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warisshah2012

Why Stop At Only 12 Imams? An Intellectual Query

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On 6/11/2019 at 4:07 PM, IbnSina said:

Genesis (17-18:20) 

"And as for Isma'il, I have blessed him, and I have made him fruitful. And I have truly multiplied him, he will beget twelve leaders and I will provide for him a large nation." 

Please forgive this question, but I want to make sure I understand this right,

 

The reason there are 12 Imans is because of the use of 12 historically in our faith, like in the examples given in the past few comments?

Also are the Hadiths that,

@Ethics

Quoted the main Hadiths used for this or is there more?

Please know that I am in no way trying to be a smart mouth or fool. Just trying to find all the puzzle pieces.

Edited by funklebits
I'm on mobile and it posted before I could finish my comment about another users post. I pray for the day a mobile app is made for this amazing site.

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On 12/19/2012 at 8:18 PM, JawzofDETH said:

Simple. Moses had 12, Jesus had 12. Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) didn't have 13 or more.

Seems good point, but here is my two relevant questions,

1-Jesus 12 disciples also include Juda?? the one who ditched him?? or let me know if I am wrong?

2- Other/Above mentioned Prophet even had 12 disciples or Imams (with or after them) but I believe Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was very different in position & nature, by nature he was the last Nabi and after him no Prophet will come, so question is how is it possible that Imamat limit/ended on just 12 Imams

3- Imams basic function is to give Hadayat & be the proof of Allah (his Hujjat) & His Authority on Earth , Unity of Command, etc

         If Imams are Hadaya, then how can we be left on Ulimas and Ayatullahs for Hadayat

         If Imams are Proof of Allah (Hujjat) then why we can't see them and see the Proof of Allah

         If Imams are Authority, then how come we can accept authority of any Ulima / Ayatullahs

         If Imams are Unity of Command, then how come we can look upon others for this function.

Hope I may get logical replies on the above mentioned questions.

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57 minutes ago, skaswani said:

but here is my two relevant questions,

How many questions?

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On 12/9/2012 at 2:48 AM, warisshah2012 said:

Salam

I am reading about Imamate and it is very interesting intellectually but here are some questions I have:

If we have a divinely appointed Imam to guide us on the way of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).) why only stop after 12? Why not continue with one Imam after another till Imam Mahdi?

I would like you to answer this without referring to the Sunni hadith books about the hadith of 12 caliphs or similar narrations in your own books but only using intellect and logic. See, I am almost convinced that the idea of a divinely appointed ruler for the Muslim Ummah, who is protected from sin is a good one and it makes sense to my intellect but since we do not know when the Day of Judgement will be and when the world will end, shouldn't there be a continuous line of Imams, one after the other, until the last one (whom we can call Imam Mahdi ((عليه السلام).) ?

I am a Sunni Muslim and a member of a Sufi tariqah but have recently been reading about Shi'ism as well and this question came to me.

Salamun alaikum,

Even intellect has a limit because sometimes we cannot rationalise the reasons for understanding. For every reason FOR having 12 Imams you could think of every reason AGAINST having 12 Imams. For example, the early Shia scholars like Shaykh Tusi in his book al Ghaybah tried to rationalise it by saying Allah is testing the believers to see how they would hold on to the knowledge revealed on the Prophet and taught by the Imams. However, you find people today against the idea of an Imam on occultation will say it is irrational having an Imam which we cannot see "guide" us through this period. Most rationally minded people would say what use is a hidden Imam who cannot give guidance?

Do you see how even logic can be subjective in these matters?

The number of 12 was ultimately decided from the hadiths and when Imam al-Askari's son had gone into hiding. He did not explicitly appoint the next Imam and instead appointed a trusted chief amongst the Shiah who was usually responsible for managing financial affairs. This created confusion amongst some of the Shiah which led scholars to compile books proving the 12 Imams and occultation from hadith that had been in circulation before the occultation.

This is also evidenced by other groups (like the Waqifites [those who stop]) who made similar occultation claims upon the passing on the 6th or 7th Imam for example. In the eyes of the Shiah scholars this was further proof of the occultation theory existing pre-twelth-Imam.

For logic and intellect it would have to be a test from Allah to see how good we are at being faithful to the truth. Some Shiah scholars say the period of occultation is the period of ijtihad (unlike some Sunnis who say the doors to itjihad had closed). Ultimately the number 12 has to come from hadith which is the second source of law in Islam for Sunni and Shiah.

