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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why Didn't Allah Swt Stop The Holacaust?

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Assalaamualaikum

Interesting point of view. I suppose I believe more in a balance between the idea of pre-determined destiny and free will.

As Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s) said "Neither determinism nor free will; the truth of the matter lies between these two"

Now I am not denying that man has the ability to perform an act of his choice. But I don't see why that negates the existence of God's plan.

A man once approached Imam Ja'far Sadiq (a.s) and asked him to help him with understanding the concept of freewill and predestination. Imam Jafar (a.s) asked him to lift one foot off the ground and the man did as he was asked. The Imam then asked him to lift his second foot of the ground, to which he replied "I can't"

Imam Jafar (a.s) said, "Your first move represents freewill, and your second, predestination"

I don't think we are fixed to our destinies but neither do I believe we have ultimate control over our fate. As the popular saying goes, man proposes, God disposes, there is some element of our life that is planned out according to Allah's wishes. The term in Islamic philosophy to describe this 'middle path' is 'amr bainal amrain'

I see what you say, but if i stand in a chamber with no gravity, i can lift both legs up in the air. Eitherway, you are describing a scientific impossibility on earth (in the leg analogy, i have heard Mawlana's use a lot).

My point is that everyone has their own independent free will. There are so many choices being made, so many premutations of what could happen. Someone can randomly decide to shoot you, and you can randomly albeit accidently decide to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It's just a random occurence, not any kind of "plan".

I see kids rotting in africa after being malnourished, kids who have HIV, people dying from random tsunami's in muslim countries and other countries impoverished by society.

I do not blame God, i just say it's random. No-one has any special plan for anyone else.

God can interfere, but no-one can put together an argument that makes that plausible given the contextual history and nature of humanity.

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I see what you say, but if i stand in a chamber with no gravity, i can lift both legs up in the air. Eitherway, you are describing a scientific impossibility on earth (in the leg analogy, i have heard Mawlana's use a lot).

My point is that everyone has their own independent free will. There are so many choices being made, so many premutations of what could happen. Someone can randomly decide to shoot you, and you can randomly albeit accidently decide to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It's just a random occurence, not any kind of "plan".

I see kids rotting in africa after being malnourished, kids who have HIV, people dying from random tsunami's in muslim countries and other countries impoverished by society.

I do not blame God, i just say it's random. No-one has any special plan for anyone else.

God can interfere, but no-one can put together an argument that makes that plausible given the contextual history and nature of humanity.

“There falls not a leaf but He knows it, nor a grain in the darkness of the Earth, nor anything green nor withered but it is all in a clear book.” [Sūrah al-An`ām: 59]

http://en.islamtoday.net/artshow-429-3946.htm

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“There falls not a leaf but He knows it, nor a grain in the darkness of the Earth, nor anything green nor withered but it is all in a clear book.” [Sūrah al-An`ām: 59]

http://en.islamtoday...ow-429-3946.htm

Mashallah. Perhaps the issue indeed is complex. I was aware of this verse, but thanks for bringing it here.

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I see what you say, but if i stand in a chamber with no gravity, i can lift both legs up in the air. Eitherway, you are describing a scientific impossibility on earth (in the leg analogy, i have heard Mawlana's use a lot).

My point is that everyone has their own independent free will. There are so many choices being made, so many premutations of what could happen. Someone can randomly decide to shoot you, and you can randomly albeit accidently decide to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It's just a random occurence, not any kind of "plan".

I see kids rotting in africa after being malnourished, kids who have HIV, people dying from random tsunami's in muslim countries and other countries impoverished by society.

I do not blame God, i just say it's random. No-one has any special plan for anyone else.

God can interfere, but no-one can put together an argument that makes that plausible given the contextual history and nature of humanity.

