theme that Allah chooses whose intercession is accepted; you cannot just pick any person to intercede with Him. There other verses in the Quran that say not to call upon anyone but Allah. These can be reconciled with the one above to mean that this is the formula for intercession in du`a:

Ya Rabb biHaqq Muhammad (as) wa Aal Muhammad (as) to the end of the du`a

or

Ya Rabb biShafa`at Muhammad (as) wa Aal Muhammad (as) to the end of the du`a

What you can't do as per these verses and most clearly from the verse you posted is the following:

Ya Rabb biHaqq Abu Bakr to the end of the du`a

This is because Abu Bakr has no status in front of Allah.

Thanks, I've seen it from a different angle now. Still a tafsir would come in handy.

There other verses in the Quran that say not to call upon anyone but Allah.

That depends on the context of those verses. Post some.

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Here you go:

Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek. [1:5]

And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then surely I am very near; I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he calls on Me, so they should answer My call and believe in Me that they may walk in the right way. [2:186]

And there are some among men who take for themselves objects of worship besides Allah, whom they love as they love Allah, and those who believe are stronger in love for Allah and O, that those who are unjust had seen, when they see the chastisement, that the power is wholly Allah's and that Allah is severe in requiting (evil). When those who were followed shall renounce those who followed (them), and they see the chastisement and their ties are cut asunder. And those who followed shall say: Had there been for us a return, then we would renounce them as they have renounced us. Thus will Allah show them their deeds to be intense regret to them, and they shall not come forth from the fire. [2:165-167]

Two men of those who feared, upon both of whom Allah had bestowed a favor, said: Enter upon them by the gate, for when you have entered it you shall surely be victorious, and on Allah should you rely if you are believers. [5:23]

And if Allah touch you with affliction, there is none to take it off but He; and if He visit you with good, then He has power over all things. [6:17]

Say: Tell me if the chastisement of Allah should overtake you or the hour should come upon you, will you call (on others) besides Allah, if you are truthful? Nay, Him you call upon, so He clears away that for which you pray if He pleases and you forget what you set up (with Him). [6:40-41]

Say: Who is it that delivers you from the dangers of the land and the sea (when) you call upon Him (openly) humiliating yourselves, and in secret: If He delivers us from this, we should certainly be of the grateful ones. Say: Allah delivers you from them and from every distress, but again you set up others (with Him). [6:63-64]

And when they commit an indecency they say: We found our fathers doing this, and Allah has enjoined it on us. Say: Surely Allah does not enjoin indecency; do you say against Allah what you do not know? Say: My Lord has enjoined justice, and set upright your faces at every time of prayer and call on Him, being sincere to Him in obedience; as He brought you forth in the beginning, so shall you also return. [7:28:29]

Surely those who are with your Lord are not too proud to serve Him, and they declare His glory and prostrate in humility before Him. [7:206]

Those only are believers whose hearts become full of fear when Allah is mentioned, and when His communications are recited to them they increase them in faith, and in their Lord do they trust. [8:2]

O Prophet! Allah is sufficient for you and (for) such of the believers as follow you. [8:64]

And when affliction touches a man, he calls on Us, whether lying on his side or sitting or standing; but when We remove his affliction from him, he passes on as though he had never called on Us on account of an affliction that touched him; thus that which they do is made fair-seeming to the extravagant. [10:12]

He it is Who makes you travel by land and sea; until when you are in the ships, and they sail on with them in a pleasant breeze, and they rejoice, a violent wind overtakes them and the billows surge in on them from all sides, and they become certain that they are encompassed about, they pray to Allah, being sincere to Him in obedience: If Thou dost deliver us from this, we will most certainly be of the grateful ones. Yet when He hath delivered them, behold! they rebel in the earth wrongfully. O mankind! Your rebellion is only against yourselves. (Ye have) enjoyment of the life of the world; then unto Us is your return and We shall proclaim unto you what ye used to do. [10:22-23]

