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KareemKarbala

Tawassul Or Shirk?

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(salam) dear brother and sisters.

I have a question about tawassul. I remember talking to my father( who did hawza for a while) about the subject tawassul. He told me that tawassul means asking Allah(azza wa djal) through someone who enjoys a high rank in the "eyes" of Allah(azza wa djal).

I wasnt satisfied with the answer though. I asked him if it was possible for a ma'soom to give you something without tawassul. What if I asked one of the ma'soomeen without the intention of tawassul. Would it be shirk if I did? example, I believe Imam Ali(as) has the power to give things to people if they ask him without the use of tawassul.

Where is the line between shirk and tawassul?

Please help me out

(wasalam)

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(salam)

I think that shirk is to exclude Allah from your dua, or to think that the will of Maassomeen will answer your dua. Maassomeen are closer to god than us, so by getting closer to them, we get closer to Allah. And you don't ask them to answer your dua or to get you enter Djannah. But you ask them shafa'a and dua, since their dua can't be refused by Allah insha'Allah.

Wa allahu A'alam

Edited by Noble Spirit

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For example:

If you believe that Imam 'Ali (as) can gift you things because he himself is powerful and has the ability within himself without help to do so, this is Shirk

However, if you believe Imam 'Ali (as) has been given the special appointment by Allah (swt) where he has the power (now within himself, because it was given) to gift you things, then to call upon him would be Tawassul...

In other words, if you call upon Imam 'Ali (as) thinking he himself is all powerful because he is who he is...you have committed Shirk.

If you call upon Imam 'Ali (as) because you know Allah(swt) has loved him and given him all power over every atom in this universe because of his (Imams) love for Allah (swt)...Then you have used the best Waseela.

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If you call upon Imam 'Ali (as) because you know Allah(swt) has loved him and given him all power over every atom in this universe because of his (Imams) love for Allah (swt)...Then you have used the best Waseela.

Except that the Imams (a) taught us who to supplicate, and your method has nothing at all to do with their teachings, so, you are free to use this method if you want, but don't mislead others by claiming x method is the best, the best is to follow an infallible.

وفي الكافي عنه (عليه السلام) أنه قيل له في قوله سبحانه ادعوني استجب لكم ندعوه ولا نرى إجابة قال أفترى الله عز وجل أخلف وعده فال لا قال فمم ذلك قال لا أدري قال لكني أخبرك من أطاع الله عز وجل فيما أمره ثم دعاه من جهة الدعاء أجابه قيل وما جهة الدعاء قال تبدأ وتحمد الله وتذكر نعمه عندك ثم تشكره ثم تصلي على النبي (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ثم تذكر ذنوبك فتقر بها ثم تستعيذ منها فهذا جهة الدعاء

@ op, if you need to ask this question, what does that tell you? (though it is true that there are a number of scholars who believe the Imams have power over everything, so you can ask them.)

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Except that the Imams (a) taught us who to supplicate, and your method has nothing at all to do with their teachings, so, you are free to use this method if you want, but don't mislead others by claiming x method is the best, the best is to follow an infallible.

وفي الكافي عنه (عليه السلام) أنه قيل له في قوله سبحانه ادعوني استجب لكم ندعوه ولا نرى إجابة قال أفترى الله عز وجل أخلف وعده فال لا قال فمم ذلك قال لا أدري قال لكني أخبرك من أطاع الله عز وجل فيما أمره ثم دعاه من جهة الدعاء أجابه قيل وما جهة الدعاء قال تبدأ وتحمد الله وتذكر نعمه عندك ثم تشكره ثم تصلي على النبي (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ثم تذكر ذنوبك فتقر بها ثم تستعيذ منها فهذا جهة الدعاء

@ op, if you need to ask this question, what does that tell you? (though it is true that there are a number of scholars who believe the Imams have power over everything, so you can ask them.)

You did not understand me brother. I meant Imam 'Ali is the best Waseela...not the way I say to call upon him.

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Once Imam Sadiq (as) was eating food with Abu Hanifa and after finishing, Imam Sadiq (as) expressed gratitude like this:

Imam Sadiq (as) “I thank Allah who is the Sustainer of All Worlds, O Allah this was a blessing from You as well as from Your Prophet”

Abu Hanifa said: “O Abu AbdAllah! You have include ‘someone else’ along with Allah (azwj).” Imam Sadiq (as) "Be careful and recited verse:

[it would've been better] if they had been pleased with what Allah and His Apostle gave them, and had said Allah is sufficient for us 9:59

Allah will give to us out of His grace, and His Apostle. Indeed to Allah do we eagerly turn 9:59

and they were vindictive only because Allah and His Apostle had enriched them out of His grace 9:74

On hearing these verses, Abu Hanifa said “By Allah It seems I have never read or heard someone reciting these Verses of the Quran before.”

