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igotquestions

Researching About Shia Islam

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I would doubt the authenticity of such a hadith considering even with my limited knowledge of Rijal I know Shia scholars trust the following companions: Miqdad, Ammar ibn Yassir, Bilal al-Habishi, Ali ibn Abu Talib (we consider him the successor of The Prophet, but he's still a companion), Abu Dharr, Salman al-Farsi, Ibn Abbas, Jabir ibn Abdullah, etc.

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Okay, thank you brother, I will take a look and have a deeper analysis with what you posted.

Another question. I know Shia Muslims don't view the first 3 Caliphs (r.a.) in high regards. But I saw a hadith relating to companions apostatizing except 3. Can anyone touch upon this hadith if it is authentic or not? And how do Shia Muslims agree that the first 3 Caliphs died as Muslims?

They also claim everyone left the religion of Islam except three after the death of Hussain (ra).

Edited by Abul Hussain Hassani

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Provide proof

جعفر بن الحسين، عن ابن الوليد، عن الصفار، عن محمد بن عيسى، عن يونس، عن جميل، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: ارتد الناس بعد الحسين عليه السلام إلا ثلاثة: أبو خالد الكابلي، يحيى بن ام الطويل، وجبير بن مطعم

It has been narrated from Jafar Sadiq that all the people apostated after the death of Hussain except three, Abu Khalid al Kabli, Yahya bin Umm-ut-taweel and Jubair bin Mutim.

Bihar al Anwar, Vol. 46, p. 144

Edited by Abul Hussain Hassani

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جعفر بن الحسين، عن ابن الوليد، عن الصفار، عن محمد بن عيسى، عن يونس، عن جميل، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: ارتد الناس بعد الحسين عليه السلام إلا ثلاثة: أبو خالد الكابلي، يحيى بن ام الطويل، وجبير بن مطعم

It has been narrated from Jafar Sadiq that all the people apostated after the death of Hussain except three, Abu Khalid al Kabli, Yahya bin Umm-ut-taweel and Jubair bin Mutim.

Bihar al Anwar, Vol. 46, p. 144

And the grading of hadith?

Just because there is a hadith in Bihar al Anwar it doesn't mean that we believe in it

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جعفر بن الحسين، عن ابن الوليد، عن الصفار، عن محمد بن عيسى، عن يونس، عن جميل، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: ارتد الناس بعد الحسين عليه السلام إلا ثلاثة: أبو خالد الكابلي، يحيى بن ام الطويل، وجبير بن مطعم

It has been narrated from Jafar Sadiq that all the people apostated after the death of Hussain except three, Abu Khalid al Kabli, Yahya bin Umm-ut-taweel and Jubair bin Mutim.

Bihar al Anwar, Vol. 46, p. 144

Brother, perhaps you did not see I've already provided far more than three names of companions that are trusted by Shia School of Thought scholars. Please go back a few posts. A hadith is not sufficient considering there is far more proof for the authenticity of men like Ibn Abbas, Jabir ibn Abdullah, Abu Dharr, Ammar ibn Yassir, Bilal al-Habishi, should I keep going?

Salam

Edited by Ratohnhaketon

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And I'm still waiting for clear evidence of Imamate from the Quran.

Brother please watch these lectures on youtube

hassnain rajabali-Did the prophet appoint Imam Ali as successor

Ammar nakshawani-welayat of Imam Ali,

and you will love the lectures by this scholar: they are a masterpiece

khalil jaffer-veils of heedlessness and many other lectures by him

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جعفر بن الحسين، عن ابن الوليد، عن الصفار، عن محمد بن عيسى، عن يونس، عن جميل، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: ارتد الناس بعد الحسين عليه السلام إلا ثلاثة: أبو خالد الكابلي، يحيى بن ام الطويل، وجبير بن مطعم

It has been narrated from Jafar Sadiq that all the people apostated after the death of Hussain except three, Abu Khalid al Kabli, Yahya bin Umm-ut-taweel and Jubair bin Mutim.

Bihar al Anwar, Vol. 46, p. 144

Is that hadith authentic?