Surely those whom you call on besides Allah are in a state of subjugation like yourselves; therefore call on them, then let them answer you if you are truthful. And do not call besides Allah on that which can neither benefit you nor harm you, for if you do then surely you will in that case be of the unjust. And if Allah should afflict you with harm, then there is none to remove it but He; and if He intends good to you there is none to repel His grace; He brings it to whom He pleases of His servants; and He is the Forgiving, the Merciful. [10:106-107]

To Him is due the true prayer; and those whom they pray to besides Allah give them no answer, but (they are) like one who stretches forth his two hands towards water that it may reach his mouth, but it will not reach it; and the prayer of the unbelievers is only in error. [13:14]

Say: Who is the Lord of the heavens and the earth? Say: Allah. Say: Do you take then besides Him guardians who do not control any profit or harm for themselves? Say: Are the blind and the seeing alike? Or can the darkness and the light be equal? Or have they set up with Allah associates who have created creation like His, so that what is created became confused to them? Say: Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is the One, the Supreme. [Qur'an 13:16]

He said: And who despairs of the mercy of his Lord but the erring ones? [15:56]

And those whom they call on besides Allah have not created anything while they are themselves created; [16:20]

Say: Call on those whom you assert besides Him, so they shall not control the removal of distress from you nor (its) transference. Those whom they call upon, themselves seek the means of access to their Lord-- whoever of them is nearest-- and they hope for His mercy and fear His chastisement; surely the chastisement of your Lord is a thing to be cautious of. [17:56-57]

Say: Call upon Allah or call upon, the Beneficent Allah; whichever you call upon, He has the best names; and do not utter your prayer with a very raised voice nor be silent with regard to it, and seek a way between these. [17:110]

And We will bring forth hell, exposed to view, on that day before the unbelievers. They whose eyes were under a cover from My reminder and they could not even hear. What! do then those who disbelieve think that they can take My servants to be guardians besides Me? Surely We have prepared hell for the entertainment of the unbelievers. [18:100-103]

And they have taken besides Him gods, who do not create anything while they are themselves created, and they control not for themselves any harm or profit, and they control not death nor life, nor raising (the dead) to life. [25:3]

Say: Praise be to Allah and peace on His servants whom He has chosen: is Allah better, or what they associate (with Him)?

Is not He (best) Who created the heavens and the earth, and sendeth down for you water from the sky wherewith We cause to spring forth joyous orchards, whose trees it never hath been yours to cause to grow. Is there any Allah beside Allah? Nay, but they are folk who ascribe equals (unto Him)!

Or, Who made the earth a resting place, and made in it rivers, and raised on it mountains and placed between the two seas a barrier. Is there a god with Allah? Nay! most of them do not know!

Or, Who answers the distressed one when he calls upon Him and removes the evil, and He will make you successors in the earth. Is there a god with Allah? Little is it that you mind!

Or, Who guides you in utter darkness of the land and the sea, and Who sends the winds as good news before His mercy. Is there a god with Allah? Exalted by Allah above what they associate (with Him).

Or, Who originates the creation, then reproduces it and Who gives you sustenance from the heaven and the earth. Is there a god With Allah? Say: Bring your proof if you are truthful. [27:59-64]

You only worship idols besides Allah and you create a lie surely they whom you serve besides Allah do not control for you any sustenance, therefore seek the sustenance from Allah and serve Him and be grateful to Him; to Him you shall be brought back. [29:17]

Allah is He Who created you, then gave you sustenance, then He causes you to die, then brings you to life. Is there any of your associate-gods who does aught of it? Glory be to Him, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him). [30:40]

Say: Call upon those whom you assert besides Allah; they do not control the weight of an atom in the heavens or in the earth nor have they any partnership in either, nor has He among them any one to back (Him) up. And intercession will not avail aught with Him save of him whom He permits. Until when fear shall be removed from their hearts, They shall say: What is it that your Lord said? They shall say: The truth. And He is the Most High, the Great. [34:22-23]

He causes the night to enter in upon the day, and He causes the day to enter in upon the night, and He has made subservient (to you) the sun and the moon; each one follows its course to an appointed time; this is Allah, your Lord, His is the kingdom; and those whom you call upon besides Him do not control a straw. If you call on them they shall not hear your call, and even if they could hear they shall not answer you; and on the resurrection day they will deny your associating them (with Allah); and none can inform you like the One Who is Aware. [35:13-14]

