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In the Name of God بسم الله
warisshah2012

Why Stop At Only 12 Imams? An Intellectual Query

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On 12/13/2012 at 6:03 AM, Waiting for HIM said:

Frankly the OP question is stupid, devoid of any reason.

It's asking why there are only 124,000 Prophets and why not 376,000 etc.; or why we have four divine books, why not seven.

This topic does not deserve to be in the "thinker's discourse", there is nothing intellectual about this thread

Frankly this comment is stupid. 

This subject is fascinating and I would love to learn more. 

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4 hours ago, funklebits said:

This subject is fascinating and I would love to learn more. 

Why the number of months are 12?

I come to know that this is a divine arrangement as mentioned in Qur'an:

إِنَّ عِدَّةَ الشُّهُورِ عِندَ اللّهِ اثْنَا عَشَرَ شَهْرًا فِي كِتَابِ اللّهِ يَوْمَ خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَات وَالأَرْضَ

9:36 BEHOLD, the number of months, in the sight of God, is twelve months, [laid down] in God's decree on the day when He created the heavens and the Earth;

I think this is sufficient as answer to OP.

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On 5/22/2018 at 6:45 PM, Guest Christian said:

Because there were 12 disiples of Christ. The Catholic Christian church believes their leader, the Pope, to be infallible. The current Pope is in the line of Apostolic succession with the first Pope being Saint Peter, one of Jesus' original 12 disciples. There were 12 tribes of Israel and 12 disciples of Christ.

Guest Christian could be onto something.

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On 5/22/2018 at 5:45 PM, Guest Christian said:

Because there were 12 disiples of Christ. The Catholic Christian church believes their leader, the Pope, to be infallible. The current Pope is in the line of Apostolic succession with the first Pope being Saint Peter, one of Jesus' original 12 disciples. There were 12 tribes of Israel and 12 disciples of Christ.

Genesis (17-18:20) 

"And as for Isma'il, I have blessed him, and I have made him fruitful. And I have truly multiplied him, he will beget twelve leaders and I will provide for him a large nation." 

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On 6/11/2019 at 4:07 PM, IbnSina said:

Genesis (17-18:20) 

"And as for Isma'il, I have blessed him, and I have made him fruitful. And I have truly multiplied him, he will beget twelve leaders and I will provide for him a large nation." 

Please forgive this question, but I want to make sure I understand this right,

 

The reason there are 12 Imans is because of the use of 12 historically in our faith, like in the examples given in the past few comments?

Also are the Hadiths that,

@Ethics

Quoted the main Hadiths used for this or is there more?

Please know that I am in no way trying to be a smart mouth or fool. Just trying to find all the puzzle pieces.

Edited by funklebits
I'm on mobile and it posted before I could finish my comment about another users post. I pray for the day a mobile app is made for this amazing site.

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On 12/19/2012 at 8:18 PM, JawzofDETH said:

Simple. Moses had 12, Jesus had 12. Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) didn't have 13 or more.

Seems good point, but here is my two relevant questions,

1-Jesus 12 disciples also include Juda?? the one who ditched him?? or let me know if I am wrong?

2- Other/Above mentioned Prophet even had 12 disciples or Imams (with or after them) but I believe Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was very different in position & nature, by nature he was the last Nabi and after him no Prophet will come, so question is how is it possible that Imamat limit/ended on just 12 Imams

3- Imams basic function is to give Hadayat & be the proof of Allah (his Hujjat) & His Authority on Earth , Unity of Command, etc

         If Imams are Hadaya, then how can we be left on Ulimas and Ayatullahs for Hadayat

         If Imams are Proof of Allah (Hujjat) then why we can't see them and see the Proof of Allah

         If Imams are Authority, then how come we can accept authority of any Ulima / Ayatullahs

         If Imams are Unity of Command, then how come we can look upon others for this function.

Hope I may get logical replies on the above mentioned questions.

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57 minutes ago, skaswani said:

but here is my two relevant questions,

How many questions?

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On 12/9/2012 at 2:48 AM, warisshah2012 said:

Salam

I am reading about Imamate and it is very interesting intellectually but here are some questions I have:

If we have a divinely appointed Imam to guide us on the way of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).) why only stop after 12? Why not continue with one Imam after another till Imam Mahdi?

