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Rational Thinking

Why Didn't Allah Swt Stop The Holacaust?

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Somethings you might say:

"he does not interfere with mans own evil choices"

This is not true exactly, as God himself tells us in the Quran that he saved the children of israel against pharaoh. There were probably in their thousands there, and not the millions of jews there were during the holocaust.

So why allow people to be amputated alive in Nazi doctor camps, be starved to death, beaten , raped, gased in chambers, tortured alive, sometimes baked alive, babies thrown out of windows ? for for a few days, but for a long on-going period of persecution.

Why ? (I genuinely want an answer. I am not complaining about evil and suffering, but why does God save one group and not the other ?).

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Somethings you might say:

"he does not interfere with mans own evil choices"

This is not true exactly, as God himself tells us in the Quran that he saved the children of israel against pharaoh. There were probably in their thousands there, and not the millions of jews there were during the holocaust.

So why allow people to be amputated alive in Nazi doctor camps, be starved to death, beaten , raped, gased in chambers, tortured alive, sometimes baked alive, babies thrown out of windows ? for for a few days, but for a long on-going period of persecution.

Why ? (I genuinely want an answer. I am not complaining about evil and suffering, but why does God save one group and not the other ?).

GOD has plans for evryone. At the time when Bani Israel was saved from Pharoah, clashes between religions did not exist. After that christianity & Islam came into existence. Wars between religions started. If we observe life carefully we may see that Allah swt has increased man's authority as time passed. The invention of Weapons of mass destruction, decrease in travelling time & much more. A small number of muslims were victorious in the battle of Badr by the virtue of Allah swt & today we see that millions of muslims are oppressed by a small number of jews.. ever thought why?? The authority of one human being over another.

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GOD has plans for evryone. At the time when Bani Israel was saved from Pharoah, clashes between religions did not exist. After that christianity & Islam came into existence. Wars between religions started. If we observe life carefully we may see that Allah swt has increased man's authority as time passed. The invention of Weapons of mass destruction, decrease in travelling time & much more. A small number of muslims were victorious in the battle of Badr by the virtue of Allah swt & today we see that millions of muslims are oppressed by a small number of jews.. ever thought why?? The authority of one human being over another.

So God planned the holacaust, stalins murder, the small pox, the black death, hiroshima ect? Do you wish to say these were all 'planned' or that they were 'allowed'. How am i supposed to think the massacre of people , the live amputations of kids by Nazi doctors were all part of a "neat" plan?

Do you see where i am coming from?

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(salam)

Whether we wonder or not, as revealed, He(swt) looks forward to the Last Day.

Besides, If you are going to die does it make much of a difference if it is by gas or by cancer?

Oh, and do not think I in anyway excuse a g__ d___ nazi. french facist, southern or eastern european socialists.

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Well, one reason he saved them because he wanted us to take a lesson from it, but guess what? humans failed again. Therefore, Allah didnt interfere or maybe he did, "And they planned and Allah (also) planned, and Allah is the best of planners.". Bro dont just look at one event and question God, He knows best. He is the absolute Just.

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Well, one reason he saved them because he wanted us to take a lesson from it, but guess what? humans failed again. Therefore, Allah didnt interfere or maybe he did, "And they planned and Allah (also) planned, and Allah is the best of planners.". Bro dont just look at one event and question God, He knows best. He is the absolute Just.

What about Stalins masaccre, the polish massacre, the black death, small pox?

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Let me guess, you saw this question in an atheist forum? Because atheists talk a lot about why God didn't prevent the Holocaust.

No. I asked this question to myself when i heard of the holacaust. You don't need to be an atheist to make such a common sense question.

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According to Quranic and Islamic tradition, God governs the universe in two ways;

1) Amr (kon fa yakoon) - This is when God says "be" and it is. This is the time when we say it happening, we call it miracles. A lot of bibilical references that are validated by Quran come from God's Amr.

2) Khalgh - This refers to creation of Allah (swt). Its the laws that govern the universe including the metaphorical laws like what people call Karma.

Now wether what happened to Jews was Amr or Khalgh, only Allah knows better but below Ayas could shed some light.:Sura Al-Israel 17:4-8.

Allahu Aalam

Edited by faithfuls.org

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It's not like Allah didn't help the Jews, they were just ungrateful...

Holocaust - exaggerated! Either way, Allah decides how people go, I don't condone what happened to innocent Jews though.

How about the the Shias that Sadam killed, tortured, burned?! These answers are with Allah and Allah alone.

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This is not true exactly, as God himself tells us in the Quran that he saved the children of israel against pharaoh. There were probably in their thousands...

There is a subtle hint of difference you need to be aware of.

If you're going to have freewill, negative output is always going to be a side effect of it.

