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In the Name of God بسم الله

How Much Knowledge To Recite On The Pulpit?

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  • Advanced Member

(salam)

Recently there has been much discussion about the rights of certain scholars to be on the pulpit and whether they are qualified and so forth- Especially in regards to the wrong thing being said in lectures. Please vote in the poll and answer the following questions:

1. How much formal knowledge in your opinion should a scholar have before he is allowed to recite on the pulpit? Would you trust a scholar who had studied In Hawza more than the one who self studied even if they studied the same books.

2. At what point does it become acceptable for a scholar to wear a turban (amama)?

Thank you

Also I just edited the post to make it anonymous. If it didn't work kindly inform me as I am new to this. Thank you.

Edited by *Sayyeda*
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1. I don't think somebody has to go to hawza in order to study the religion. I wouldn't necessarily trust someone who has gone through the hawza system over someone who studied on their own. Just because somebody has studied in hawza for 5-10 years doesn't mean they know what they're talking about.

2. I don't see wearing a turban as something a scholar must do. However, if they do put it on, they better be sure they know what they're talking about.

(wasalam)

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  • Advanced Member

I voted for self-study. As long as someone did a thorough research on a topic, put together his/her facts and could put up a decent talk, then I'm all for it.

Interestingly though so far its tied for self study and Doctrate/formal education

My problem is what to do if there is an alim who seeks to disunite people. What realistically can we do?

If one says something would it be gheebat (backbiting) or Nahi Anil Mukar (to forbid what is wrong)

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Interestingly though so far its tied for self study and Doctrate/formal education

My problem is what to do if there is an alim who seeks to disunite people. What realistically can we do?

If one says something would it be gheebat (backbiting) or Nahi Anil Mukar (to forbid what is wrong)

what do you mean disunite or spread fitna?

Don't give me names, give me what they do?

Thanks sister

edit: i'd look at a persons arguments, though degrees and hawza study would give validity and make me listen in the first place.

Edited by Rational Thinking
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  • Advanced Member

I don't think you need any kinda degree

But you must have some talent because of which you can benefit others like poetry or convincing power or communication skill but all with good knowledge of Islam.

So if both are knowledgeable but one is a self taught scholar and the other, a scholar who has attended a few years at Hawza, both should in an ideal world be respected equally with similar fees?

Edited by *Sayyeda*
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So if both are knowledgeable but one is a self taught scholar and the other, a scholar who has attended a few years at Hawza, both should in an ideal world be respected equally and their fees should be the same?

Tbh, any scholar should pass exams. Sure, self teach yourself but atleast have some formal proof you know what you are saying.

Any scholar can make things up, use weak/fake hadith, spread their own beliefs and not the most plausible ones

I say people just need to listen to them all and make their minds up. A dangerous society is one where we follow these scholars like sheep. They can't even agree what day Eid is.

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So if both are knowledgeable but one is a self taught scholar and the other, a scholar who has attended a few years at Hawza, both should in an ideal world be respected equally and their fees should be the same?

The alim who has given more benefit to the qaum gets more respect in the world and akhirah

I can show you plenty of Zakirs who has never been to any hawza but still are thousand time better then other hawza learned scholars because they have some unique skill, and it's nothing about money zikre Husain is not a business.

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Tbh, any scholar should pass exams. Sure, self teach yourself but atleast have some formal proof you know what you are saying....They can't even agree what day Eid is.

The exam idea is good but realistically could that even work?

You brought the Eid thing up again.. you're getting predictable Rational Thinking :P

The alim who has given more benefit to the qaum gets more respect in the world and akhirah

I can show you plenty of Zakirs who has never been to any hawza but still are thousand time better then other hawza learned scholars because they have some unique skill, and it's nothing about money zikre Husain is not a business.

Kindly could you post a few names of such Alims?

In an ideal world I agree with you and I was not calling it a business. After all a Scholar is extremely busy even when not commemorating the martyrdom of Imam Hussain (a.s) especially in Ramadan and Shabaan and deserves to make a livelihood as much as the lawyer and the accountant.

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The exam idea is good but realistically could that even work?

You brought the Eid thing up again.. you're getting predictable Rational Thinking :P

Kindly could you post a few names of such Alims?

In an ideal world I agree with you and I was not calling it a business. After all a Scholar is extremely busy even when not commemorating the martyrdom of Imam Hussain (a.s) especially in Ramadan and Shabaan and deserves to make a livelihood as much as the lawyer and the accountant.