And should you ask them, Who created the heavens and the earth? They would most certainly say: Allah. Say: Have you then considered that what you call upon besides Allah, would they, if Allah desire to afflict me with harm, be the removers of His harm, or (would they), if Allah desire to show me mercy, be the withholders of His mercy? Say: Allah is sufficient for me; on Him do the reliant rely. [39:38]

That is because when Allah alone was called upon, you disbelieved, and when associates were given to Him, you believed; so judgment belongs to Allah, the High, the Great. He it is Who shows you His signs and sends down for you sustenance from heaven, and none minds but he who turns (to Him) again and again. Therefore call upon Allah, being sincere to Him in obedience, though the unbelievers are averse [40:12-14]

And your Lord says: Call upon Me, I will answer you; surely those who are too proud for My service shall soon enter hell abased. [40:60]

And who is in greater error than he who calls besides Allah upon those that will not answer him till the day of resurrection and they are heedless of their call? And when men are gathered together they shall be their enemies, and shall be deniers of their worshipping (them). [47:5-6]

And certainly We created man, and We know what his mind suggests to him, and We are nearer to him than his life-vein. [50:16]

Allah, there is no god but He; and upon Allah, then, let the believers rely. [64:13]

And give him sustenance from whence he thinks not; and whoever trusts in Allah, He is sufficient for him; surely Allah attains His purpose; Allah indeed has appointed a measure for everything. [65:3]

And that the mosques are Allah's, therefore call not upon any one with Allah:

And that when the servant of Allah stood up calling upon Him, they wellnigh crowded him (to death).

Say: I only call upon my Lord, and I do not associate any one with Him.

Say: I do not control for you evil or good.

Say: Surely no one can protect me against Allah, nor can I find besides Him any place of refuge:

(It is) only a delivering (of communications) from Allah and His messages; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger surely he shall have the fire of hell to abide therein for a long time. [72:18-23]

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It would suit you better to actually read the prior posts that I made. I do tawassul _everyday_ in _every_ du`a.

I wasnt attacking you brother, I was just providing references for everyone.

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They still always had power of Dua. They could seize the power if they wished so, but they only did what was feasible as per circumstances. Allah has power still satan is free to deceive others. Every Nabi, (as) could destroy their enemies, like Noah, (as) did by cursing, but they had to suffer for Allah's sake, and tolerate oppressors till specific time. Why did Nabi,(saww) prohibit Ali, (as) from raising the sword then? If it was so beneficial to seize power for their cause? At least no one can deny, they had power to ask for destruction of their enemies, so what's wrong with this Hadeeth's matn, its perfectly ok.

Prophet Musa, (as) always had power to turn rod into snake, still He never made him bite firoun(la).

Aslamalaykum

@Rotton Coconut

In everything is a test, wisdom and deep insight which we try to grasp.

The same argument can be used by the atheists isn't Allah swt the All Powerful then why is there corruption, injustice, natural disasters etc

- If you read this hadith at its face value, the first impression you have is the Aimmah (as) had this power which that can be used at will.

The next logical consequence is asking what I've asked before which unfortunately I haven't encountered any hadith which explains this (any hadith on this is welcomed).

- Another way to see this issue is while public display of such miracle/power was not certainly convert everyone in the case of the Prophets, at least they tried to change people's opinion by this while this was not the case with the Aimmah (as). One could ask why they had not tried at all while they had the same or even more supra-natural power than what the Prophets had.

- Analogy of this to the condition of the world is not correct since the latter is actually the reason why the world is created (i.e. as test, not the final frontier) while the former begs the question of why our supposed leaders (the Aimmah) didn't do what they had to do when they could do it (which is a serious accusation).