Allah didn't intervene in the affair of the Pharaoh by tying his hands behind his back. He was left free to transgress. He freely chose to reject the miracle of the Nile that confronted his very own eyes, arrogantly and stubbornly choosing his own destiny; to enter the split sea and chase the Israelites. The water then closed in on him and his soldiers, and he became a sign for those to see the inevitable outcome of haughtiness, ego and arrogance. The event had a purpose.

The main point here is that Allah didn't infringe on the freewill of Pharaoh. To be consistent, noone can have their freewill stripped away from them, not even the tyrants of the world. They will receive their comeuppance in a different way.

The story of life encompasses a variety of individual paths and journeys. It is not the same. But the principles remain the same, always.

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Somethings you might say:

"he does not interfere with mans own evil choices"

This is not true exactly, as God himself tells us in the Quran that he saved the children of israel against pharaoh. There were probably in their thousands there, and not the millions of jews there were during the holocaust.

So why allow people to be amputated alive in Nazi doctor camps, be starved to death, beaten , raped, gased in chambers, tortured alive, sometimes baked alive, babies thrown out of windows ? for for a few days, but for a long on-going period of persecution.

Why ? (I genuinely want an answer. I am not complaining about evil and suffering, but why does God save one group and not the other ?).

Hitler did ultimately kill himself if I am not mistaken. Now, in this day in age, much of the modern world is aware of the atrocities, and in many cases, fight to prevent it from happening again.

With that, perhaps Allah has stepped in, in creating what is now a more modern world, more aware of what inhumane actions are.

Edited by iDevonian

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According to Quranic and Islamic tradition, God governs the universe in two ways;

1) Amr (kon fa yakoon) - This is when God says "be" and it is. This is the time when we say it happening, we call it miracles. A lot of bibilical references that are validated by Quran come from God's Amr.

2) Khalgh - This refers to creation of Allah (swt). Its the laws that govern the universe including the metaphorical laws like what people call Karma.

Now wether what happened to Jews was Amr or Khalgh, only Allah knows better but below Ayas could shed some light.:Sura Al-Israel 17:4-8.

Allahu Aalam

I don't think 17:4-8 refers to the Holocaust because the ayats are talking about a masjid who got destroyed 2 times.

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I don't think 17:4-8 refers to the Holocaust because the ayats are talking about a masjid who got destroyed 2 times.

I didn't say it was. I believe you may have missed my point probably due to my poor and quick reply. If you read my post again you will see I was trying to explain that how and why things happen. Sometimes God does it, like rewards, punishes, tests people, and sometimes, people do it to themselves because following the laws of universes, whatever good you do, you shall do to yourself.

For example what is happening to Muslims today, why isn't God stopping it? After all they are the Ummah of Muhammad (pbuh). But reading our history, what happened to Ahlulbayt (as) and Imam Hossein (as), then one could come up with conclusion that Ummah took the wrong direction hence it is running into all sort of hardship.

I hope my point is a bit clearer. If not let me I will elaborate more.

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Idevonion

That was a the best reply i have heard on this topic. However, it does not answer the mass atrocities commited throughout history.

Perhaps God wanted to establish islam and thus saved them then ?

Frankly i do not buy into 'everything that happens is part of Gods special plan'.

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Idevonion

That was a the best reply i have heard on this topic. However, it does not answer the mass atrocities commited throughout history.

Perhaps God wanted to establish islam and thus saved them then ?

Frankly i do not buy into 'everything that happens is part of Gods special plan'.

Thanks

I believe that, life is much like ideas that come up with relation to truth. In that, two ideas or two people or two organizations etc. in life can conflict with eachother, but ultimately truth will win over what is false, the righteous will win over the wrong doers etc.

Asking why mass atrocities occur, sounds like you are more interested in the problem of evil.

Maybe God saved the Israelites because they were genuinely good people who deserved savior from abusive egyptions.

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Just saying, Allah swt religion in Musas as time was Judaism, and when Hitler killed the jews the religion of Allah swt was islam, so it is not the difference, but of course, Allah swt is Al Rahman!

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The Holocaust did happen.

It may have happened but holodomor was worser still.

As well, the jews presented similar death figures for their dead in WW1

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/tfh/3.html

"As soon as the World War [One] started and it was obvious that a large part of the War would be fought in the zone in which six or seven million Jews lived, particularly Poland, Russia and Galicia, many worthy people started organizations to collect funds for the sufferers in the War zones."