Brother please watch these lectures on youtube

hassnain rajabali-Did the prophet appoint Imam Ali as successor

Ammar nakshawani-welayat of Imam Ali,

and you will love the lectures by this scholar: they are a masterpiece

khalil jaffer-veils of heedlessness and many other lectures by him

Thank you brother, I will check out these videos InshAllah

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أَخْبَرَنَا مَحْمُودُ بْنُ غَيْلاَنَ، قَالَ أَخْبَرَنَا وَكِيعٌ، وَوَهْبُ بْنُ جَرِيرٍ، وَأَبُو دَاوُدَ عَنْ شُعْبَةَ، عَنِ الْمُغِيرَةِ بْنِ النُّعْمَانِ، عَنْ سَعِيدِ بْنِ جُبَيْرٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ، قَالَ قَامَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم بِالْمَوْعِظَةِ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّكُمْ مَحْشُورُونَ إِلَى اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ عُرَاةً ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو دَاوُدَ ‏"‏ حُفَاةً غُرْلاً ‏"‏ ‏.‏ وَقَالَ وَكِيعٌ وَوَهْبٌ ‏"‏ عُرَاةً غُرْلاً ‏{‏ كَمَا بَدَأْنَا أَوَّلَ خَلْقٍ نُعِيدُهُ ‏}‏ قَالَ أَوَّلُ مَنْ يُكْسَى يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ إِبْرَاهِيمُ عَلَيْهِ السَّلاَمُ وَإِنَّهُ سَيُؤْتَى ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو دَاوُدَ ‏"‏ يُجَاءُ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ وَقَالَ وَهْبٌ وَوَكِيعٌ ‏"‏ سَيُؤْتَى بِرِجَالٍ مِنْ أُمَّتِي فَيُؤْخَذُ بِهِمْ ذَاتَ الشِّمَالِ فَأَقُولُ رَبِّ أَصْحَابِي ‏.‏ فَيُقَالُ إِنَّكَ لاَ تَدْرِي مَا أَحْدَثُوا بَعْدَكَ فَأَقُولُ كَمَا قَالَ الْعَبْدُ الصَّالِحُ ‏{‏ وَكُنْتُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا مَا دُمْتُ فِيهِمْ فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي ‏}‏ إِلَى قَوْلِهِ ‏{‏ وَإِنْ تَغْفِرْ لَهُمْ ‏}‏ الآيَةَ فَيُقَالُ إِنَّ هَؤُلاَءِ لَمْ يَزَالُوا مُدْبِرِينَ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو دَاوُدَ ‏"‏ مُرْتَدِّينَ عَلَى أَعْقَابِهِمْ مُنْذُ فَارَقْتَهُمْ

It was narrated that Ibn 'Abbas said:

"The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) stood up to give an admonition and he said: 'O people, you will be gathered to Allah naked."' (One of the narrators) Abu Dawud said: "Barefoot and uncircumcised." (The narrators) Waki' and Wahb said: "Naked and uncircumcised: As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it.'' The first one to be clothed on the Day of Resurrection will be Ibrahim, peace be upon him. Then some men from among my Ummah will be brought and will be taken toward the left.[1] I will say: 'O Lord, my companions.' It will be said: 'You do not know what they innovated after you were gone.' And I shall say what the righteous slave said: 'And I was witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them; and You are a Witness to all things. If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily, You, only You, are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.' And it will be said: 'These people kept turning away since you left them."'

Comments:

''To the left'' means they will be driven toward Hell. The denizens of Hell have been called the As'habush Shimal: the people of the left.

Footnote:

_______________

[1] Meaning, toward Hell.

______________________

Sunni - Salafi References:

Source: Sunan an Nasa'i by Imam Nasa'i, Volume 3, page 153-154, Hadith Number # 2089

Grading: ( Sahih )

Grading of Imam Albani: ( Sahih )

