Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
Queen Yoda

Strictly Sisters Only!

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Well, when you have male moderators, then may be willing to allow more things because from their point of view it isn't offensive. Whereas, if there were more female moderators, they would be able to 'stamp it out' better 'cause they would be offended themselves and can see it from a females point of view.

In all honesty, women hating on other women is much more heartbreaking than being insulted by men.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But let them who find not [the means for] marriage abstain [from sexual relations] until Allah enriches them from His bounty. And those who seek a contract [for eventual emancipation] from among whom your right hands possess - then make a contract with them if you know there is within them goodness and give them from the wealth of Allah which He has given you. And do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, if they desire chastity, to seek [thereby] the temporary interests of worldly life. And if someone should compel them, then indeed, Allah is [to them], after their compulsion, Forgiving and Merciful. Nour/ 33

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe the scholars concluded from the context that "molk-e yamin" means female slaves. But even if it means so, according to Quran, muslims can marry them but there is no evidence (in Quran) which shows that they are allowed to force them to marry.

Maybe "molk-e yamin" means a woman with whom a muslim has made a contract... I am not sure!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Different meanings of "yamin": right, oath, agreement, contract, ...So "molk/melk-e yamin" may be defined as "owning an agreement"?! or maybe someone with whom you have signed an agreement or made a contract... again I am not sure.

And whoever among you cannot [find] the means to marry free, believing women, then [he may marry] from those whom your right hands possess of believing slave girls. And Allah is most knowing about your faith. You [believers] are of one another. So marry them with the permission of their people (their "ahl" in Arabic version) and give them their due compensation according to what is acceptable. [They should be] chaste, neither [of] those who commit unlawful intercourse randomly nor those who take [secret] lovers. But once they are sheltered in marriage, if they should commit adultery, then for them is half the punishment for free [unmarried] women. This [allowance] is for him among you who fears sin, but to be patient is better for you. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

4_25.png

According to the verse above, if a muslim can marry a free woman, is he also allowed to marry a female slave?! The verse also says "permission of their ahl" is required.

Edited by shadow_of_light

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking at the examples of the Ahlulbayt, I presume you would be allowed to marry a female slave even if you were in the position to marry a free woman. However I've realized that these women, regardless of whether they had married into the family or not were supposed to be extentions of the household and not beneath them.

I would love to get a respected scholars opinion on this hadith as well as the whole topic as when it comes to understanding the verse. knowing the context behind when the verse was revealed is beneficial.

Edited by *Sayyeda*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They are not illegitimate. Children born in that circumstance (from a master-slave union) are born free and given the same rights including the same inheritance rights in Islam as the man's other children. They are a part of the family like any other legitimate child. Children born out of wedlock from adultery or prostitution are illegitimate but this is not the case with a master-slave union.

A lot of sources also say a pregnant slave should be freed.

In regards to seeing reliable evidence because this issue is not applicable anymore we only have the hadith from the times of the Prophet and Imams. At least that should discourage people from thinking that such actions would be permissible or encouraged by the Imam today.

Edited by *Sayyeda*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They are not illegitimate. Children born in that circumstance (from a master-slave union) are born free and given the same rights including the same inheritance rights in Islam as the man's other children. They are a part of the family like any other legitimate child. Children born out of wedlock from adultery or prostitution are illegitimate but this is not the case with a master-slave union.

A lot of sources also say a pregnant slave should be freed.

In regards to seeing reliable evidence because this issue is not applicable anymore we only have the hadith from the times of the Prophet and Imams. At least that should discourage people from thinking that such actions would be permissible or encouraged by the Imam today.

not pregnant slave---but ummulwalad is freed after the man who owns her dies, given the child is still alive at that point---kids are considered legtimate though--

Edited by ילדת מלך

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"But as it aimed at putting an end to such issue, Islam laid down rules which would eventually lead to eradicating the practice. So it allowed Muslims to have intercourse with slave women taken as captives of just and legitimate wars. In so doing, the woman would automatically become free if she got pregnant. What's more, her child would also become free."

http://islamicrespon...concubines.html

I know it's not sourced but I have heard that pregnant slaves were not allowed to be sold and were meant to be freed and will try and find the verified source for it. Obviously just because they were meant to be freed doesn't mean they were.

