Strictly Sisters Only!

[Queen Yoda 922]

Sisters, we know that slavery is mentioned in the Quran and Allah (swt) knows best. But do you think the concept of slavery in the Quran is the same as slavery today?

We know that the Imams (as) had slaves, but those slaves were treated well and some of them were then married to the Imams (as).

Modern day slavery feels very different.

What do you think?

P.S. If any males post in here then they will be reported.

[Envir-Islam 123]

Are there any hadith on how the slaves were treated? I think that it is different from what society does to slaves now a days. Allah knows best and I don't think he would allow for miss treatment of any person. Slaves today are beaten, harassed, abused mentally and physically, I don't think it is the same. But id like to read some hadith or a book on it if there is such things.

[Queen Yoda 922]

Are there any hadith on how the slaves were treated? I think that it is different from what society does to slaves now a days. Allah knows best and I don't think he would allow for miss treatment of any person. Slaves today are beaten, harassed, abused mentally and physically, I don't think it is the same. But id like to read some hadith or a book on it if there is such things.

I dont know of any hadiths to the treatment of slaves, but I agree with what you say

[*Sayyeda* 1,139]

Bibi Fatima and Bibi Fizza shared household duties and she was a freed slave yet dedicated her life to the Ahlulbayt. Bibi Khadija's wealth was spent on freeing slaves and punishments for certain sins are to free a slave uggesting slavery is not something encouraged by Islam. Slavery in Islam is not meant to be oppressive yet usually people take advantage of it. It is mentioned in the Quran because it was still ongoing at the time and although the Prophet freed many slaves, slavery could not be eradicated immediately so at least rules were put in place to protect the rights of slaves.

Modern day slavery and preIslamic slavery both are both oppressive and therefore UnIslamic. Slaves whose Islamic rights were not recognized underwent hardships such as Salman e Farsi who was later freed by the Holy Prophet from A Jew.

This differs with how Imam Ali for example treated his slaves such as I have heard that Qambar said he rarely had an opportunity to serve Imam Ali and he used to do his own washing and maintain his own clothes and provide better food and clothing for his slaves then himself. I think you're right in thinking that the types of slavery are different.

After all being subjugated under a master and willingly being in the service of and serving the Imam are very different. (Qambar was reluctant to leave Imam Ali) Don't we strive to be in the service of Imam (A.S) and to serve the AhlulBayt yet we are not oppressed. Therefore even if people like Qambar were called slaves, the relationship was built on love not fear of a master.

This website has some hadith and stories that are derived from different sources but for books I would suggest going directly to the Shia hadith compilations and working from there. That way sources too are verified.

http://www.ezsoftech.com/stories/imamali1.asp

[Queen Yoda 922]

Excellent sister - I just wished those who want to and believe in keeping slaves read this and understand this.

If you love Ahlulbayt then behave as they have and would have done

[Noura_Shi'a 330]

I couldnt explain it better than sister *Sayyeda*.

The word slave has a whole new meaning today, which isnt the same as slavery were in the time of our Prophet (pbuh) and Ahlulbayt (as) . Nowadays we can call it either helpers, which rich ppl only have. Or slaves that the "owners" nearly abuse and etc, which is not near what slaves were in older time.

Edited January 7, 2013 by Noura_Shi'a

[*Sayyeda* 1,139]

Thank you QueenYoda and Noura_Shi'a

InshAllah those oppressed modern day slaves will be freed and their owners will mend their ways.

[Firuzeh18 200]

Well I personally think that having a slave is not good, however one can have a servant. The problem is that; people these days and even muslims, dont know the rulings on how to treat a slave justly and i'm sure some of their rights get taken away from them. As Sayedda said, why not buy slaves from a slave trade and then free them, so that they can start a new life and this was also encouraged even at the beginning of islam.

As in the other thread some brothers said that its okay to use "use" slaves, as you please. I think that its not okay, firstly they are a human being, secondly they have also wishes and wants and thirdly you dont own them. Owning is when you create something, so that means that you can use it as you please. For example, theres a new car you have created, that means that car is all your and you can what ever you want to do with it. You can break it or you can just abandon it. However this can't be done to a slave.

Inshallah all oppressed slaves get freed and live their life onbly as the slave of Allah (swt).

[Queen Yoda 922]

I became quite emotional yesterday with that slavery thread, especially when hearing about 'Masters' being able to insist on sex with their slave without marriage.

