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Ali-F

Imams Have Wilaya Takweenia And They Can Forget

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I'm not rijaali inclined, as I believe it's not a science, but according to whom is the sanad for this hadeeth "Authentic/Reliable" ? Are you referring to Majlisi's opinion, al-Khu'i, or your own?

(salam)

About this hadeeth Wahid Khorasani:"Saheeh" in his Muqaddimah fi usool al-din,Pg 407.

(wasalam)

Edited by aquibriz

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في ولايتهم عليهم السلام التكوينية

أمّا الجهة الأولى، فالظّاهر أنّه لا شُبهة في ولايتهم على المخلوق بأجمعهم، كما يظهر من الأخبار، لكونهم واسطة في الإيجاد، وبهم الوجود، وهم السّبب في الخلق، إذ لولاهم لما خُلق النّاس كلّهم، وإنّما خلقوا لأجلهم، وبهم وجودهم، وهم الواسطة في الإفاضة، بل لهم الولاية التكوينيّة لما دون الخالق فهذه الولاية نحو ولاية الله تعالى على الخلق”

“in regards to wilayat takwiniya of aimmah asws, to the first part, it is evident without doubt that they had wilayat over all creation, as is evident in narrations; as they are the mode for creation, and due to them is the presence; and they are the reason for creation; if they were not there, all the people would not have been created, rather they are created for them, and through them is their presence; they are the medium for elaboration, but for them is wilayat takwiniyya other than that of THE CREATOR ; therefore, that is towards wilayat for Allah over creation”

[misbah ul fiqh, syed khoi, vol 3, page 279-280]

grand maraja, syed shahroudi, when asked about wilayat-e-takwiniyya, replied

الجواب :القائل بالولاية التكوينية لايدّعي انّ الانبياء والائمة يتصرّفون في الكون بقدرتهم الذاتية وبالاستقلال ، واذا كان في القرآن مايدل على انهم لايملكون شيئاً فمعناه انهم بدون ارادة الله ومشيته وقدرته لايملكون شيئاً ، ولكن لا مانع من ان يتصرفوا في الكون بالقدرة التي اودعها الله تعالى فيهم لكن لا على نحو الاستقلال بل بارادة الله تعالى ، فالله تعالى مَنَحَهُم هذه القدرة فيقولون للشيء كن فيكون ، لكن بارادة الله ، ومع وجود هذه القدرة فيهم لا يتمكّنون من اعمالها الاّ بامر من الله تعالى وارادته ، ومن الذي قال ان الله تعالى لابُدَّ ان يباشِرَ بنفسه ادارة نظام الكون والحال انّه يقول (والمدّبرات امراً) (1)وقد جعل الله تعالى نظام العليّة والمعلولية وسيلةً لصدور كثير من الاشياء في الكون ، وقد قيل بهذا الصدّد (اَبى الله ان يُجري الامور إلاّ بأسبابها) ، والمتتبع للايات القرآنية والروايات والحوادث التاريخية يجد نماذج كثيرة من خوارق العادات والمعجزات صدرت على يد الانبياء والاوصياء وبقدرتهم وارادتهم بحيث يعجز عنها غيرهم وقد نسب القرآن احياء الموتى وابراء الاكمه والابرص الى نبيّه عيسى بن مريم (عليه السلام)حيث قال (واذ تبرأ الاكمه والابرص باذني واذ تحيي الموتى باذني) (2)وقول آصف بن برخيا (اَنا اتيك به قبل ان يرتَدَّ اليك طرفُك)(3)مع انّه كان له علم من الكتاب ، فكيف بمن عنده علم الكتاب كلِّه ونسبة الفعل الى الشخص ظاهرة في انه هو الفاعل حقيقة وانّه صدر الفعل منه بقدرته وقوّته ، نعم اَذِنَ الله تعالى له في ذلك بان اعطاه الله القدرة عليه ، فليس معناه انّه دعا الله تعالى فاَحيى الله الموتى استجابةً لدعائه فان هذا خلاف الظاهر جدّاً ، واَمّا ان بعض الانبياء والاوصياء لم يستعملوا هذه الولاية والقدرة في الحفاظ على حياتهم وحماية انفسهم فهذا جوابه واضح لانّهم لايَعملَون قدرتهم الاّ اذا اراد الله تعالى واَذِنَ لهم في ذلك فـ (انهم عبادٌ مكرمون لايسبقونه بالقول وهم بأمره يعملون) (4)(وما تشاؤن الاّ ان يشاء الله ربّ العالمين) (5) .