NB: I'm not talking about all slaves here rather those who were captured after wars.

Edited by *Sayyeda*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"But as it aimed at putting an end to such issue, Islam laid down rules which would eventually lead to eradicating the practice. So it allowed Muslims to have intercourse with slave women taken as captives of just and legitimate wars. In so doing, the woman would automatically become free if she got pregnant. What's more, her child would also become free."

http://islamicrespon...concubines.html

I know it's not sourced but I have heard that pregnant slaves were not allowed to be sold and were meant to be freed and will try and find the verified source for it. Obviously just because they were meant to be freed doesn't mean they were.

NB: I'm not talking about all slaves here rather those who were captured after wars.

No problem Sister, ----we all want to believe in good things, I want to---so,--

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In all honesty, women hating on other women is much more heartbreaking than being insulted by men.

This is very true, I remmber at one point a sister agreed to something that no woman with aql would agree on, its ridiculas to say the least because their are sister that dont even know what's good for themselves. And your there arguing your case with a bunch of guys, yet one sister turns around and states what there saying is fine, I sometimes question if this sister actually read and undertand what there saying is an insult to their own gender.

Ofcourse there are men on this site that try to help out by pointing out information that we are not aware of. I think we need more sister that are educated in the field, because some people round here just show ahadith and think its fine, however not every hadith is correct and if you dont have enough knowledge on the topic you may fall for it.

The teens on the form need to watch out, as they may think something is right and go and do it, whilest they havnt completely understood the concepte.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is very true, I remmber at one point a sister agreed to something that no woman with aql would agree on, its ridiculas to say the least because their are sister that dont even know what's good for themselves. And your there arguing your case with a bunch of guys, yet one sister turns around and states what there saying is fine, I sometimes question if this sister actually read and undertand what there saying is an insult to their own gender.

Ofcourse there are men on this site that try to help out by pointing out information that we are not aware of. I think we need more sister that are educated in the field, because some people round here just show ahadith and think its fine, however not every hadith is correct and if you dont have enough knowledge on the topic you may fall for it.

The teens on the form need to watch out, as they may think something is right and go and do it, whilest they havnt completely understood the concepte.

Exactly. Some females on this site seem to think that anything the "knowledageble brothers" say is correct, and any sisters who disagree are fooling themselves or not seeing 'the real truth'. :no:

Edited by WhiteSkies

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Exactly. Some females on this site seem to think that anything the "knowledageble brothers" say is correct, and any sisters who disagree are fooling themselves or not seeing 'the real truth'. :no:

And many of the brothers and even some sisters think if you raise a point you are "too modern" or "westernized" or "feminist"!! (what's wrong with wanting rights for women anyway! No one's saying men and women are the same in Islam and real feminism isn't even about that!!)

What so many people don't understand that we do not discard parts of religion just because it disagrees with our lifestyle. In fact if something I morally disagree with was clearly stated in the Quran I would presume I was wrong. But when people quote irrelevant hadith in the absence of a Quranic quote that may or may not be reliable why we should accept them without questioning I do not know. Especially after the multiple hadith about it being ok to question things and after Imam Ali himself always used to say "Salooni, Salooni" .. Ask me, ask me anything

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And many of the brothers and even some sisters think if you raise a point you are "too modern" or "westernized" or "feminist"!! (what's wrong with wanting rights for women anyway! No one's saying men and women are the same in Islam and real feminism isn't even about that!!)

What so many people don't understand that we do not discard parts of religion just because it disagrees with our lifestyle. In fact if something I morally disagree with was clearly stated in the Quran I would presume I was wrong. But when people quote irrelevant hadith in the absence of a Quranic quote that may or may not be reliable why we should accept them without questioning I do not know. Especially after the multiple hadith about it being ok to question things and after Imam Ali himself always used to say "Salooni, Salooni" .. Ask me, ask me anything

Don't get me started on feminism. If you mention it here, or say that you agree with the principles of women having rights, then you are seen as the lowest scum on Earth. Hence why so many males on here use the word 'feminazi' or say 'you must be a feminist' in an offensive manner.

