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Ali-F

Imams Have Wilaya Takweenia And They Can Forget

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Salam alaykum

These thing happens very strange to me, and I really search answers, indeed!

1. Imams have wilaya Takweenia - what is the view from our scholars?

2. Imams and prophets can forget.. There is a prove: In the holy quran Musa said to Khizr that he wouldn't ask again, but he asked again.. Didn't he forget there? And what is the answer by our scholars?

Wa'salam khayr inshallah

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Salam alaykum

These thing happens very strange to me, and I really search answers, indeed!

1. Imams have wilaya Takweenia - what is the view from our scholars?

2. Imams and prophets can forget.. There is a prove: In the holy quran Musa said to Khizr that he wouldn't ask again, but he asked again.. Didn't he forget there? And what is the answer by our scholars?

Wa'salam khayr inshallah

Depending on how you define it, wilaya takwiniyah can be plain shirk.

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They were human beings, and not some demi-Gods.

Musa a.s forgot what Khidr said. There in itself is direct evidence they can indeed forget.

Otherwise Imams are sinless robots who can not even do anything wrong, not even a simple mistake that is not a sin. I can't relate to them , and there is ample Quranic evidence against that.

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They were human beings, and not some demi-Gods.

Musa a.s forgot what Khidr said. There in itself is direct evidence they can indeed forget.

Otherwise Imams are sinless robots who can not even do anything wrong, not even a simple mistake that is not a sin. I can't relate to them , and there is ample Quranic evidence against that.

They were human beings, and not some demi-Gods.

Musa a.s forgot what Khidr said. There in itself is direct evidence they can indeed forget.

Otherwise Imams are sinless robots who can not even do anything wrong, not even a simple mistake that is not a sin. I can't relate to them , and there is ample Quranic evidence against that.

The imams aren't robots and they can do things which we also can, but they will not do it. You can do the same, so stop that nonsens. In all due to respect.

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Salam alaykum

These thing happens very strange to me, and I really search answers, indeed!

1. Imams have wilaya Takweenia - what is the view from our scholars?

2. Imams and prophets can forget.. There is a prove: In the holy quran Musa said to Khizr that he wouldn't ask again, but he asked again.. Didn't he forget there? And what is the answer by our scholars?

Wa'salam khayr inshallah

You are wrong because of multiple reasons. To find out why first you need to answer the following questions:

1-What is the exact meaning of wilayat takwini? (You do understand that you have to prove this meaning using reliable Islamic sources)

2-What is the relationship between "forgetting" and wilayat takwini?

3-You used the Prophet Moses as an example without proving he has wilayat takwini (I have not heard that anyone other than our Imams and our Prophet (as) have wilayat takwini)?

4-Do our Imams forget?

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Brother, you mistunderstood me.

I am not trying to proving anything, and I am not trying to make an relationshop between these two. What I am trying to do is, that I want to know what's the exactly meaning of these two.

Forgive me if I didn't take more proves, but the proof with Musa as was from Ali_Musaaa, so I am trying to ask you guys about these issues. Jazzakallahkum khayr!

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Sheikh al-Sedooq actually said that the Ghulats believe that the Imams/Prophets (as) could never forget, and he cursed them.

lol@ Ali Musa, you liked my post only a couple of seconds after I posted it. Weird. :S

Edited by Naruto

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Sheikh al-Sedooq actually said that the Ghulats believe that the Imams/Prophets (as) could never forget, and he cursed them.

He also said and did the same to the people who recited Imam 'Ali's (as) name in Adhan, Iqama and their Salaah as well, no?

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There's actually nothing wrong with the belief if you actually understand it.

I'd love that, considering the fact that what I've been told about it, isn't too appealing. Perhaps it wasn't explained accurately. Would you be able to explain it please brother?

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Don't worry about who I am, worry about who sadooq is.

How do you know what he said was correct? he said a lot of things that I have heard in this website that amaze me.

He came years later and you want to take every word of his as the imams said? I don't buy into these type of people who for fame and money would bring down the status of masoom.

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I'd love that, considering the fact that what I've been told about it, isn't too appealing. Perhaps it wasn't explained accurately. Would you be able to explain it please brother?

It's not explained well, and almost everyone who is against it has no clue what it actually is. It's a nice way to summarize their status towards Allah, and that they retain it by their being the best slaves of Allah. It's a combination of things you (and most Shias) already believe:

1. The Ahl al-Bayt (as) are gifted with ismah.

2. Allah loves them, and they love Allah, and they only desire what is best for the ummah and the deen.

3. They are a mercy to the ummah as a source of guidance.

4. They make dua to Allah to give rizq to His creation, and their duas are absolutely accepted.

5. When they desire something, Allah grants it to them because they only desire for the benefit of the religion (i.e. Allah enabling Amir ul-Mumineen to singlehandedly lift the door during the Battle of Khaybar).