Doesn't it make us appreciate even more how much we have been blessed with? We can realize even more the great responsibility we have with what God has blessed us with. When God allows communities to be exterminated and when He allows for oppression and suffering to occur this should make us understand that we are not some sort of privileged creation such that we have the right to exist and enjoy. We really don't have any rights. All kinds of of ease and mercy we enjoy right now actually don't belong to us. So if we are tortured and killed this just goes to show our inherent weakness, nothingness, and distance from God who is Mercy as such.

"Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not." " Quran, 2:30

What does God know that the angels did not?

Edited by eThErEaL
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You're assuming God needs to interfere; why?

God has no obligation to interfere within the affairs of men, even in vices. If he does, he denies free will to that person committing the crime. Thus, on judgment day, Hitler would be questioned as to why he did this and that, and Hitler can argue that he didn't have complete free will. Without free will, there is no test.

And to those comparing the holocaust to the Pharaoh: remember, the Pharaoh DID persecute the children of Israel. God didn't stop him from starting the persecution, but he let Moses free them from the persecution. In the same way that the holocaust did happen, and a finite force (the allied forces) stopped it. Not to say that the allied forces are prophets in any way. Any man, be it Moses or Dr. Who has the capability to stop evil. Moses isn't God, he doesn't have infinite power, he had to struggle to stop the Pharaoh.

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Hmm what about tsunami's, small pox, cancer, ilnesses, earthquakes, meteors - most are not in our hands...

more people die of these. Considerably more.

Perhaps when God says he is 'good' or 'fair'

he means by his definitions

thus, 'good' loses its meaning as does 'fair' perhaps?

There are dangerous phenomena that come from nature rather than human actions, yes. We do have power, however to come up with ways to understand these phenomena, predict their occurrence in some cases, and take steps to avoid them or mitigate their harm. Japanese engineering advances show that an earthquake need not be so fatal, i.e. it need not bring down buildings. It can be argued that natural hazards serve as a challenge to push us toward scientific and technological advancement. This is one argument.

The other argument is that these are side effects of natural phenomena that are, in the larger sense of greater good, useful things. Earthquakes a side effect of the greater good of tectonic activity, cancer a result of genetic mutation, which is necessary for the greater good of evolution, etc.

Why did he save the children of israel from Pharoh? I.E why does he pick and choose who to save. Good answer though.

Why did prophethood and revelation end?

Why did the period of open imamate end?

The general trend has been to leave us to our own devices to learn how to manage ourselves or at least to give us the chance to make our own mistakes on our own to learn the benefit of more divine guidance, to appreciate it.

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. . . remember, the Pharaoh DID persecute the children of Israel. God didn't stop him from starting the persecution, but he let Moses free them from the persecution. In the same way that the holocaust did happen, and a finite force (the allied forces) stopped it. Not to say that the allied forces are prophets in any way. Any man, be it Moses or Dr. Who has the capability to stop evil. Moses isn't God, he doesn't have infinite power, he had to struggle to stop the Pharaoh.

My God !! . . . . the children of bani Israel of old scripture are not the jews, are not the Israelis ! These were Muslims living by Millah religious Father Abraham, whereas jewish people are damned by the Will of Divine Providence as having been people and families of people and descendants of people who had ever rejected God and message to man and expressly of old to children of bani Israel more so at first than to any others by God. There is a BIG difference. A hugh, tremendous difference between the two peoples: the God Condemned jewish people who had died and suffered infamy in this world of nineteen thirtys Europe and the next and the people of Joseph and his brothers ! !

Please do not try to defend the jewish race. They are defended only by sinners.

oh, . .

. . . and probably will be by this mutk king individual above posting as well, I would imagine.

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This is not true exactly, as God himself tells us in the Quran that he saved the children of israel against pharaoh. There were probably in their thousands there, and not the millions of jews there were during the holocaust.

So why allow people to be amputated alive in Nazi doctor camps, be starved to death, beaten , raped, gased in chambers, tortured alive, sometimes baked alive, babies thrown out of windows ? for for a few days, but for a long on-going period of persecution.