It was narrated that Sa'eed bin Musayyab said:
"We were with Umm Salamah and we were discussing Mahdi. She said: 'I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: "Mahdi will be one of the descendents of Fatimah."
 
Grade Hasan (Darussalam)  
 

 : Sunan Ibn Majah 4086

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) observed:

What will be your state when the son of Mary descends amongst you and there will be an Imam amongst you?
Reference

 : Sahih Muslim 155 d

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by ali47

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On 12/9/2012 at 3:48 AM, warisshah2012 said:

Salam

I am reading about Imamate and it is very interesting intellectually but here are some questions I have:

If we have a divinely appointed Imam to guide us on the way of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).) why only stop after 12? Why not continue with one Imam after another till Imam Mahdi?

I would like you to answer this without referring to the Sunni hadith books about the hadith of 12 caliphs or similar narrations in your own books but only using intellect and logic. See, I am almost convinced that the idea of a divinely appointed ruler for the Muslim Ummah, who is protected from sin is a good one and it makes sense to my intellect but since we do not know when the Day of Judgement will be and when the world will end, shouldn't there be a continuous line of Imams, one after the other, until the last one (whom we can call Imam Mahdi ((عليه السلام).) ?

I am a Sunni Muslim and a member of a Sufi tariqah but have recently been reading about Shi'ism as well and this question came to me.

Salam,

 

According to Zaydi Shia's there is only one Mahdi who will be born before the End of Times.

'Till his birth every descendant of Imam Hassan or Hussain who meets the qualification of Imam can become one.

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On 12/9/2012 at 7:48 AM, warisshah2012 said:

Salam

I am reading about Imamate and it is very interesting intellectually but here are some questions I have:

If we have a divinely appointed Imam to guide us on the way of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).) why only stop after 12? Why not continue with one Imam after another till Imam Mahdi?

I would like you to answer this without referring to the Sunni hadith books about the hadith of 12 caliphs or similar narrations in your own books but only using intellect and logic. See, I am almost convinced that the idea of a divinely appointed ruler for the Muslim Ummah, who is protected from sin is a good one and it makes sense to my intellect but since we do not know when the Day of Judgement will be and when the world will end, shouldn't there be a continuous line of Imams, one after the other, until the last one (whom we can call Imam Mahdi ((عليه السلام).) ?

I am a Sunni Muslim and a member of a Sufi tariqah but have recently been reading about Shi'ism as well and this question came to me.

The Ismaili have tried this. But their present Imam, their 49th, has no progeny despite many efforts and all and therefore the Ismaili customized system of imamate is about to collapse for them.

In the Qur'an, the word "Imam" is mentioned exactly 12 times.

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17 hours ago, Darth Vader said:

The Ismaili have tried this. But their present Imam, their 49th, has no progeny despite many efforts and all and therefore the Ismaili customized system of imamate is about to collapse for them.

In the Qur'an, the word "Imam" is mentioned exactly 12 times.

1- Sorry?? The Aga Khan doesnt have no progeny?? he has 3 sons :)

2- Furthermore, Ismaili Imams also claimed that their Imamat will continue till Qayamat, & Imams will always be "Hazir Imams" not "Gayab Imams" , , and that can also be taken as a litmus case to prove / disprove Ismaili Imamat

3- Not only Ismailis have customized their faith, if that was the case, I believe then All Muslims would have no difference at all , is that so??

4- Ismaili Imamat is about to collapse?? how come??

5- Word Imam does mentioned in Qur'an 12 times, it is also mentioned Imams singular as well as plural , so what does it provide? .. I kindly read my above mentioned 3 questions and if possible try to reply them logically,, I'll be thankful.

 

On 6/14/2019 at 8:02 PM, skaswani said:

Seems good point, but here is my three relevant questions,

1-Jesus 12 disciples also include Juda?? the one who ditched him?? or let me know if I am wrong?

2- Other/Above mentioned Prophet even had 12 disciples or Imams (with or after them) but I believe Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was very different in position & nature, by nature he was the last Nabi and after him no Prophet will come, so question is how is it possible that Imamat limit/ended on just 12 Imams

3- Imams basic function is to give Hadayat & be the proof of Allah (his Hujjat) & His Authority on Earth , Unity of Command, etc

         If Imams are Hadaya, then how can we be left on Ulimas and Ayatullahs for Hadayat

         If Imams are Proof of Allah (Hujjat) then why we can't see them and see the Proof of Allah

         If Imams are Authority, then how come we can accept authority of any Ulima / Ayatullahs

         If Imams are Unity of Command, then how come we can look upon others for this function.

