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In the Name of God بسم الله

Argument With A Friend...

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chrysler786

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(bismillah)

(salam)

I recently had an argument with a friend I know from Uni on facebook, after he said the nurse involved in the royal family incident who comitted suicide would be going straight to hell because she is a Hindu.

I argued that you cannot say whether an individual will go to hell because it is ultimately Allah's (swt) decision. He sent me verses from the Qur'an as well as quotes from Hadit about suicide etc. His point was that anyone who commits suicide is definately going straight to hell. He told me about if you ask any scholar they would agree with his point. I managed to find a video of a scholar who agreed with my point. He told me that he would not watch the video and said I had zero knoledge of the Qur'an.

The next day he spoke about how the X-Factor judges looked 'hot' but it was a shame they would be "going to hell." I asked what if they repented to which he replied "as if they're going to hell." I saw on his twitter he told Nasri to go to hell as well. When I asked him about this, he said it was because he had a "Christian girlfriend." I mentioned to him that he is speaking as if he is a 100% perfect and pious Muslim who makes no mistakes. He said "I don't make mistakes." I reminded him that he recently backbited against a Muslim brother to me. The response he gave implied that backbiting is literally talking about someone whilst their back is turned and are closeby to you. I informed him that backbiting is speaking ill of someone when they are absent. He then questioned me whether I pray, donate to charity and pray taraweeh (I'm a Shia and he knows). I sent him an explanation about backbiting and he told me that "shia muslims will probably go to hell like you" and then blocked me. I sent him an email (since I could not send a FB message) that he speaks of Nasri's girlfriend yet he told me about him wanting to give oral sex to a Muslim girl he knows. I said I would pray for him despite what he's said to me (I'm not even sure whether he the email was sent, since I've been blocked on FB).

I must mention a little about his background. He told me that he was diagnosed with depression by his doctor. He has little to no friends, and did not have any friends during secondary school (high school). He told me about how he was bullied by non-muslims throughout his life for his faith as well as his looks. People who he knew from previous schools do not accept his friend requests and block him, male and female. I'm not sure whether he is mentally unstable, or just been brainwashed by extremism due to lonliness and completely unaware of himself as being a major hypocrite.

I am worried that he will do harm to others as well as himself possibly. I have been praying for him that he overcomes his depression. The thing is, I'm not sure whether he brought it upon himself due to his views or he genuinly a bad person who I should completely avoid. What can I do in regards to this situation?

Thank you and apologies for the long post!

Edited by chrysler786
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"It is better to deem a thousand Kafirs muslim in the eyes of Allah than to deem one muslim kafir" AbuHanifa

The lowest quality of an ignorant man is that he lays claim to knowledge which he does not deserve. His most common characteristic is ignorance of his own ignorance, and the most extreme aspect of his ignorance is to simply reject knowledge.

— Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (as)

Among the signs of ignorance is arguing with irrational people”

- Imam Hussain (as)

“Hate no one, no matter how much they’ve wronged you. Live humbly, no matter how wealthy you become. Think positively, no matter how hard life is. Give much, even if you’ve been given little. Keep in touch with the ones who have forgotten you, and forgive who has wronged you, and do not stop praying for the best for those you love.”

- Imam Ali (as)

Edited by Jaysro
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Your friend sounds like he has a personality disorder - he needs professional help. If you know his family perhaps you could have a word and voice your concerns, of course this has to be done delicately...mental illness is a huge stigma in our communities, the amount of Asian girls patients that I have seen would rather say that they are possessed than suffering from a mental illness is awfully high.

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Brother these debates are totally useless and futile. Rather than looking at us and our actions, who are we to worry about what happened to others. Besides gaining Jannah (heaven) is not the goal for a Muslims (at least for us Shia), the real goal is seeking nearness to Allah (swt).

Judge your actions according to this criteria rather than if one would or would not go to heavens. Heavens is only a byproduct (side gift) of our actions inshAllah, but it is by no means the ultimate goal.