Imam Sadiq (as) “No, its not like this! You have not only heard but read these verses before. Allah says for you and people like you:

Do they not contemplate the Qurʾān, or are there locks on the hearts? 47:24

No indeed! Rather their hearts have been overcast by what they have been earning. 87:14

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Tawasul is big among us followrs of Ahlulbayt. The idea is that you can ask to Allah (swt) directly, and also you can ask his pious people like prophets and Imams and saints (the people who lived a pious life) to pray for you because Allah(swt) is more likely to answer their prayers than yours. This is called intercession.

In Ayatul Kursi Allah (swt) doesn't rule out intercession he says in an English interpreation:

"...who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission?..."

And there are plenty of hadith that prophet (pbuh) and Imams (as) are granted to do intercede for their true followers.

Also Quran points out that intercession is not against it if its done properly. For one Christians did it all the time and Quran praised Christian priests for not being arrogant and teach God's religion but they went wrong when they said Jesus (pbuh) was a god or son of God. Quran didn't say they were wrong because of intercession but they were wrong for calling God's apostle divine.

Another story in Quran is when people of Yaghub (as) realized they had committed a great sin, they asked their father to ask Allah (swt) to ask for forgiveness for them. That is because Allah(swt) is more likely to answer Duas of his prophets.

Anyway, Dua Tawasul is a Dua written by Imam Hasan Askari(as), father of our awaited Imam (aj). So Tawasul is solid within Islam.

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before jumpin on tawassul try to think of hw many times u do shirk in normal prayer.. in sayin allahu akbar, in sayin subhan Allah,etc.

Can you elaborate on what you mean here? I am curios. Thank you

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salaamu alaykum. Serious question about this topic. Suppose I accepted what haydar karrar said about the special appointment, what is the difference between that and what Hindus do? Or even the mushrikeen of Mecca. If you actually read the creed of the Hindus, they use the exact same justification for their calling upon things besides Allah, and the mushrikeen of Mecca also used a similar justification. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Wahhabis are right in their banning tawassul altogether, but I do have doubts about the Imams being appointed to give us things, rather I think their power is simply to do dua to Allah to ask for a favour for us, similar to when we ask family/community members/imam@masjid to make duas for us. I'm open to the idea of their being specially appointed if someone can reconcile how this differs from the Hindus in any way.

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salaamu alaykum. Serious question about this topic. Suppose I accepted what haydar karrar said about the special appointment, what is the difference between that and what Hindus do? Or even the mushrikeen of Mecca. If you actually read the creed of the Hindus, they use the exact same justification for their calling upon things besides Allah, and the mushrikeen of Mecca also used a similar justification. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Wahhabis are right in their banning tawassul altogether, but I do have doubts about the Imams being appointed to give us things, rather I think their power is simply to do dua to Allah to ask for a favour for us, similar to when we ask family/community members/imam@masjid to make duas for us. I'm open to the idea of their being specially appointed if someone can reconcile how this differs from the Hindus in any way.

The difference is, the believe that the Entities have the power of God and are unlimited like him. We believe no, the A'imma are appointed and are limited, this is why the passed.

And brother, what do you mean this is the exact same justification Hindus use? Do you know anything about what they say? Do you know anything about them.

Hindus worship different Entities as GODS!!!! Not as appointed Awliyaa'.

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Hindus believe that that these other "gods" are only a means of approximation to reach the true God. Hindus themselves actually maintain that they are monotheistic. They do not believe anythingg has an independent power from God.

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Hindu verse Shia Tawassul is far from the same. The may describe it as mono or in your eyes, but in reality they worship more then one god and in different forms. Yes, they do believe those other gods do have independent power. Research about two of their gods, their is no mention of it pertaining to one god, nor is the power that those gods have from that one god.....besides the fact that they prostrate to idols.

Concept of God

Main article: God in Hinduism

250px-Vishnuvishvarupa.jpg

magnify-clip.pngKrishna displays his Vishvarupa (Universal Form) to Arjuna on the battlefield of Kurukshetra.