Scan

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أَخْبَرَنَا مَحْمُودُ بْنُ غَيْلاَنَ، قَالَ أَخْبَرَنَا وَكِيعٌ، وَوَهْبُ بْنُ جَرِيرٍ، وَأَبُو دَاوُدَ عَنْ شُعْبَةَ، عَنِ الْمُغِيرَةِ بْنِ النُّعْمَانِ، عَنْ سَعِيدِ بْنِ جُبَيْرٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ، قَالَ قَامَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم بِالْمَوْعِظَةِ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّكُمْ مَحْشُورُونَ إِلَى اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ عُرَاةً ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو دَاوُدَ ‏"‏ حُفَاةً غُرْلاً ‏"‏ ‏.‏ وَقَالَ وَكِيعٌ وَوَهْبٌ ‏"‏ عُرَاةً غُرْلاً ‏{‏ كَمَا بَدَأْنَا أَوَّلَ خَلْقٍ نُعِيدُهُ ‏}‏ قَالَ أَوَّلُ مَنْ يُكْسَى يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ إِبْرَاهِيمُ عَلَيْهِ السَّلاَمُ وَإِنَّهُ سَيُؤْتَى ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو دَاوُدَ ‏"‏ يُجَاءُ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ وَقَالَ وَهْبٌ وَوَكِيعٌ ‏"‏ سَيُؤْتَى بِرِجَالٍ مِنْ أُمَّتِي فَيُؤْخَذُ بِهِمْ ذَاتَ الشِّمَالِ فَأَقُولُ رَبِّ أَصْحَابِي ‏.‏ فَيُقَالُ إِنَّكَ لاَ تَدْرِي مَا أَحْدَثُوا بَعْدَكَ فَأَقُولُ كَمَا قَالَ الْعَبْدُ الصَّالِحُ ‏{‏ وَكُنْتُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا مَا دُمْتُ فِيهِمْ فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي ‏}‏ إِلَى قَوْلِهِ ‏{‏ وَإِنْ تَغْفِرْ لَهُمْ ‏}‏ الآيَةَ فَيُقَالُ إِنَّ هَؤُلاَءِ لَمْ يَزَالُوا مُدْبِرِينَ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو دَاوُدَ ‏"‏ مُرْتَدِّينَ عَلَى أَعْقَابِهِمْ مُنْذُ فَارَقْتَهُمْ

It was narrated that Ibn 'Abbas said:

"The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) stood up to give an admonition and he said: 'O people, you will be gathered to Allah naked."' (One of the narrators) Abu Dawud said: "Barefoot and uncircumcised." (The narrators) Waki' and Wahb said: "Naked and uncircumcised: As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it.'' The first one to be clothed on the Day of Resurrection will be Ibrahim, peace be upon him. Then some men from among my Ummah will be brought and will be taken toward the left.[1] I will say: 'O Lord, my companions.' It will be said: 'You do not know what they innovated after you were gone.' And I shall say what the righteous slave said: 'And I was witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them; and You are a Witness to all things. If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily, You, only You, are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.' And it will be said: 'These people kept turning away since you left them."'

Comments:

''To the left'' means they will be driven toward Hell. The denizens of Hell have been called the As'habush Shimal: the people of the left.

Footnote:

_______________

[1] Meaning, toward Hell.

______________________

Sunni - Salafi References:

Source: Sunan an Nasa'i by Imam Nasa'i, Volume 3, page 153-154, Hadith Number # 2089

Grading: ( Sahih )

Grading of Imam Albani: ( Sahih )

Scan

And this is proof about the first 3 Caliphs (r.a.)?

Edited by igotquestions

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And this is proof about the first 3 Caliphs (r.a.)?

This proves just because your a sahaba doesnt mean your a good person and loved the person....nor does it mean you should be a caliph just because your a companion

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Is that hadith authentic?

Thank you brother, I will check out these videos InshAllah

Not to do a plug but you can also refer to my thread on succession (contemplating making a new one and more detailed on this issue about the same issue during the winter break):

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Not to do a plug but you can also refer to my thread on succession (contemplating making a new one and more detailed on this issue about the same issue during the winter break): http://www.shiachat....s/#entry2472868

Salam brother,

Are you involved in that Facebook group relating to Sunni and Shia dialogue? I think I saw you post there earlier today. I've been a avid fan of yours for the last few months with your detailed analysis of a lot of issues and was hoping you would soon post on here. Now I have one question that you may be able to answer: Did Imam Ali (a.s.) ever claim divine Imamate?

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Salam brother,

Are you involved in that Facebook group relating to Sunni and Shia dialogue? I think I saw you post there earlier today. I've been a avid fan of yours for the last few months with your detailed analysis of a lot of issues and was hoping you would soon post on here. Now I have one question that you may be able to answer: Did Imam Ali (a.s.) ever claim divine Imamate?

I just wanna say one thing.. logically whether he "claimed" divine imamate or not itsnt important, its that prophet which is Allah's representative chose him and I believe we have given plenty of proof from your own books and ours, its its up to you to believe the truth or not, wa salaam

by the way you will still get your answer but your just missing the whole point....