For a true momin, Jannah or heaven is cheap. :). Like a converted friend of mine says, who would want to go to heavens if one is living under the banner of Mahdi (as).

Edited by Waiting for HIM
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She is burning in hell, there's no doubt about it. She died as a kaffir, and, on top of that, she killed herself.

I'm sorry, who are you again? :huh: Oh thats right, a human like everyone else. If she was wrong, Allah (swt) will judge her, no one needs your verdict.

Back to OP. Sadly, going to to a school with quite a few Muslims and through family/family friends, I have had many experiences like the one you mentioned above. From what I have seen, it seems that the people who do this have been brought up in homes where they are forced to believe in Islam (with no explanations) and when they go to school/college/uni, they realise that everyone isn't forced to do what they have to. Consequently, they start preaching their views, but they also feel that they want to do things that others do too, and a conflict arises within themselves. They preach Islam, like they are perfect Muslims, they condem people who don't practice Islam properly, yet, they partake in haram activities. The best thing to do would be to just ignore such people; they will continue to live a paradox of a life and won't want to hear what you are saying. You'll just stress yourself out by trying to reason with them.

Its really not as rare as people on here seem to think it is. If it is a mental disorder, I would be very interesting in hearing more.

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I'm sorry, who are you again? :huh: Oh thats right, a human like everyone else. If she was wrong, Allah (swt) will judge her, no one needs your verdict.

Back to OP. Sadly, going to to a school with quite a few Muslims and through family/family friends, I have had many experiences like the one you mentioned above. From what I have seen, it seems that the people who do this have been brought up in homes where they are forced to believe in Islam (with no explanations) and when they go to school/college/uni, they realise that everyone isn't forced to do what they have to. Consequently, they start preaching their views, but they also feel that they want to do things that others do too, and a conflict arises within themselves. They preach Islam, like they are perfect Muslims, they condem people who don't practice Islam properly, yet, they partake in haram activities. The best thing to do would be to just ignore such people; they will continue to live a paradox of a life and won't want to hear what you are saying. You'll just stress yourself out by trying to reason with them.

Its really not as rare as people on here seem to think it is. If it is a mental disorder, I would be very interesting in hearing more.

Why do people get bothered about these issues? Why are you so scared of saying "she's in hell now", while instead, you say, "let Allah (swt) judge"? If you don't need my verdict, then let's see what you'll think about Imam Al-Sadiq's (as) verdict:

Imam Al-Sadiq (as) said: Whoever intentionally kills himself, he will permanently be in hell."

A-Kafi, Volume 7, Page 45

Edited by Kai
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Why do people get bothered about these issues? Why are you so scared of saying "she's in hell now", while instead, you say, "let Allah (swt) judge"? If you don't need my verdict, then let's see what you'll think about Imam Al-Sadiq's (as) verdict:

Imam Al-Sadiq (as) said: Whoever intentionally kills himself, he will permanently be in hell."

A-Kafi, Volume 7, Page 45

There's a reason why Allah (swt) refers to himself as The Greatest Judge. You are very foolish if you think that you can judge someone else when all you are able to see is their exterior for the time that you know them. In addition, I have too many faults to fix within myself before I die, that I don't have the time, nor ability to take on Allah (swt) role, if that makes me 'scared' then so be it.

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Thank you for the responses.

Your friend sounds like he has a personality disorder - he needs professional help. If you know his family perhaps you could have a word and voice your concerns, of course this has to be done delicately...mental illness is a huge stigma in our communities, the amount of Asian girls patients that I have seen would rather say that they are possessed than suffering from a mental illness is awfully high.

Unfortunately I don't know any of his family members. He's told me that they are usually busy so he "suffers in silence." It's interesting you mention personality disorder because a girl who he was speaking to online decided to block him and told him he wished he was dead because she found out he was messaging her friends. He created another account with a very similar name (his first name added to his middle and second name) and messaged her saying that he was new to FB and wished to add her as a friend. Strangely, she accepted his request, which I think is down to her being an attention-seeker. Surprisingly, he's developed a close relationship with her and there is a possibilty that they will meet in real life. The problem is, she will realise that it is actually him and she was being lied to all this time. He's effectively created another person who talks to this girl.