Hinduism is a diverse system of thought with beliefs spanning monotheism, polytheism, panentheism, pantheism, monism, and atheism among others;[82][83][84][85] and its concept of God is complex and depends upon each individual and the tradition and philosophy followed. It is sometimes referred to as henotheistic (i.e., involving devotion to a single god while accepting the existence of others), but any such term is an overgeneralization.[86]

The Rig Veda, the oldest scripture and the mainstay of Hindu philosophy does not take a restrictive view on the fundamental question of God and the creation of universe. It rather lets the individual seek and discover answers in the quest of life. Nasadiya Sukta (Creation Hymn) of the Rig Veda thus says:[87][88]

Who really knows?

Who will here proclaim it?

Whence was it produced? Whence is this creation?

The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.

Who then knows whence it has arisen?

Most Hindus believe that the spirit or soul — the true "self" of every person, called the ātman — is eternal.[89] According to the monistic/pantheistic theologies of Hinduism (such as Advaita Vedanta school), this Atman is ultimately indistinct from Brahman, the supreme spirit. Hence, these schools are called non-dualist.[90] The goal of life, according to the Advaita school, is to realize that one's ātman is identical to Brahman, the supreme soul.[91] The Upanishads state that whoever becomes fully aware of the ātman as the innermost core of one's own self realizes an identity with Brahman and thereby reaches moksha (liberation or freedom).[89][92]

The schools of Vedanta and Nyaya states that karma itself proves the existence of God .[93][94] Nyaya being the school of logic, makes the "logical" inference that the universe is an effect and it ought to have a creator.[95]

Dualistic schools (see Dvaita and Bhakti) understand Brahman as a Supreme Being who possesses personality, and they worship him or her thus, as Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva, or Shakti, depending upon the sect. The ātman is dependent on God, while moksha depends on love towards God and on God's grace.[96] When God is viewed as the supreme personal being (rather than as the infinite principle), God is called Ishvara ("The Lord"),[97] Bhagavan ("The Auspicious One"[97]) or Parameshwara ("The Supreme Lord"[97]).[90] However interpretations of Ishvara vary, ranging from non-belief in Ishvara by followers of Mimamsakas, to identifying Brahman and Ishvara as one, as in Advaita.[90] In the majority of traditions of Vaishnavism he is Vishnu, God, and the text of Vaishnava scriptures identify this Being as Krishna, sometimes referred to as svayam bhagavan. However, under Shaktism, Devi or Adi parashakti is considered as the Supreme Being and in Shaivism Shiva is considered Supreme.

The multitude of devas are viewed as avatars of the Brahman.[98][99][100][101] In discussing the Trimurti, Sir William Jones states that Hindus "worship the Supreme Being under three forms — Vishnu, Siva, Brahma...The fundamental idea of the Hindu religion, that of metamorphoses, or transformations, is exemplified in the Avatars."[102]

In Bhagavad Gita, for example, God is the sole repository of Gunas (attributes) also, as[103]

His hands and feet are everywhere, He looks everywhere and all around,
His eyes, ears and face point to all directions, and all the three worlds are surrounded by these.

Atheistic doctrines dominate Hindu schools like Samkhya and Mimamsa.[104] The Sāṁkhyapravacana Sūtra of Samkhya argues that the existence of God (Ishvara) cannot be proved and hence cannot be admitted to exist.[105] Samkhya argue that an unchanging God cannot be the source of an ever changing world. It says God was a necessary metaphysical assumption demanded by circumstances.[106] Proponents of the school of Mimamsa, which is based on rituals and orthopraxy states that the evidence allegedly proving the existence of God was insufficient. They argue that there is no need to postulate a maker for the world, just as there is no need for an author to compose the Vedas or a God to validate the rituals.[107] Mimamsa considers the Gods named in the Vedas have no existence apart from the mantras that speak their names. To that regard, the power of the mantras is what is seen as the power of Gods.[108]

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Thanks for all the answers, but it still isn't very clear to me. May Allah help you all insha'Allah

Ok so let me try to explain again. My father said that when we say ya Ali madad or ya Ali adrikna we aren't doing tawassul. Its actually the belief that they will help you directly without tawassul. Is this shirk? I wonder.. Of course you believe Allah makes it possible for them to help you directly.

Its a very interesting subject. But also kind of important. We need to know what is allowed and what isn't.

