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Ali-F

Imams Have Wilaya Takweenia And They Can Forget

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To everyone who has been thinking on this issue, I suggest that you go and read the narrations on sahw. They don't say that the Prophet (pbuh) forgot from himself. They say that Allah (swt) caused him to forget so that he could show the people how to correct their prayer and such. That doesn't negate the Prophet's ismah, rather it confirms it because he perfectly corrected his prayer when he was made to forget. In any case, I don't take a position on the issue.

Buddy it wasn't sheikh sadooq's belief. Read all hidaya and he says masoomenn do not forget. And this belief is attributed to his teacher al waleed. Don't get too carried away by misquotations sheik wouldn't be happy in his grave.

I hope you're aware that a number of our medieval scholars criticized Sheikh al-Saduq very harshly for his belief in sahw. Some of them actually praised Allah for cutting his life short because he was preparing to write an entire book on sahw (in defense of it) towards the end of his life. Sheikh al-Saduq (ra) and Ibn al-Walid (ra) believed in sahw.

Edited by al-Irshad

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In our Dua Kumail we say "zalamtu nafsi" that doesn't mean Imam Ali (as) sined and repenting. He is teaching us what to say are many verses of Quran. You guys really need to stop reading translations of Quran and come up with conclusions like this. Its a huge sin and if you don't repent there are punishments for it. I mean this is what makes us Shias different from Sunnis and Salafis and those so called Quranics.

There are good explanations that NONE of our prophets or Imams sinned or erred which explain those verses very well. Please do some research.

Edited by Ali-Reza

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It's not explained well, and almost everyone who is against it has no clue what it actually is. It's a nice way to summarize their status towards Allah, and that they retain it by their being the best slaves of Allah. It's a combination of things you (and most Shias) already believe:

1. The Ahl al-Bayt (as) are gifted with ismah.

2. Allah loves them, and they love Allah, and they only desire what is best for the ummah and the deen.

3. They are a mercy to the ummah as a source of guidance.

4. They make dua to Allah to give rizq to His creation, and their duas are absolutely accepted.

5. When they desire something, Allah grants it to them because they only desire for the benefit of the religion (i.e. Allah enabling Amir ul-Mumineen to singlehandedly lift the door during the Battle of Khaybar).

This narration sums it up pretty well:

Let's apply this to a case. You may have seen the video of Sayyid Muhammad Ridha Shirazi (qas) that the nawasib ripped apart because he said something to the extent of, "If the Imams say 'be', then it is." If you understand Wilayat al-Takwiniya, then there's nothing wrong with the statement. It just means that the Imams make dua for what they desire and we only expect them to desire what is beneficial for the deen, and Allah grants it because of His love for them.

That's because everyone assumes, and rightly so, that since Shias are muwahidun, they wouldn't need explanation on how the Ahl al-Bayt (as) are said to have some sort of control over creation (whether they exercise this or not is a completely different question). Unfortunately, while making this assumption, most people forget the subcontinent where some people think that the golden domes of the shrines are God or that Husain (as) is the qiblah, etc. It just goes to show that you can't even assume that laymen confidently know the basics of their religion.

It's very good to hear this, because this is exactly how I've always understood this concept.

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Naruto:

Your the jahil who takes everything that man writes, do you think every Hadith of his is reliable? NO! But ignorant Shias like yourself believe that Hadith is as reliable as the Quran. Wake up...

People like you doubt masoom And favour people like sadooq who DID bring down the status of Masoom but your faith is too weak to comprehend.

And you agree masoom forget? SHAME ON YOU, your a disgrace and not worth even replying to!!

Edited by shia4life

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"The Shia believe that the rank of Imamat (the position of a divinely-

appointed leader) is higher than that of prophethood and messengership.

Note that here we are comparing the rank of positions and not the rank of

persons. As such, two divinely appointed Imams which both have the highest

possible position from Allah, may have different ranks. For instance, out

of the twelve Imams of Ahlul-Bayt, Imam Ali (as) is the most virtuous. Also

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF) is more virtuous than Imam Ali (as) thought they

were both appointed by Allah as leaders.

In other words, Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF) is has the highest rank among

mankind, and is the most virtuous creature of God and the most honored

before Allah. The above belief does not undermine his position since

Prophet Muhammad was an Imam during his time as well!

However, comparing the * duty * of prophet and Imam is like comparing

apples and oranges or is like comparing the duty of a physician and an

engineer. Imamat and prophethood are totally different functions though

they may gather in one person such as Prophet Muhammad or Prophet Abraham,

peace be upon them."

