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Nuriyah Khanam

Was Female Circumcision Allowed By The Prophet?

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Salaam Sisters.

Did the Holy Prophet (pbuh) allow/encourage this practice in His family, amongst Ahl-ul-Bayt and close companions?

Female circumcision is not a common pratice amongst Shiah Muslims especially not in Iran or Iraq. However it is very common with many African Sunni Muslims, Egypt and Afghanistan Salafi Pashtuns.

I found no evidence linking this practice to the daughters of our first Imam.

Can anyone shed some light please?

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56 – Chapter on the obligatoriness of circumcision (al-khitan) upon men and the non-obligatoriness of circumcision (al-khafd) upon women

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Ibn Mahbub from Ibn Ri’ab from Abu Basir – meaning al-Muradi. He said: I asked Abu Ja`far Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã about the girl (or, slave-girl) who is captured from the land of shirk, and she becomes Muslim, so it is sought of her that she be circumcised, but a woman is not available. So he said: As to the Sunna, then circumcision is upon men, and it is not upon women.

2 – And from him from Ahmad from Muhammad b. `Isa from `Abdullah b. Sinan from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: Circumcision of boys is from the Sunna, and circumcision of girls is not from the Sunna.

3 – And from `Ali b. Ibrahim from Harun b. Muslim from Mas`ada b. Sadaqa from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: Circumcision of the girl is a noble deed (makruma), and it is not from the Sunna, nor is it something obligatory. And which thing is better than the noble deed?

And al-Himyari narrated it in Qurb al-Isnad from Harun b. Muslim.

And the Shaykh narrated it by his isnad from Muhammad b. Ya`qub, and likewise the first.

http://www.*******.org/hadiths/wasail/marriage/children/chapter-56

18 – Chapter on that there is no harm with the circumcision of girls, and its etiquette

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from a number of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Abi Nasr from Harun b. a-Jahm from Muhammad b. Muslim from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: When the women emigrated to the Messenger of Allah Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå, a woman emigrated amongst them who was called Umm Habib, and she was a circumciser, circumcising girls. So when the Messenger of Allah Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå saw her, he said to her: O Umm Habib, the work which was in your hand, is it in your hand today? She said: Yes, O Messenger of Allah, except if it is haram, then prohibit me from it. He said: Rather, it halal. So draw near to me in order that I might teach you. She said: So I drew near to him. So he said: O Umm Habib, when you do (it), then do not exhaust (i.e. do not exaggerate on the cutting) and do not uproot, and sniff (i.e. cut slightly), for verily it is brighter for the face and more favorable with the husband – al-hadith

And the Shaykh narrated it by his isnad from Ahmad b. Muhammad its like.

2 – And from them from Sahl b. Ziyad from `Ali b. Asbat from Khalaf b. Hammad from `Amr b. Thabit from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: There was a woman called Umm Tayyiba, she circumcised the girls. So the Prophet Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå called her and said to her: O Umm Tayba, when you circumcise then sniff and do not strip off (?), for verily it is clearer for the face and more favorable with the husband.

Muhammad b. al-Hasan by his isnad from Muhammad b. Ya`qub likewise.

3 – And by his isnad from Muhammad b. Ahmad b. Yahya from Abu Ja`far from his father from Wahb from Ja`far from his father from `Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: Do not circumcise the girl until she attains seven years.

http://www.*******.org/hadiths/wasail/trade/means-of-earning/chapter-18

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56 – Chapter on the obligatoriness of circumcision (al-khitan) upon men and the non-obligatoriness of circumcision (al-khafd) upon women

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Ibn Mahbub from Ibn Ri’ab from Abu Basir – meaning al-Muradi. He said: I asked Abu Ja`far Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã about the girl (or, slave-girl) who is captured from the land of shirk, and she becomes Muslim, so it is sought of her that she be circumcised, but a woman is not available. So he said: As to the Sunna, then circumcision is upon men, and it is not upon women.

2 – And from him from Ahmad from Muhammad b. `Isa from `Abdullah b. Sinan from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: Circumcision of boys is from the Sunna, and circumcision of girls is not from the Sunna.

3 – And from `Ali b. Ibrahim from Harun b. Muslim from Mas`ada b. Sadaqa from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: Circumcision of the girl is a noble deed (makruma), and it is not from the Sunna, nor is it something obligatory. And which thing is better than the noble deed?

And al-Himyari narrated it in Qurb al-Isnad from Harun b. Muslim.