Edited by KareemKarbala

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Thanks for all the answers, but it still isn't very clear to me. May Allah help you all insha'Allah

Ok so let me try to explain again. My father said that when we say ya Ali madad or ya Ali adrikna we aren't doing tawassul. Its actually the belief that they will help you directly without tawassul. Is this shirk? I wonder.. Of course you believe Allah makes it possible for them to help you directly.

Its a very interesting subject. But also kind of important. We need to know what is allowed and what isn't.

Your father, or your marja, won't be there to answer for you on the Day of Judgement. Read the Qur'an, and if you think these practices are in accordance with it, then do so, and if you don't, then refrain from it. Personally, since shirk is the worst possible sin, and if you die upon shirk you won't be forgiven, I wouldn't even want to take the slightest risk. Those who do are (literally) playing with fire.

Edited by Haydar Husayn

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I dont understand the point in doing it. Why would I ask for something from/through Imam Ali when I can ask directly to Allah? If you want something from Allah then pray that he guides you to what is best for yourself. We should have a direct and powerful relationship with Allah without the need of involving others.

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Your father, or your marja, won't be there to answer for you on the Day of Judgement. Read the Qur'an, and if you think these practices are in accordance with it, then do so, and if you don't, then refrain from it. Personally, since shirk is the worst possible sin, and if you die upon shirk you won't be forgiven, I wouldn't even want to take the slightest risk. Those who do are (literally) playing with fire.

Yes ofcourse. But couldnt you tell me where is the red line? Tawassul is well established without a doubt. But anything beyond that...?

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Yes ofcourse. But couldnt you tell me where is the red line? Tawassul is well established without a doubt. But anything beyond that...?

The Qur'an says not to call upon other than Allah, or to rely on other than Allah, so I would suggest that be your red line.

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Thanks for all the answers, but it still isn't very clear to me. May Allah help you all insha'Allah

Ok so let me try to explain again. My father said that when we say ya Ali madad or ya Ali adrikna we aren't doing tawassul. Its actually the belief that they will help you directly without tawassul. Is this shirk? I wonder.. Of course you believe Allah makes it possible for them to help you directly.

Its a very interesting subject. But also kind of important. We need to know what is allowed and what isn't.

Your father, or your marja, won't be there to answer for you on the Day of Judgement. Read the Qur'an, and if you think these practices are in accordance with it, then do so, and if you don't, then refrain from it. Personally, since shirk is the worst possible sin, and if you die upon shirk you won't be forgiven, I wouldn't even want to take the slightest risk. Those who do are (literally) playing with fire.

bro what your saying doesnt make any sense...then whats the point of having a prophet and imam if they cant answer things for you? As the Jafari school of thought believes on the second occulation of Imam Mahdi he placed advisers, and marjas are continuations of advisers, they are representatives of Mahdi, therefore they should know these things. We are not scholars because we dont know everything. This doesnt mean we cant and shouldnt research, but it doesnt mean we start dictating other peoples beliefs. This subject is clear, the fact that there are some of you people who are trying to establish sharia law on what you can do and not do is haram. You can input opinion but you cannot dictate. Anytime anyone asks about tawwaasul or intercession you and and few others call it shirk right away. Are you a prophet of Allah? No, yet you still dont have proof to disprove it and I have given many proofs already. There is no red line because it is Allah that allows it. The only red line is when you give a partner to Allah who is independent. No one is saying dont say Ya Allah, we are saying when you call on anyone other then Allah in general, is that shirk? No. Like I said before, we dont go around saying Ya Ali Ya Ali Ya Ali, constant nonstop. Do you kiss and love your parents? Thats shirk then, from your criteria. Only love Allah. Or that is a "red line", I prefer we dont love anyone but Allah just so we dont commit shirk. Same goes for going to the doctor, lets just not do it just in case we commit shirk. Oh, if your drowning dont call on someone to help you, call on Allah only.....Wether you ask for help or ask for forgiveness other then Allah, on your terms its shirk. Then why would Allah allow this in the quran?

(The brothers of Yusuf) said, “O our father! Ask forgiveness from Allah for our sins. Indeed, we have been sinners.” He said, “I will ask my Lord for forgiveness for you.” Verily, He, and only He, is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.[109]

They CALLED on him for help, not Allah.

and seek means of nearness to Him-Wasilah | The Holy Qur`an (5:35).