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Salam,

I don't think I'm missing the point at all. When the Prophet (pbuh) was revealed that he was the Messenger of God, he told people the true message. Now, if Imam Ali (a.s.) is the true divine successor, wouldn't it make sense that he would claim this as well so people would follow on the straight path?

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Salam,

I don't think I'm missing the point at all. When the Prophet (pbuh) was revealed that he was the Messenger of God, he told people the true message. Now, if Imam Ali (a.s.) is the true divine successor, wouldn't it make sense that he would claim this as well so people would follow on the straight path?

Your missing the whole point, even though the messenger of Allah said your my successor people dont follow him yet you think if Imam Ali said that, that would be justifiable? what logic.. People dont follow the true sunnah of the prophet besides all this proof, no one carries about their afterlife every one thinks its a joke or matter of proving someone right or wrong, ITS A MATTER OF THE TRUTH, DEENAL HAQ AL-ISLAM. In face my sunni friend today was talking about how all the sects are right and going to heaven...what nonsense is this? are we just like the Christians now believing there is no wrong just right...

Sermon 7/3 of Nahjul Balagha

Survey of the period after the demise of the Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF)

-------------------------------------------------------------------

[This is the famous sermon of Shiqshiqiyyah. It is so named because

while Imam Ali was delivering it an Iraqi got up and presented a

letter to him. He got busy in reading it. When he had finished the

letter Abdullah Ibn Abbas requested him to continue his sermon. The

Imam replied, " Ibn Abbas ! This speech of mine was extempore and was

being delivered at the impulse of that moment like the Shiqshiqiyyah

(the roar of a camel), it can't be continued." So far as the subject

is concerned the sermon is self-explanatory.]

Beware! By Allah the son of Abu Quhafah (Abu Bakr)(2) dressed himself with it (the caliphate) and he certainly knew that my position in relation to it was the same as the position of the axis in relation to the hand-mill. The flood water flows down from me and the bird cannot fly upto me. I put a curtain against the caliphate and kept myself detached from it.

Then I began to think whether I should assault or endure calmly the blinding darkness of tribulations wherein the grown up are made feeble and the young grow old and the true believer acts under strain till he meets Allah (on his death). I found that endurance thereon was wiser. So I adopted patience although there was [Edited Out]ing in the eye and suffocation (of mortification) in the throat. I watched the plundering of my inheritance till the first one went his way but handed over the Caliphate to Ibn al-Khattab after himself.

(Then he quoted al-A`sha's verse).

My days are now passed on the camel's back (in difficulty) while there were days (of ease) when I enjoyed the company of Jabir's brother Hayyan.(3)

It is strange that during his lifetime he wished to be released from the caliphate but he confirmed it for the other one after his death. No doubt these two shared its udders strictly among themselves. This one put the Caliphate in a tough enclosure where the utterance was haughty and the touch was rough. Mistakes were in plenty and so also the excuses therefore. One in contact with it was like the rider of an unruly camel. If he pulled up its rein the very nostril would be slit, but if he let it loose he would be thrown. Consequently, by Allah people got involved in recklessness, wickedness, unsteadiness and deviation.

Nevertheless, I remained patient despite length of period and stiffness of trial, till when he went his way (of death) he put the matter (of Caliphate) in a group(4) and regarded me to be one of them. But good Heavens! what had I to do with this "consultation"? Where was any doubt about me with regard to the first of them that I was now considered akin to these ones? But I remained low when they were low and flew high when they flew high. One of them turned against me because of his hatred and the other got inclined the other way due to his in-law relationship and this thing and that thing, till the third man of these people stood up with heaving breasts between his dung and fodder. With him his children of his grand-father, (Umayyah) also stood up swallowing up Allah's wealth(5) like a camel devouring the foliage of spring, till his rope broke down, his actions finished him and his gluttony brought him down prostrate.