I know my Shia faith is about love and kindness, none of the cruelty associated with the way slaves have been treated since the days of the Imams (as). But you get boys saying that a slave's life is nothing and you can do what you like with them - this goes against everything that I have been taught.

I also agree with Fatimah18 Inshallah all oppressed slaves get freed. The only slave you should be is to Allah (swt).

[kim.tinkerbell 1,252]

The word slavery isint used anymore. In this day and age the are part of a working class. No one is your slave they are their to help you. Slaves are human and they are closer to the owner then anyother person, they see,clean and work to keep their owners happy. The owner should understand that they are not above the person that's helping them because if it wasnt for them they would be no where in some cases. Even thou it stated in the quran ,it does not mean that a person can buy and sale them and use them without considering there feelings and being mercifiul.

Raham is what distinguishes one owner from the other, the imam (as) have mercy,however the same cant be said about others, hindi for example got wahashh ( one strong man) to kill hamza (as), getting the slave to do the drity work. Who will be accountable for the killing her or the slave.

Slavery, is not a nice word and slaves can hurt you more then you think,so abusing them or even scraming at them for no reason can all trun against you. One should treat people like they want to be treated,regardless of who pays who.

Slavery is not that different from that time, people still buy and sale people,they phyiscal hit there workers and in some cases even rape them know I know you can do what you want with a slave,however rape should be out of the equation, just marry her and free her. There are many cases of malasyison workers in saudia getting physical abused and I remmber in one cases the lady ironed her worker ,the scar was on her back.

And in another case the worker, killed the owners child because she assumed that the owner was going to send her back to her country. I have to say the mother of child was extermly saboorah,she was a relgious lady and treated her worker nicley however the work on the other hand was kind pyscho. This cases shocked alot of saudies to say the least. But it also opened the eyes of others,that scarming or shutting on the worker might lead to the hurting the child,as a form of revange. Magic is another thing workers that work in the arab country use,to gain control of the owner. So there are slaves that work against you in this centry.

Slave should have the same rights as normal humans because we are all one,we should aim to help them just like they help us. I mean if the propht (pbuh) stated that," this stone hearted person is one of the people of the fire", after a man came to him and told him he has never kissed a child.What will the owner with no raham get in the ahikira for abusing their power ?

[Queen Yoda 922]

Not sure about the black magic part, but if you mistreat someone then they are bound to want revenge. Kind of like Abu Lulu (ra) and umar

[-Enlightened 3,755]

(salam)

I'll try to explain it in 1 or 2 sentence :

In the past, the Imam's would hire slaves in order to liberate them from the oppressors and to grant them a bit more freedom . Whenever the imam's would let the slaves go away, the slaves refused and wanted to stay with the imam's because of their intense kindness

I'm sorry for my limited knowledge. Its only what I know about this subject

Edited January 7, 2013 by -Enlightened

[*Sayyeda* 1,139]

I became quite emotional yesterday with that slavery thread, especially when hearing about 'Masters' being able to insist on sex with their slave without marriage.

I know my Shia faith is about love and kindness, none of the cruelty associated with the way slaves have been treated since the days of the Imams (as). But you get boys saying that a slave's life is nothing and you can do what you like with them - this goes against everything that I have been taught.

The problem is that; people these days and even muslims, dont know the rulings on how to treat a slave justly and i'm sure some of their rights get taken away from them. As Sayedda said, why not buy slaves from a slave trade and then free them, so that they can start a new life and this was also encouraged even at the beginning of islam.

As in the other thread some brothers said that its okay to use "use" slaves, as you please. I think that its not okay, firstly they are a human being, secondly they have also wishes and wants and thirdly you dont own them. Owning is when you create something, so that means that you can use it as you please. For example, theres a new car you have created, that means that car is all your and you can what ever you want to do with it. You can break it or you can just abandon it. However this can't be done to a slave.

I started this post to chastise those who insist relations with slaves is allowed without their consent and say they are hopefully not representative of the Shia male population and Inshallah the Shia's of Imam Ali know that they are not allowed to 'use and abuse' anybody especially those who depend on them. Then i realized it doesn't matter. Let us not get emotional or upset because of the backward mentalities of certain brothers. Being older to SC then I am, I'm sure you've noticed a lot more of the subjugating ideologies especially in the marriage threads that some members try and justify as Islamic. I stay away from the sunni/shia dialogue because it makes my blood boil but I think sometimes even that is safer then wandering into the marriage forum. Sisters, I never saw the earlier thread on slavery but as for those who can openly talk about 'using' slaves' in such a way without their consent, either they will never get married (or are unhappily married) and this is bitterness or when they do their wives will put them straight and they will never dare to think let alone speak such things.