People who are familiar with Quran to some extent, know that this belief is

not a weird-thing. In fact, Quran testifies that the position of Imamat is

higher than the position of prophethood and messengership. Allah, to whom

belong Might and Majesty, said:

"And when Abraham was tested by his Lord with certain commands and he

fulfilled them. Then He said: Lo! I appoint you an Imam for mankind."

(Quran 2:124).

I believe the prophets and imams dont forget. its illogical, Imam Ali for example said "ask me ask", he knew about everything, yet he can forget how to wash his hands for example no way! Just cause you dont forget doesnt make you god, some of you always try to bring the imams or prophets down by saying "no it cant be they were humans" yes but they were chosen, Allah does what He wills, nothing is impossible nor does it make them better then God. If I get a 100% on a test does that make me God? No, im good at taking tests. We humans no matter how perfect we are or what "abilities" we have will never reach Allah's status, nor can it be comparable. Stop being close minded, wa salaam

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@pureethics, have you actually read the narrations on sahw? Actually, this is for everyone.

Note: I don't take a position on this issue, so do not read into this.

no i dont even know what sahw is.

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where can i find these narrations? do the imams themseleves have said they forget? or is it fallible scholars who believe so?

These are narrations of the Imams (as)... I don't understand why people talk about this issue without having actually seen what they sources say on it. It is one thing to disagree with the matn of the narration after having read it, but it is a completely different thing to disagree with a concept after having read nothing on the topic.

Insha'Allah, I or one of the other brothers can post some for you.

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These are narrations of the Imams (as)... I don't understand why people talk about this issue without having actually seen what they sources say on it. It is one thing to disagree with the matn of the narration after having read it, but it is a completely different thing to disagree with a concept after having read nothing on the topic.

Insha'Allah, I or one of the other brothers can post some for you.

Its illogical to me, just as it is to say prophets can make err or sin. The reason why I say so is because of their knowledge of the unseen and seen. If they have all this knowledge without forgetting, but yet they can forget other simple things. Now if Allah makes them forget for certain things thats another story. Plus many people here post like 20 hadiths from one scholar without even looking at it from all sides. Maybe that same scholar has other hadiths contradicting it, or other scholars have other rules which testify against it based on other evidence. People are one sided to many topics on this site, very narrow minded.

Edited by pureethics

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Brother, I'm not misquoting him. For the first quote, it says, :

قال مصنف هذا الكتاب

Which means: "The compiler of this book said"

That's obviously Sheikh Al-Sedooq,

As for the second quote, I'm not exactly sure, it could either be Al-Sedooq, or his Sheikh.

(wasalam)

Salamalaikum,

Brother naruto and am irshad

No its not u bro its these translators and websites who don't understand the issue n misquote it. For the calibre of sadooq a.r and the ignorance in general of the people; this issue has not been properly put forward.

There was this hadees in circulation that the first step of ghuluw is to deny sahw and sheik sadooq did not regard it as totally authentic and with the "if clause" sheik sadooq says that if this narration is authentic....

He goes on quoting many narrations regarding sahw all over the place and those narrations include a common clause of "if Allah wills we can" and "for this to be an example to you so if you forget you do it in such a way" and we are "addressing it our family but neighbours listen"

For e.g: imam a s is asked about time of his death seat one place he a.s says: Allah azwj makes us forget that something has got poison in it however there were many instances that poison did not work on them a.s but at their time of death it worked.

And another reason they a.s gave was that they have a wasiyya from rasool Allah saws and they look in to it and when they have done all their duties comes the time of their death.

Both reasons have a thing in common which is designated time with the will of Allah azwj. So I don't know why an alim should have problems in accepting such narrations and understanding their meanings .

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Its illogical to me, just as it is to say prophets can make err or sin. The reason why I say so is because of their knowledge of the unseen and seen. If they have all this knowledge without forgetting, but yet they can forget other simple things. Now if Allah makes them forget for certain things thats another story. Plus many people here post like 20 hadiths from one scholar without even looking at it from all sides. Maybe that same scholar has other hadiths contradicting it, or other scholars have other rules which testify against it based on other evidence. People are one sided to many topics on this site, very narrow minded.

This is why I told you to go read the hadiths because that's what they say.

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Al Irshad, I believe the problem is that a lot of people take Wilaya Takweenia to mean the Ma'soomeen (as) do not need to even perform dua to Allah SWT, and yet they retain the ability of "kun fayakun" (be, and it becomes).

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This is why I told you to go read the hadiths because that's what they say.