Answer:- those who believe in wilayat-e-takwiniyya do not claim that prophets or aimmah asws can control the universe on their own personality or power, and what is in quran is not a proof that they dont have anything rather it is in meaning of they do not have anything WITHOUT Allah’s will and desire; but there is no prohibition that they cannot control universe with power whic has been given to them by Allah, but not in their personal power, rather what Allah has willed; Allah has given them the power to say about something “be” and it is “done” but with will of Allah; and this power which they have, they do not act except by the order and will of Allah; and what is said that Allah runs the system of universe personally, the condition of that is (Then those who regulate the affair – naziat; 79/5); no doubt Allah has made a system of cause and effect in such away that many things are released/run in the universe; and this has been said in this regard (Allah runs things with their causes/reason) and this is followed by many verses of quran and narrations and incidents from history in huge numbers which show paranormal habits and the miracles made ​​by the prophets, guardians/oosai and their ability what others could not; and it is proven from quran that hazrat esa made alive those who died, and treated blinds and lepers, and this comes in quran in this way: (and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission- surat maidah 5/110) and saying of asif bin barkhiya ( I will bring it to you in the twinkling of an eye- surat naml, 27/40) and this comes with the fact that he had some knowledge from the book;; so what about the one who had knowledge of complete book and the attribution of the act is to the person apparently, and this means that he is the actually performer and the act appeared from him with the power and capability he had, i accept that it was with permission of Allah as the power had been given to him by Allah, but it does not mean that he was praying to Allah to bring dead to alive and Allah was accepting the prayers as this is against what is there apparently; and some of the prophets and oosia did not use this wilayat and power to protect their lives or defend themselves; and its answer is evident that they did not use this power except will of Allah and permission from him; and for them is the verse ( They do not precede Him in speech and (only) according to His commandment do they act.= surat ul anbiya, 21/27) and (And you do not please except that Allah please, the Lord of the worlds= surat takwir 81/29

mirza jawad tabreezi says

وأما الولاية التكوينية، فهي التصرف التكويني بالمخلوقات انسانا كان أو غيره، ويدل عليها آيات منها: قوله تعالى: (وأوحينا الى موسى أن الق عصاك، فإذا هي تلقف ما يأفكون، فوقع الحق وبطل ما كانوا يعملون، فغلبوا مناك وانقلبوا صاغرين) ومنها: قوله تعالى: (إذ قال الله يا عيسى ابن مريم اذكر نعمتي عليك وعلى والدتك، إذ ايدتك بروح القدس تكلم الناس في المهد وكهلا، واذ علمتك الكتاب والحكمة والتوراة والانجيل، واذ تخلق من الطين كهيئة الطير بإذني، فتنفخ فيها فتكون طيرا بإذني، وتبرئ الاكمه والابرص باذني، واذ تخرج الموتى بإذني… الخ)) حيث أسند الله الفعل الى الانبياء، وغير ذلك من الايات، وبما أنه لا نحتمل أن يكون ذلك ثابت للانبياء دون نبينا (ص) فحينئذ ثبت ذلك لنبينا محمد (ص)، وقد ثبت أن عليا (ع) نفس النبي (ص) بنص القران، ولا فرق بين الائمة (ع). اذن ما ثبت للانبياء ثبت للنبي (ص) وما ثبت له (ص) ثبت للائمة (ع) الا منصب النبوة

as regards to wilayat-e-takwini, it means control over creations, men or others; and the proof is saying of Allah (And We revealed to Musa, saying: Cast your rod; then lo! it devoured the lies they told; So the truth was established, and what they did became null. surat ul aaraf, verse 117-118] and saying of Allah (When Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you I with the holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle and I when of old age, and when I taught you the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel; and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; surat ul maidah, verse 110);; so Allah has assigned these to prophets or others and what is proven for prophets, it is proven for holy prophet asws; and proven for imam ali asws who is nafs of prophet as per quran and there is no difference between aimmah asws; so what is proven for prophets, it is proven for holy prophet asws; and what is proven for him is proven for aimmah EXCEPT PROPHETHOOD…………

he further says

فكيف يظن بشخص يلتزم بامامتهم، وانهم عدل للنبي (ص) الا في منصب النبوة، ولا يلتزم بالولاية التكوينية لهم

so how can one presume that if imamat is proven for a person and the justice of prophet except for status of prophethood; wilayat-e-takwini is not proven for him

[sirat un nijaat, mirza jawad tabreezi, vol 3, page 419]

I don't understand why people sound confused when their wilaya is wilaya of Allah azwj

(176) حدثنا محمد بن الحسين عن وهيب بن حفص عن أبي بصير قال:

قال أبو جعفر عليه السلام ولايتنا ولاية الله التي لم يبعث الله نبيا قط الا بها .