Its hard enough to fight the Non muslims about oppression but when our own say such ignorant and oppressive things, one doesn't know what the world has come to. Stay strong sisters!

Edited January 7, 2013 by *Sayyeda*

[Queen Yoda 922]

Sister here is the thread http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235009924-marrying-a-slave-woman/

[kim.tinkerbell 1,252]

Magic is used, however its hard to prove it.

What's really sad/pathitic is people thinking its okay to do a certain act,as long as you have a haidth to prove it....

What happened to your rahama? Did you lose it ? Or are you just blindly following your desire,without considering the others feelings.

I did read the marrying a slave woman thread, no comment on that.

[Queen Yoda 922]

This business about slaves automatically being mahram to you sounds so wrong. Apparently there are hadiths that say so, but all of this goes against everything we have taught about marriage and fornication.

I am not a hadith denier, but this just doesnt make any sense

[Maryaam 2,072]

Slavery is hard to accept because we have been taught all our lives that owning another person is immoral and wrong on every level – we have a negative visceral reaction when given information about current-day slaves around the world – they have no ability to choose their life direction or spouse or job or environment – they are totally at the mercy of the owner and are often terribly abused. This is the problem a lot of Muslims have with Islamic slavery. Given the right to own slaves, humans will be humans and, so, even under the Islamic banner, you are in a very easy position to take advantage of slaves in many ways – that is, even beyond participating in removing their freedom.

In the times of the imams, people captured in battles were taken as slaves to maintain them as they would probably otherwise die in such harsh conditions; that is, it was a humane gesture as they were fed and housed.

However, I can’t wrap my head around other ideas that were common and accepted during that time…. why it is permitted to have sex with a woman who may be married to another, may be very young and virgin, may have just had a close male family member brutally killed – but most of all who did not consent. Or the right to buy and sell people. Slavery is halal in Islam but I have a lot of difficulty accepting enslavement, human property rights over humans, and the clear promotion of a class system as slaves lived with different rules and rights than other humans.

Slavery is halal, but it would be difficult to find a situation where a good enough case could be made to consider it moral and ethical – whether the slaves were held in a golden cage being fed honey or chained to a rat infested shack. Slavery is one of the most difficult Islamic concepts to understand.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Maryaam

[Koshaan 77]

I don't know of any modern-day slaves in the Islamic sense of the word. I've heard that there are slaves in some Muslim parts of Africa, though I somehow doubt they would be treated as Islam enjoins. Also, there are many servants in the Middle East who are treated more as slaves, but in the modern sense- I mean they are often exploited and harmed physically and even sexually.

If im not wrong, your question stems from the sexual aspect of it. I once attended a lecture where the speaker mentioned how its wrong for any Muslim to submit to any human who treats him unjustly. I asked how this fit in with the ruling about how masters may have sex with female slaves without nikah, and what he said, while very simplistic, somehow struck a chord with me. He said that in the case of a slave woman and her master, there is no nikah required for legalising sexual relations, because in allowing them to their masters, Allah has, in effect, pre-read their nikah.

What I still can't swallow is the idea that a master could force himself onto a slave. Ive been trying to find out more about Islam these days, and this is one of those things that has caused me quite a bit of...no, a LOT of distress. I said this in another thread too, that well, husbands don't necessarily need their wives' consent for sex either, so the fact that slaves needn't give theirs shouldnt be much different. But how can such treatment of any slaves be considered humane? Yes, you're feeding and clothing them and treating them kindly, but that you can take them away from family, husband, perhaps kids, put them in iddah, then bed them if you so fancy.... beyond me, for now. Makes me get really weird thoughts; in low moments, i start wondering if women aren't much more than bodies, halal vessels for men to fulfil their carnal urges... May be I shouldn't even be writing this, but I'm hoping the sisters here would understand. May Allah guide us all, ameen

[ילדת מלך 1,176]

Sisters-----there is no such thing as white slavery, pink slavery, purple salvery or black slavery------------; slavery is slavery simple and that ends the matter.