I agree. People seem to have a very narrow vision on certain things and if you refuse their view or ask for further clarification, then you are seen as rejecting hadith and Islam.

Sorry sisters. I seem to have developed a lot of pent up stress while being here :blush:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Being older to SC surely you've seen a lot more of thank I have.

I'm just glad I'm not the only one.

If only I could make friends on SC :)

No doubt though they are watching the thread.

Sisters should be able to discuss with other sisters without the interference of the brothers as there are somethings (even if only a few) that both genders would be better off discussing within themselves.

Edited by *Sayyeda*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I meant add you as friends on SC. However I don't have that privilege yet. But thankyou :)

ok-------sister, no idea whether you want to be my friend or not---I have added you as one-------after Marbles you are the 2nd person I have added as a friend----you can unfriend me I suppose, if you did not like my conduct on SC-----

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ok-------sister, no idea whether you want to be my friend or not---I have added you as one-------after Marbles you are the 2nd person I have added as a friend----you can unfriend me I suppose, if you did not like my conduct on SC-----

Thank you! I didn't realise you could add people before they reached 50 posts.

*Sayyeda* you should have two friends on your friends list now.

Edited by WhiteSkies

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course I wanted you as my friend, hebrew! Unfortunately though its not letting me accept you both. I don't know if you can see my friends list or not but either way after a few posts I'll be able to accept you both.

Sorry for calling you hebrew, if you'd prefer another name please let me know

Edited by *Sayyeda*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course I wanted you as my friend, hebrew! Unfortunately though its not letting me accept you both. I don't know if you can see my friends list or not but either way after a few posts I'll be able to accept you both.

Sorry for calling you hebrew, if you'd prefer another name please let me know

Hebrew is delicious-----all my close friends --on SC ---" your sister in faith", " Kaniz-e-zahra " and " Marbles "-- call me Hebrew Girl--

Edited by ילדת מלך

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hebrew girl, sorry if I misunderstood; after all, what you said was perhaps not very different from what I was saying. I'm just afraid that my rant may cause some sister to get doubts etc.

Shadow_of_light, there are cases where the girl's vali may give consent on her behalf.

And ladies, I'm afraid I'm going to come out as a traitor to my sex here, but well, let's see how this goes. Sisters, I haven't been here very wrong, but yes, some of the male members lack basic courtesy, and seem to think women as stupid creatures unworthy of basic courtesy. However, there are some brothers who I respect because they are capable of holding rational discussions in a civilised manner. Now, if one of them were to argue against some hadeeth, such as,about how a husband cannot force his wife to do household tasks, what would we say? We'd call them chauvinists who are unable to accept the truth because it they find it hard to do so, cos of personal beliefs (that a woman must necessarily cook, clean, etc). Now these narrations about sex being allowed with slaves are coming down from people whose other narrations we do submit to (e.g. about salaat, hajj etc) because they aren't inimical to our personal beliefs. On what basis do we discard them, other than that we find them hard to swallow? Is it not shocking that even a husband may demand sex of his wife, regardless of whether she feels like it or not? Is it not hard to swallow that a husband may stop his wife from going out? We may try to explain these away, but believe you me, we can only do so on the basis of what our personal moral compasses say. I've had a hard time accepting such stuff too. Forcing a woman, a slave on top of that, to submit to your sexual desires seems far more horrific, I agree. But if I can't find any explanation other than that given by my intellect, which may be flawed.... What do I do?

I occasionally get these bouts close to depression, for the more I find out about women in Islam, the narrower their sphere seems to be. At one point, I was about to start a thread to ask for help here. How do you guys put up with this stuff? I used to pray for daughters' and alhamdulillah, Allah blessed me by giving me my desire. And now, I'm confused about how to raise them. I was a very outgoing person, and a full believer in women's rights. I never went crazy overboard, though that is relative, of course, but whenever people spouted religion at me to tell me women's place, I considered them ignorant, backward nincompoops. Now, I occasionally feel lost. Does any of this make sense?