Imam `Ali(A.S.) said, "We are the means of connection between the people and Allah." (Al-Mizan, Vol. 5, 362)

Hadrat Zahra(A.S.) also said, "We are the channel of connection between creatures and the Creator."(Sharh Ibn Abi al-Hadid, Vol. 16, 211).

Many ahadith have been narrated in this regard.(Bihar al-Anwar, Vol. 23, 101; Vol. 24, 84; Tafsir Nur al-Thaqalayn, Vol. 1, 626).

((and they ask forgiveness for those on earth...)), .The Holy Qur`an (42:5)that is, the angels who are honored by Allah are to ask forgiveness for the people residing on the earth.

By no means do we consider those of religious status or stature to have any power independent of God; rather we believe that the source of the power of Allah`s Freinds (awliya) is the divine essence alone. The Holy Qur`an says: ((Allah and His Apostle enriched them out of His grace)). (The Holy Qur`an, (9:74).In this verse the name of the Apostle of Allah comes next to the name of Allah. It is clear that this power of the Prophet is a ray of Allah`s power bestowed on him.

Anyway, the issue of recourse (tawassul) and its legitimacy is so clear and obvious that there is no excuse for the bias of the Wahhabis against it or for.

During his illness, Imam Hadi (A.S.) sent someone to Karbala to pray for him by the pure grave of Imam Husayn (A.S.). Being himself an Imam, Imam Hadi`s request shows that Imam Husayn(A.S.) had a higher station and that his pure shrine is a place for the granting of needs.

Since Imam Hadi (A.S.) surprised the man he sent by this request, he explained, "The Apostle of Allah (S.A.W.) was more excellent than the House of God (i.e., the Ka`bah) and the Black Stone; but he cir*****ambulated the Ka`bah and touched and kissed the Black Stone. Likewise, Almighty Allah has made some tracts of land special where He likes supplications to be made and He likes to grant the requests of the supplicants there. The holy shrine of Imam Husayn (A.S.) is one such place."(Kamil al-Ziyarat, 273).

Imam Reza(A.S.) sent me a package as a gift. When I opened it, there was some earth in it. I asked the man who had brought the package, "What is this earth?" He replied, "This earth was taken from the grave of Imam Husayn (A.S.). Imam never sends anything, whether clothes or anything else, to anyone unless he puts some of this earth inside it and says, `By Allah`s will and permission, this earth will give protection against calamities."(Mafatih al-Jinan, 471).

It is narrated that `Abd Allah ibn Abi Ya`fur Jafar arrived in the presence of Imam Sadiq (A.S.) and said, "Someone takes some earth from the grave of Imam Husayn (A.S.) and it becomes helpful for him; while someone else takes some of it but it does not yield the same result. Imam Sadiq (A.S.) replied, "No, by Allah! Whoever takes it and believes that it will be helpful, surely it will be helpful for him."(Mafatih al-Jinan, 471).

http://www.al-islam....ot/tawassul.htm

http://www.al-islam....hapter6b/5.html

http://www.al-islam.org/shiism/9.htm

http://en.shiapen.co...on-wasilah.html

http://shiastudies.n...cle.php?id=2278

http://www.shiachat....-we-say-ya-ali/

Edited by pureethics

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Thanks for all the answers, but it still isn't very clear to me. May Allah help you all insha'Allah

Ok so let me try to explain again. My father said that when we say ya Ali madad or ya Ali adrikna we aren't doing tawassul. Its actually the belief that they will help you directly without tawassul. Is this shirk? I wonder.. Of course you believe Allah makes it possible for them to help you directly.

Its a very interesting subject. But also kind of important. We need to know what is allowed and what isn't.

No, because Allah (swt) has given them the power to do that.... They dont necessarily have to make Du'a and help you. But they do usually to show he is the Khaaliq and they are Makhlooq....

This power is given, thus it can be taken away.

As long as you are aware that imam 'Ali (as) is the Makhlooq and Allah (swt) is the Khaaliq then there is no shirk.....

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Thanks for all the answers, but it still isn't very clear to me. May Allah help you all insha'Allah

Ok so let me try to explain again. My father said that when we say ya Ali madad or ya Ali adrikna we aren't doing tawassul. Its actually the belief that they will help you directly without tawassul. Is this shirk? I wonder.. Of course you believe Allah makes it possible for them to help you directly.

Its a very interesting subject. But also kind of important. We need to know what is allowed and what isn't.

Keep it simple.