And the Shaykh narrated it by his isnad from Muhammad b. Ya`qub, and likewise the first.

http://www.tashayyu....dren/chapter-56

18 – Chapter on that there is no harm with the circumcision of girls, and its etiquette

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from a number of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Abi Nasr from Harun b. a-Jahm from Muhammad b. Muslim from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: When the women emigrated to the Messenger of Allah Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå, a woman emigrated amongst them who was called Umm Habib, and she was a circumciser, circumcising girls. So when the Messenger of Allah Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå saw her, he said to her: O Umm Habib, the work which was in your hand, is it in your hand today? She said: Yes, O Messenger of Allah, except if it is haram, then prohibit me from it. He said: Rather, it halal. So draw near to me in order that I might teach you. She said: So I drew near to him. So he said: O Umm Habib, when you do (it), then do not exhaust (i.e. do not exaggerate on the cutting) and do not uproot, and sniff (i.e. cut slightly), for verily it is brighter for the face and more favorable with the husband – al-hadith

And the Shaykh narrated it by his isnad from Ahmad b. Muhammad its like.

2 – And from them from Sahl b. Ziyad from `Ali b. Asbat from Khalaf b. Hammad from `Amr b. Thabit from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: There was a woman called Umm Tayyiba, she circumcised the girls. So the Prophet Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå called her and said to her: O Umm Tayba, when you circumcise then sniff and do not strip off (?), for verily it is clearer for the face and more favorable with the husband.

Muhammad b. al-Hasan by his isnad from Muhammad b. Ya`qub likewise.

3 – And by his isnad from Muhammad b. Ahmad b. Yahya from Abu Ja`far from his father from Wahb from Ja`far from his father from `Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: Do not circumcise the girl until she attains seven years.

http://www.tashayyu....ning/chapter-18

Ye mate she was talking about whether the Prophet did this to his daughters, not about whether its commendable or not.

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On 11/16/2012 at 2:23 PM, Lanatin said:

Ye mate she was talking about whether the Prophet did this to his daughters, not about whether its commendable or not.

Yeah, I'm aware of that, but in the mean time, I thought I'd post that.

There is one narration that could point to it:

And from `Ali b. Ibrahim from Harun b. Muslim from Mas`ada b. Sadaqa from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: Circumcision of the girl is a noble deed (makruma), and it is not from the Sunna, nor is it something obligatory. And which thing is better than the noble deed?

Would the Prophet (s) not perform every deed to its best, so it wouldn't be such a far stretch to imagine this.

At any rate (pardon my ignorance) but isn't the islamic cicurcumsion (where only a little bit is removed) supposed to give a woman more pleasure?

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Salam,

Could someone tell me if your mothers got circumcised and if they got more, less, medium, medium high, medium low, none, or were they moaning so high that your neighbors started peeping in, while they were getting pleasure with your father(s) or the milk man? Please be elaborate as some of us here need details so we could find how close your ancestors were from the mustahibat.

I didnt want to laugh but looooool...

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Yeah, I'm aware of that, but in the mean time, I thought I'd post that.

There is one narration that could point to it:

And from `Ali b. Ibrahim from Harun b. Muslim from Mas`ada b. Sadaqa from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: Circumcision of the girl is a noble deed (makruma), and it is not from the Sunna, nor is it something obligatory. And which thing is better than the noble deed?

Would the Prophet (s) not perform every deed to its best, so it wouldn't be such a far stretch to imagine this.

At any rate (pardon my ignorance) but isn't the islamic cicurcumsion (where only a little bit is removed) supposed to give a woman more pleasure?

Yes but the Prophet isn't a programmed robot, that's why the above hadith says female circumcision isnt even part of the sunna (let alone it being obligatory).

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Yeah, I'm aware of that, but in the mean time, I thought I'd post that.

There is one narration that could point to it:

And from `Ali b. Ibrahim from Harun b. Muslim from Mas`ada b. Sadaqa from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: Circumcision of the girl is a noble deed (makruma), and it is not from the Sunna, nor is it something obligatory. And which thing is better than the noble deed?

Would the Prophet (s) not perform every deed to its best, so it wouldn't be such a far stretch to imagine this.

At any rate (pardon my ignorance) but isn't the islamic cicurcumsion (where only a little bit is removed) supposed to give a woman more pleasure?

This Hadith is not Mu'tabar, since there is no Tawthiq for Mas`ada b. Sadaqa.

Thus it is Majhul.

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(salam)

(bismillah)

Based off these narrations, in the broad sense of the definition, this can be considered Sunnah. Sunnah is every actions or tacit approval of an action, and since the Prophet showed the female circumciser how to do it the right way, that is definitely a tacit approval.

What people do not seem to get is that this form of circumcision does not fully remove the certain part of the lady, instead the Prophet specifically says do not remove it all.

It is an established fact that Female Circumcision was around at the time of the Prophet, can someone find an authentic hadeeth where the Prophet forbade that from happening? Of course not. On the other hand, you have authentic hadeeth, from both Sunnis and Shee`ahs, of the Prophet showing certain women how to do this action.