My layperson's explanation would be that the evil is a consequence of the expression of freewill, God's saving people on some occasions is a consequence of his mercy but if the latter were to extend to all times and places there would be no scope for freewill at all.

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There are dangerous phenomena that come from nature rather than human actions, yes. We do have power, however to come up with ways to understand these phenomena, predict their occurrence in some cases, and take steps to avoid them or mitigate their harm. Japanese engineering advances show that an earthquake need not be so fatal, i.e. it need not bring down buildings. It can be argued that natural hazards serve as a challenge to push us toward scientific and technological advancement. This is one argument.

The other argument is that these are side effects of natural phenomena that are, in the larger sense of greater good, useful things. Earthquakes a side effect of the greater good of tectonic activity, cancer a result of genetic mutation, which is necessary for the greater good of evolution, etc.

What is the "greater good" of a meteor impacting earth and utterly destroying the environment and its inhabitants? Nothing.

If God created the world for human life, then He would have catered for it sufficiently, without defects. It isn't fair that a populace in an undeveloped country be at a disadvantage to a developed country in regards to preventive measure for life threatening natural phenomena.

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That is an interesting view that Khadim stated.

Now, we could say that something like the k-t impact did indeed bring about a "greater good". Without the massive asteroid impact, we arguably wouldnt be here having this conversation today.

So I disagree with the initial statement by rorshach.

However, the view point that, these natural disasters exist to benefit us, still bypasses the fact that, if Allah had wished it, there is a potential for us to be able to evolve technologically and physically, without needing to be harmed in the process. The idea that these asteroids help us (which they sort of do), seems to assume that, there could be no other way for us to be helped, that wouldnt involve mass murder.

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I will say this though, I think that, people, if you look at the history of life on this planet, it is quite clear that Allah has not made the planet for "people", as in specifically for us and only us in the form of humanity that we are in now, and only now.

The earth and life has been around for billions of years, and will likely be here for billions more, after people are gone and other life comes to dominate. We have only been around, as humans for...essentially a blink of time, and in another blink, history shows us that we will be no more.

Not to say we will go extinct, but we will inevitably continue to evolve into non humans.

The form that life holds now, as people, its just like a temporary state. The dinosaurs were a temporary state, reptilian mammals were a temporary state, reptilian birds, bird like reptiles, initial amphibians etc.

Life, it has been around for a long time and it consistently changes, continously. We, humanity are just one step, in a long walk of life.

This planet, is not for "people" or for "mankind". If you want to believe it is for anything, it is for life as a whole. If that.

I think that, if people do not believe this yet, they will certainly come to inevitably learn the truth about themselves, in time. Most people dont believe in evolution, or dont understand, or arent educated to see this though. They will find out though, sooner or later.

Edited by iDevonian
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What is the "greater good" of a meteor impacting earth and utterly destroying the environment and its inhabitants? Nothing.

I think you kind of missed the point. I don't have to explain some benefits to each and every meteor, and that's not the argument anyway. Enough that the phenomenon of meteor impacts in general, or the physical phenomena from which they result are useful. And meteor impacts have been useful. Certain timely impacts led the way to our rise as a species, as iDevonian mentioned. Also, the materials left over from certain large impact sites have led to insights into the composition of meteors, which gives us insight into the composition and formation of our solar system. We have gained a lot of scientific knowledge from this phenomenon in general. Therefore we can't complain about a single isolated example of the phenomenon.

If God created the world for human life, then He would have catered for it sufficiently, without defects. It isn't fair that a populace in an undeveloped country be at a disadvantage to a developed country in regards to preventive measure for life threatening natural phenomena.

He did cater for it sufficiently. The ability to gain knowledge is in every human. The knowledge has been discovered, it exists. That the technology is not universally distributed amongst nations is a failure of human politics and ethics. Again, free will.