If we are drowning in a sea and we see Imam Ali (as) is passing by in a ship. Please call Ya Ali, help me...knowing very well that Allah swt is sending Ali (as) in a ship to help all those who drowning in vast ocean.

Once you entered the ship, you will find that Ali (as) is just an ordinary person who steer the ship to save those who ever call upon Allah swt for helps while they are drowning.

We as humans need Allah swt all the times.... and we are drowning. If we see ships steer by Ahlulbayt (as), call them for help because they are sent to help by the command of Allah swt.

Now, that we are on the ship, make Ali (as) as our Imam so that he can guide us to worship Allah swt as long as we want to be on the ship. If we are willing to worship Allah swt guided by our Imam, then we can continue the voyage on the ocean of uncertainties and troubles and we still be safe.

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Regardless the validity of asking the ma'sumin to pray for us, it's an undeniable fact that the majority of our prayers and supplications teach us to ask directly to Allah (swt). Therefore, logically, asking directly to Allah (swt) is the best mode of prayer, not asking the ma'sumin to pray for us just as some believe.

Note that I'm not talking about sending salam to them or pray to Allah (swt) by mentioning them (example: bi haqqi Muhammad wa ali Muhammad) which both are valid, highly recommended, & indisputable practices.

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I used to belong to shia sect in a full shia locality and this question and its justification was prime reason for me leaving shiism and accepting Quran and sunnah alhamdulillah,A mushriks love for ahlelbayt is of no use!

i have talked with many shia alims and they just stumble badly on this question , enough to ruin their deeds and emaan, coz shirk is zulm-al akbar hence by doing such shirk they also become the greatest zalimoon (surah luqman) whose gravity is worse then rape, fitna ,apostasy, and killing of Imams. Given this i only say that those who indulge in this type of shirk (ya al* *****) are nothing but satans who lead the best people (aal of muhammad SAW) astray . Satan is the worst enemy of AAL muhammad and i am disheartened to see him getting so much success with their "so called followers"

but i also believe that only a few will be safeguarded!

soemone quoted:

(The brothers of Yusuf) said, “O our father! Ask forgiveness from Allah for our sins. Indeed, we have been sinners.” He said, “I will ask my Lord for forgiveness for you.” Verily, He, and only He, is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.[109]

They CALLED on him for help, not Allah.

U SEE even here people asked a prophet to pray to Allah swt and not directly calling YA prophet madad even while PROPHET was ALIVE!!

and know that satan will not show up as a liar \ kafir\hindu he will come in robes of piety and love of ahlebayt to destroy the foundation of emaan itself!

+modern tawassul is INDIRECT shirk through intermediaries

+"ya al* ****" irrespective of intention is shrik al akbar

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I used to belong to shia sect in a full shia locality and this question and its justification was prime reason for me leaving shiism and accepting Quran and sunnah alhamdulillah,A mushriks love for ahlelbayt is of no use!

i have talked with many shia alims and they just stumble badly on this question , enough to ruin their deeds and emaan, coz shirk is zulm-al akbar hence by doing such shirk they also become the greatest zalimoon (surah luqman) whose gravity is worse then rape, fitna ,apostasy, and killing of Imams. Given this i only say that those who indulge in this type of shirk (ya al* *****) are nothing but satans who lead the best people (aal of muhammad SAW) astray . Satan is the worst enemy of AAL muhammad and i am disheartened to see him getting so much success with their "so called followers"

but i also believe that only a few will be safeguarded!

soemone quoted:

(The brothers of Yusuf) said, “O our father! Ask forgiveness from Allah for our sins. Indeed, we have been sinners.” He said, “I will ask my Lord for forgiveness for you.” Verily, He, and only He, is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.[109]

They CALLED on him for help, not Allah.

U SEE even here people asked a prophet to pray to Allah swt and not directly calling YA prophet madad even while PROPHET was ALIVE!!

and know that satan will not show up as a liar \ kafir\hindu he will come in robes of piety and love of ahlebayt to destroy the foundation of emaan itself!

+modern tawassul is INDIRECT shirk through intermediaries

+"ya al* ****" irrespective of intention is shrik al akbar

first off, your typing is terrible and not understandable. Second, we say when we call on the imams or prophets, we are ultimately calling on Allah because it is He who gives the chosen ones the power to do so. No one is challenging Calling on Allah. Btw, technically, they did CALL on the prophet, but the prophet was alive so he responded back. Therefore, yes they did say Oh Prophet! they didnt say Oh Allah, nor did they commit shirk. You call on your parents and friends daily, therefore you commit shirk because you are calling on others then Allah. Your comments have no stance against tawassul, nor can you ever disprove it. If you want to have a discussion make a new thread and ill come and discuss it with you inshAllah. I dont care whether you were shia and now a sunni, it has no liability on this issue. Talk with proof not with emotion and gibberish.