 

Hope I may get logical replies on the above mentioned questions.
 

 

 

 

my some logical questions if u can reply logically

 

thanks

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On 6/19/2019 at 9:50 PM, skaswani said:

1- Sorry?? The Aga Khan doesnt have no progeny?? he has 3 sons :)

2- Furthermore, Ismaili Imams also claimed that their Imamat will continue till Qayamat, & Imams will always be "Hazir Imams" not "Gayab Imams" , , and that can also be taken as a litmus case to prove / disprove Ismaili Imamat

3- Not only Ismailis have customized their faith, if that was the case, I believe then All Muslims would have no difference at all , is that so??

4- Ismaili Imamat is about to collapse?? how come??

5- Word Imam does mentioned in Qur'an 12 times, it is also mentioned Imams singular as well as plural , so what does it provide? .. I kindly read my above mentioned 3 questions and if possible try to reply them logically,, I'll be thankful.

 

my some logical questions if u can reply logically

 

thanks

It seems I was misinformed about his children. Thank you for correcting me. He does indeed have children from his English and German model wives, giving the Ismailis atleast three candidates for their next Imam. Good luck guys.

I think it is incomparably better to stick to the immaculate 12 Imams who can be guides and role models in every aspect of life and not just temporal wealth and fairness of complexion. Having flawless, divinely appointed role models with the ultimate and best of all characteristics possible is imperative for laying the foundations of each new generation. I have been writing this since the early days on ShiaChat, citing the many flaws in the Sunni role models (their aslaaf) which has made those flaws seem trivial to their followers despite being among the worst flaws in a person and grave sins. Take lying and usurpation of others' rights as an instance and see for yourself how this quality has become rampant in them. We aspire to become who we follow and listen to. Same as a child will follow their parents and will not exceed their ability in general. I have also asked for a shred of evidence that makes a single one of my 12 Imams anything less than immaculate and never found it even from the biggest of opponents. So I ask myself, is it possible for even Ismail himself to be like them and pass through the eye of the needle? Even this answer is in history. Let alone the later where it becomes black and white in support of my statements. Its just a monarchy with agnatic succession system and token religious symbolism which is hollow in essence with no traces of divine appointment left now. Therefore it has been a failed experiment nevertheless.

Edited by Darth Vader

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44 minutes ago, Darth Vader said:

It seems I was misinformed about his children. Thank you for correcting me. He does indeed have children from his English and German model wives, giving the Ismailis atleast three candidates for their next Imam. Good luck guys.

Thanks for updating your self, however so far non has really replied my logical questions.

 

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People raising questions regarding Imamah and this definite 12 numbers of Imam (عليه السلام) should go through book Peshawar nights. It was discussion between Shia scholar Syed Mohammed Musavi and scholars of Sunni. He visited India and was persuaded for debate in Peshawar with fellow Sunni scholars on varied topics including Imamah and discussion continued for 10 nights where Syed Musavi replied the queries on different Ulema from other sects. I am attaching link of this book that is compilation of discussion between Syed and other scholars--

Kindly go through below link and you people may download to read it later on..One of the best book on varied topics of Shia Islam..

https://www.al-Islam.org/peshawar-nights-sultan-al-waadhim-Sayyid-Muhammad-al-musawi-ash-shirazi

Syed Musavi was only 30 years old during this debate and he had answered all the queries of scholars of different faiths..

Must Read Book

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1 hour ago, haidermpr said:

People raising questions regarding Imamah and this definite 12 numbers of Imam (عليه السلام) should go through book Peshawar nights. It was discussion between Shia scholar Syed Mohammed Musavi and scholars of Sunni. He visited India and was persuaded for debate in Peshawar with fellow Sunni scholars on varied topics including Imamah and discussion continued for 10 nights where Syed Musavi replied the queries on different Ulema from other sects. I am attaching link of this book that is compilation of discussion between Syed and other scholars--

Kindly go through below link and you people may download to read it later on..One of the best book on varied topics of Shia Islam..

https://www.al-Islam.org/peshawar-nights-sultan-al-waadhim-Sayyid-Muhammad-al-musawi-ash-shirazi

Syed Musavi was only 30 years old during this debate and he had answered all the queries of scholars of different faiths..

Must Read Book

we are here looking for logical responses not by hadiths.

 

If possible kindly share your logical responses 

 

Thanks 

 

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10 minutes ago, skaswani said:

we are here looking for logical responses not by hadiths.

