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Rational Thinking

Why Didn't Allah Swt Stop The Holacaust?

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The Holocaust did happen.

It may have happened but holodomor was worser still.

As well, the jews presented similar death figures for their dead in WW1

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/tfh/3.html

"As soon as the World War [One] started and it was obvious that a large part of the War would be fought in the zone in which six or seven million Jews lived, particularly Poland, Russia and Galicia, many worthy people started organizations to collect funds for the sufferers in the War zones."

How convenient is it to use the same figure for ww2.

http://www.nizkor.or...locaust-01.html

The FIRST alleged "Holocaust of Six Million Jews at the hands of the Germans" has been forgotten, but the SECOND alleged "Holocaust of Six Million Jews at the hands of the Germans" is today a highly-promoted OFFICIAL TRUTH

American-Hebrew-October-31-1919-The-Crucifixion-Of-Jews-Must-Stop-Martin-H-Glynn-Six-Million.jpg

Issue Date : 1919

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=140834

Edited by Bani Qaiser

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Allah gave you free will and now you are complaining He gave it to you and allows us all to deal with the consequences of our actions? If Allah stopped us doing things all the time it would mean He is preventing us from utilising the gift of free will He gave us. We need to stop wanting to picture this world as a perfect little piece of paradise, because its not. The world is a sad, cruel and tough place, and that's the way it was created. We have been given the opportunity to deal with the creation around us in a pleasant manner, its not God's fault a few rascals mess up. He gave us all a chance to prove our worth. Even the worst of creation, the evil criminals who do the worst and go to the lowest of the lows were given a chance by God. 'I wish I could ask God why He allows so many bad things to take place in the world when He could do something about? But I am afraid He may ask me the same question.'

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Hmm what about tsunami's, small pox, cancer, ilnesses, earthquakes, meteors - most are not in our hands...

more people die of these. Considerably more.

Perhaps when God says he is 'good' or 'fair'

he means by his definitions

thus, 'good' loses its meaning as does 'fair' perhaps?

Allah gave you free will and now you are complaining He gave it to you and allows us all to deal with the consequences of our actions? If Allah stopped us doing things all the time it would mean He is preventing us from utilising the gift of free will He gave us. We need to stop wanting to picture this world as a perfect little piece of paradise, because its not. The world is a sad, cruel and tough place, and that's the way it was created. We have been given the opportunity to deal with the creation around us in a pleasant manner, its not God's fault a few rascals mess up. He gave us all a chance to prove our worth. Even the worst of creation, the evil criminals who do the worst and go to the lowest of the lows were given a chance by God. 'I wish I could ask God why He allows so many bad things to take place in the world when He could do something about? But I am afraid He may ask me the same question.'

Why did he save the children of israel from Pharoh? I.E why does he pick and choose who to save. Good answer though.

Edited by Rational Thinking

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God has no plan for everyone. That defeats the point of our own free will to choose our own paths.

Assalaamualaikum

Interesting point of view. I suppose I believe more in a balance between the idea of pre-determined destiny and free will.

As Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s) said "Neither determinism nor free will; the truth of the matter lies between these two"

Now I am not denying that man has the ability to perform an act of his choice. But I don't see why that negates the existence of God's plan.

A man once approached Imam Ja'far Sadiq (a.s) and asked him to help him with understanding the concept of freewill and predestination. Imam Jafar (a.s) asked him to lift one foot off the ground and the man did as he was asked. The Imam then asked him to lift his second foot of the ground, to which he replied "I can't"

Imam Jafar (a.s) said, "Your first move represents freewill, and your second, predestination"

I don't think we are fixed to our destinies but neither do I believe we have ultimate control over our fate. As the popular saying goes, man proposes, God disposes, there is some element of our life that is planned out according to Allah's wishes. The term in Islamic philosophy to describe this 'middle path' is 'amr bainal amrain'

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Hmm what about tsunami's, small pox, cancer, ilnesses, earthquakes, meteors - most are not in our hands...

more people die of these. Considerably more.

Perhaps when God says he is 'good' or 'fair'

he means by his definitions

thus, 'good' loses its meaning as does 'fair' perhaps?

Why did he save the children of israel from Pharoh? I.E why does he pick and choose who to save. Good answer though.

Did God save the imams and prophets? Stop trying to find faults in Allah's plan. God doesnt pick and choose. The Pharaoh doomed himself that resulted in the saving of the children.

God has no plan for everyone. That defeats the point of our own free will to choose our own paths.

If God doesnt have a plan for everyone then why did he predetermine our existence, gravity, earth, intelligence? Adam suppose to eat from the tree so we could end up on earth. Just because God is all knowing doesnt mean we cant make our own choices. Atheists confuse this idea too. To know something and to act to change it are two different things. Remember God is out of time matter and space. I can know that you will get sick if your not wearing a coat, but its up to you to change and wear one.

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Somethings you might say:

"he does not interfere with mans own evil choices"

This is not true exactly, as God himself tells us in the Quran that he saved the children of israel against pharaoh. There were probably in their thousands there, and not the millions of jews there were during the holocaust.

So why allow people to be amputated alive in Nazi doctor camps, be starved to death, beaten , raped, gased in chambers, tortured alive, sometimes baked alive, babies thrown out of windows ? for for a few days, but for a long on-going period of persecution.

Why ? (I genuinely want an answer. I am not complaining about evil and suffering, but why does God save one group and not the other ?).

The answer is free will.