- Another thing to consider is about the magician put spell on the bread when if this was taken literally, contradicted the views of the `ulama that magic is only trickery (http://realtashayyu.blogspot.com/2013/01/how-to-cure-black-magic.html)

- If we take this further, if they had this power, why Imam Musa (as) didn't use this immediately after the death of Imam Ja'far (as) to show that he was the next Imam, instead of letting the followers wandered thinking that probably Ismail or `Abdullah was the next Imam? Why didn't Imam `Ali ar-Rida (as) use this to prove the fallacy of the Waqifi? Or the next Aimmah, when there was challenges put forward to doubt their imamah?

This is me playing the devil advocate, asking what an objective observer could ask a Shi`i when they read such ahadith. We better have answers on this, both from dalil naqli & aqli, not only to answer him, but also to strengthen our own heart. Unfortunately, as mentioned above, I haven't encountered ahadith explaining this (the non-using of the power when they could), but if someone could show them, it'll be very welcomed. This is also the case of the dalil aqli, it's problematic to the points that I've highlighted above.

The point is, when we believe this kind of hadith is authentic, we better have a strong ground to encounter any attacks on it, which unfortunately I find lacking.

Let me stress this again: this is not saying that I reject this hadith. I'm saying that the matn is problematic for me because it has difficulties that it needs to explain as mentioned above, but no adequate explanation is available. When we have the necessary explanation, it will be no longer problematic.

Anyway, another explanation is needed to explain the two sets of ahadith that we have ("humanity" vs "super powers") that I mentioned above. I'm sure that our `ulama are aware of this. Does someone know on the explanations on this given by our `ulama?

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The narrator of this tradition added, “This was one of the most important reason why Imam (as) was martyred.”

The tradition doesn't say "The narrator of this tradition added", it simply continues as though `Ali b. Yaqtin is talking about what happened. There's a problem here though. `Ali b. Yaqtin died before the Imam.

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الْكَافِي بِإسْنَادِهِ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ سِنَانٍ قَالَ: كُنْتُ عِنْدَ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ الثَّانِي عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ فَأَجْرَيْتُ اخْتِلافَ الشِّيعَةِ. فَقَالَ: يَا مُحَمَّدُ، إنَّ اللهَ تَبَارَكَ وَتَعَالَى لَمْ يَزَلْ مُتَفَرِّداً بِوَحْدَانِيَّتِهِ، ثُمَّ خَلَقَ مُحَمَّداً وَعَلِيّاً وَفَاطِمَةَ، فَمَكَثُوا أَلْفَ دَهْرٍ، ثُمَّ خَلَقَ جَمِيعَ الأَشْيَاءِ فَأَشْهَدَهُمْ خَلْقَهَا وَأَجْرَى طَاعَتَهُمْ عَلَيْهَا وَفَوَّضَ أُمُورَهَا إلَيْهِمْ. فَهُمْ يُحِلُّونَ مَا يَشَاؤُونَ وَيْحَرِّمُونَ مَا يَشَاؤُونَ. وَلَنْ يَشَاؤُوا إلاّ أَنْ يَشَاءَ اللهُ تَبَارَكَ وَتَعَالَى. ثُمَّ قَالَ: يَا مُحَمَّدُ، هَذِهِ الدِّيَانَةُ الَّتِي مَنْ تَقَدَّمَهَا مَرَقَ وَمَنْ تَخَلَّفَ عَنْهَا مُحِقَ وَمَنْ لَزِمَهَا لحَقَ. خُذْهَا إلَيْكَ يَا مُحَمَّدُ.

In al-Kafi [al-Kulayni reports] with his isnad from Muhammad ibn Sinan that he said: I was with Abu Ja’far, the Second (A) when I mentioned before him the disagreement amongst the Shi’ah. Thereat he said, “O Muhammad, verily God, the Blessed and the Exalted, is ever unique in His Unity. Then He created Muhammad, ‘Ali and Fatima. They remained for a thousand eons, then, He created all the things and made them witness their creation and decreed them to obey them, delegating their affairs (i.e. of the creatures) to them. Hence they permit whatever they will and forbid whatever they will and they will not anything except what God, the Exalted, wills.’ Then he said, ‘O Muhammad, whoever goes beyond this creed transgresses the bounds of right doctrine and whoever lags behind perishes, and whoever adheres to it attains to the truth. So hold on to it, O Muhammad!”[489]