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There still isn't a really good answer to the question as to why we should call on besides Allah SWT...Did Allah command us to that? It seems like He commanded the opposite.

Ye I havent seen any strong evidence either. I havent seen hadith or any quranic evidence that clearly state that the 14 ma'soomeen have the power to help you in this life without tawassul. If there are hadith supporting this then it would be greatly appreciated if someone took the time to find them so we can benefit.

Edited by KareemKarbala

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Ye I havent seen any strong evidence either. I havent seen hadith or any quranic evidence that clearly state that the 14 ma'soomeen have the power to help you in this life without tawassul. If there are hadith supporting this then it would be greatly appreciated if someone took the time to find them so we can benefit.

There still isn't a really good answer to the question as to why we should call on besides Allah SWT...Did Allah command us to that? It seems like He commanded the opposite.

the fact is you are all looking at this wrong. First off, is intercession (tawassul) allowed? Does Allah allow it? Calling unto someone or calling through someone are all from the Shia Jafari School of thought because we believe it is Allah who has the power and wills it to happen. They are both still tawassul because you have Allah as the ultimate either way. Do you not think when you "call" on your parents or friends for help is shirk then? Or when you go to the doctors to get a cure form the doctor and "not Allah" is shirk? This is why we say there is tawassul and intercession because otherwise we would be committing shirk every single day, we will all be doomed. Now the examples I gave you are clearly not shirk, why? Because it is Allah who gave their existence to do that job, it is Allah who gave them the will power to help you. If you take Allah out of the equation it becomes shirk. We use tawassul all the time, as Muslims we ALWAYS acknowledge If it wasnt for Allah it would never happen. There is a reason why the 14 masooum are infallible. Do you not think those who are pure and chosen have the power to help us by the will of He who gave that power? Do you not think people asked help from the prophets and imams during their time? Do you not think if it was shirk they would have said not to "CALL" on them but Allah? This religion came through the prophet. If Allah wanted us to know the religion why not give it to us in our hearts? When we pray 5 times a day we give thanks to our prophets and imams before during and after prayer, is that not shirk? No becuase this is how the prophet prayed. When we ask someone to pray for us, who isnt even chosen by Allah. Or when we hold prayers for the dead, we are interceding on their behalf. No one is saying dont Call on Allah, we are saying can we call on others? Is it allowed? We believe Dua Tawsassul was given to us by Hassan bin Ali Al Askari (as) wrote this dua'a for Abu Muhammad. Now for the verses from the quran and hadith:

No intercessor can plead with Him except by His permission.[103]

Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His permission?[104]

And they cannot intercede, except for Him with whom He is pleased.[106]

None shall have the power of intercession except one who has received permission or a promise from Allah, the Most Gracious.[107]

Intercession with Him profits none except for those He permits.[108]

(The brothers of Yusuf) said, “O our father! Ask forgiveness from Allah for our sins. Indeed, we have been sinners.” He said, “I will ask my Lord for forgiveness for you.” Verily, He, and only He, is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.[109]

The Intercessors are five: the Quran, one's near relatives, trusts (amanah), your Prophet, and the family of your Prophet (the Ahlul Bayt).[112]

"O' you who believe! Be mindful (of your duties) to Allah, and seek the means of approaching toward Him." (Quran 5:35)

-This is clear proof of Tawassul/Intercession

.Had they, when they had wronged themselves, come to you and asked Allah's forgiveness and the Apostle had asked forgiveness for them, they would certainly have found Allah Most-Propitious, Most-Merciful. (Holy Qur'an 4: 64).

[Pickthal 3:159] ………… So pardon them and ask forgiveness for them.

[Pickthal 4:106-107] And seek forgiveness of Allah (for others). Lo! Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful. And plead not on behalf of (people) who deceive themselves.

[Pickthal 8:33] But Allah would not punish them while thou wast with them, nor will He punish them while they seek forgiveness.

[Pickthal 9:80-84] Ask forgiveness for them (O Muhammad), or ask not forgiveness for them; though thou ask forgiveness for them seventy times Allah will not forgive them. And never (O Muhammad) pray for one of them who dieth, nor stand by his grave.