If God stops us every time something bad happens, then we would have no free will. This world is a test, imagine if a professor gives all of his students a test in which they cannot fail. The test would be meaningless and would have no merit. As for why he saved Bani Israel in one instance and didn't save the people who died in the holocaust (who included others besides Jews) I cannot say. Only Allah knows.

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i really want to know the answer to this..... like these days the people being slaughtered in syria etc... in regards to the sufferings happening out there, do we say its mankind's deeds? But Allah (swt) can intervene... i dunno I really want to knw the answer.

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Assalaamualaikum

Interesting point of view. I suppose I believe more in a balance between the idea of pre-determined destiny and free will.

As Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s) said "Neither determinism nor free will; the truth of the matter lies between these two"

Now I am not denying that man has the ability to perform an act of his choice. But I don't see why that negates the existence of God's plan.

A man once approached Imam Ja'far Sadiq (a.s) and asked him to help him with understanding the concept of freewill and predestination. Imam Jafar (a.s) asked him to lift one foot off the ground and the man did as he was asked. The Imam then asked him to lift his second foot of the ground, to which he replied "I can't"

Imam Jafar (a.s) said, "Your first move represents freewill, and your second, predestination"

I don't think we are fixed to our destinies but neither do I believe we have ultimate control over our fate. As the popular saying goes, man proposes, God disposes, there is some element of our life that is planned out according to Allah's wishes. The term in Islamic philosophy to describe this 'middle path' is 'amr bainal amrain'

I see what you say, but if i stand in a chamber with no gravity, i can lift both legs up in the air. Eitherway, you are describing a scientific impossibility on earth (in the leg analogy, i have heard Mawlana's use a lot).

My point is that everyone has their own independent free will. There are so many choices being made, so many premutations of what could happen. Someone can randomly decide to shoot you, and you can randomly albeit accidently decide to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It's just a random occurence, not any kind of "plan".

I see kids rotting in africa after being malnourished, kids who have HIV, people dying from random tsunami's in muslim countries and other countries impoverished by society.

I do not blame God, i just say it's random. No-one has any special plan for anyone else.

God can interfere, but no-one can put together an argument that makes that plausible given the contextual history and nature of humanity.

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I see what you say, but if i stand in a chamber with no gravity, i can lift both legs up in the air. Eitherway, you are describing a scientific impossibility on earth (in the leg analogy, i have heard Mawlana's use a lot).

My point is that everyone has their own independent free will. There are so many choices being made, so many premutations of what could happen. Someone can randomly decide to shoot you, and you can randomly albeit accidently decide to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It's just a random occurence, not any kind of "plan".

I see kids rotting in africa after being malnourished, kids who have HIV, people dying from random tsunami's in muslim countries and other countries impoverished by society.

I do not blame God, i just say it's random. No-one has any special plan for anyone else.

God can interfere, but no-one can put together an argument that makes that plausible given the contextual history and nature of humanity.

“There falls not a leaf but He knows it, nor a grain in the darkness of the Earth, nor anything green nor withered but it is all in a clear book.” [Sūrah al-An`ām: 59]

http://en.islamtoday.net/artshow-429-3946.htm

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“There falls not a leaf but He knows it, nor a grain in the darkness of the Earth, nor anything green nor withered but it is all in a clear book.” [Sūrah al-An`ām: 59]

http://en.islamtoday...ow-429-3946.htm

Mashallah. Perhaps the issue indeed is complex. I was aware of this verse, but thanks for bringing it here.

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I see what you say, but if i stand in a chamber with no gravity, i can lift both legs up in the air. Eitherway, you are describing a scientific impossibility on earth (in the leg analogy, i have heard Mawlana's use a lot).

My point is that everyone has their own independent free will. There are so many choices being made, so many premutations of what could happen. Someone can randomly decide to shoot you, and you can randomly albeit accidently decide to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It's just a random occurence, not any kind of "plan".

I see kids rotting in africa after being malnourished, kids who have HIV, people dying from random tsunami's in muslim countries and other countries impoverished by society.

I do not blame God, i just say it's random. No-one has any special plan for anyone else.

God can interfere, but no-one can put together an argument that makes that plausible given the contextual history and nature of humanity.

Doesn't it make us appreciate even more how much we have been blessed with? We can realize even more the great responsibility we have with what God has blessed us with. When God allows communities to be exterminated and when He allows for oppression and suffering to occur this should make us understand that we are not some sort of privileged creation such that we have the right to exist and enjoy. We really don't have any rights. All kinds of of ease and mercy we enjoy right now actually don't belong to us. So if we are tortured and killed this just goes to show our inherent weakness, nothingness, and distance from God who is Mercy as such.

"Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not." " Quran, 2:30

What does God know that the angels did not?

Edited by eThErEaL

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You're assuming God needs to interfere; why?

God has no obligation to interfere within the affairs of men, even in vices. If he does, he denies free will to that person committing the crime. Thus, on judgment day, Hitler would be questioned as to why he did this and that, and Hitler can argue that he didn't have complete free will. Without free will, there is no test.

And to those comparing the holocaust to the Pharaoh: remember, the Pharaoh DID persecute the children of Israel. God didn't stop him from starting the persecution, but he let Moses free them from the persecution. In the same way that the holocaust did happen, and a finite force (the allied forces) stopped it. Not to say that the allied forces are prophets in any way. Any man, be it Moses or Dr. Who has the capability to stop evil. Moses isn't God, he doesn't have infinite power, he had to struggle to stop the Pharaoh.

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