 

If possible kindly share your logical responses 

Brother with all due respect,

I don't have logical answers to 12 numbers of Imam ordered by Prophet (saww) and hence can't answer that...

But it looks that you are too much in intellectual debates and believe that everything can be proved through logic/intellect/reasoning etc I have great doubt about such thinking...

Kindly prove me logically that there is Allah.. It is open challenge to everyone who think that he can prove Allah using his/her intellect..Intellect doesn't have answers of all the realities.

Kindly prove logic behind 124000 messengers/Prophets selected by Allah

Kindly provide logic for ending prophethood by Allah

Kindly provide logic for praying and its different actions

Will be waiting to get logical response from your side on above questions???????????????????????????????????????????????????????

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14 minutes ago, skaswani said:

we are here looking for logical responses not by hadiths.

Does your question demands the application of logic? 

Let me know why there were 124,000 Prophets? Please do not take the help of Qur'an or Hadith, I would like to have your logical response. 

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5 hours ago, haidermpr said:

Brother with all due respect,

I don't have logical answers to 12 numbers of Imam ordered by Prophet (saww) and hence can't answer that...

But it looks that you are too much in intellectual debates and believe that everything can be proved through logic/intellect/reasoning etc I have great doubt about such thinking...

Kindly prove me logically that there is Allah.. It is open challenge to everyone who think that he can prove Allah using his/her intellect..Intellect doesn't have answers of all the realities.

Kindly prove logic behind 124000 messengers/Prophets selected by Allah

Kindly provide logic for ending prophethood by Allah

Kindly provide logic for praying and its different actions

Will be waiting to get logical response from your side on above questions???????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Salam,

Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason. (Qur'an al-Anfal 8:22)

I think its my right as well as duty to ask question and seek the answers with logic, isnt it?

 

My Logical question is, If the most Important function of Imam is "to Guide as he is called her Hadi" then how much possible that 1400 years people were blessed that they could meet/see/ask their concerns/get Prophet & Imams glimpse and we are not!

 

How much effective it is to seek Hadayat from a hidden Imam where we are not in contact and we cannot ask any question but have to refer our questions to Ayatullahs/Maraja/Mufti/Alims and how much we can assure that the ruling given by those learnt persons is equivalent to the Prophets & Imams & its from the infallible hadayat

 

How much effective is it that new problems on which the  Ayatullahs/Maraja/Mufti/Alims does Ijtihad and ensure that there will be Zero error and the Ijtihad would be as good as that we have seek the guidance from the Prophet or Imams.

 

Hope considering the above mention Aayat, now my questions can be entertained with logical answers :)

Jazak Allah

 

 

 

 

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On 6/14/2019 at 3:02 PM, skaswani said:

2- Other/Above mentioned Prophet even had 12 disciples or Imams (with or after them) but I believe Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was very different in position & nature, by nature he was the last Nabi and after him no Prophet will come, so question is how is it possible that Imamat limit/ended on just 12 Imams

I have tried  to verify the hadith (of 12 Imams for the Ahl albayt as of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).) by the verses of Qur'an and their analysis. The links are given below:

wasalam

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On 6/14/2019 at 3:02 PM, skaswani said:

3- Imams basic function is to give Hadayat & be the proof of Allah (his Hujjat) & His Authority on Earth , Unity of Command, etc

         If Imams are Hadaya, then how can we be left on Ulimas and Ayatullahs for Hadayat

         If Imams are Proof of Allah (Hujjat) then why we can't see them and see the Proof of Allah

         If Imams are Authority, then how come we can accept authority of any Ulima / Ayatullahs

         If Imams are Unity of Command, then how come we can look upon others for this function.

Hope I may get logical replies on the above mentioned questions.

The principle of ghaybah of 12 Imam is best explained by the following video of Molana Nasir Hussain in Urdu:

The other detail about the hadayah function of Imam is explained by the following links:

https://therealmahdi.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/benefit-from-an-occult-Imam/

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010

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13 hours ago, skaswani said:

Salam,

Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason. (Qur'an al-Anfal 8:22)

I think its my right as well as duty to ask question and seek the answers with logic, isnt it?

With the quote of very verse, kindly provide me logical answer to above raised questions by me.....

Imamah is not first thing in Deen instead it is Oneness of Allah and his presence when there was nothing..
So kindly provide logical answer for his presence?????

Then Allah sent Prophet/messengers to propagate Deen.. why he stopped at 124000? what is logical answer to that???