I would like you to answer this without referring to the Sunni hadith books about the hadith of 12 caliphs or similar narrations in your own books but only using intellect and logic. See, I am almost convinced that the idea of a divinely appointed ruler for the Muslim Ummah, who is protected from sin is a good one and it makes sense to my intellect but since we do not know when the Day of Judgement will be and when the world will end, shouldn't there be a continuous line of Imams, one after the other, until the last one (whom we can call Imam Mahdi ((عليه السلام).) ?

I am a Sunni Muslim and a member of a Sufi tariqah but have recently been reading about Shi'ism as well and this question came to me.

Salamun alaikum,

Even intellect has a limit because sometimes we cannot rationalise the reasons for understanding. For every reason FOR having 12 Imams you could think of every reason AGAINST having 12 Imams. For example, the early Shia scholars like Shaykh Tusi in his book al Ghaybah tried to rationalise it by saying Allah is testing the believers to see how they would hold on to the knowledge revealed on the Prophet and taught by the Imams. However, you find people today against the idea of an Imam on occultation will say it is irrational having an Imam which we cannot see "guide" us through this period. Most rationally minded people would say what use is a hidden Imam who cannot give guidance?

Do you see how even logic can be subjective in these matters?

The number of 12 was ultimately decided from the hadiths and when Imam al-Askari's son had gone into hiding. He did not explicitly appoint the next Imam and instead appointed a trusted chief amongst the Shiah who was usually responsible for managing financial affairs. This created confusion amongst some of the Shiah which led scholars to compile books proving the 12 Imams and occultation from hadith that had been in circulation before the occultation.

This is also evidenced by other groups (like the Waqifites [those who stop]) who made similar occultation claims upon the passing on the 6th or 7th Imam for example. In the eyes of the Shiah scholars this was further proof of the occultation theory existing pre-twelth-Imam.

For logic and intellect it would have to be a test from Allah to see how good we are at being faithful to the truth. Some Shiah scholars say the period of occultation is the period of ijtihad (unlike some Sunnis who say the doors to itjihad had closed). Ultimately the number 12 has to come from hadith which is the second source of law in Islam for Sunni and Shiah.

It was narrated that Sa'eed bin Musayyab said:
"We were with Umm Salamah and we were discussing Mahdi. She said: 'I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: "Mahdi will be one of the descendents of Fatimah."
 
Grade Hasan (Darussalam)  
 

 : Sunan Ibn Majah 4086

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) observed:

What will be your state when the son of Mary descends amongst you and there will be an Imam amongst you?
Reference

 : Sahih Muslim 155 d

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by ali47

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On 12/9/2012 at 3:48 AM, warisshah2012 said:

Salam

I am reading about Imamate and it is very interesting intellectually but here are some questions I have:

If we have a divinely appointed Imam to guide us on the way of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).) why only stop after 12? Why not continue with one Imam after another till Imam Mahdi?

I would like you to answer this without referring to the Sunni hadith books about the hadith of 12 caliphs or similar narrations in your own books but only using intellect and logic. See, I am almost convinced that the idea of a divinely appointed ruler for the Muslim Ummah, who is protected from sin is a good one and it makes sense to my intellect but since we do not know when the Day of Judgement will be and when the world will end, shouldn't there be a continuous line of Imams, one after the other, until the last one (whom we can call Imam Mahdi ((عليه السلام).) ?

I am a Sunni Muslim and a member of a Sufi tariqah but have recently been reading about Shi'ism as well and this question came to me.

Salam,

 

According to Zaydi Shia's there is only one Mahdi who will be born before the End of Times.

'Till his birth every descendant of Imam Hassan or Hussain who meets the qualification of Imam can become one.

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On 12/9/2012 at 7:48 AM, warisshah2012 said:

Salam

I am reading about Imamate and it is very interesting intellectually but here are some questions I have:

If we have a divinely appointed Imam to guide us on the way of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).) why only stop after 12? Why not continue with one Imam after another till Imam Mahdi?

I would like you to answer this without referring to the Sunni hadith books about the hadith of 12 caliphs or similar narrations in your own books but only using intellect and logic. See, I am almost convinced that the idea of a divinely appointed ruler for the Muslim Ummah, who is protected from sin is a good one and it makes sense to my intellect but since we do not know when the Day of Judgement will be and when the world will end, shouldn't there be a continuous line of Imams, one after the other, until the last one (whom we can call Imam Mahdi ((عليه السلام).) ?

I am a Sunni Muslim and a member of a Sufi tariqah but have recently been reading about Shi'ism as well and this question came to me.