الكَافِِي بِإسْنَادِهِ عَنْ أبِي جَعْفَرٍ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ قَالَ: ذَرْوَةُ الأمْرِ وَسَنَامُهُ وَمِفْتَاحُهُ وَبَابُ الأَشْيَاءِ وَرِضَا الرَّحْمَنِ الطَّاعَةُ لْلإمَامِ بَعْدَ مَعْرِفَتِهِ… أَمَا لَوْ أَنَّ رَجُلاً قَامَ لَيْلَهُ وَصَامَ نَهَارَهُ وَتَصَدَّقَ بِجَمِيعِ مَالِهِ وَحَجَّ جَمِيعَ دَهْرِهِ وَلَمْ يَعْرِفْ وِلايَةَ وَلِيِّ اللهِ فَيُوَالِيَهُ وَيَكُونَ جَمِيعَ أَعْمَالِهِ بِدَلالَتِهِ إلَيْهِ، مَا كَانَ لَهُ عَلَى اللهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ حَقٌّ فِي ثَوَابِهِ وَلا كَانَ مِنْ أَهْلِ الإيمَانِ.

Al-Kulayni in al-Kafi reports with his isnad from Abu Ja’far (A) that he said: The crux of the matter, and its key, the door of things and the pleasure of the Beneficent—all lie in obedience to the Imam after having known him… Be aware that the man who spends his nights in prayer and his days in fasting and gives as all his property as charity (sadaqah) and performs hajj throughout his life without knowing the wilayah of the Wali of God and without following him, and without conducting himself, in all his actions, according to his guidance—such a person has no right to any reward from God and is not one of the faithful.[541]

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الْكَافِي بِإسْنَادِهِ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ سِنَانٍ قَالَ: كُنْتُ عِنْدَ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ الثَّانِي عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ فَأَجْرَيْتُ اخْتِلافَ الشِّيعَةِ. فَقَالَ: يَا مُحَمَّدُ، إنَّ اللهَ تَبَارَكَ وَتَعَالَى لَمْ يَزَلْ مُتَفَرِّداً بِوَحْدَانِيَّتِهِ، ثُمَّ خَلَقَ مُحَمَّداً وَعَلِيّاً وَفَاطِمَةَ، فَمَكَثُوا أَلْفَ دَهْرٍ، ثُمَّ خَلَقَ جَمِيعَ الأَشْيَاءِ فَأَشْهَدَهُمْ خَلْقَهَا وَأَجْرَى طَاعَتَهُمْ عَلَيْهَا وَفَوَّضَ أُمُورَهَا إلَيْهِمْ. فَهُمْ يُحِلُّونَ مَا يَشَاؤُونَ وَيْحَرِّمُونَ مَا يَشَاؤُونَ. وَلَنْ يَشَاؤُوا إلاّ أَنْ يَشَاءَ اللهُ تَبَارَكَ وَتَعَالَى. ثُمَّ قَالَ: يَا مُحَمَّدُ، هَذِهِ الدِّيَانَةُ الَّتِي مَنْ تَقَدَّمَهَا مَرَقَ وَمَنْ تَخَلَّفَ عَنْهَا مُحِقَ وَمَنْ لَزِمَهَا لحَقَ. خُذْهَا إلَيْكَ يَا مُحَمَّدُ.

In al-Kafi [al-Kulayni reports] with his isnad from Muhammad ibn Sinan that he said: I was with Abu Ja’far, the Second (A) when I mentioned before him the disagreement amongst the Shi’ah. Thereat he said, “O Muhammad, verily God, the Blessed and the Exalted, is ever unique in His Unity. Then He created Muhammad, ‘Ali and Fatima. They remained for a thousand eons, then, He created all the things and made them witness their creation and decreed them to obey them, delegating their affairs (i.e. of the creatures) to them. Hence they permit whatever they will and forbid whatever they will and they will not anything except what God, the Exalted, wills.’ Then he said, ‘O Muhammad, whoever goes beyond this creed transgresses the bounds of right doctrine and whoever lags behind perishes, and whoever adheres to it attains to the truth. So hold on to it, O Muhammad!”[489]