Zakir Shaukat Raza Shaukat from Pakistan

Shaheed mohsin naqvi from Pakistan

Rehan azmi from Pakistan

Hameede jaffery from India

Shamshul Hasan from India

Zafar Abbas from India

I agree with you on money matter.

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  • Veteran Member

Everyone has a right to speak in the light of their own journey through knowledge. It is up to people/listeners to decide if they are good enough or not. I don't also set much store by turbans or the lack of it. it's all illusory. All that matter is the tongue, and what comes out of it.

Furthermore, knowledge of religion is not necessarily acquired in formal clerical educational institutes. Sometimes people who have come out of seminaries have known to speak utter nonsense, with all due respects, as I am witness to a few such instances.

Anyhow, the question that whether or not they should be allowed on pulpit needs to be rephrased. There is no central authority in Shi'ism to allow or disallow speakers from pulpit. They make their individual names independently by themselves. A certain Islamic centre management might not allow a certain speaker due to their ideological differences but then there would always be other Islamic centres that would welcome them.

If you personally feel the speaker is not up to the task then either you can ignore him and his congregations or speak out against him to inform the community as to why you think he's not good.

I have only skimmed the thread so I don't know of your concerns per se but that's my independent opinion on this issue.

...oh btw, I voted for 'self-study is sufficient.'

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  • Advanced Member

I usually consider one who KNOWS, as one who is wise. Otherwise I really can't say they are knowledgeable. Of course, there are different levels of knowing.

Yes...with so much uncertainty one needs to have some common sense not just the ability to retain and relay information, I have always thought that the one who thinks is the one who knows and is wise.

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It depends on your means. Generally speaking self study is sufficient, but the person should be intelligent and pious and not put together a 30 minute "Nade Haidari" fest. As long as there is substance, then its good. Most of the best English lectures are by non-mu'amimeen, for example, Khalil Jaffer, Hassanain, and Ammar Nakshawani. There are very few really good turbanned lecturers. The only one i can think of is Modaressi and even then a lot of what he says is controversial, like the whole 3000 people being killed by a single sweep of the sword in Ashura.

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  • Advanced Member

It depends on your means. Generally speaking self study is sufficient, but the person should be intelligent and pious and not put together a 30 minute "Nade Haidari" fest. As long as there is substance, then its good. Most of the best English lectures are by non-mu'amimeen, for example, Khalil Jaffer, Hassanain, and Ammar Nakshawani. There are very few really good turbanned lecturers. The only one i can think of is Modaressi and even then a lot of what he says is controversial, like the whole 3000 people being killed by a single sweep of the sword in Ashura.

Good old "Nade Haidari" fests!

Yes, MashAllah, Modaressi is very knowledgeable. Please can you explain to me what you mean by Khalil Jaffer, Hassanain, and Ammar Nakshawani being non-mu'amimeen?

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Good old "Nade Haidari" fests!

Yes, MashAllah, Modaressi is very knowledgeable. Please can you explain to me what you mean by Khalil Jaffer, Hassanain, and Ammar Nakshawani being non-mu'amimeen?

mu'amim = turbaned, non-mu'amim = not turbaned. In other words i mean that Khalil Jaffer, Hassanain and Ammar Nakshawani don't have turbans. They have not done formal hawza studies in a traditional institution.

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  • Veteran Member

Everyone has a right to speak in the light of their own journey through knowledge. It is up to people/listeners to decide if they are good enough or not. I don't also set much store by turbans or the lack of it. it's all illusory. All that matter is the tongue, and what comes out of it.

Furthermore, knowledge of religion is not necessarily acquired in formal clerical educational institutes. Sometimes people who have come out of seminaries have known to speak utter nonsense, with all due respects, as I am witness to a few such instances.

Anyhow, the question that whether or not they should be allowed on pulpit needs to be rephrased. There is no central authority in Shi'ism to allow or disallow speakers from pulpit. They make their individual names independently by themselves. A certain Islamic centre management might not allow a certain speaker due to their ideological differences but then there would always be other Islamic centres that would welcome them.

If you personally feel the speaker is not up to the task then either you can ignore him and his congregations or speak out against him to inform the community as to why you think he's not good.

I have only skimmed the thread so I don't know of your concerns per se but that's my independent opinion on this issue.

...oh btw, I voted for 'self-study is sufficient.'

I definitely do not agree with you.

This is not a "free speech issue". What is said on the pulpit affects people's imam and the community as a whole.

Also, a lot of deference is given to most who speak on the pulpit.

I didn't vote, but I sure would "vote" against your post.

As an analogy, would you go to a dentist or doctor who didn't know or know-enough about what they talked about in their fields ?

Edited by hasanhh
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