This narration sums it up pretty well:

38 – Sa`d from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa from al-Husayn b. Sa`id from Hammad b. `Isa from Ibrahim b. `Umar al-Yamani from Abu ‘t-Tufayl from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام [from his fathers]. He said: The Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله said to Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام: Write down what I dictate to you. So he said: O Prophet of Allah, and are you fearful of forgetfulness for me? So said: I do not fear forgetfulness for you, as I have prayed to Allah for you that He guard you (or, make you remember) and that He not make you forget. However, write for your associates. He said: I said: And who are my associates, O Prophet of Allah? He said: The Imams from my children. Through them, my Umma shall be given the rain to drink. And through them, their prayers will be answered. And through them, Allah shall turn affliction away from them. And through them, mercy shall be sent down from Heaven.

http://www.tashayyu....bsira/chapter-6

Let's apply this to a case. You may have seen the video of Sayyid Muhammad Ridha Shirazi (qas) that the nawasib ripped apart because he said something to the extent of, "If the Imams say 'be', then it is." If you understand Wilayat al-Takwiniya, then there's nothing wrong with the statement. It just means that the Imams make dua for what they desire and we only expect them to desire what is beneficial for the deen, and Allah grants it because of His love for them.

Edited by al-Irshad

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^ Hmm, interesting. It has never been put like that before. I will do more research insha'Allah

That's because everyone assumes, and rightly so, that since Shias are muwahidun, they wouldn't need explanation on how the Ahl al-Bayt (as) are said to have some sort of control over creation (whether they exercise this or not is a completely different question). Unfortunately, while making this assumption, most people forget the subcontinent where some people think that the golden domes of the shrines are God or that Husain (as) is the qiblah, etc. It just goes to show that you can't even assume that laymen confidently know the basics of their religion.

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I don't know if the word has come in ahadees but here is the right belief.

5 - بصائر الدرجات: عن محمد بن عبد الجبار، عن اللؤلؤي، عن أحمد الميثمي، عن صالح، عن أبي حمزة، عن علي بن الحسين عليهما السلام قال: يا أبا حمزة لا تنامن قبل طلوع الشمس فاني أكرهها لك، إن الله يقسم في ذلك الوقت أرزاق العباد وعلى أيدينا يجريها

 

Imam Ali bin Hussein asws told Abu Hamza Thamali

 

"O Abu Hamza! do not sleep before Sun Rise, We dislike that. Allah distributes sustenance/Rizq at that time to his people, and it is carried out via our hands"

 

Reference:-

 

Bihar ul Anwaar, 73/185

That's because everyone assumes, and rightly so, that since Shias are muwahidun, they wouldn't need explanation on how the Ahl al-Bayt (as) are said to have some sort of control over creation (whether they exercise this or not is a completely different question). Unfortunately, while making this assumption, most people forget the subcontinent where some people think that the golden domes of the shrines are God or that Husain (as) is the qiblah, etc. It just goes to show that you can't even assume that laymen confidently know the basics of their religion.

The best of the believers live in the subcontinent bro and I am sure generalising them due to their lack of command in Arabic only shows ignorance of others

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It's not explained well, and almost everyone who is against it has no clue what it actually is. It's a nice way to summarize their status towards Allah, and that they retain it by their being the best slaves of Allah. It's a combination of things you (and most Shias) already believe:

1. The Ahl al-Bayt (as) are gifted with ismah.

2. Allah loves them, and they love Allah, and they only desire what is best for the ummah and the deen.

3. They are a mercy to the ummah as a source of guidance.

4. They make dua to Allah to give rizq to His creation, and their duas are absolutely accepted.

5. When they desire something, Allah grants it to them because they only desire for the benefit of the religion (i.e. Allah enabling Amir ul-Mumineen to singlehandedly lift the door during the Battle of Khaybar).

This narration sums it up pretty well:

Let's apply this to a case. You may have seen the video of Sayyid Muhammad Ridha Shirazi (qas) that the nawasib ripped apart because he said something to the extent of, "If the Imams say 'be', then it is." If you understand Wilayat al-Takwiniya, then there's nothing wrong with the statement. It just means that the Imams make dua for what they desire and we only expect them to desire what is beneficial for the deen, and Allah grants it because of His love for them.

Salam brother,

I do not think this is the case. The Quran tells us of Noah wanting his son to be saved - right? But his son is not saved and dies in the flood. Imams Dua's are not 'absolutely' allowed. Read the Dua's in Ramadhan. The imams prayed to Allah swt to clothe every sick person, ect. Not all sick people are clothed or have adequate food or shelter.

So how does this add up?

Ahsant

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That's because sheikh sadooq was a BIG muqassar!

Be careful about what you say, you jahil. Sheikh Al-Sedooq (ra) is one of our greatest scholars.

And FYI, I also believe that the Prophets/Imams (as) can forget, and I also reject Al-Wilayat Al-Takweenia, a corrupt belief that many ignorant Shi'ahs like you, believe in.

Any belief attributed to al-Saduq must be proved through a reliable reference, until then they are considered void in any discussion.

Sheikh Al-Sedooq says:

The Ghulat and the Muwaffidha, May Allah curse them, reject the forgetfulness of the Prophet, (pbuh)

http://www.mezan.net...aqih-1/a51.html

He also says:

And I hope to get ajir (reward) for compiling this book which proves that the Prophet (pbuh) could forget, and refutes those who reject it.