الكَافِِي بِإسْنَادِهِ عَنْ أبِي جَعْفَرٍ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ قَالَ: ذَرْوَةُ الأمْرِ وَسَنَامُهُ وَمِفْتَاحُهُ وَبَابُ الأَشْيَاءِ وَرِضَا الرَّحْمَنِ الطَّاعَةُ لْلإمَامِ بَعْدَ مَعْرِفَتِهِ… أَمَا لَوْ أَنَّ رَجُلاً قَامَ لَيْلَهُ وَصَامَ نَهَارَهُ وَتَصَدَّقَ بِجَمِيعِ مَالِهِ وَحَجَّ جَمِيعَ دَهْرِهِ وَلَمْ يَعْرِفْ وِلايَةَ وَلِيِّ اللهِ فَيُوَالِيَهُ وَيَكُونَ جَمِيعَ أَعْمَالِهِ بِدَلالَتِهِ إلَيْهِ، مَا كَانَ لَهُ عَلَى اللهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ حَقٌّ فِي ثَوَابِهِ وَلا كَانَ مِنْ أَهْلِ الإيمَانِ.

Al-Kulayni in al-Kafi reports with his isnad from Abu Ja’far (A) that he said: The crux of the matter, and its key, the door of things and the pleasure of the Beneficent—all lie in obedience to the Imam after having known him… Be aware that the man who spends his nights in prayer and his days in fasting and gives as all his property as charity (sadaqah) and performs hajj throughout his life without knowing the wilayah of the Wali of God and without following him, and without conducting himself, in all his actions, according to his guidance—such a person has no right to any reward from God and is not one of the faithful.[541]

What's your point in posting these? The Wilayah is an essential aspect of Islam, is that it?

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The tradition doesn't say "The narrator of this tradition added", it simply continues as though `Ali b. Yaqtin is talking about what happened. There's a problem here though. `Ali b. Yaqtin died before the Imam.

It could be anyone of those in the chain , maybe Ali ibn yaqteen's sons

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Aslamalaykum,

@Muhibb-Ali

JazaakAllah brother, amazing narrations, especially the latter one as it has answers to many questions raised.

"What an strange case is the case with a group of followers! They acknowledge us as the Divine authority over themselves, accept us as their Imam and say that obedience to us is obligatory just as is the case with the Messenger of Allah. They then destroy the veracity of their belief as such and dispute against their own selves due to weakness of their hearts. They then diminish our right and blame those whom Allah has granted evidence to know us as it should be and the (ability) to submit themselves to our Divine authority.

SubhaanAllah! How true. May Allah swt guide us all to be the true followers of the Ahlul Bayt a.s

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(bismillah)

Salam

Inshalllah you are doing well.

Matn is very simple and clear.

And the Imam's (as) did not need any super power (actually Wilayah as per Quran and Hadees) to seize the power away from their oppressors, they could have just prayed to Allah (swt) and it would be done, because we have in narrations that the dua of the Imam (as) is always excepted....

So you would believe that the Imam's (as) prayers are also not accepted always? else why din't they pray to have their rights back from their oppressors?

we can't always go backwards saying that since the Imam's (as) rights were snatched and they were oppressed then it means that they din't have any power to over come their enemies.....

I would easily take the same reasoning and apply it upon Allah (swt).. Infact this is exactly what is happening today..

Its important that one studies narrations from the Imam's (as) before posing questions/objection over other traditions:

The following narrations is recorded by Sheikh Kulayni in Al-Kafi under the chapter:

"The Imams (as) know when they will die and they die voluntarily - أن الأئمة عليهم السلام يعلمون متى يموتون و أنهم لا يموتون إلا باختيار منهم‏"

عدة من أصحابنا، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن علي بن الحكم، عن سيف بن عميرة، عن عبدالملك بن أعين، عن أبي جعفر (عليه السلام) قال: أنزل الله تعالى النصر على الحسين (عليه السلام) حتى كان [ما] بين السماء والارض ثم خير: النصر، أو لقاء الله، فاختار لقاء الله تعالى

A number of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from Ali ibn al-Hakam from Sayf ibn ‘Umayra from ‘Abd al-Malik ibn A‘yan from abu Ja‘far (as) who has said the following. "Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, sent support for Imam al-Husayn (as) up to the fill between the heavens and earth. Then he was let to choose either victory or meeting Allah. He, however, choose the meeting of Allah the Most High."