At that moment, nothing took me by surprise, but the crowd of people rushing to me. It advanced towards me from every side like the mane of the hyena so much so that Hasan and Husayn were getting crushed and both the ends of my shoulder garment were torn. They collected around me like the herd of sheep and goats. When I took up the reins of government one party broke away and another turned disobedient while the rest began acting wrongfully as if they had not heard the word of Allah saying:

That abode in the hereafter, We assign it for those who intend not to exult themselves in the earth, nor (to make) mischief (therein); and the end is (best) for the pious ones. (Qur'an, 28:83)

Yes, by Allah, they had heard it and understood it but the world appeared glittering in their eyes and its embellishments seduced them. Behold, by Him who split the grain (to grow) and created living beings, if people had not come to me and supporters had not exhausted the argument and if there had been no pledge of Allah with the learned to the effect that they should not acquiesce in the gluttony of the oppressor and the hunger of the oppressed I would have cast the rope of Caliphate on its own shoulders, and would have given the last one the same treatment as to the first one. Then you would have seen that in my view this world of yours is no better than the sneezing of a goat.

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^Salam,

Thank you brother. As you may know, I've been a Sunni Muslim my whole life, and have been only researching Shia Islam for about a year now. If i may come off as condescending, I apologize. I am only trying to reach the truth.

Salaam Alaykum,

I pray that you succeed in your aim.

Here is a small video that will be beneficial

Wassalaam.

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Is that hadith authentic?

I am not sure about this one but the one that says everyone left the religion except three or seven after the demise of the Prophet (saw) is authentic according to Shia.

^Salam,

Thank you brother. As you may know, I've been a Sunni Muslim my whole life, and have been only researching Shia Islam for about a year now. If i may come off as condescending, I apologize. I am only trying to reach the truth.

Waleykum Salaam,

Brother you have been Sunni all your life (and insha'Allah you will remain on this right path) but how is your knowledge about Sunni Islam?

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^Salam,

Thank you brother. As you may know, I've been a Sunni Muslim my whole life, and have been only researching Shia Islam for about a year now. If i may come off as condescending, I apologize. I am only trying to reach the truth.

Its all right but please use your knowledge think, dont be bias, spread everything you know out and see it from all sides, if it is true believe if it is not dont.

Allah chooses the caliphs and representatives of his religion not people. When did Allah or the prophet ask the people to choose? Does Allah not give a guide to ALL nations (verse in the quran)? Wouldn't Allah have done something to keep the true path after the prophet? Wouldnt Allah have given us a guide after the prophet? Wouldnt the prophet have said what will guide us after him? Quran isnt enough because everyone interprets it in their own way there is no true interpretation (which is why Imam Ali's case is logical). The sunnah isnt enough because everyone has their own sunnah (which is why there is maliki shafai hanbali hanafi having different rules an dregulations). It had to be Quran and Ahlulbayt, it makes perfect sense, there had to be Imams without prophethood, there is no other way to unity but that. They were the flesh of the prophet, they were the knowledge of the prophet, they were the living prophet, they were the FAMILY of the prophet!

Just something to ponder about,

Wa Salaam

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Salam brother,

Are you involved in that Facebook group relating to Sunni and Shia dialogue? I think I saw you post there earlier today. I've been a avid fan of yours for the last few months with your detailed analysis of a lot of issues and was hoping you would soon post on here. Now I have one question that you may be able to answer: Did Imam Ali (a.s.) ever claim divine Imamate?

(bismillah)

(salam)

Firstly thank you for your kind words which I don't deserve, and yes, someone was asking the people in the chatroom to join so I just joined then but don't post there to often. Now you as an interesting question, did he ever claim Imamate? Now keep in mind his Imamate would be a doctrainal name for the practical aspects of Wilayat all gathered together under the Ayat 4:59 (Oh you oh believe, obey Allah, obey his Prophet, and those in authority from amongst you), and a continuation of 2:124 (I will make you an Imam for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."). Now Wilayat is then divided into four main aspects:

1. Wilayat of political leadership, and we know Imam Ali demanded this, he demanded his right to this and never stopped speaking out against it, a great example of this is Nahjul Balagha Sermon 74: You have certainly known that I am the most rightful of all others for the Caliphate. By Allah, so long as the affairs of Muslims remain intact and there is no oppression in it save on myself I shall keep quiet seeking reward for it (from Allah) and keeping aloof from its attractions and allurements for which you aspire.

2. Wilayat in the spiritual or religious aspect; and we all know Imam Ali [as] was always seen as the go to guy for religious matters, no one was more concious of the religious of Allah after the Prophet [sawaws] than Imam Ali [as]. Even Tahir Al Qadri says that Ghadeer (ignoring it was the last appointment of all Wilayat not just one) is when Imam Ali [as] became our spiritual guardian.