He decided to tweet this girl's sister "Hi gorgeous how are you? How's X? Take care of my girl I miss her." The sister replied understandbly is a rude fashion and told him not to call her gorgeous, her sister is not your girl and "F off."

He told me of an incident from school where he kept telling a girl he liked her which prompted her to go to the headteacher and was informed that police would be involved if he continued. I have a feeling that he did something quite disturbing which has made everyone avoid and block him on FB.

In addition to his interaction with girls, he's told me how he's been messaging a girl from Uni but she told him she "wanted nothing to do with him" and blocked him on FB. Despite this, he's continued to stalk the girl by looking at pictures her friends put up (which were on public setting). He follows her on twitter and has sent her numerous tweets and has even sent tweets to her brother. He continues to message the girl and send her tweets even though she doesn't reply.

As I see his tweets now, I can see his messaging various girls, including this one tweet where he says "you're a hot [Edited Out]. follow me." His next tweet is a response to a girl's picture which is an extract from a Hadith regarding protection from the grave. He tells the girl to read and recite Surah Malik. I am very worried for his general wellbeing as the level of hypocrisy is unbelievable.

He also has very low self-esteem. He's told me how one of his teachers had compared his facial features to that of the male genetalia. Girls would come up to him and call him ugly straight to his face. He's also quite socially awkward and is generally lacks in social skills and etiquette.

Edited by chrysler786
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Thank you for the responses.

Unfortunately I don't know any of his family members. He's told me that they are usually busy so he "suffers in silence." It's interesting you mention personality disorder because a girl who he was speaking to online decided to block him and told him he wished he was dead because she found out he was messaging her friends. He created another account with a very similar name (his first name added to his middle and second name) and messaged her saying that he was new to FB and wished to add her as a friend. Strangely, she accepted his request, which I think is down to her being an attention-seeker. Surprisingly, he's developed a close relationship with her and there is a possibilty that they will meet in real life. The problem is, she will realise that it is actually him and she was being lied to all this time. He's effectively created another person who talks to this girl.

He decided to tweet this girl's sister "Hi gorgeous how are you? How's X? Take care of my girl I miss her." The sister replied understandbly is a rude fashion and told him not to call her gorgeous, her sister is not your girl and "F off."

He told me of an incident from school where he kept telling a girl he liked her which prompted her to go to the headteacher and was informed that police would be involved if he continued. I have a feeling that he did something quite disturbing which has made everyone avoid and block him on FB.

In addition to his interaction with girls, he's told me how he's been messaging a girl from Uni but she told him she "wanted nothing to do with him" and blocked him on FB. Despite this, he's continued to stalk the girl by looking at pictures her friends put up (which were on public setting). He follows her on twitter and has sent her numerous tweets and has even sent tweets to her brother. He continues to message the girl and send her tweets even though she doesn't reply.

As I see his tweets now, I can see his messaging various girls, including this one tweet where he says "you're a hot [Edited Out]. follow me." His next tweet is a response to a girl's picture which is an extract from a Hadith regarding protection from the grave. He tells the girl to read and recite Surah Malik. I am very worried for his general wellbeing as the level of hypocrisy is unbelievable.

He also has very low self-esteem. He's told me how one of his teachers had compared his facial features to that of the male genetalia. Girls would come up to him and call him ugly straight to his face. He's also quite socially awkward and is generally lacks in social skills and etiquette.

why are you friends with someone like this, Imam's say never be friends with people like this, find good friends, once you knew he was bad you should have ignored him....

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why are you friends with someone like this, Imam's say never be friends with people like this, find good friends, once you knew he was bad you should have ignored him....

I guess the only reason I kept in contact with him is because I felt sorry him being depressed and I was was one of the very few people he spoke to. I was also afraid he would commit suicide (God forbid) due to his depression.