Man La Yahdharuhu Al-Faqee, Volume 1, Page 360

Edited by Naruto

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Salam brother,

I do not think this is the case. The Quran tells us of Noah wanting his son to be saved - right? But his son is not saved and dies in the flood. Imams Dua's are not 'absolutely' allowed. Read the Dua's in Ramadhan. The imams prayed to Allah swt to clothe every sick person, ect. Not all sick people are clothed or have adequate food or shelter.

So how does this add up?

Ahsant

And Abraham prays for God to forgive Sodom and Gomorrah, but God rejects his prayer.

Or the Imams are something different?

Edited by Robin Hood

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Imams,(as) are definitely different from Moses,(as), and Abraham,(as) as none of them are entitled to verse of purification. And when Allah purified them it was from every sort of sin, and error, and forgetfulness is something that can make someone err, and subsequently sinned.

Those who are claiming so vehemently that Sh.Sadooq believed in forgetfulness should also know that his own student Sh.Mufeed rejected this notion by calling it a taqseer, Sh Mufeed is also one of the biggest giant of our school of thought, its not only Sh Sadooq, we have as an alim, and his every view is not supposed to be final word. Its ironical you people believe Rasool,(saww), and Aimma,(as) can have sahw ,but not Sh Sadooq? Funny btw. Sh. Sadooq could err in his approach, not Masoomeen,(as). Sh Sadooq also believed that Aimma,(as) will take account from us on doomsday, but if anyone of us would say so, you people would call it ghuluw, what about him then?

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Salam brother,

I do not think this is the case. The Quran tells us of Noah wanting his son to be saved - right? But his son is not saved and dies in the flood. Imams Dua's are not 'absolutely' allowed. Read the Dua's in Ramadhan. The imams prayed to Allah swt to clothe every sick person, ect. Not all sick people are clothed or have adequate food or shelter.

So how does this add up?

Ahsant

You're making elementary mistakes. Reread what I wrote and maybe you'll figure it out.

Imams, (as) are definitely different from Moses, (as), and Abraham, (as) as none of them are entitled to verse of purification. And when Allah purified them it was from every sort of sin, and error, and forgetfulness is something that can make someone err, and subsequently sinned.

Those who are claiming so vehemently that Sh.Sadooq believed in forgetfulness should also know that his own student Sh.Mufeed rejected this notion by calling it a taqseer, Sh Mufeed is also one of the biggest giant of our school of thought, its not only Sh Sadooq, we have as an alim, and his every view is not supposed to be final word. Its ironical you people believe Rasool,(saww), and Aimma, (as) can have sahw ,but not Sh Sadooq? Funny btw. Sh. Sadooq could err in his approach, not Masoomeen, (as). Sh Sadooq also believed that Aimma, (as) will take account from us on doomsday, but if anyone of us would say so, you people would call it ghuluw, what about him then?

ARE YOU SERIOUS!?! Every messenger, prophet and imam has ismah and is pure in the same way that the Ahl al-Bayt (as) are pure. Don't tell me... You believe that Yunus (as) was imprisoned in the belly of the whale because he refused to testify to the wilayat of Amir ul-Mumineen (as)!!!

Edited by al-Irshad

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Be careful about what you say, you jahil. Sheikh Al-Sedooq (ra) is one of our greatest scholars.

And FYI, I also believe that the Prophets/Imams (as) can forget, and I also reject Al-Wilayat Al-Takweenia, a corrupt belief that many ignorant Shi'ahs like you, believe in.

Sheikh Al-Sedooq says:

The Ghulat and the Muwaffidha, May Allah curse them, reject the forgetfulness of the Prophet, (pbuh)

http://www.mezan.net...aqih-1/a51.html

He also says:

And I hope to get ajir (reward) for compiling this book which proves that the Prophet (pbuh) could forget, and refutes those who reject it.

Man La Yahdharuhu Al-Faqee, Volume 1, Page 360

Buddy it wasn't sheikh sadooq's belief. Read all hidaya and he says masoomenn do not forget. And this belief is attributed to his teacher al waleed. Don't get too carried away by misquotations sheik wouldn't be happy in his grave.

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Buddy it wasn't sheikh sadooq's belief. Read all hidaya and he says masoomenn do not forget. And this belief is attributed to his teacher al waleed. Don't get too carried away by misquotations sheik wouldn't be happy in his grave.

Brother, I'm not misquoting him. For the first quote, it says, :

قال مصنف هذا الكتاب

Which means: "The compiler of this book said"

That's obviously Sheikh Al-Sedooq,

As for the second quote, I'm not exactly sure, it could either be Al-Sedooq, or his Sheikh.

(wasalam)

Edited by Naruto

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Aslamalaykum,

@al-Irshaad

Every messenger, prophet and imam has ismah and is pure in the same way that the Ahl al-Bayt (as) are pure.

Not really! The Ahlul Bayt a.s ismah is at sublime level, more higher than all previous Prophets/Messengers. The greater the responsibility, more of a protection from Allah swt.

Tell me something, from your understanding/research, does doubt come under the category of forgetfulness?

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