3.Wilayat in the aspect of knowledge of the Prophet [sawaws]. Now we say that Imam Ali [as] inherited the knowledge of the Prophet [sawaws], and his knowledge is known by all untested Imam Ali [as] himself said "Salooni Salooni Qabla Untaf Qadooni" (refer to kitaab kafi page 26 for the very long situation this Hadeeth was uttered with it's addition). And even Umar had said "If Ali [as] was not there Umar would have perished" (This Hadeeth is in both Shi'a and Sunni books, and in many different Sunni books, here are a few; Shahr Nahjul Balagha of Ibn Abul Hadeed Volume 1 Page 18, Tafseer Al Kabeer by Al Razi Volume 21 Page 22, Tafseer Sam`aani Volume 5 Page 154, etc). And the Prophet [sawaws] said that Imam Ali [as] is the door to his city of knowledge (this hadeeth is reported as mutawatir and beyond Tirmidhi as well on different chains).

4. Wilayat over the atoms, now this is a tricky concept to grasp, they are not the sole masters over it rather they are with the permission of Allah, nor is this a new idea, this is the same old idea presented in the Qur`an. Musa [as] split a sea in half, for God's sake, Isa [as] could heal lepers, cure the sick, made a clay statue of a bird into a real bird. Sulayman had power over the winds, talked to animals, had control of the gyms. Mohammad [sawaws] split the moon in half. The Prophets all had this ability to do this before, it's not a new one that the Imams continue this.

Imamate was then the doctraine attached to this mandate, it was the continuation of what the Prophets were in position (the Imams were not Prophets remember that, I'm not saying their mission was the same, but their position was the same in status of Wilayat) and their mission was to guide (refer to the Prophet [sawaws]'s Hadeeth on him being the messenger, and Imam Ali [as] being the guide after), and as for did he claim such a position, we refer to Khutba 3 of Nahjul Balagha:

Beware! By Allah the son of Abu Quhafah (Abu Bakr) dressed himself with it (the caliphate) and he certainly knew that my position in relation to it was the same as the position of the axis in relation to the hand-mill. The flood water flows down from me and the bird cannot fly upto me. I put a curtain against the caliphate and kept myself detached from it.

And remember the famous Hadeeth of Manzila:

This hadith has been narrated. on the authority of Shu'ba with the same chain of transmitters. Amir b. Sa'd b. Abi Waqqas reported on the authority of his father that Muawiya b. Abi Sufyin appointed Sa'd as the Governor and said: What prevents you from abusing Abu Turab (Hadrat 'Ali), whereupon be said: It is because of three things which I remember Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said about him that I would not abuse him and even if I find one of those three things for me, it would be more dear to me than the red camelg. I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) say about 'Ali as he left behind hrin in one of his campaigns (that was Tabuk). 'All said to him: Allah's Messenger, you leave me behind along with women and children. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to him: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there is no prophethood after me. And I (also) heard him say on the Day of Khaibar: I would certainly give this standard to a person who loves Allah and his Messenger and Allah and his Messenger love him too. He (the narrator) said: We have been anxiously waiting for it, when he (the Holy Prophet) said: Call 'Ali. He was called and his eyes were inflamed. He applied saliva to his eyes and handed over the standard to him, and Allah gave him victory. (The third occasion is this) when the (following) verse was revealed:" Let us summon our children and your children." Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) called 'Ali, Fitima, Hasan and Husain and said: O Allah, they are my family.

Sahih Muslim Book 31 Volume 5915

And the Prophet [sawaws] only puts the differentiation of him not being the Prophet after, so that really raises the interesting question.

(salam)

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I am not sure about this one but the one that says everyone left the religion except three or seven after the demise of the Prophet (saw) is authentic according to Shia.

Waleykum Salaam,

Brother you have been Sunni all your life (and insha'Allah you will remain on this right path) but how is your knowledge about Sunni Islam?

I would easily say that I'm not as knowledgeable I should be for the particular madhab I am currently in. This is why I'm trying to get two sides to the story here and not only trying to research about Shia but also more about Sunni Islam. Shia Islam does have very good evidence for their beliefs and has started to make me question some of the beliefs I hold.