Slaves are treated well or bad, does not make any difference to me; they are still human being who have been de-humanized; men turned into beasts of burden, nothing of their owm, no pride, no possession of his own, with no one to love, no one to call his own--{ well his master has perfect religious indemnity to order him to put his wife aside--as if she is a wet cloth to be aired in sun---for his personal pleasure--}

--there are kids, stolen from their mothers, ---and there are women turned into blow-up dolls to be passed around men like a hanky to blow one's snot---

-------------Good slavery, happy slavery, healthy slavery and yet slavery, which allows one chunk of population who has money and power to use other creatures of God as if they are non-entities;---the supposed right of human beings to live with honour turns out to be the biggest joke of human history--past, present, future--

At this time of my life, at this point the only thing I longed for is to go back to my stupid , childish belief in the Mercy and Love of God; the only thing I want is to unlearn what I have learnt..............time for answers is gone, now I neither seek any explanation nor believe in any justification--------

Edited January 8, 2013 by ילדת מלך

[ילדת מלך 1,176]

Makes me get really weird thoughts; in low moments, i start wondering if women aren't much more than bodies, halal vessels for men to fulfil their carnal urges... May be I shouldn't even be writing this, but I'm hoping the sisters here would understand. May Allah guide us all, ameen

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

yes sister, you hit the hammer on the nail---------that's the truth, that has always been the truth; soulless creature, way below man and just above animals-------no honour, no dignity, no soul, no heart no mind--nothing but a body; that is what Greeks said, that's what Roman believed that 's what the divine order of things say------that's all sister, nothing else-----

what a cursed , cursed moment when Eve shared the fruit with her so-called husband; had our mother realized that how her daughters would have to pay for her sin, she would have stewed the apple in hemlock and eaten it hersel, thousand years of humilaition and suffering and divine wrath is still raging over us------As one of our Imams said---nothing but a toy, a purchased commodity---not only concubines, sister but wives too...

[Sapphire 2,799]

Modern day slavery--though negligible--is a means of exploitation of human beings as a resource. The notion of humans owning other humans is absurd in modern day. Having authority over someones emotions, body and soul is just bizarre. Don't get me wrong. I do not oppose the Islamic concept of slavery but it is no longer applicable in the modern day world because we do not manufacture human beings anymore, just plain simple animals. Having no respect and care for others. All we care about is ME ME ME. There is no YOU in our lives.

How can you treat people as a commodity, a mere object to fullfil your pitiful desires?? Dehumanization at its peak. :(

[Koshaan 77]

Err, lady with the ID in some other language (is it Hebrew?), the one who's posted above Your Sister in Faith, please, don't be that hard on the Deen. Ultimately, the fault has to lie in our understanding. Sister Maryaam wrote, I think correctly, in another thread, that no matter what, we can never truly understand what the whole deal was, since we are so far removed from those circumstances, in our time, society etc.

And Your Sister in Faith, what you say would've been me a while back, but I'm coming to terms with that bit. Don't ask how, pretty much the same as what I've written in my first paragraph, I guess. Don't despair, and pray for an increase in understanding for us all.

[ילדת מלך 1,176]

Err, lady with the ID in some other language (is it Hebrew?), the one who's posted above Your Sister in Faith, please, don't be that hard on the Deen. Ultimately, the fault has to lie in our understanding. Sister Maryaam wrote, I think correctly, in another thread, that no matter what, we can never truly understand what the whole deal was, since we are so far removed from those circumstances, in our time, society etc.

If you think that I was being hard on Deen then I failed in communicating myself---as usal it seems.....

Edited January 8, 2013 by ילדת מלך

[Queen Yoda 922]

If you think that I was being hard on Deen then I failed in communicating myself---as usal it seems.....

Nobody is thinking that sister, on the internet its sometimes hard to express how we feel. I certainly know it is for me

[shadow_of_light 1,673]

I am not even sure that if Islam allows slavery or not. It is very difficult for me to believe that Islam allows men to take people (excluding male prisoners of war) as slaves! Quran encourages people to free slaves but is there any verse which clearly allows slavery?! By the way, what is modern slavery?! I thought that it had been abolished in 19th or early 20th century!