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I think you kind of missed the point. I don't have to explain some benefits to each and every meteor, and that's not the argument anyway. Enough that the phenomenon of meteor impacts in general, or the physical phenomena from which they result are useful. And meteor impacts have been useful. Certain timely impacts led the way to our rise as a species, as iDevonian mentioned. Also, the materials left over from certain large impact sites have led to insights into the composition of meteors, which gives us insight into the composition and formation of our solar system. We have gained a lot of scientific knowledge from this phenomenon in general. Therefore we can't complain about a single isolated example of the phenomenon.

The point I'm trying to get across is, to suppose God purposefully created the universe is to by extension accept that natural disasters are part of that creation. And to also by extension accept that it didn't need to be this way. God could have made a world fit for life just as bountiful and diverse without the sometimes catastrophic machinery of a standard planet. God allegedly has full control over the very laws of physics. And not just control, but actually designed them thus and put them into play. The parameters of the system total, the properties of the constitutive elements, the way these elements interact and react - all of it could have been any way this God pleases.

Evidently, this universe is not designed with life in mind, since it is almost 100% hostile to life as we know it. If we are to assume this is designed, as the theist would have us assume, then what the hell is it designed for? As a black hole production system? It's more likely geared for that purpose than for life.

He did cater for it sufficiently. The ability to gain knowledge is in every human. The knowledge has been discovered, it exists. That the technology is not universally distributed amongst nations is a failure of human politics and ethics. Again, free will.

That's master class in evasion and blame shifting. The irony is, you're mounting up more problems for the theist.

Just think. If God doesn't exist, this world with all its suffering as a result of natural disasters is just a neutral, indifferent landscape where we happened to evolve and where we must learn to adapt if we wish to survive long term. The onus is on us to roll our sleeves up, muck in, and try make it a better world, if not for ourselves then for our posterity.

If the grand architect of the universe, God, does exist, this world is a sadistic rat maze or testing ground and God is like a spiteful kid pulling the legs off of bugs and watching them suffer just because he can. Our existence is inconsequential to the future of the world, or the future of humanity, and is a mere inconvenience before the afterlife.

It looks exactly as it would if no God existed.

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The point I'm trying to get across is, to suppose God purposefully created the universe is to by extension accept that natural disasters are part of that creation. And to also by extension accept that it didn't need to be this way. God could have made a world fit for life just as bountiful and diverse without the sometimes catastrophic machinery of a standard planet.

If you really think you can do better, by all means, proceed.

Edited by kadhim
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And meteor impacts have been useful. Certain timely impacts led the way to our rise as a species, as iDevonian mentioned.

Wonderful. After our species rose, the theist God could have then strengthened the thermosphere enough that all meteoroids burn up. Why would He allow the big ones to randomly impact a world and its inhabitants he designed with purpose? What purpose does cosmic dust serve in the grand plan? Nothing.

If you really think you can do better, by all means, proceed.

I'm not the mighty creator. If I was, I wouldn't do a half-assed job. I wouldn't design a system that results in unwarranted harm.

Edited by Rorschach
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The atmosphere is the way it is mainly because of Earth's gravitational pull,

is this to suggest that God cannot change the laws of physics that He made?

The adults are trying to have a conversation. Can you please leave the non-sequitur trolling out of it? He could muck around all the time switching things up, catching meteors with magic God hands in space. He could do all these sorts of things. He doesn't seem to operate this way though. He seems to run things through a regular natural order that he leaves to unfold according to set, predictable, knowable rules. So your question is not pertinent.

I'm not the mighty creator. If I was, I wouldn't do a half-assed job. I wouldn't design a system that results in unwarranted harm.

And how exactly would you do that? Make humans physically indestructible? How would you do that? How would you build a consistent universe that allows such a thing?

Edited by kadhim
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The adults are trying to have a conversation. Can you please leave the non-sequitur trolling out of it?

I merely asked you to clarify your point as I didnt understand, in fact I was sort of on your side in this debate. Is there any reason for you to respond in such a way? As for my post if you knew anything about the atmosphere you would've understood what I said

Edited by LekShuBadak
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And how exactly would you do that? Make humans physically indestructible? How would you do that? How would you build a consistent universe that allows such a thing?