(bismillah)

(salam)

Firstly thank you for your kind words which I don't deserve, and yes, someone was asking the people in the chatroom to join so I just joined then but don't post there to often. Now you as an interesting question, did he ever claim Imamate? Now keep in mind his Imamate would be a doctrainal name for the practical aspects of Wilayat all gathered together under the Ayat 4:59 (Oh you oh believe, obey Allah, obey his Prophet, and those in authority from amongst you), and a continuation of 2:124 (I will make you an Imam for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."). Now Wilayat is then divided into four main aspects:

1. Wilayat of political leadership, and we know Imam Ali demanded this, he demanded his right to this and never stopped speaking out against it, a great example of this is Nahjul Balagha Sermon 74: You have certainly known that I am the most rightful of all others for the Caliphate. By Allah, so long as the affairs of Muslims remain intact and there is no oppression in it save on myself I shall keep quiet seeking reward for it (from Allah) and keeping aloof from its attractions and allurements for which you aspire.

2. Wilayat in the spiritual or religious aspect; and we all know Imam Ali [as] was always seen as the go to guy for religious matters, no one was more concious of the religious of Allah after the Prophet [sawaws] than Imam Ali [as]. Even Tahir Al Qadri says that Ghadeer (ignoring it was the last appointment of all Wilayat not just one) is when Imam Ali [as] became our spiritual guardian.

3.Wilayat in the aspect of knowledge of the Prophet [sawaws]. Now we say that Imam Ali [as] inherited the knowledge of the Prophet [sawaws], and his knowledge is known by all untested Imam Ali [as] himself said "Salooni Salooni Qabla Untaf Qadooni" (refer to kitaab kafi page 26 for the very long situation this Hadeeth was uttered with it's addition). And even Umar had said "If Ali [as] was not there Umar would have perished" (This Hadeeth is in both Shi'a and Sunni books, and in many different Sunni books, here are a few; Shahr Nahjul Balagha of Ibn Abul Hadeed Volume 1 Page 18, Tafseer Al Kabeer by Al Razi Volume 21 Page 22, Tafseer Sam`aani Volume 5 Page 154, etc). And the Prophet [sawaws] said that Imam Ali [as] is the door to his city of knowledge (this hadeeth is reported as mutawatir and beyond Tirmidhi as well on different chains).

4. Wilayat over the atoms, now this is a tricky concept to grasp, they are not the sole masters over it rather they are with the permission of Allah, nor is this a new idea, this is the same old idea presented in the Qur`an. Musa [as] split a sea in half, for God's sake, Isa [as] could heal lepers, cure the sick, made a clay statue of a bird into a real bird. Sulayman had power over the winds, talked to animals, had control of the gyms. Mohammad [sawaws] split the moon in half. The Prophets all had this ability to do this before, it's not a new one that the Imams continue this.

Imamate was then the doctraine attached to this mandate, it was the continuation of what the Prophets were in position (the Imams were not Prophets remember that, I'm not saying their mission was the same, but their position was the same in status of Wilayat) and their mission was to guide (refer to the Prophet [sawaws]'s Hadeeth on him being the messenger, and Imam Ali [as] being the guide after), and as for did he claim such a position, we refer to Khutba 3 of Nahjul Balagha:

And remember the famous Hadeeth of Manzila:

And the Prophet [sawaws] only puts the differentiation of him not being the Prophet after, so that really raises the interesting question.

(salam)

Thank you brother.

Edited by igotquestions

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Sunni Hadith

ثنا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُثَنَّى ، حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ حَمَّادٍ ، عَنْ أَبِي عَوَانَةَ ، عَنْ يَحْيَى بْنِ سُلَيْمٍ أَبِي بَلْجٍ ، عَنْ عَمْرِو بْنِ مَيْمُونٍ ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ ، قَالَ : قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ لِعَلِيٍّ : " أَنْتَ مِنِّي بِمَنْزِلَةِ هَارُونَ مِنْ مُوسَى ، إِلا أَنَّكَ لَسْتَ نَبِيًّا ، إِنَّهُ لا يَنْبَغِي أَنْ أَذْهَبَ إِلا وَأَنْتَ خَلِيفَتِي فِي كُلِّ مُؤْمِنٍ مِنْ بَعْدِي

Narrated from Ibn Abbas: The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said to Ali: "You are to me like Harun in relation to Moses, the only difference is that there is no Prophet after me. And truly I ought to go only if you're my Caliph for every believer after me. "