Hope you ladies don't throw stones for my betrayal, btw:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

such as,about how a husband cannot force his wife to do household tasks, what would we say? We'd call them chauvinists who are unable to accept the truth because it they find it hard to do so, cos of personal beliefs (that a woman must necessarily cook, clean, etc). Now these narrations about sex being allowed with slaves are coming down from people whose other narrations we do submit to (e.g. about salaat, hajj etc) because they aren't inimical to our personal beliefs. On what basis do we discard them, other than that we find them hard to swallow?

I have no problem with the two earlier teachings because I understand both are implemented to stop adultery. Inshallah if you have a good Mo’min husband, to listen to him in advice of leaving the house seems like a very prudent thing to do. It was not employed so a woman should not leave the house; it was to strengthen the marriage bond so that no man felt suspicious of where his wife was and had the right to know. Especially if later on someone said something, the husband would already have the facts and Shaitaan would not plunder his mind. Now days you get men who say to their wives they can go where they want without seeking consent and that too is allowed within Islam. The man does not have to be a dictator and can easily accept a woman’s freedom. It is a jihad for men to not let power corrupt them. This was never meant to restrict women even if this is the way brothers use it now. This is a protection for women. Our religion is not evil, but misunderstood due to some who wrongly try and prevent reform and use religion and hadith to underpin their own unlawful personal beliefs.

Remember, a husband also must fulfil the wife’s physical needs according to the holy prophet (funny how everybody forgets that). A woman is exempted with a justifiable excuse and there are many hadith of the Ahlulbayt that I do not wish to post here but easily attainable on the internet explaining the importance of a woman’s pleasure and her rights of intimacy as great as the mans. A good Mo’min husband would never ‘demand’ unless he was desperate and this teaching prevents embarrassment and him going unsatisfied lest it lead to him seeking pleasure elsewhere. That certain brothers equate this to rape is awful as they are distorting the teaching. This does NOT allow rape –Inter or extra marital.

As I mentioned before I have no qualms accepting Islamic teachings(even if they go against what I would think otherwise) I usually understand but if not it’s due to limited knowledge or cultural influence and not because the teaching is incorrect as Allah loves us equally and the religion doesn’t deem anyone inferior. My problem is how people can paste an unspecific hadith to allow something that is so blaringly inhumane and morally wrong. Forcing yourself onto any woman, slave, free, old, young is just wrong on every level and every age in Islam. There is no hadith, no narration and no quote that would allow this to be ok because we believe in a religion of equality and peace where one cannot hurt the other.

Hopefully the above would show you that a woman can be a full believer in women’s rights and follow the teachings of Islam as they both complement one another.

There are ignorant people everywhere but in Pakistan the men find it a lot harder for women to flourish for cultural reasons. Please don’t be depressed. With parents, siblings and husbands who understand Islam is not to subjugate women but to liberate women, your daughter and all Shia daughters will thrive.

Edited by *Sayyeda*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Girls - make sure you are wise in your choice of husband (this is where your family can really help) then you wont end up with a cruel man.

Looking at that Kai vile pm last night, some poor girl is going to end up being his wife. Make sure you dont end up with a creep like that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let me just say this is not what I (personally) meant by betrayal. This is intelligent discussion of a woman's role in Islam. What I was talking about is when women side with men's opinions of what we (women) should be or very black-and-white viewings of hadith; for example, how wives should be 'treated' if they don't 'obey' husbands, yet they ignore the many hadith which say that men should be loving towards their wives. Men bring up such hadith, and some women accept them without questioning further, unfortunately.

Looks like we're in the same situation, I've been frustrating myself over the issues, of men being able to demand sex, needing permission for everything, women not being able to 'rule' over men (meaning that we cannot be involved in politics), the difficulty of divorce for a women, and recently the whole 'what your right hand possess issue'. I too wanted to post a thread, but I thought no-one on SC would be going through the same dilemmas as me, so thank you for mentioning this.

While growing up, and till today, my father has never said to me 'you can't go out', I tell him where I am going out of respect, I don't ask, because he knows me very well and he trusts that his daughter knows what she is doing. So, if I don't 'ask' my father who I love most and has done most for me in this whole world, if I'm allowed to go out, there is no way that I feel I should have to ask my (hypothetical) husband. I'm an independent woman, with shock horror, a brain which tells her wrong from right, I don't need someone else with equal intelligence to me, telling me what is good for me. (Advising is one thing, locking your wife up is another).