[Pickthal 9:103] Take alms of their wealth, wherewith thou mayst purify them and mayst make them grow, and pray for them. Lo! thy prayer is an assuagement for them.

[Pickthal 9:113] It is not for the Prophet, and those who believe, to pray for the forgiveness of idolaters even though they may be near of kin (to them) after it hath become clear that they are people of hell-fire.

[Pickthal 24:62] So, if they ask thy leave for some affair of theirs, give leave to whom thou wilt of them, and ask for them forgiveness of Allah.

[Pickthal 47:19] ..So know (O Muhammad) that there is no Allah save Allah, and ask forgiveness for thy sin and for believing men and believing women.

[Pickthal 60:12] �then accept their allegiance and ask Allah to forgive them.

[Pickthal 63:5-6] And when it is said unto them: Come! The messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you! They [the hypocrites] avert their faces and thou seest them turning away, disdainful. Whether thou ask forgiveness for them or ask not forgiveness for them is all one for them; Allah will not forgive them.

[Yusufali 12:93-96] “Go with this my shirt, and cast it over the face of my father: he will come to see (clearly). Then come ye (here) to me together with all your family.”When the caravan left (Egypt), their father said: “I do indeed scent the presence of Joseph: Nay, think me not a dotard.” They said: “By Allah! truly thou art in thine old wandering mind.” Then when the bearer of the good news came, He cast (the shirt) over his face, and he forthwith regained clear sight. He said: “Did I not say to you, ‘I know from Allah that which ye know not?’”

- He went with the prophet for the cure, not Allah. Why didnt the prophet say ask Allah?

(The brothers of Yusuf) said, “O our father! Ask forgiveness from Allah for our sins. Indeed, we have been sinners.” He said, “I will ask my Lord for forgiveness for you.” Verily, He, and only He, is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.[109]

"Alike it is for them whether you seek forgiveness for them or seek not forgiveness for them; Never will God forgive them..." (63:6)

Hadith:

Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq, the sixth Imam of the school of Ahlul Bayt, at the time of his martyrdom called his relatives and companions and said, “Verily, our intercession will never reach one who takes the prayers lightly.”[113]

The Intercessors are five: the Quran, one's near relatives, trusts (amanah), your Prophet, and the family of your Prophet (the Ahlul Bayt).[112]

Each prophet before me asked Allah for something which he was granted, and I saved my request until the Day of Judgment for intercession on behalf of my nation.[111]

Imam `Ali(A.S.) said, "We are the means of connection between the people and Allah." (Al-Mizan, Vol. 5, 362)

Hadrat Zahra(A.S.) also said, "We are the channel of connection between creatures and the Creator."(Sharh Ibn Abi al-Hadid, Vol. 16, 211).

Many ahadith have been narrated in this regard.(Bihar al-Anwar, Vol. 23, 101; Vol. 24, 84; Tafsir Nur al-Thaqalayn, Vol. 1, 626).

These are some that I have found. I suggest you check out the links and especially the videos that I have posted. I know you havnt watched or looked at those links. Its up to you if you want to use tawassul. Its like asking a friend to ask the boss to give you a new job. You know because your friend has such a high status with his boss, and the boss loves him soooo much there is not way the boss will deny his referal, unless he wills it. This concept is the same we use. We believe there is more hiqma on asking through the prophets and imams.

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Its not about tawassul. I believe tawassul is possible. I however have my doubts when it comes to asking ma'soomeen without tawassul. Most people dont refer to tawassul when saying ya Ali madad. They believe the ma'soom can help them without even asking Allah. Isn't that something different?

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Its not about tawassul. I believe tawassul is possible. I however have my doubts when it comes to asking ma'soomeen without tawassul. Most people dont refer to tawassul when saying ya Ali madad. They believe the ma'soom can help them without even asking Allah. Isn't that something different?

Well, if you are a shia, you MUST and OBVIOUSLY believe that Allah is the most powerful. It is Allah who has given the imams and prophets the permission and status. You cannot judge people because they say Ya Ali. Im sure no shia denies it is Allah who is the ultimate helper in this call, without Allah there would be no "Ya Ali". If their intention is without Allah, then yes it is shirk. For example, all of us muslims pray towards a black cube, is that not shirk? No, because our intention is clean and Allah commanded it. In this case, Allah commands it and our intention is clean. wa salaam

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