I'm flattered that you consider me, a frail, insignificant and limited being the one who originated the universe, but I'm actually not. The "ever infinite in every aspect" God is. Nothing prevents the God of theism to make a perfect universe without any side-effect, to the detriment of living organisms. He could have made a universe with an entirely different form of physics. Suns did not have to be balls of thermonuclear plasma that will eventually burn out. Planets did not have to be temporarily held by the gravity of suns on irregular orbits, inevitably either to be consumed by suns or drift away and be lost in the void. Moon-sized rocks did not have to be veering through the cosmos, potentially ending all life on a planet should it happen to collide. Elements, the way they link, combine, what they can potentially combine into, what they are repelled by, could be another way. The emergent phenomena of gravity, of impetus, cause and effect itself could be different. All vectors of physics, all dimensions, all relationships between constitutive parts of the universe, from the largest interstellar cluster to the smallest quark or smaller, could have been any way this god decided them to be. Fusion, accretion, temperature, liquidation, photosynthesis, chemistry, oxidation, combustion, radiation, metabolism, evolution, all these things and millions more, are entirely arbitrary products of God's whim in a theistic universe model. Basically, with all this supreme power, with all these tools and resources, with the ability to craft systems as big as the whole universe and everything within it, a system could be created that was ideal for biological life.

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Basically, with all this supreme power, with all these tools and resources, with the ability to craft systems as big as the whole universe and everything within it, a system could be created that was ideal for biological life.

There was. It's called "Earth."

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I merely asked you to clarify your point as I didnt understand, in fact I was sort of on your side in this debate. Is there any reason for you to respond in such a way? As for my post if you knew anything about the atmosphere you would've understood what I said

His knee jerk reaction was due to the fact that he lacks a response. He'll steal your question and add a "how" to it, pretending that you're an all omniscient being. As if that solves anything...

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I merely asked you to clarify your point as I didnt understand, in fact I was sort of on your side in this debate. Is there any reason for you to respond in such a way? As for my post if you knew anything about the atmosphere you would've understood what I said

I'm sorry, was there supposed to be an actual question? If so, please rephrase in a more effective way. As written, it just reads as some non-sequitur accusing me of limiting God's omnipotence.

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I'm sorry, was there supposed to be an actual question? If so, please rephrase in a more effective way. As written, it just reads as some non-sequitur accusing me of limiting God's omnipotence.

Yes brother, I'll clarify here. I just don't see a reason why Allah can't change the laws of physics that He created; for example change the way the atmosphere is to protect us from harms such as the UV rays of the sun, or even the odd meteorite that comes at unpredictable intervals.

Edited by LekShuBadak
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There was. It's called "Earth."

I'm talking about the effects of the universe in relation to the earth. If you want to talk about the earth itself, what about the germs, parasites and diseases that kill us? Extreme heat and cold? I think this is pointless. "It's just the way it is, deal with it."

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His knee jerk reaction was due to the fact that he lacks a response. He'll steal your question and add a "how" to it, pretending that you're an all omniscient being. As if that solves anything...

I'm still waiting for you to answer the question, by the way. Without resorting to some lazy hand-waving nonsense along the lines of "Well, if God is the omnipotent creator, He could just have made everything completely different," explain yourself. You claimed something very specific, that He could have "strengthened the thermosphere enough that all meteoroids burn up." So this is presupposing some universe that is generally the same, except that you, as some hypothetical alternate creator, tweaks some parameter to make things just a little bit better. So, please, elaborate, how you would alter the atmosphere to make it so that ALL meteors burn up, even the largest. Catch of course is, without destroying 100 other useful things as a side effect consequence. Let's play the thought experiment. It may be enlightening.