[source: Al-Kafi, Vol.1 Pg. 260]

Note: As per Sanad analysis, this hadees is Hasan (Reliable), See Mirat Al Uqool - Allama Majlisi - Vol. 3 Pg. 128

http://www.marefatea...ll-for-shahadat

The very fact that the Imam's (a.s) having these authority did not utilize them shows that they were under complete submission to what was decreed by Allah (swt).

Another narrations which throws more light:

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنِ ابْنِ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنِ ابْنِ رِئَابٍ عَنْ ضُرَيْسٍ الْكُنَاسِيِّ قَالَ سَمِعْتُ أَبَا جَعْفَرٍ ع يَقُولُ وَ عِنْدَهُ أُنَاسٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِهِ عَجِبْتُ مِنْ قَوْمٍ يَتَوَلَّوْنَا وَ يَجْعَلُونَا أَئِمَّةً وَ يَصِفُونَ أَنَّ طَاعَتَنَا مُفْتَرَضَةٌ عَلَيْهِمْ كَطَاعَةِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص ثُمَّ يَكْسِرُونَ حُجَّتَهُمْ وَ يَخْصِمُونَ أَنْفُسَهُمْ بِضَعْفِ قُلُوبِهِمْ فَيَنْقُصُونَا حَقَّنَا وَ يَعِيبُونَ ذَلِكَ عَلَى مَنْ أَعْطَاهُ اللَّهُ بُرْهَانَ حَقِّ مَعْرِفَتِنَا وَ التَّسْلِيمَ لِأَمْرِنَا أَ تَرَوْنَ أَنَّ اللَّهَ تَبَارَكَ وَ تَعَالَى افْتَرَضَ طَاعَةَ أَوْلِيَائِهِ عَلَى عِبَادِهِ ثُمَّ يُخْفِي عَنْهُمْ أَخْبَارَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَ الْأَرْضِ وَ يَقْطَعُ عَنْهُمْ مَوَادَّ الْعِلْمِ فِيمَا يَرِدُ عَلَيْهِمْ مِمَّا فِيهِ قِوَامُ دِينِهِمْ فَقَالَ لَهُ حُمْرَانُ جُعِلْتُ فِدَاكَ أَ رَأَيْتَ مَا كَانَ مِنْ أَمْرِ قِيَامِ عَلِيِّ بْنِ أَبِي طَالِبٍ وَ الْحَسَنِ وَ الْحُسَيْنِ ع وَ خُرُوجِهِمْ وَ قِيَامِهِمْ بِدِينِ اللَّهِ عَزَّ ذِكْرُهُ وَ مَا أُصِيبُوا مِنْ قَتْلِ الطَّوَاغِيتِ إِيَّاهُمْ وَ الظَّفَرِ بِهِمْ حَتَّى قُتِلُوا وَ غُلِبُوا فَقَالَ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ ع يَا حُمْرَانُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ تَبَارَكَ وَ تَعَالَى قَدْ كَانَ قَدَّرَ ذَلِكَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَ قَضَاهُ وَ أَمْضَاهُ وَ حَتَمَهُ عَلَى سَبِيلِ الِاخْتِيَارِ ثُمَّ أَجْرَاهُ فَبِتَقَدُّمِ عِلْمٍ إِلَيْهِمْ مِنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص قَامَ عَلِيٌّ وَ الْحَسَنُ وَ الْحُسَيْنُ ع وَ بِعِلْمٍ صَمَتَ مَنْ صَمَتَ مِنَّا وَ لَوْ أَنَّهُمْ يَا حُمْرَانُ حَيْثُ نَزَلَ بِهِمْ مَا نَزَلَ مِنْ أَمْرِ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ وَ إِظْهَارِ الطَّوَاغِيتِ عَلَيْهِمْ سَأَلُوا اللَّهَ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ أَنْ يَدْفَعَ عَنْهُمْ ذَلِكَ وَ أَلَحُّوا عَلَيْهِ فِي طَلَبِ إِزَالَةِ مُلْكِ الطَّوَاغِيتِ وَ ذَهَابِ مُلْكِهِمْ إِذاً لَأَجَابَهُمْ وَ دَفَعَ ذَلِكَ عَنْهُمْ ثُمَّ كَانَ انْقِضَاءُ مُدَّةِ الطَّوَاغِيتِ وَ ذَهَابُ مُلْكِهِمْ أَسْرَعَ مِنْ سِلْكٍ مَنْظُومٍ انْقَطَعَ فَتَبَدَّدَ وَ مَا كَانَ ذَلِكَ الَّذِي أَصَابَهُمْ يَا حُمْرَانُ لِذَنْبٍ اقْتَرَفُوهُ وَ لَا لِعُقُوبَةِ مَعْصِيَةٍ خَالَفُوا اللَّهَ فِيهَا وَ لَكِنْ لِمَنَازِلَ وَ كَرَامَةٍ مِنَ اللَّهِ أَرَادَ أَنْ يَبْلُغُوهَا فَلَا تَذْهَبَنَّ بِكَ الْمَذَاهِبُ فِيهِم‏