Al Irshad, I believe the problem is that a lot of people take Wilaya Takweenia to mean the Ma'soomeen (as) do not need to even perform dua to Allah SWT, and yet they retain the ability of "kun fayakun" (be, and it becomes).

Okay then why are people thinking they are forgetful?

Hassoon, the beauty that makes the masoomeen purified and perfect is the fact that they dont need to but they still dua why? to teach us and and to prove that is the reason why they are chosen.

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Okay then why are people thinking they are forgetful?

Hassoon, the beauty that makes the masoomeen purified and perfect is the fact that they dont need to but they still dua why? to teach us and and to prove that is the reason why they are chosen.

1. They leave out the part about Allah willing it. Go and read the hadiths when they are posted.

2. The Imams (as) say in the hadiths that if they were to speak by their own desires, Allah would destroy them. If that's true, then what makes you think they don't need to make dua?

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ARE YOU SERIOUS!?! Every messenger, prophet and imam has ismah and is pure in the same way that the Ahl al-Bayt (as) are pure. Don't tell me... You believe that Yunus (as) was imprisoned in the belly of the whale because he refused to testify to the wilayat of Amir ul-Mumineen (as)!!!

YES I AM SERIOUS! that Ahlebait, (as) are on a higher level of ismah than those Prophets, (as). Esa, (as)'s mother was asked to leave first Qiblah at the time of her delivery ,but Ali, (as)'s Mother gave birth inside Kaa'ba. Many Prophets had turk e ula, but never did any of Imam, (as) err. Adam, (as) was tempted to eat wheat, Ali, (as) and other Aimma, (as) never succumbed before any temptation. Our Syeda, (as) has been declared pure by her Father,(saww) from every womanly contamination, but was mother of every Prophet was that pure? No. As much as the message is higher, the perfection of its protector is higher as well. Other Divine Books got corrupted ,Quran is going to remain intact forever. You can't make analogies between their ismah, similarly. Allah has said 'every kind of rijs' has been kept away from them, then show me a single verse, or even Hadeeth testifying the same for other Prophets?

If they were going to have same level of Ismah, then there was no need of Ayah e Tatheer's revelation.

P.S no i don't hold this view for Younas, (as).

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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1. They leave out the part about Allah willing it. Go and read the hadiths when they are posted.

2. The Imams (as) say in the hadiths that if they were to speak by their own desires, Allah would destroy them. If that's true, then what makes you think they don't need to make dua?

They have all ready acknowledged Allah. Also when hadith is talking about their own desire they mean worldy desire, their desire is still theirs but because of their position and 100% submission to Allah their desire is only for and from Allah. Also Allah already knows they wont which is why he still mentions it to show their position. Therefore, they dont need it, but they still do it anyway because anyone and everyone should hold a connection with Allah, and that is duaing. Being perfect doesnt mean you shouldnt dua, at the same time just because the imam duas doesnt mean their ability of "be and it is" is weak. Also imagine if they didnt dua, do you think we would have still? Dont forget even prophets dua.

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(bismillah)

Al Irshad, I believe the problem is that a lot of people take Wilaya Takweenia to mean the Ma'soomeen (as) do not need to even perform dua to Allah SWT, and yet they retain the ability of "kun fayakun" (be, and it becomes).

Salam.

Inshallah you are doing well.

Thats because we have narrations in which Imam's (as) have showed their authority without making Dua.

Here is one such authentic narrations:

حدثنا محمد بن الحسن بن أحمد بن الوليد رضي اللهعنه قال حدثنا محمد بن الحسن الصفار و سعد بن عبدالله جميعا عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى عن الحسن بن علي بن يقطين عن أخيه الحسين عنأبيه علي بن يقطين قال استدعى الرشيد رجلا يبطل به أمر أبي الحسن موسى بن جعفر ( ع ) ويقطعه و يخجله في المسجد فانتدب له رجل معزم فلما أحضرت المائدة عمل ناموسا علىالخبز فكان كلما رام أبو الحسن ( ع ) تناول رغيف من الخبز طار من بين يديه و استفز منهارون الفرح و الضحك لذلك فلم يلبث أبو الحسن ( ع ) أن رفع رأسه إلى أسد مصور على بعضالستور فقال له يا أسد خذ عدو الله قال فوثبت تلك الصورة كأعظم ما يكون من السباعفافترست ذلك المعزم فخر هارون و ندماؤه على وجوههم مغشيا عليهم فطارت عقولهم خوفامن هول ما رأوه فلما أفاقوا من ذلك قال هارون لأبي الحسن ( ع ) سألتك بحقي عليك لماسألت الصورة أن ترد الرجل فقال إن كانت عصا موسى ردت ما ابتلعته من حبال القوم وعصيهم فأن هذه الصورة ترد ما ابتلعته من هذا الرجل فكان ذلك أعمل الأشياء في إفاتةنفسه