The Ismaili have tried this. But their present Imam, their 49th, has no progeny despite many efforts and all and therefore the Ismaili customized system of imamate is about to collapse for them.

In the Qur'an, the word "Imam" is mentioned exactly 12 times.

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17 hours ago, Darth Vader said:

The Ismaili have tried this. But their present Imam, their 49th, has no progeny despite many efforts and all and therefore the Ismaili customized system of imamate is about to collapse for them.

In the Qur'an, the word "Imam" is mentioned exactly 12 times.

1- Sorry?? The Aga Khan doesnt have no progeny?? he has 3 sons :)

2- Furthermore, Ismaili Imams also claimed that their Imamat will continue till Qayamat, & Imams will always be "Hazir Imams" not "Gayab Imams" , , and that can also be taken as a litmus case to prove / disprove Ismaili Imamat

3- Not only Ismailis have customized their faith, if that was the case, I believe then All Muslims would have no difference at all , is that so??

4- Ismaili Imamat is about to collapse?? how come??

5- Word Imam does mentioned in Qur'an 12 times, it is also mentioned Imams singular as well as plural , so what does it provide? .. I kindly read my above mentioned 3 questions and if possible try to reply them logically,, I'll be thankful.

 

On 6/14/2019 at 8:02 PM, skaswani said:

Seems good point, but here is my three relevant questions,

1-Jesus 12 disciples also include Juda?? the one who ditched him?? or let me know if I am wrong?

2- Other/Above mentioned Prophet even had 12 disciples or Imams (with or after them) but I believe Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was very different in position & nature, by nature he was the last Nabi and after him no Prophet will come, so question is how is it possible that Imamat limit/ended on just 12 Imams

3- Imams basic function is to give Hadayat & be the proof of Allah (his Hujjat) & His Authority on Earth , Unity of Command, etc

         If Imams are Hadaya, then how can we be left on Ulimas and Ayatullahs for Hadayat

         If Imams are Proof of Allah (Hujjat) then why we can't see them and see the Proof of Allah

         If Imams are Authority, then how come we can accept authority of any Ulima / Ayatullahs

         If Imams are Unity of Command, then how come we can look upon others for this function.

 

Hope I may get logical replies on the above mentioned questions.
 

 

 

 

my some logical questions if u can reply logically

 

thanks

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On 6/19/2019 at 9:50 PM, skaswani said:

1- Sorry?? The Aga Khan doesnt have no progeny?? he has 3 sons :)

2- Furthermore, Ismaili Imams also claimed that their Imamat will continue till Qayamat, & Imams will always be "Hazir Imams" not "Gayab Imams" , , and that can also be taken as a litmus case to prove / disprove Ismaili Imamat

3- Not only Ismailis have customized their faith, if that was the case, I believe then All Muslims would have no difference at all , is that so??

4- Ismaili Imamat is about to collapse?? how come??

5- Word Imam does mentioned in Qur'an 12 times, it is also mentioned Imams singular as well as plural , so what does it provide? .. I kindly read my above mentioned 3 questions and if possible try to reply them logically,, I'll be thankful.

 

my some logical questions if u can reply logically

 

thanks

It seems I was misinformed about his children. Thank you for correcting me. He does indeed have children from his English and German model wives, giving the Ismailis atleast three candidates for their next Imam. Good luck guys.

I think it is incomparably better to stick to the immaculate 12 Imams who can be guides and role models in every aspect of life and not just temporal wealth and fairness of complexion. Having flawless, divinely appointed role models with the ultimate and best of all characteristics possible is imperative for laying the foundations of each new generation. I have been writing this since the early days on ShiaChat, citing the many flaws in the Sunni role models (their aslaaf) which has made those flaws seem trivial to their followers despite being among the worst flaws in a person and grave sins. Take lying and usurpation of others' rights as an instance and see for yourself how this quality has become rampant in them. We aspire to become who we follow and listen to. Same as a child will follow their parents and will not exceed their ability in general. I have also asked for a shred of evidence that makes a single one of my 12 Imams anything less than immaculate and never found it even from the biggest of opponents. So I ask myself, is it possible for even Ismail himself to be like them and pass through the eye of the needle? Even this answer is in history. Let alone the later where it becomes black and white in support of my statements. Its just a monarchy with agnatic succession system and token religious symbolism which is hollow in essence with no traces of divine appointment left now. Therefore it has been a failed experiment nevertheless.

Edited by Darth Vader

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