Al-Sunnah by Ibn Abi Asim Vol 3, page 183

→ Zilalatil Jannah Fi Tahridzhis Sunnah by Albani page 519-520 Hadith Number # 1188

'Isnaad is valid and transmitters are reliable' ( Hasan )

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Sunni Hadith

ثنا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُثَنَّى ، حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ حَمَّادٍ ، عَنْ أَبِي عَوَانَةَ ، عَنْ يَحْيَى بْنِ سُلَيْمٍ أَبِي بَلْجٍ ، عَنْ عَمْرِو بْنِ مَيْمُونٍ ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ ، قَالَ : قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ لِعَلِيٍّ : " أَنْتَ مِنِّي بِمَنْزِلَةِ هَارُونَ مِنْ مُوسَى ، إِلا أَنَّكَ لَسْتَ نَبِيًّا ، إِنَّهُ لا يَنْبَغِي أَنْ أَذْهَبَ إِلا وَأَنْتَ خَلِيفَتِي فِي كُلِّ مُؤْمِنٍ مِنْ بَعْدِي

Narrated from Ibn Abbas: The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said to Ali: "You are to me like Harun in relation to Moses, the only difference is that there is no Prophet after me. And truly I ought to go only if you're my Caliph for every believer after me. "

Al-Sunnah by Ibn Abi Asim Vol 3, page 183

→ Zilalatil Jannah Fi Tahridzhis Sunnah by Albani page 519-520 Hadith Number # 1188

'Isnaad is valid and transmitters are reliable' ( Hasan )

I see that the word "caliph" is used again as we also see in the 12 Caliphs hadith as well. Very interesting.

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I see that the word "caliph" is used again as we also see in the 12 Caliphs hadith as well. Very interesting.

Also the Hadeeth said in the thread I posted in, also explained the use of Mawla at Ghadeer.

Ali [as] narrated: When the verse of 26:214 came down: "And warn your near family." The Prophet [sawaws] organized a feast known as 'The invitation of the Family' (Da`wat Dhul `Asheera), the Prophet had invited around 40 men (or in other translations, 40 excluding or including one) from Bani Hashim and asked me to make preparations for food and drinks. After having served his guests with food and drinks, when the Prophet [sawaws] wanted to speak to them about Islam, Abu Lahab forestalled him and said, "Your host has long since bewitched you." All the guests left before the Prophet [sawaws] could speak then.The Prophet [sawaws] made arrangements the next day, and spoke saying: "Oh sons of Abdul Muttalib! By Allah, I don't know any person who from the Arabs who has come to his people with better news than what I brought you. I have brought to you the good of this world and the hereafter, and I have been ordered by the lord to call you unto him. Therefore who amongst you will support me in this issue, so that he will be my Akhee, my Wasiyyi, and my Khalifati, from you? Though in my young age, I stood up and said; "I will be your aid, Oh Messenger of Allah!" The Prophet put his hands on my neck and said; "Verily this is my brother, my inheritor, and my successor from amongst you, listen to him and obey him" (Inna Hadha Akhee, Wa Wasiyyi, Wa Khalifati Feekum, Fasma'oo Lahoo Wa Atee'yoo). Abu Lahab started laughing at Abu Talib saying he has to obey his son now."

Sanad is also talked about there.

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Also the Hadeeth said in the thread I posted in, also explained the use of Mawla at Ghadeer.

Sanad is also talked about there.

Salam,

It's very interesting after the event of Ghadeer that Umar (r.a.) and other Sahaba (r.a.) gave thanks to Imam Ali (a.s.). So, if they allegedly gave Bayah, then what was the point of the meeting at Saqeefah? And if it was clear that Abu Bakr (r.a.) was suppose to be the successor, then why did they all meet up at Saqeefa in the first place?

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Salam,

It's very interesting after the event of Ghadeer that Umar (r.a.) and other Sahaba (r.a.) gave thanks to Imam Ali (a.s.). So, if they allegedly gave Bayah, then what was the point of the meeting at Saqeefah? And if it was clear that Abu Bakr (r.a.) was suppose to be the successor, then why did they all meet up at Saqeefa in the first place?

Waleykum Salaam,

Good question.

Also, why not a single person mentioned 'Ghadir', even Ali (ra) himself, when Abubakr (ra) was being elected as the first successor of the Prophet (saw)?

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