Muhammad ibn Al-Hassan ibn Ahmad ibn al-Waleed – may God be pleased with him – narrated that Muhammad ibn Al-Hassan al-Saffar and Sa’d ibn Abdullah quoted on the authority of Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Isa, on the authority of Al-Hassan ibn Ali ibn Yaqteen, on the authority of his brother Al-Hussein, on the authority of his father Ali ibn Yaqteen,

“Harun Ar-Rashid was looking for someone who could make fun of Abil Hassan Musa ibn Ja’far (as), belittle him and defeat him in arguments in a meeting. A magician volunteered to do so. When they spread the table to eat, the magician put a spell on the bread so that whenever Abul Hassan (as) wanted to grab a piece of bread to eat, it would fly away from his hands. Harun was very pleased and laughed a lot at this.

Then Abul Hassan (as) turned to the picture of a lion which was on a portrait and said, “O Lion! Seize this enemy of God!” The narrator of the tradition added, “Then the picture of the lion turned into a big lion, jumped on the magician, and tore him up.”

Then Harun and all his companions who were present were watching got scared, fainted and fell down. When they regained consciousness, Harun told Abil Hassan (as), “I beg you by the right I have over you to ask the picture to return that man.” Then the Imam (as) said, “If the Cane of Moses (as) returned the canes and the ropes which it swallowed, this picture will also return that man.”

The narrator of this tradition added, “This was one of the most important reason why Imam (as) was martyred.”

[source: Uyoon akhbar ur raza, Vol 1, Chapter 8, Pg.95,96]

Note: Authentic/Reliable Hadees as per the Chain of narrators.

http://www.marefatea...aising-the-dead

2. The Imams (as) say in the hadiths that if they were to speak by their own desires, Allah would destroy them. If that's true, then what makes you think they don't need to make dua?

Salam.

Inshallah you are doing well.

Correct the Imam's (as) do not speak of their own desires and Allah (swt) has taken guarantee of that in the Quran.

وَمَا تَشَاءُونَ إِلَّا أَن يَشَاءَ اللَّهُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًا

“But ye will not, except as Allah wills; for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom” [Quran 76:30]

There are quite a few narrations which talk about this verse. Quoting one here:

ثم قال : وجئت تسأله عن مقالة المفوضة ، كذبوا، بل قلوبنا أوعية لمشية الله ، فإذا شاء شئنا ، والله يقول :وما تشآؤون إلاأن يشآء الله

Imam Hasan Askar (as) said,

"You have come to ask about the Mufaw'wiza. They (Mufaw'wiza) have lied. But our hearts are containers of the Will of Allah (swt), so when Allah (swt) wills, We will. And Allah (swt) has said, "And you will not will, but as Allah Wills" [Quran 76:30]

[source: Al-Gaibha - Sheikh Toosi, Pg. 159]

One can read further here: http://www.marefatea...ilayat-of-Allah

Edited by muhibb-ali

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They have all ready acknowledged Allah. Also when hadith is talking about their own desire they mean worldy desire, their desire is still theirs but because of their position and 100% submission to Allah their desire is only for and from Allah. Also Allah already knows they wont which is why he still mentions it to show their position. Therefore, they dont need it, but they still do it anyway because anyone and everyone should hold a connection with Allah, and that is duaing. Being perfect doesnt mean you shouldnt dua, at the same time just because the imam duas doesnt mean their ability of "be and it is" is weak. Also imagine if they didnt dua, do you think we would have still? Dont forget even prophets dua.

In effect, you're saying that the Imams (as) don't need to do du`a to have this ability... So, you believe in shirk?

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In effect, you're saying that the Imams (as) don't need to do du`a to have this ability... So, you believe in shirk?

Its not what I think, its Allah who makes the decision. I cant say anything. If Allah wants to he gives them the ability whether they dua or not. Dua doesnt have a direct correlation with their ability, maybe indirect. I believe in shirk? what do you mean? For example, did Jesus dua to Allah for him to bring the dead back. no Allah said Be and he did.

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Its not what I think, its Allah who makes the decision. I cant say anything. If Allah wants to he gives them the ability whether they dua or not. Dua doesnt have a direct correlation with their ability, maybe indirect. I believe in shirk? what do you mean? For example, did Jesus dua to Allah for him to bring the dead back. no Allah said Be and he did.