There was time difference between different Prophet/messengers, why Allah didn't send messengers continuously.. There are communities and nations where may be 1 or 2 messengers came throughout history of their origin.. why is it so???? Can you provide me answer who were messengers in America/India etc..and these nations are not new...they were inhabited by sons of Adam (عليه السلام)..

These important things come before the Imamah and hence all logical people should answer to these 2 valid questions without reference to Qur'an and hadiths..

Thanks

I am also expecting logical answer from you brother 

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Brother, we have provided our logical answers based on verses of Qur'an hadith and their analysis regarding the Immamah  to complete our reponse in above last three posts.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010

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On 7/4/2019 at 8:33 PM, skaswani said:

Salam,

Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason. (Qur'an al-Anfal 8:22)

I think its my right as well as duty to ask question and seek the answers with logic, isnt it?

 

My Logical question is, If the most Important function of Imam is "to Guide as he is called her Hadi" then how much possible that 1400 years people were blessed that they could meet/see/ask their concerns/get Prophet & Imams glimpse and we are not!

 

How much effective it is to seek Hadayat from a hidden Imam where we are not in contact and we cannot ask any question but have to refer our questions to Ayatullahs/Maraja/Mufti/Alims and how much we can assure that the ruling given by those learnt persons is equivalent to the Prophets & Imams & its from the infallible hadayat

 

How much effective is it that new problems on which the  Ayatullahs/Maraja/Mufti/Alims does Ijtihad and ensure that there will be Zero error and the Ijtihad would be as good as that we have seek the guidance from the Prophet or Imams.

 

Hope considering the above mention Aayat, now my questions can be entertained with logical answers :)

Jazak Allah

 

 

 

 

wasalam.

Some so called logical questions asked by the kafirs regarding the messenger and Qur'an.

And those who have no knowledge say: "Why does Allah not speak to us or there come to us a sign?" Thus spoke those before them like their words. Their hearts resemble each other. We have shown clearly the signs to a people who are certain. 2:118

 And they say, "Why was there not sent down to him an angel?" But if We had sent down an angel, the matter would have been decided; then they would not be reprieved. 6:8

And they say, "Why has a sign not been sent down to him from his Lord?" Say, "Indeed, Allah is Able to send down a sign, but most of them do not know." 6:37

And they say, "What is this messenger that eats food and walks in the markets? Why was there not sent down to him an angel so he would be with him a warner? 25:7

And they said, "Why was this Qur'an not sent down upon a great man from [one of] the two cities?" 43:31

Then why have there not been placed upon him bracelets of gold or come with him the angels in conjunction?" 43:53

Then, it may be that you will give up part of what is revealed to you and your breast will become straitened by it because they say: "Why has there not been sent down to him a treasure or come with him an angel?" But you are only a warner. And Allah is Disposer of all things. 11:12

Imamat is from Allah. Messenger of Allah(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) informed about 12 Imams after him.

He cannot be questioned for what He does, but they will be questioned. 21:23

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Thanks for all the replies. Personally I respect and revere greatly all the Imams of Ahlul Bayt (including ones like Imam Zayd not accepted by the Ithna Asharis) but I have to say purely on logic the position of both the Zaydis and the Ismailis makes more sense (doesn't mean it is true though!) to me. The idea of a present (hazir) Imam, visible to all and sundry, makes more sense than an Imam who is hidden and not accessible. Anyway thanks for all the replies.

 

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If the Imam has to be hidden then we already have the Prophet of Islam who is alive in his grave in the Barzakh and present with us always so what need then for the 12th Imam to go into occultation?  On the other hand, only the very pious can see the Messenger spiritually or in a dream so the idea of one of his descendants being an infallible visible (hazir) guide makes more sense. Sadly the AK is far from infallible so we're back to square one!

 

 

Edited by warisshah2012

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On 12/8/2012 at 9:48 PM, warisshah2012 said:

Salam

I am reading about Imamate and it is very interesting intellectually but here are some questions I have:

If we have a divinely appointed Imam to guide us on the way of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).) why only stop after 12? Why not continue with one Imam after another till Imam Mahdi?

I would like you to answer this without referring to the Sunni hadith books about the hadith of 12 caliphs or similar narrations in your own books but only using intellect and logic. See, I am almost convinced that the idea of a divinely appointed ruler for the Muslim Ummah, who is protected from sin is a good one and it makes sense to my intellect but since we do not know when the Day of Judgement will be and when the world will end, shouldn't there be a continuous line of Imams, one after the other, until the last one (whom we can call Imam Mahdi ((عليه السلام).) ?