Yes brother, I'll clarify here. I just don't see a reason why Allah can't change the laws of physics that He created; for example change the way the atmosphere is to protect us from harms such as the UV rays of the sun, or even the odd meteorite that comes at unpredictable intervals.

He could have created things in some different way; the form of the creation was within his purview. He did put a protection from UV rays in in the form of ozone, by the way. And he did put in a protection from much of the space debris with the atmosphere. If you start trying to thought experiment about creating a universe where the earth would have an atmosphere that would protect against ANY meteor, you run into challenges, because you change one thing, it would have consequences elsewhere. Like, I don't know, suppose you made gravity stronger so that the earth would hold onto more atmospheric gases, thicker atmosphere, higher cross section, more protection, right?

Well, it would also make the earth orbit at a much closer radius, and then the temperature on earth might be like on Mercury or Venus. Would make like pretty hard. Not to mention the earth would just attract meteors much more strongly, accelerating them toward the earth at even higher speeds. Not to mention if gravity were much stronger, big stars wouldn't go supernova, so you wouldn't have a bunch of heavy element materials lying around to make terrestrial type planets in the first place. So you find if you try to tweak things to "fix the shortcomings" of our earth environment as some sort of "Sim Creator," you just ending up breaking something else, bringing into question whether one can really do better.

I mean, you can always just go full bore like Rorshach, and invoke complete creative freedom for God, and say it all could have been completely different. But that's kind of a cheat, because you're no longer talking about fixing this universe, but just making something completely different. I think if you have to invoke the cheat, it's kind of conceding the point about whether one could really improve on the design of this universe.

Edited by kadhim
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Or... how about we take a shortcut and ask the theistic wisdom behind the multitude of meteoroids that surround our planet; these pieces of rocky debris from other planets that formed due to quite an untidy process of explosive crashes. What is the point? Can't God sweep up the mess? How could it possibly affect the "balance and harmony" negatively?

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There is of course a fundamental difference in the perspective of the theist versus someone who is not.

The theist starts with the position that we could all have been nothing, not even a lump of clay, for eternity. Everything you get more than that is a bonus. The agnostic/atheistic position seems to be, "what we've got is ok(ish), but heck it could have been so much better".

In addition for the Muslim the belief is that this life is relatively short, any suffering etc. is relatively trivial in comparison for what could come next. This de-emphasises any material shortcomings in this life. Unsurprisingly, for people who believe that this life is the only shot they will ever have, material gains/losses in this life mean everything, literally.

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In addition for the Muslim the belief is that this life is relatively short, any suffering etc. is relatively trivial in comparison for what could come next. This de-emphasises any material shortcomings in this life. Unsurprisingly, for people who believe that this life is the only shot they will ever have, material gains/losses in this life mean everything, literally.

But, Haji, that's not what the discussion is about at all. It's that life is harmed because of the unmediated, unpredictable system that the theistic God built which is the underlying cause of dispute. For example, an asteroid impacts water bodies which causes rapid displacement of water and creates a series of waves. As the sea bed gets raised, the waves get increasingly higher and, ultimately, a tsunami is born that ravages everything before it, indiscriminately killing innocent human lives. An asteroid serves no purpose in the grand scheme of things, it's a mere accidental product of the gradual evolution of the universe. That's why it makes so much more sense to be a deist. A theistic notion of God is incomprehensible in light of this, because it would be such a huge anomaly in a theistic modelled perfect universe. Otherwise, you'd have to believe that God deliberately allowed this to happen to His own creation for no apparent reason. It would depict God as callous and ruthless.

Edited by Rorschach
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We could ask why Allah Swt didn't stop the blacks from being enslaved and oppressed in the US? We could ask why Allah Swt allowed the Ahl al Bayt (as) to be oppressed and murdered? We could ask why for millions of things, but the truth is that Allah Swt knows what we know not. We can't even fathom His Infinite Knowledge. Since we are on the subject of the holocaust, does anyone know why Ahmadinejad denies it ever happening? Just curious?

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