*موثقة

[al Sahih min Basair ud Darajat]

“Our Walayat is the Walayat of Allah without which no prophet was ever send.”

This narration is present with many chains, apart from the one mentioned above. Let me add those

(6) حدثنا يعقوب بن يزيد عن يحيى بن المبارك عن عبد الله بن جبلة عن حميد بن شعيب السبيعي عن جابر قال قال أبو جعفر عليه السلام ولايتنا ولاية الله التي لم يبعثنبيا قط الا بها.

(7) حدثنا محمد بن الحسين عن وهيب بن حفص عن أبي بصير قال قال أبو جعفر عليه السلام ولايتنا ولاية الله التي لم يبعث الله نبيا قط الا بها.

(8) حدثنا حمزة بن يعلى عن محمد بن الفضيل عن أبي حمزة الثمالي عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام أنه قال ولايتنا ولاية الله التي لم يبعث نبيا قط الا بها.

(9) حدثنا سلمة بن الخطاب عن علي بن سيف ابن عميرة عن العباس بن عامر عن أحمد بن رزق الغشاني عن محمد بن عبد الرحمن عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام أنه قال ولايتنا ولاية الله التي لم يبعث نبيا قط الا بها.

[basair ud Darajat, Sheikh Saffar, page 95]

It is also present in al Kafi with the following chain

3 – محمد بن يحيى، عن سلمة بن الخطاب، عن علي بن سيف، عن العباس بن عامر، عن أحمد بن رزق الغمشاني، عن محمد بن عبدالرحمن، عن أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام) قال:

ولايتنا ولاية الله التي لم يبعث نبيا قط إلا بها.

http://al-shia.org/html/ara/books/lib-hadis/al-kafi-1/14.htm

Sunnis shouldn't have problem with wilaya of ahlebayth a.s too.

we find in تفسير غرائب القرآن و رغائب الفرقان/القمي النيسابوري

in tafsir of surat zukhruf, where the incident of mairaj is dicussed;

that

وعن ابن مسعود ” أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قال: أتاني ملك فقال: يا محمد سل من أرسلنا من قبلك من رسلنا علام بعثوا؟ قال: قلت علام بعثوا؟ قال: على ولايتك وولاية علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه “

and ibn masood said that holy prophet said that

“an angel came to me, and asked me to ask the prophets who had been before me as to why were they sent(mab’ooth)? i said “why were you sent?”

they replied

“on your wilayat and wilayat of ali bin abi talib”

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=2&tTafsirNo=22&tSoraNo=43&tAyahNo=45&tDisplay=yes&Page=4&Size=1&LanguageId=1

Ya Ali madad

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I'm not arguing against Wailaayat al-Tatkwiniyya but, rather, I was inquiring as to the the source of the opinion re: the sihhat of the hadeeth that the brother quoted.

Edited by Abdul Qaim

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Perhaps both of you are right if supplication doesn't necessarily imply any formality (i.e. raising hands, and articulation of a request). The fact of the matter is that an Imam does not do anything independently since he doesn't have an independent existence. The Imam's will is God's will.

So it would be ok for me to say "inshali" instead of "inshallah"

because the will of the imam is Gods will?

I accept Imams do not disobey God, but God has infinite knowledge. Surely hill will resides on this infinite knowledge and awareness?

The imams seem to be demi-gods to me. They can be called upon to grant dua (with the belief God gives them power). They are omni present. Their will is Gods will, they have power over every atom?

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The imams seem to be demi-gods to me. They can be called upon to grant dua (with the belief God gives them power). They are omni present. Their will is Gods will, they have power over every atom?

You can believe in the presence of satan ,but not of Aimma, (as). You can call upon non muslims for help but not Aimma, (as), you can have faith in scientific control over things by the hands of kuffar but not of Imams, (as). These are the attributes with which you define God? then sorry ,your understanding is very limited brother. Allah's powers aren't confined to these things ,He is much powerful than that. Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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You can believe in the presence of satan ,but not of Aimma, (as). You can call upon non muslims for help but not Aimma, (as), you can have faith in scientific control over things by the hands of kuffar but not of Imams, (as). These are the attributes with which you define God? then sorry ,your understanding is very limited brother. Allah's powers aren't confined to these things ,He is much powerful than that.

Yeah, Imams are sitting there receiving all our du'as and answering them. On top of that, they control the Universe...

Maybe someone should remind you that the Imams (as) weren't even able to help themeselves. They are dead.

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Yeah, Imams are sitting there receiving all our du'as and answering them. On top of that, they control the Universe...