I am a Sunni Muslim and a member of a Sufi tariqah but have recently been reading about Shi'ism as well and this question came to me.

copy and pasted.  :)
 

12Cosmic Dozens and
The Cosmological Circle


"The universe is simple if you use imagination.
Its pattern is the number Twelve which structures all Creation.
You need not study physics or be versed in numerology
To draw from Threes and Fours the duodecimal cosmology."

--"Twelve Fold Universe" by John Michell

To live in accord with the perceived cosmic order, countless societies mirrored upon Earth the patterns they saw in the sky and in mathematics, particularly around the wondrous properties of the number twelve. Twelve is the traditional "framework number" embracing and interrelating the numbers below and beyond it. From time immemorial the archetypal "twelve-around-one" pattern of the zodiac was mirrored in twelve-tribe societies, the mythologies of twelve heroic ordeals, twelve spiritual disciples, and the designs of monuments, temples and cultures mediating between Heaven and Earth, from Stonehenge to the U.S. Government. There are many worldwide traditions of the Duodecimal (twelvefold) Cosmology.

The "Cosmological Circle" refers to an ancient geometric diagram which appears throughout the world underlying the designs of temples, kivas, churches, mandalas and other expressions of sacred arts, crafts and architecture. Its secret is that it makes visible the harmony of all the numbers 1 through 12 and so represents a harmonious sacred microcosm. The Cosmological Circle's "squared-circle" design insures that such temples are properly oriented to the solstices and equinoxes, and symbolizes that the site occurs at the meeting of Heaven and Earth.

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Logically speaking I can find no answer. And finding authentic hadith set by Sunni standards regardless of collection their isn't much evidence literally. Also from my research the existence of the 12th Imam is not proven by *12er standards.

My theory the widely known hadith of 12 was used by certain political groups. When a 12 Imam could not be found, the story of a hidden Imam was created. 

*Although I'm still confused about the exact standards for authentication. ( Any help would be appreciated)

Edited by Warilla

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17 hours ago, warisshah2012 said:

Thanks for all the replies. Personally I respect and revere greatly all the Imams of Ahlul Bayt (including ones like Imam Zayd not accepted by the Ithna Asharis) but I have to say purely on logic the position of both the Zaydis and the Ismailis makes more sense (doesn't mean it is true though!) to me. The idea of a present (hazir) Imam, visible to all and sundry, makes more sense than an Imam who is hidden and not accessible. Anyway thanks for all the replies.

 

Salam source  idea of continuous present Imam is a pure ithna Ashari idea but it needs infability of Imam but Zaydis & Ismailis are neglecting this precondition but they also agree that  their Imams must be from descendants of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) that zaydis have more near viewpoint to  ithna Ashari but ismailis are very far from us because Aghakhanis accepted reincarnation idea about Imam also in all Shia narration it said from time of Prophet Muhammad (pbu) said that many people specially Muslims will deny existence of Imam Mahdi (aj) that it highlited from time of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) because of that Muslims specially Shia Muslims that belive to hidden 12th Imam that they won't deny it have reward of 313 fighters of badr that fought beside Prophet Muhammad (pbu) because at battle of badr number of real believers were few in number but they were pure in belief against a vast army of unbelievers.

17 hours ago, warisshah2012 said:

If the Imam has to be hidden then we already have the Prophet of Islam who is alive in his grave in the Barzakh and present with us always so what need then for the 12th Imam to go into occultation?  On the other hand, only the very pious can see the Messenger spiritually or in a dream so the idea of one of his descendants being an infallible visible (hazir) guide makes more sense. Sadly the AK is far from infallible so we're back to square one!

 

 

there is narrations about "Raj'a" which says that even Prophet Muhammad (pbu) will back to behead the Shaitan (la) but it mixes with Imam Mahdi (aj) because these narration are using title of Mahdi that is using both for Imam Mahdi (aj) &Prophet Muhammad (pbu) because all of their descriptions & attributes are same as each other in these Hadiths.

 

27 minutes ago, Warilla said:

Logically speaking I can find no answer. And finding authentic hadith set by Sunni standards regardless of collection their isn't much evidence literally. Also from my research the existence of the 12th Imam is not proven. 

My theory the widely known hadith of 12 was used by certain political groups. When a 12 Imam could not be found, the story of a hidden Imam was created. 

 

see above^ 

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