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Dont give up on him. keep praying that he is guided. You could potentially save his life and the life of others. He clearly has hatred for non-muslims, and has a dangerous mindset which means he's a potential time bomb.

He may Blow at any time (pun not intended :P)

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You guys cannot judge the nurse because you dont know how much of the truth she really knew... Like one of my professors was from china and converted to Christainty when he came to America, but he asked me if wearing a head scarf was part of my pakistani culture. I told him I wore it because of my religion, which is Islam, and then he asked me what islam was lol

So you cant judge her because only Allah knows how much she really knew... I mean, if you can prove that she knew a lot about true islam but chose not to follow it, then okay, claim she's gonna go to Hell, but i highly doubt you could prove it...

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You guys cannot judge the nurse because you dont know how much of the truth she really knew... Like one of my professors was from china and converted to Christainty when he came to America, but he asked me if wearing a head scarf was part of my pakistani culture. I told him I wore it because of my religion, which is Islam, and then he asked me what islam was lol

So you cant judge her because only Allah knows how much she really knew... I mean, if you can prove that she knew a lot about true islam but chose not to follow it, then okay, claim she's gonna go to Hell, but i highly doubt you could prove it...

People need to understand life isn't jsut a pass or fail class

God judges you with what is in your heart, and neither of us know what she believed or was going through

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@ OP: If you're a lady, I strongly advise you to stay away from this guy. I think he has some deep mental issues turning him into a psycopath. I understand you're concerned for his well being but in my opinion, you could ask his family members to look into it.

With his such hypocrisy, you should be safe now than sorry later.

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@ OP: If you're a lady, I strongly advise you to stay away from this guy. I think he has some deep mental issues turning him into a psycopath. I understand you're concerned for his well being but in my opinion, you could ask his family members to look into it.

With his such hypocrisy, you should be safe now than sorry later.

I'm a guy myself. I don't know any of his family members. Even if I wanted to talk to him, (which I don't) I can't because he's blocked me on FB. The only thing I can do is pray for him.

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It sounds like you may be better off ignoring this person; he wants attention. He will say and do nearly anything for attention. Good attention, bad attention, it doesn't matter.

I think it might be deeper than attention-seeking. It might be a mental disorder as others have also mentioned. However, attention-seeking could be apart of his instability.

Edited by chrysler786
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Sorry to keep adding to this topic but one of the reasons I kept in contact with him is because I was afraid that he would commit suicide due to depression. Ironically, we stopped speaking to each other due to an argument about someone who committed suicide. Even though he feels strongly about the destination of people who kill themselves, is there a chance he might do the same?

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I once heard a scholar explain how a person who didn't believe in Allah and died a kaffir was in hell but the fire was tolerable for him or her. And they had a house in hell and there was sustinence going into their house for them because they did good deeds in life. Maybe someone can shed more light on this. I think Rasul Allah (pbuh) probably saw this during the miraj but I could be wrong. Thoughts anyone?

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in the holy book of quran is stated who ever kills himself intentionally (suicide) he goes directly to hell because there is no need to kill yourself, you die when Allah wants you to so if Allah wrote that you will be hit by a bus tommorrow then thats how you are going to die, you cannot kill yourself and believe i will go to heaven, no one can change how they die, they could in real life but that would lead straight to hell

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You tell him that you are not allowed to consider someone a kafir until after they die, because they could repent and turn to Allah(s.w.a). There are two hadith that I know of about this subject. The first was about a Islamic scholar and prominent companion of one of the Imams (I forget which one). He was considered alim and faqih and was a close companion to the Imam(a.s) but there was something in his heart that noone knew of. A few days before he died, he renounced his faith in Islam and died a kafir.

Then there is many stories about people who fought against the Imams becoming Muslims and mumin after meeting the Imams. If you would have known me when I was 16 or 17, you would have thought for sure this guy is going to hell. I don't want to elaborate, but trust me on this.