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from ibn Mahbub from ibn Ri’ab from Durays al-Kunasi who has said that he heard abu Ja‘far (as) the following to an audience of his companions.

"What an strange case is the case with a group of followers! They acknowledge us as the Divine authority over themselves, accept us as their Imam and say that obedience to us is obligatory just as is the case with the Messenger of Allah. They then destroy the veracity of their belief as such and dispute against their own selves due to weakness of their hearts. They then diminish our right and blame those whom Allah has granted evidence to know us as it should be and the (ability) to submit themselves to our Divine authority.

Do you not consider that how would Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, make it obligatory to obey those who possess Divine authority over his servants and then hide from them (people who possess Divine authority) `the new of the heaves and the earth? How would He cut them off of the sources of knowledge that might come to them to maintain their religion?"

Humran then said to the Imam (as), "May Allah, take my soul in service for your cause, how would you explain the case of the uprising of Ali ibn abu Talib, al-Hassan and al-Husayn (as)? They came out and rose up for the cause of Allah, Whose name is so Majestic. How much they suffered and how mercilessly were they murdered at the hands of the rebels? They were defeated, murdered and over powered."

Abu Ja‘far (as) then said, "O Humran, Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, had determined it on them. He had decreed, approved and made it unavoidable though the voluntary manner. He then allowed to take place. It, thus, happened with a pre-existing knowledge that had come to them from the Messenger of Allah. Ali, al-Hassan and al-Husayn (as) rose up for the cause of Allah with full knowledge of the consequences and remained silent from us those who remained silent.

Had they, O Humran, when facing what Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, made them to face and suffer defeat at the hands of the rebels (apparent), asked Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, to remove their suffering and would implore Him to destroy the government and kingdom of the rebels He would have answered their prayers and would grant them relief. In such case the destruction of the governments of the rebels and the ending of their time would take place quicker than the dispersal under a great pressure, of beads threaded together. The suffering, O Humran, that befell them, was not because of the sins that they might have committed or the punishment for their opposition to Allah. It was because of the high marvellous position that Allah had prepared and wanted them to reach. Do not let people’s opinions take you away from the right path."

[source: Al-kafi, Vol.1 Pg.262, Chapter: The Imams (as) do have the knowledge of what was and will be, and that nothing is unknown to Them (as)]

Note: Authentic Hadees as per the Sanad analysis. See Miraat-Al-Uqool - Allama Majlisi - Vol.3 Pg.131]

http://www.marefatea...ll-for-shahadat

Them having their prayers answered doesn't mean they have power. Their prayers are granted because God wants so, it's not that they have a power to make God accept their prayers, as if they had power over God (astaghfirullah).

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