Maybe someone should remind you that the Imams (as) weren't even able to help themeselves. They are dead.

Them being dead was the will of Allah. What your implying is that their will should go against the will of Allah which is far from it! Just As Imam Mahdi has been alive this whole time, is the will of Allah as so was the other imams dying. Your argument is nonsensical.

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Yeah, Imams are sitting there receiving all our du'as and answering them. On top of that, they control the Universe...

Maybe someone should remind you that the Imams (as) weren't even able to help themeselves. They are dead.

Someone should remind you, they were never helpless but they were Sabireen, go get your Aqaid corrected. If world is getting strayed , you would agree with atheists then, there is no God(nauzbillah), who could help the believers, and correct the misguided ones by force. If the camel of Saleh,(as)'s curse could destroy the nation, then our Imams,(as) are definitely better. Couldn't their lifted hands were enough to destroy their enemies? but people with no maarifah can never understand. They were doing sabr not helpless.

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Someone should remind you, they were never helpless but they were Sabireen, go get your Aqaid corrected. If world is getting strayed , you would agree with atheists then, there is no God(nauzbillah), who could help the believers, and correct the misguided ones by force. If the camel of Saleh, (as)'s curse could destroy the nation, then our Imams, (as) are definitely better. Couldn't their lifted hands were enough to destroy their enemies? but people with no maarifah can never understand. They were doing sabr not helpless.

Imams have no power of their own. And does it make sense that they can control the Universe but still get injured and killed?

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Imams have no power of their own. And does it make sense that they can control the Universe but still get injured and killed?

No one has power on their own, separately from Allah. Tell me if camel of Saleh, (as);s words had power to destroy nation, and curses of other Prophets destroyed too, so how comes they become helpless?

As for your question, its similar to that of Atheists that how your God is controlling when there is so much crime, and sin? How does His loved ones get killed, and oppressors reign if He is controlling...rethink your perceptions.

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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Imams have no power of their own. And does it make sense that they can control the Universe but still get injured and killed?

I dont know about controling the universe, but you have to understand, getting injured killed is part of Allah's plan as the same as for example them controlling the world. Just cause the control the world with Allah's will doesnt mean they dont get hurt or killed unless once again its Allah's will. You have to understand, prophets were human too, but does that mean the couldnt have done miracles? Jesus A.S wasnt the only prophet who brought back the dead, yet those prophets died...Its All Allah's plan and will.

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No one has power on their own, separately from Allah. Tell me if camel of Saleh, (as);s words had power to destroy nation, and curses of other Prophets destroyed too, so how comes they become helpless?

As for your question, its similar to that of Atheists that how your God is controlling when there is so much crime, and sin? How does His loved ones get killed, and oppressors reign if He is controlling...rethink your perceptions.

It wasn't the Prophets who destroyed the nations, it was God. And since no one has any power independent of God, you can't do du'a to Imams, because they have no real power. And why would God give control of the Universe to them? That would be like Him making them parters to Him, or demi-gods.

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It wasn't the Prophets who destroyed the nations, it was God. And since no one has any power independent of God, you can't do du'a to Imams, because they have no real power. And why would God give control of the Universe to them? That would be like Him making them parters to Him, or demi-gods.

They do have power, and its the will of Allah. Who else to give your dua to Allah then the best beings on earth?

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It wasn't the Prophets who destroyed the nations, it was God. And since no one has any power independent of God, you can't do du'a to Imams, because they have no real power. And why would God give control of the Universe to them? That would be like Him making them parters to Him, or demi-gods.

What a reply? The point went above your head. The prayers of Prophets destroyed the nations, so why won't prayers of Aimma,(as) work? When we call upon them they pray for us, like prayers of Prophets were never rejected, likewise their's could never be.

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What a reply? The point went above your head. The prayers of Prophets destroyed the nations, so why won't prayers of Aimma, (as) work? When we call upon them they pray for us, like prayers of Prophets were never rejected, likewise their's could never be.

They could probably pray for you, but you can't do du'a to them and expect them to grant it for you. Your du'a goes to God. Imams can pray for you, but not answer du'as.

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They could probably pray for you, but you can't do du'a to them and expect them to grant it for you. Your du'a goes to God. Imams can pray for you, but not answer du'as.

We are saying we dua to Imams, Allah gives them the power to grant it, therefore Allah is the one who grants the dua and the listener. Also we dont say imams have their own power, its Allah who is the sustainer. I you say Imams have independent power then it becomes shirk.

Edited by pureethics

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They could probably pray for you, but you can't do du'a to them and expect them to grant it for you. Your du'a goes to God. Imams can pray for you, but not answer du'as.