As for suicide, it is a major sin, and since you cut off the option for repentance by killing yourself, most likely someone who commits suicide will spend some time in hell. I would say the act of suicide is probably the most foolish or one of the most foolish actions one can commit. The reason why it is a major sin is because one who does this loses hope in the mercy of Allah(s.w.a) and this is equivalent for being ungrateful to Allah(s.w.a). Of course, there are some extenuating circumstances, like if the person is weak minded or mentally handicapped.

I once heard a scholar explain how a person who didn't believe in Allah and died a kaffir was in hell but the fire was tolerable for him or her. And they had a house in hell and there was sustinence going into their house for them because they did good deeds in life. Maybe someone can shed more light on this. I think Rasul Allah (pbuh) probably saw this during the miraj but I could be wrong. Thoughts anyone?

I never heard a hadith like this, sorry. Hell is a very horrible place which noone can imagine how truely horrible it is. Hell is the place of Allah(s.w.a)'s punishment, and this punishment cannot be withstood by the Heavens or the Earth, as it says in Dua Kumayl. It also says in the Quran that when the guilty see the fire, if they owned the entire earth and everything in it and on it, they would be willing to give it as a ransom to keep them from the fires of hell. So please don't make light of what hell is by giving hadith that you think you might have heard. Sorry to say it this way, but I don't want anyone to be mislead about this subject. Hell is something we should all be very afraid from.

Edited by Abu Hadi
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Imam Al-Sadiq (as) said: Whoever intentionally kills himself, he will permanently be in hell."

A-Kafi, Volume 7, Page 45

Just a general remark, but the nurse was actually a Catholic, not a Hindu, which is probably worse for her since as a Catholic she would have known the suicide is a mortal sin, so can't claim ignorance on that issue when she is judged.

Nevertheless, she was a kafir (probably a mushrik too, which is another problem), but do you really think every kafir automatically goes to Hell? That would be a bit unfortunate for those who never had the opportunity of hearing about Islam. Now, chances are, she did hear something about Islam, but we don't know how much, in what form, etc. Surely Allah's mercy and justice demand that the amount of knowledge a person has affects the way in which they will be judged. Some relevant verses on this subject:

To be honest, I have no idea whether she will be in Hell or not. I think she behaved in an incredibly selfish and stupid way over quite a trivial issue, so along with everything else, it's certainly possible. But I think it's better to leave these judgments up to Allah. He may choose to forgive many people who would otherwise deserve to go to Hell.

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Just a general remark, but the nurse was actually a Catholic, not a Hindu, which is probably worse for her since as a Catholic she would have known the suicide is a mortal sin, so can't claim ignorance on that issue when she is judged.

Nevertheless, she was a kafir (probably a mushrik too, which is another problem), but do you really think every kafir automatically goes to Hell? That would be a bit unfortunate for those who never had the opportunity of hearing about Islam. Now, chances are, she did hear something about Islam, but we don't know how much, in what form, etc. Surely Allah's mercy and justice demand that the amount of knowledge a person has affects the way in which they will be judged. Some relevant verses on this subject: http://www.shiachat....h-in-the-quran/

To be honest, I have no idea whether she will be in Hell or not. I think she behaved in an incredibly selfish and stupid way over quite a trivial issue, so along with everything else, it's certainly possible. But I think it's better to leave these judgments up to Allah. He may choose to forgive many people who would otherwise deserve to go to Hell.

In this day and age, the kuffar (adult and sane), who live in the West, will have no excuse for being ignorant about Islam. They have access to the Internet and other facilities that will give them pretty everything they need to know about Islam. I think that most of the kuffar (sane, mature, live in the West) here who are ignorant about Islam, will definitely go to hell. I can guarantee that most of them would not even care about religion at all, their only goal is to enjoy this life. They, as human beings, have a duty to search for the truth, and investigate every religion. Why should they get a free pass to heaven just because of their laziness?

Also, about the kuffar who have received the 'distorted' version of Islam, they too, will not have an excuse. They should be skeptical of whatever they hear, and they should double check and verify that whatever they hear from the media, or anyone else, is an accurate depiction of Islam.