As far as my understanding goes the husband, can refuse to clothe, feed, and shelter his wife if she refuses him sex. Now, I am in the stages of my degree and plan to work when I graduate, so where does that put me? I don't need a man to pay for me, so does that mean I can let go of other ‘obligations’ when I don’t feel like it? This rule also upsets me. I understand that there are some women who will not have sex with their husband to annoy them, but I feel that this takes a human’s basic right of free will. Also, excellent point by Sayedda, she mentions that no one ever mentions a women's need for sex (paraphrasing - correct me if I'm wrong). Of course they don't. Women, are meant to be selfless creatures who are too shy to speak about such carnal needs and I think many women feel ashamed of saying something that is biologically correct. As a result, men go around complaining about their sexual needs, and yet women don't say a thing in fear of people thinking that they are talking about themselves. (Much like MPs in Parliament who didn't vote/talk about homosexuality and still mental health, in fear of being seen as homosexual or having mental problems.)

I am an outgoing, friendly, sarcastic, vocal, and opinionated young woman, however it seems that as soon as I put on the hijab, I began to conform to how people thought I should act and behave. I became what I call the 'cookie cut-out Muslim woman', I 'acted' lets say, more shy, I didn't speak as much, I gave out less of my opinions and I constantly felt I had to do these things so I didn't give people a bad image of Islam, but that was never who I was, and it killed me. After a while, it seems that I became two people (with people who knew me after wearing the hijab), when I was wearing hijab I toned my personality down, and when I wasn't (at home), I was my normal self again.

I don't say that such hadith don't exist, because they do (even if I find them very hard to take) but, what annoys me is the males on here who look at it so one dimensionally (as I explained in the opening), and all I want to say is 'I'm having a hard time as it is, why the hell do you insist on making it worse?! Why do you bring these up, and not the ones which promote love and friendship between husbands and wives?'.

And the conclusion I have come to? This is my jihad apparently. Allah (swt) has done so much for me, that if this is the role that I must follow, then I will, because no matter what I do, I can’t repay what Allah (swt) has done for me. So, I will accept the above things and I hope to marry a man who is basically a decent human being, but what I won’t stand for is blatant misogyny, and a suppression of women’s rights that we have been given. It is a constant internal battle for me as a woman in the 21st century.

I do feel for you though. How can you tell your daughter, ‘actually you can’t become all that you want to become, because you’re a women. Maybe you should downscale your dreams a bit?’ I got to grow up thinking I could anything I wanted to be, and I hoped to be able to tell my (hypothetical) children the same.

Sorry for the very mixed up and confusing rant. These are just a segment of my emotions on the issue, but I don’t want to make people feel uncomfortable by going on for too long. It’s just the first time I’ve been on this site and I’ve gone ‘whoa! Someone has similar issues to me :o’. Yeah.

Lol, I now you had similar views to mine, before you even posted this...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Girls - make sure you are wise in your choice of husband (this is where your family can really help) then you wont end up with a cruel man.

Looking at that Kai vile pm last night, some poor girl is going to end up being his wife. Make sure you dont end up with a creep like that.

No names mentioned but some people need to be straightened out and hung to dry and their wives are going to do it to them. I cant wait if/when certain people on SC get married. They'll be the ones to change most.

Lol, I now you had similar views to mine, before you even posted this...

I think many have similar views but its hard to present them when we are made to feel we are in the minority because of the few but overpowering members who have completely radical thoughts.

By the way I got to the 50 posts limit :D So i have you lovely people as my friends. And now have pm and chat!! Like Shiachat wasn't a distraction enough!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No names mentioned but some people need to be straightened out and hung to dry and their wives are going to do it to them. I cant wait if/when certain people on SC get married. They'll be the ones to change most.

That I would like to see :D

I think many have similar views but its hard to present them when we are made to feel we are in the minority because of the few but overpowering members who have completely radical thoughts.

By the way I got to the 50 posts limit :D So i have you lovely people as my friends. And now have pm and chat!! Like Shiachat wasn't a distraction enough!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...