You should read what our scholars say about this example. Isa (as) desired (i.e. du`a) to bring back the dead to make the people aware of his status as a messenger. Allah (swt) accepted his du`a because he wished only to strengthen the deen by it and made it appear as though Isa (as) had brought back the dead when it was in fact Allah (swt) who had done it.

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You should read what our scholars say about this example. Isa (as) desired (i.e. du`a) to bring back the dead to make the people aware of his status as a messenger. Allah (swt) accepted his du`a because he wished only to strengthen the deen by it and made it appear as though Isa (as) had brought back the dead when it was in fact Allah (swt) who had done it.

can you please provide me proof. Also I dont know how desire correlates to supplicating. For me to prove my point i need one example of a prophet or imam not dua-ing and Allah giving them the ability. While you have to prove to me every single one of them dua-ed. How about prophet Muhammad, did he supplicate to be able to read or did Allah just say "read" and he did.

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can you please provide me proof. Also I dont know how desire correlates to supplicating. For me to prove my point i need one example of a prophet or imam not dua-ing and Allah giving them the ability. While you have to prove to me every single one of them dua-ed. How about prophet Muhammad, did he supplicate to be able to read or did Allah just say "read" and he did.

1. The burden of proof is the same for both. In fact, it is actually more correct to assume that they make du`a because they are subservient to Allah.

2. I hope you realize that we don't believe that the Prophet (pbuh) was unlettered so your example about him is irrelevant. He was commanded to read, which he could, so he listened and obeyed as the believers are expected to do.

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(bismillah)

In effect, you're saying that the Imams (as) don't need to do du`a to have this ability... So, you believe in shirk?

Salam.

Inshallah you are doing well.

The verse in the Quran regarding Prophet Isa (as) is the following:

وَرَسُولًا إِلَىٰ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ أَنِّي قَدْ جِئْتُكُم بِآيَةٍ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ ۖ أَنِّي أَخْلُقُ لَكُم مِّنَ الطِّينِ كَهَيْئَةِ الطَّيْرِ فَأَنفُخُ فِيهِ فَيَكُونُ طَيْرًا بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۖ وَأُبْرِئُ الْأَكْمَهَ وَالْأَبْرَصَ وَأُحْيِي الْمَوْتَىٰ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۖ وَأُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا تَأْكُلُونَ وَمَا تَدَّخِرُونَ فِي بُيُوتِكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَةً لَّكُمْ إِن كُنتُم مُّؤْمِنِينَ

"And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe" [Quran 3:49]

So its clear that Prophet Isa (as) did it with the permission of Allah (swt). There is no mention of dua any where... and this is no where close to Shirq due to the very phrase "by Allah's (swt) permission"....

Also the following authentic narration proves that the Imam's (as) have the authority to raise the dead by Allah (swt) permission (with or without dua).. As one would not need permission of Allah (swt) to make dua right....

عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ الْحَكَمِ عَنْ مُثَنًّى الْحَنَّاطِ عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ قَالَ دَخَلْتُ عَلَى أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ ع فَقُلْتُ لَهُ أَنْتُمْ وَرَثَةُ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص قَالَ نَعَمْ قُلْتُ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ص وَارِثُ الْأَنْبِيَاءِ عَلِمَ كُلَّ مَا عَلِمُوا قَالَ لِي نَعَمْ قُلْتُ فَأَنْتُمْ تَقْدِرُونَ عَلَى أَنْ تُحْيُوا الْمَوْتَى وَ تُبْرِءُوا الْأَكْمَهَ وَ الْأَبْرَصَ قَالَ نَعَمْ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ثُمَّ قَالَ لِيَ ادْنُ مِنِّي يَا أَبَا مُحَمَّدٍ فَدَنَوْتُ مِنْهُ فَمَسَحَ عَلَى وَجْهِي وَ عَلَى عَيْنَيَّ فَأَبْصَرْتُ الشَّمْسَ وَ السَّمَاءَ وَ الْأَرْضَ وَ الْبُيُوتَ وَ كُلَّ شَيْ‏ءٍ فِي الْبَلَدِ ثُمَّ قَالَ لِي أَ تُحِبُّ أَنْ تَكُونَ هَكَذَا وَ لَكَ مَا لِلنَّاسِ وَ عَلَيْكَ مَا عَلَيْهِمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ أَوْ تَعُودَ كَمَا كُنْتَ وَ لَكَ الْجَنَّةُ خَالِصاً قُلْتُ أَعُودُ كَمَا كُنْتُ فَمَسَحَ عَلَى عَيْنَيَّ فَعُدْتُ كَمَا كُنْتُ قَالَ فَحَدَّثْتُ ابْنَ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ بِهَذَا فَقَالَ أَشْهَدُ أَنَّ هَذَا حَقٌّ كَمَا أَنَّ النَّهَارَ حَق‏

A number of our people have narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from Ali ibn al-Hakam from al-Muthanna al-Hannat from abu Basir who has said the following.