There are exceptions, of course. I'm pretty sure that a lot of the kuffar who live in places like Africa, will go to heaven

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Yes ,indeed. I was quite shocked that anyone could believe that I am God. But, it seems you have realized your mistake. I commend you for that. Welcome back to Islam.

But he is a male and born to Muslims. So where does he return?

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I think the main issue is, to state whether someone is definately going to hell or heaven? We don't know our own destination, so how can we say for sure that someone else is ending up in heaven or hell?

My ''friend'' presumed that she was a Hindu after hearing she was from India. As mentioned previously, she was actually a Catholic. If we make presumptions about someone's faith but it turns to be false, how can we be sure of our own destiny, let alone someone else's?

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She is burning in hell, there's no doubt about it. She died as a kaffir, and, on top of that, she killed herself.

(bismillah)

Sunnis as well as shias sometimes like to act as if they are God and decide who goes to hell and who goes to heaven. Guess what my friend, even if it is clearly stated in Quran and in sahih hadith that so and so will go to hell for doing so and so, you STILL do not have the knowledge Allah swt has about this person and you still cannot make any judgements on their behalf. Your oppinion is your oppinion and you may think that they will end up in hell, but then again someone might be looking at you and thinking the same thing. People must take their precautions to not voice the opinions that they hold about certain things. (as)

(bismillah)

(salam)

I recently had an argument with a friend I know from Uni on facebook, after he said the nurse involved in the royal family incident who comitted suicide would be going straight to hell because she is a Hindu.

I argued that you cannot say whether an individual will go to hell because it is ultimately Allah's (swt) decision. He sent me verses from the Qur'an as well as quotes from Hadit about suicide etc. His point was that anyone who commits suicide is definately going straight to hell. He told me about if you ask any scholar they would agree with his point. I managed to find a video of a scholar who agreed with my point. He told me that he would not watch the video and said I had zero knoledge of the Qur'an.

The next day he spoke about how the X-Factor judges looked 'hot' but it was a shame they would be "going to hell." I asked what if they repented to which he replied "as if they're going to hell." I saw on his twitter he told Nasri to go to hell as well. When I asked him about this, he said it was because he had a "Christian girlfriend." I mentioned to him that he is speaking as if he is a 100% perfect and pious Muslim who makes no mistakes. He said "I don't make mistakes." I reminded him that he recently backbited against a Muslim brother to me. The response he gave implied that backbiting is literally talking about someone whilst their back is turned and are closeby to you. I informed him that backbiting is speaking ill of someone when they are absent. He then questioned me whether I pray, donate to charity and pray taraweeh (I'm a Shia and he knows). I sent him an explanation about backbiting and he told me that "shia muslims will probably go to hell like you" and then blocked me. I sent him an email (since I could not send a FB message) that he speaks of Nasri's girlfriend yet he told me about him wanting to give oral sex to a Muslim girl he knows. I said I would pray for him despite what he's said to me (I'm not even sure whether he the email was sent, since I've been blocked on FB).

I must mention a little about his background. He told me that he was diagnosed with depression by his doctor. He has little to no friends, and did not have any friends during secondary school (high school). He told me about how he was bullied by non-muslims throughout his life for his faith as well as his looks. People who he knew from previous schools do not accept his friend requests and block him, male and female. I'm not sure whether he is mentally unstable, or just been brainwashed by extremism due to lonliness and completely unaware of himself as being a major hypocrite.

I am worried that he will do harm to others as well as himself possibly. I have been praying for him that he overcomes his depression. The thing is, I'm not sure whether he brought it upon himself due to his views or he genuinly a bad person who I should completely avoid. What can I do in regards to this situation?

Thank you and apologies for the long post!

(bismillah) You will come across ignorant and stubborn people in life. Personally, I do not even waste my time with them. If you have the patience, i guarantee you will spend your life arguing and these people will stay stubborn unless by some miracle you are convincing enough, in which most cases none of us are.

Dear Allah,

Thanks for popping in and informing us.

Your slave.

LOOOOL !

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