Everything comes from God, and goes to Him, even if you call an ordinary person, and expect him to ''grant'' you favors, it would be from Allah alone. So is it a rocket science then?

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Everything comes from God, and goes to Him, even if you call an ordinary person, and expect him to ''grant'' you favors, it would be from Allah alone. So is it a rocket science then?

You can probably say: O God cure me bi haqqi Ali. But you can`t say: O Ali! Cure me! And why should you ask a creature rather than the Creator to grant you something? And God tells you to only pray to him.

Edited by Robin Hood

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You can probably say: O God cure me bi haqqi Ali. But you can`t say: O Ali! Cure me!

I say the both ways.

Next time when you visit the doctor, don't say, ''give me medicines'', instead of it say, oh God give me medicines through him, and doctor will automatically give you, otherwise its shirk.

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I say the both ways.

Next time when you visit the doctor, don't say, ''give me medicines'', instead of it say, oh God give me medicines through him, and doctor will automatically give you, otherwise its shirk.

Du'a is asking for supernatural help.

Also, the Qur'an says to only make du'a to God.

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Du'a is asking for supernatural help.

Also, the Qur'an says to only make du'a to God.

Quran uses the words ''calling upon'', so by default you can't call anyone else, whether natural, or supernatural. BTW when Jesus,(as) used to cure , it was supernatural as well.

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Quran uses the words ''calling upon'', so by default you can't call anyone else, whether natural, or supernatural. BTW when Jesus, (as) used to cure , it was supernatural as well.

So now the Qur'an is saying something false?

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So now the Qur'an is saying something false?

Those verses are not talking about us, its talking about those who literally call upon someone other than Allah. Do we worship imams? Do we say they have separate power?

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What's this god this god that business about? The Quran if you read allows intercession of the righteous.

Yes you can do dua to imams otherwise why would you read nad e Ali, was mola not ainullah, wajhullah, yadullah, nafsullah?

Allah in fact wants you to ask on their behalf because of their relationship with himself and the loyalty Masoom have showed him.

The proofs in the pudding, whenever I have asked mola for something he has never left me empty handed.

And no one try and twist my words as Allah is Allah and masoom are masoom - period.

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What's this god this god that business about? The Quran if you read allows intercession of the righteous.

Yes you can do dua to imams otherwise why would you read nad e Ali, was mola not ainullah, wajhullah, yadullah, nafsullah?

Allah in fact wants you to ask on their behalf because of their relationship with himself and the loyalty Masoom have showed him.

The proofs in the pudding, whenever I have asked mola for something he has never left me empty handed.

And no one try and twist my words as Allah is Allah and masoom are masoom - period.

This is plain shirk...

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This is plain shirk...

What is the definition of a "dua" according to you?

So it would be ok for me to say "inshali" instead of "inshallah"

because the will of the imam is Gods will?

I accept Imams do not disobey God, but God has infinite knowledge. Surely hill will resides on this infinite knowledge and awareness?

The imams seem to be demi-gods to me. They can be called upon to grant dua (with the belief God gives them power). They are omni present. Their will is Gods will, they have power over every atom?

In your opinion, what has Allah swt bestowed upon the Prophet (pbuh) and Imams (as)? What has Allah swt bestowed upon Adam (as) that Iblis has to obey and that Angels has to submit to?

Do you believe that Prophet (pbuh) and Imams (as) have not be blessed with something that we all don't have?

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Is asking help is a form of worship?

You think there is no difference between asking your wife or friend for something or asking Allah (swt)?

You don't make Dua to human beings do you. Last time I checked, not one single Imam ever did this nor did they ever say it is something we should do.

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You think there is no difference between asking your wife or friend for something or asking Allah (swt)?

You don't make Dua to human beings do you. Last time I checked, not one single Imam ever did this nor did they ever say it is something we should do.

Is asking a help is a worship?

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What's this god this god that business about? The Quran if you read allows intercession of the righteous.

Yes you can do dua to imams otherwise why would you read nad e Ali, was mola not ainullah, wajhullah, yadullah, nafsullah?

And no one try and twist my words as Allah is Allah and masoom are masoom - period.

1) What makes you think that the intercession mention isn't speaking about the Day of Judgement?

2) Nade Ali is a fabricated poem of Shirk. Please don't recite it brother

Allah in fact wants you to ask on their behalf because of their relationship with himself and the loyalty Masoom have showed him.

Can you please post verses which imply this from the Holy Qur'an? Thank you.

The proofs in the pudding, whenever I have asked mola for something he has never left me empty handed.

Oh my... :o

May Allah forgive you...

Is asking a help is a worship?

:huh: ?

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