"Once I went to see Abu Ja‘far (as) and asked him, "Are you the heirs of the Messenger of Allah?" He said, "Yes, we are his heirs." I then asked, "Was the Messenger of Allah the heir of the prophets and knew all that they knew?" He said to me, "Yes, it is true." I then asked, "Do you have the power to bring the dead back to life and cure the lepers, and the blind?" He said, "Yes, we do have such powers by the permission of Allah." Then he said to me, "Come closer to me, O Abu Muhammad." I went closer to him and he rubbed my face and my eyes and I saw the sun, the skies, the earth, the houses and all things in the town. Then he said to me, "Do you like to live this way and will have what others have and be responsible for whatever they will be held responsible on the Day of Judgment or like to live as before and will have paradise purely?" I said, "I would like to live as I lived before." He rubbed my eyes and I found myself as before."

The narrator has said that he told it to ibn abu ‘Umayr who said, "I testify that this is true just as the day is true."

[source: Al Kaafi, Vol.1 Pg.470]

Authentic/Reliable Hadees as per the Chain of narrators. See Miraat-Al-Uqool - Allama Majlisi - Vol.6 Pg.19

Apart from this we have narrations in which Imam's (as) have raised the dead without any dua...Have already quoted the narration in a post above.

read more here: http://www.marefatea...aising-the-dead

Further more...You don't need dua to raise the dead, even the Quran can be used to raise the dead...

وَ لَوْ أَنَّ قُرْآناً سُيِّرَتْ بِهِ الْجِبالُ أَوْ قُطِّعَتْ بِهِ الْأَرْضُ أَوْ كُلِّمَ بِهِ الْمَوْتى‏

"If there were a Qur'an with which mountains were moved, or the earth were cloven asunder, or the dead were made to speak, (this would be the one!)" [13:31]

Read the tafseer of this verse here: http://www.marefatea...l-ra-d/verse-31

Wassalam

Edited by muhibb-ali

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1. The burden of proof is the same for both. In fact, it is actually more correct to assume that they make du`a because they are subservient to Allah.

2. I hope you realize that we don't believe that the Prophet (pbuh) was unlettered so your example about him is irrelevant. He was commanded to read, which he could, so he listened and obeyed as the believers are expected to do.

Im not arguing wether they make dua or not, because I already know they do. I have said it before its their nature. But, that doesnt mean they need to dua. Allah knows they dont have wants or needs, everything they do is for Allah. We know the are infallible but why do they say forgive me Allah in their prayers? is it because they need to? no, its their nature, they understand Allah, more than we can understand him. By the way the burden of proof isnt the same, as I have said before, you need to prove to me all prophets and imams duad before Allah when Allah bestowed upon them his powers, where I just need one example and your theory is broken. I believe the poster above explained it well. Can I have the proof where Jesus prayed before having the power to bring back the dead? How about Prophet Solomon, when he travels faster than light? Or when he can talk with animals? How about prophet Moses when crosses the sea? How about Imam Ali when breaking the gate in battle? How about Imam Mahdi when going into occultation? ....please provide each proof.

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Perhaps both of you are right if supplication doesn't necessarily imply any formality (i.e. raising hands, and articulation of a request). The fact of the matter is that an Imam does not do anything independently since he doesn't have an independent existence. The Imam's will is God's will.

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Perhaps both of you are right if supplication doesn't necessarily imply any formality (i.e. raising hands, and articulation of a request). The fact of the matter is that an Imam does not do anything independently since he doesn't have an independent existence. The Imam's will is God's will.

Well, the thing is, i wouldnt say their existence is independent, i would say they are in "perfect" submission with Allah's will, by their own choice. Thus, Allah being out of space and time, and all knowing, chose them. What you desire and choose is two different things. Beings chosen by Allah, whether it be prophets, imams, aaron, fatima, maryam..didnt have "desires" from the materialistic point of view. But they did have their own choices, which automatically fell into Allah's will, which is why we say everything thing they did is for Allah and it is what Allah wanted from them.

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Wilayat e Takwini is essentially wilayat over everything. How do we go about saying that the ieema (as) have wilayat over everything?