How convenient is it to use the same figure for ww2.

http://www.nizkor.or...locaust-01.html

The FIRST alleged "Holocaust of Six Million Jews at the hands of the Germans" has been forgotten, but the SECOND alleged "Holocaust of Six Million Jews at the hands of the Germans" is today a highly-promoted OFFICIAL TRUTH

American-Hebrew-October-31-1919-The-Crucifixion-Of-Jews-Must-Stop-Martin-H-Glynn-Six-Million.jpg

Issue Date : 1919

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=140834

Edited by Bani Qaiser

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Allah gave you free will and now you are complaining He gave it to you and allows us all to deal with the consequences of our actions? If Allah stopped us doing things all the time it would mean He is preventing us from utilising the gift of free will He gave us. We need to stop wanting to picture this world as a perfect little piece of paradise, because its not. The world is a sad, cruel and tough place, and that's the way it was created. We have been given the opportunity to deal with the creation around us in a pleasant manner, its not God's fault a few rascals mess up. He gave us all a chance to prove our worth. Even the worst of creation, the evil criminals who do the worst and go to the lowest of the lows were given a chance by God. 'I wish I could ask God why He allows so many bad things to take place in the world when He could do something about? But I am afraid He may ask me the same question.'

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Hmm what about tsunami's, small pox, cancer, ilnesses, earthquakes, meteors - most are not in our hands...

more people die of these. Considerably more.

Perhaps when God says he is 'good' or 'fair'

he means by his definitions

thus, 'good' loses its meaning as does 'fair' perhaps?

Allah gave you free will and now you are complaining He gave it to you and allows us all to deal with the consequences of our actions? If Allah stopped us doing things all the time it would mean He is preventing us from utilising the gift of free will He gave us. We need to stop wanting to picture this world as a perfect little piece of paradise, because its not. The world is a sad, cruel and tough place, and that's the way it was created. We have been given the opportunity to deal with the creation around us in a pleasant manner, its not God's fault a few rascals mess up. He gave us all a chance to prove our worth. Even the worst of creation, the evil criminals who do the worst and go to the lowest of the lows were given a chance by God. 'I wish I could ask God why He allows so many bad things to take place in the world when He could do something about? But I am afraid He may ask me the same question.'

Why did he save the children of israel from Pharoh? I.E why does he pick and choose who to save. Good answer though.

Edited by Rational Thinking

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God has no plan for everyone. That defeats the point of our own free will to choose our own paths.

Assalaamualaikum

Interesting point of view. I suppose I believe more in a balance between the idea of pre-determined destiny and free will.

As Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s) said "Neither determinism nor free will; the truth of the matter lies between these two"

Now I am not denying that man has the ability to perform an act of his choice. But I don't see why that negates the existence of God's plan.

A man once approached Imam Ja'far Sadiq (a.s) and asked him to help him with understanding the concept of freewill and predestination. Imam Jafar (a.s) asked him to lift one foot off the ground and the man did as he was asked. The Imam then asked him to lift his second foot of the ground, to which he replied "I can't"

Imam Jafar (a.s) said, "Your first move represents freewill, and your second, predestination"

I don't think we are fixed to our destinies but neither do I believe we have ultimate control over our fate. As the popular saying goes, man proposes, God disposes, there is some element of our life that is planned out according to Allah's wishes. The term in Islamic philosophy to describe this 'middle path' is 'amr bainal amrain'

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Hmm what about tsunami's, small pox, cancer, ilnesses, earthquakes, meteors - most are not in our hands...

more people die of these. Considerably more.

Perhaps when God says he is 'good' or 'fair'

he means by his definitions

thus, 'good' loses its meaning as does 'fair' perhaps?

Why did he save the children of israel from Pharoh? I.E why does he pick and choose who to save. Good answer though.

Did God save the imams and prophets? Stop trying to find faults in Allah's plan. God doesnt pick and choose. The Pharaoh doomed himself that resulted in the saving of the children.

God has no plan for everyone. That defeats the point of our own free will to choose our own paths.

If God doesnt have a plan for everyone then why did he predetermine our existence, gravity, earth, intelligence? Adam suppose to eat from the tree so we could end up on earth. Just because God is all knowing doesnt mean we cant make our own choices. Atheists confuse this idea too. To know something and to act to change it are two different things. Remember God is out of time matter and space. I can know that you will get sick if your not wearing a coat, but its up to you to change and wear one.

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Somethings you might say:

"he does not interfere with mans own evil choices"

This is not true exactly, as God himself tells us in the Quran that he saved the children of israel against pharaoh. There were probably in their thousands there, and not the millions of jews there were during the holocaust.

So why allow people to be amputated alive in Nazi doctor camps, be starved to death, beaten , raped, gased in chambers, tortured alive, sometimes baked alive, babies thrown out of windows ? for for a few days, but for a long on-going period of persecution.

Why ? (I genuinely want an answer. I am not complaining about evil and suffering, but why does God save one group and not the other ?).

The answer is free will.

If God stops us every time something bad happens, then we would have no free will. This world is a test, imagine if a professor gives all of his students a test in which they cannot fail. The test would be meaningless and would have no merit. As for why he saved Bani Israel in one instance and didn't save the people who died in the holocaust (who included others besides Jews) I cannot say. Only Allah knows.

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i really want to know the answer to this..... like these days the people being slaughtered in syria etc... in regards to the sufferings happening out there, do we say its mankind's deeds? But Allah (swt) can intervene... i dunno I really want to knw the answer.

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