Edited January 8, 2013 by shadow_of_light

[ילדת מלך 1,176]

Nobody is thinking that sister, on the internet its sometimes hard to express how we feel. I certainly know it is for me

I am not good at expressing myself----have always been bad---well , life in Convent makes you a contemplative nun, I am a disaster at communication so in real life I prefer to stay quiet or talk to only those understand me without words---

--oh well, thanks for consoling me--- :wub:

[shadow_of_light 1,673]

As to marrying female slaves, if we regard it as a kind of marriage, considering that in marriage, "consent" is required, then I think that marrying female slaves without their consent is not allowed and it is really inhumane.

Edited January 8, 2013 by shadow_of_light

[Queen Yoda 922]

As to marrying female slaves, if we regard it as a kind of marriage, considering that in marriage, "consent" is required, then I think that marrying female slaves without their consent is not allowed and it is really inhumane.

According to that other thread, when a Master purchases a female slave she instantly becomes mahram to him, no marriage contract is needed and he can have sex with her, even against her will.

The thing that really bothers me is that some of the brothers on here think its okay. They say its not something that goes on today, but we have all heard about slavery today.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Queen Yoda

[ילדת מלך 1,176]

As to marrying female slaves, if we regard it as a kind of marriage, considering that in marriage, "consent" is required, then I think that marrying female slaves without their consent is not allowed and it is really inhumane.

shadow--please do not go there, please, stay with us--here--

[shadow_of_light 1,673]

According to that other thread, when a Master purchases a female slave she instantly becomes mahram to him, no marriage contract is needed and he can have sex with her, even against her will.

Is there any verse/ authentic hadeeth which proves it? Quran says that "molk-e yamin"s are mahram to you but it doesnt specify who "molk-e yamin"s are nor does it say that people are allowed to force female slaves to have sex.

shadow--please do not go there, please, stay with us--here--

Where?!

[ילדת מלך 1,176]

According to that other thread, when a Master purchases a female slave she instantly becomes mahram to him, no marriage contract is needed and he can have sex with her, even against her will.

The thing that really bothers me is that some of the brothers on here think its okay. They say its not something that goes on today, but we have all heard about slavery today.

Sister, would you believe me if I told you they were quite temperate in this thread----the two threads where I had the misfortune of posting in , we--me, ImAli and Gypsy were cluster-bombed with insults, ridicule and contempt---it was a nightmare

I do not want to name the threads because I do not want any person to go and resurrect them and re-launch the misery operation---otherwise you would have seen how , I do not know what--- it was

[Queen Yoda 922]

Is there any verse/ authentic hadeeth which proves it? Quran says that "molk-e yamin"s are mahram to you but it doesnt specify who "molk-e yamin"s are nor does it say that people are allowed to force female slaves to have sex.

Well thats what I think too - that term has not been translated acurately, so they think that this justifies the whole, you can force sex with a slave woman that is not your wife.

Sister, would you believe me if I told you they were quite temperate in this thread----the two threads where I had the misfortune of posting in , we--me, ImAli and Gypsy were cluster-bombed with insults, ridicule and contempt---it was a nightmare

I do not want to name the threads because I do not want any person to go and resurrect them and re-launch the misery operation---otherwise you would have seen how , I do not know what--- it was

That is awful, Shia men treating their Shia sisters with contempt. They rounded on me like a pack on wolves but it sounds like you guys had it worse! There is a general lack of respect on here for women, i blame it on the high number of teenage boys that come on here

[WhiteSkies 507]

That is awful, Shia men treating their Shia sisters with contempt. They rounded on me like a pack on wolves but it sounds like you guys had it worse! There is a general lack of respect on here for women, i blame it on the high number of teenage boys that come on here

+1

That is precisely why I am wary of posting anything that is gender related. The upsetting thing is that they think its perfectly normal to treat females in such a manner. It's a wonder that any females are still left on this site. :donno:

[Queen Yoda 922]

I think the boys on here get away with far too much, there is a moderation issue. The ones that tackle bad behaviour tend to me Macisaac and Abu Hadi, but the others need to stamp this out too.

That said we have a female mod now, hopefully she will help too...

[shadow_of_light 1,673]

In surah noor/ verse 32, Quran uses the words "ebaad" and "emaa" (ebaadekom wa emaa ekom) to mention "male slaves" and "female slaves", respectively. If by "molk-e yamin" it meant slaves, why didnt it use the word "emaa"? This is just a question and I am not 100% sure about my words.