I think this can be understood through a couple of smaller examples:

We know that it is Allah who creates and gives life, but we can also see in the quran that Allah gave authority to Nabi Isa (as) in the instance where he molded the bird and breathed life into it (5:110)

in this instance Isa (as) made something, with the authority Allah gave to him. The power to create is Allah's but He let Isa use it.

We know that it is Allah who has authority over the death (39:42), but then He says that He gave authority of this to the angel of death and that he takes your soul in (32:11)

This is another instance of Allah who has authority over everything appointing someone the ability to use this authority.

Also Allah has said that he was going to create man to be His Caliph on earth.

Quran also says on Qiyyamat that intercession will be given by His permission.

So we can see through these examples that Allah does bestow parts of His authority to those of His representatives that He chooses when He chooses.

So now, with that being said, how does this tie into the ieema .... We know the quran says our wali is Allah, the Messenger(S) and those who believe, the believers who make salaat and give zakaat while in ruku'. That ayat, along with ghadeer e khumm, establishes wilayat of the Imam over men, the quran was also revealed to creation cause we know the Jinns would listen to it, so we can use this to establish wilayat over these two races. If we look at Haddith e Kisaa we see that Allah says verily I created for the love of these people under the Yemeni cloak. So, if this is to be taken literally we also see that the only reason Allah created was out of love for the Ahlul Bayt.

There is a narration I heard during this last Muharram where the sheik was relaying a story from the time of Imam Reza (as) where a woman was claiming to be Zainab (as) and he suggested they put her in a cage with the lions because even the wild beasts are under the authority of the ahlul bayt, The Thallim of the time said we should test it with you and put him in the cage. All the lions layed down around him and became docile.

The quran says that it is Allah who controls the winds so that we might navigate the ocean, but we know that Allah gave authority of the winds to Suluman (as) as well as authority over the Jinn.

But this still does not entirely answer the question now does it. It shows that:

-Allah has all authority

-Allah can and has "loaned" His authority out to His chosen servants

--Different prophets have been given varying degrees of authority over various aspects of creation

---the ieema inherit from the prophets (ziyarat waritha)

-Allah has proclaimed the Wiliyat of the ieema (as) in the quran over the addresses of the Quran

-Imam Riza (as) said the ahlul bayt has authority over the beasts

-Prophet (s) had the authority to split the moon

--make the rocks speak from his hand

--make water pour from his hand

From these things we can draw conclusion that the Ieema had authority over everything. As to its being specifically stated somewhere, I am not aware of any one place where the authority over everything is stated like that word for word, the only thing I could say is that the Quran was revealed for creation not just for mankind. And the addresses in 5:55, if we consider the quran to be revealed to all of creation, are told that the Imam had wilayat.

IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: All the authority is Allah's and if he chooses to give it to someone he can also choose to revoke it. Those given authority do not override Allah. Some people attribute this authority as something irrevocable and this makes them ghulat. Also I saw in some of the posts about dua of some prophets not being answered, notice that in these instances where you see this Allah knows something they do not, whenever a prophet of Imam makes dua and it is in accordance with what Allah would command then He grants it. Allah knew the heart of the son of Nuh (as) but Nuh (as) did not so Allah clarified it for him.

As to the Ieema or the Prophets (as) having the ability to forget. This one can be completely understood through logic. We understand the ismat of them the same way. If a prophet could sin then he could mislead the people, and if they could mislead the people then they (the people) could have an arguement against Allah on Qiyyamat that He sent a poor example to guide them. This would be a flaw in Allah (astaghfirallh wa audthu billah) so we know they had to be sinless because of that. If they had the ability to forget something then could have had the ability to forget anything in the eyes of the people and they would pose the argument on Qiyymat that due to their prophets forgetting this or that they doubted him in that he might have forgotten part of the revelation.

In the instance of Musa (as) and Kidther (as) this is not a case of him forgetting something. I remembered that he had made the agreement not to ask questions, but as they progressed on their journey and Kidther kept doing things that Musa did not understand he had to ask to understand. Musa was given knowledge of shariah, Kidther was given knowledge of Ghaybat (the unseen), since what Kidther had was different and something Musa did not have then based on the understanding of Musa some of these things seemed wrong and if he had watched Kidther doing Thulm and didn't at least speak against it he would have been wrong. Knowing the status of Kidther, Musa had to at least ask why he was doing things. If not this would have led the people to believe that if they saw Thulm being done they could just assume that it was probably ok because they didn't know all the facts. Plus the quran doesn't say he forgot.

Salaams

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(bismillah)

Salam.

Inshallah you are doing well.

Thats because we have narrations in which Imam's (as) have showed their authority without making Dua.

Here is one such authentic narrations:

حدثنا محمد بن الحسن بن أحمد بن الوليد رضي اللهعنه قال حدثنا محمد بن الحسن الصفار و سعد بن عبدالله جميعا عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى عن الحسن بن علي بن يقطين عن أخيه الحسين عنأبيه علي بن يقطين قال استدعى الرشيد رجلا يبطل به أمر أبي الحسن موسى بن جعفر ( ع ) ويقطعه و يخجله في المسجد فانتدب له رجل معزم فلما أحضرت المائدة عمل ناموسا علىالخبز فكان كلما رام أبو الحسن ( ع ) تناول رغيف من الخبز طار من بين يديه و استفز منهارون الفرح و الضحك لذلك فلم يلبث أبو الحسن ( ع ) أن رفع رأسه إلى أسد مصور على بعضالستور فقال له يا أسد خذ عدو الله قال فوثبت تلك الصورة كأعظم ما يكون من السباعفافترست ذلك المعزم فخر هارون و ندماؤه على وجوههم مغشيا عليهم فطارت عقولهم خوفامن هول ما رأوه فلما أفاقوا من ذلك قال هارون لأبي الحسن ( ع ) سألتك بحقي عليك لماسألت الصورة أن ترد الرجل فقال إن كانت عصا موسى ردت ما ابتلعته من حبال القوم وعصيهم فأن هذه الصورة ترد ما ابتلعته من هذا الرجل فكان ذلك أعمل الأشياء في إفاتةنفسه

Muhammad ibn Al-Hassan ibn Ahmad ibn al-Waleed – may God be pleased with him – narrated that Muhammad ibn Al-Hassan al-Saffar and Sa’d ibn Abdullah quoted on the authority of Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Isa, on the authority of Al-Hassan ibn Ali ibn Yaqteen, on the authority of his brother Al-Hussein, on the authority of his father Ali ibn Yaqteen,

“Harun Ar-Rashid was looking for someone who could make fun of Abil Hassan Musa ibn Ja’far (as), belittle him and defeat him in arguments in a meeting. A magician volunteered to do so. When they spread the table to eat, the magician put a spell on the bread so that whenever Abul Hassan (as) wanted to grab a piece of bread to eat, it would fly away from his hands. Harun was very pleased and laughed a lot at this.

Then Abul Hassan (as) turned to the picture of a lion which was on a portrait and said, “O Lion! Seize this enemy of God!” The narrator of the tradition added, “Then the picture of the lion turned into a big lion, jumped on the magician, and tore him up.”

Then Harun and all his companions who were present were watching got scared, fainted and fell down. When they regained consciousness, Harun told Abil Hassan (as), “I beg you by the right I have over you to ask the picture to return that man.” Then the Imam (as) said, “If the Cane of Moses (as) returned the canes and the ropes which it swallowed, this picture will also return that man.”

The narrator of this tradition added, “This was one of the most important reason why Imam (as) was martyred.”

[source: Uyoon akhbar ur raza, Vol 1, Chapter 8, Pg.95,96]

Note: Authentic/Reliable Hadees as per the Chain of narrators.

I'm not rijaali inclined, as I believe it's not a science, but according to whom is the sanad for this hadeeth "Authentic/Reliable" ? Are you referring to Majlisi's opinion, al-Khu'i, or your own?

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I'm not rijaali inclined, as I believe it's not a science, but according to whom is the sanad for this hadeeth "Authentic/Reliable" ? Are you referring to Majlisi's opinion, al-Khu'i, or your own?

It's from Naqd al rijaal where opinions of Tusi, najashi, kashi , ghadairi are quoted.

http://www.*******.org/rijal/naqd

mohammad bin hasan assaffar

he was thiqa

see this link

http://www.rafed.net….-4/13.html#540

and along with him is saad bin abdullah

he is also thiqa and a great faqih

http://www.rafed.net….-2/21.html#995

both of these took if from ahmad bin mohamad bin esa

he was thiqa, and great faqih

http://www.rafed.net….-1/12.html#335

hasan bin ali bin yaqteen

he was thiqa and faqih

http://www.rafed.net….-2/04.html#119

he took it from his brother

hussein bin ali bin yaqteen

he is also thiqa

http://www.rafed.net….-2/08.html#276

next is their father ali bin yaqteen, he is also thiqa

http://www.rafed.net….3/21.html#1037

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