We, Muslims, need to stop looking at Islam from the viewpoint of a Non-Muslims, instead look at it from the viewpoint of a Muslim. When we start doing that, half of these random viewpoints won't exist.

(salam)

Edited by Nader Zaveri

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I haven't read all the comments but I know girls who have been circumcised and been traumatised...

I don't know how relevant this is to the topic but some girls get sewn up in order to prevent them from sinning and when it's time to get married they get un sewn...this happened to my classmate :wacko:

Technically it is not obligatory for men to be circumcised, but they are anyways because one day they will need to attend Hajj.

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At any rate (pardon my ignorance) but isn't the islamic cicurcumsion (where only a little bit is removed) supposed to give a woman more pleasure?

I don,t no if your talking about men or women but if it,s women it,s actually the opposite it is done to reduce the women libido which reduces there desire for sexual activity

Edited by AJ 12

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I don,t no if your talking about men or women but if it,s women it,s actually the opposite it is done to reduce the women libido which reduces there desire for sexual activity

Well, that just doesn't make too much sense to me, because islam puts a lot of emphasis on satisfying you partner before you satisfy yourself, so how can she be incapable of feeling pleasure?

If the answer is that that proves that female circumcision is in some way not allowed, then how do you explain the narrations about it?

But I do seem to recall reading that the proper method of circumcision for women, is supposed to give them more pleasure, I could be wrong though.

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This is not a topic I like to read. But even if it sunnah, their are young girls that are dieing in the middle of the process in egypt,ethiopia and africa and elsewere.

Their not getting it done by professtionals either, specially in those countries and the equitment they use might pass infaction because these people are uneducate the can cut something thats not meant to be cut and god nows if the girl will survive.

This whole topic is painful to read....

And who the hell thinks of pleasure when they have to go throu all that bloody pain...

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Well, that just doesn't make too much sense to me, because islam puts a lot of emphasis on satisfying you partner before you satisfy yourself, so how can she be incapable of feeling pleasure?

If the answer is that that proves that female circumcision is in some way not allowed, then how do you explain the narrations about it?

But I do seem to recall reading that the proper method of circumcision for women, is supposed to give them more pleasure, I could be wrong though.

In Islam as you know it is Haram to deny women any pleasure during intercourse building on that there different types of circumcision with the removing of the clitoral prepuce being i,am not quite sure but i believe it might be alright because i don,t think it does anything to the pleasure that women experience but other procedures that would affect women pleasure being obviously Haram.

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Your logic seems a little faulty. If there are ahadith that say female circumcision is not part of the sunnah and other ahadith where the Prophet (SAW) told a person that if they do it then they should not do it in a certain way but in a more limited way then this only implies that it is not forbidden. It is a big leap to say it is recommended when the other hadith say it is not from the sunnah. Just because the Prophet (SAW) allowed it does not make it from the sunnah but could be an acceptance of certain local traditions that existed at that time.

(salam)

(bismillah)

Based off these narrations, in the broad sense of the definition, this can be considered Sunnah. Sunnah is every actions or tacit approval of an action, and since the Prophet showed the female circumciser how to do it the right way, that is definitely a tacit approval.

What people do not seem to get is that this form of circumcision does not fully remove the certain part of the lady, instead the Prophet specifically says do not remove it all.

It is an established fact that Female Circumcision was around at the time of the Prophet, can someone find an authentic hadeeth where the Prophet forbade that from happening? Of course not. On the other hand, you have authentic hadeeth, from both Sunnis and Shee`ahs, of the Prophet showing certain women how to do this action.

We, Muslims, need to stop looking at Islam from the viewpoint of a Non-Muslims, instead look at it from the viewpoint of a Muslim. When we start doing that, half of these random viewpoints won't exist.

(salam)

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Don't want to get into details here but this is probably harram. It's cruel, damn right painful, and it would wreck the womans intimate marital life with her husband.

edit: i don't want to get into any more details, but if their circumsising the part people have asserted from this thread, oh boy. that' gonna hurt. good night sweet prince. How on earth can it be allowed.

Edited by Logical Islam

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Salaam Alaykum.

Male circumcision can be discussed but when the same subject of the opposite gender is raised there is stll alot of discrimination. To this day large muslim populations perform this act so why should it not be discussed esoecialy as these women are to this day suffering. My question was simple - is it really recommended by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) or is it another way of creating excuses for afflicting cruelty to female infants. Should this topic be of no concern to you then you are not obliged to participate and this is mainly a sisters forum. I have raised this issue as I have a friend who needs this kind of advice and to seek knowledge is not a sin.

Firstly may I clarify there is no actually thing as female circumcision in the sense that a female does not have foreskin and I repeat skin. I will try to put this as briefly as possible as I do not wish to cause offense and intent to only clarify some terms. A female has the clitoris gland which is similar to the male fore- gland respectively. Therefeore a male circumcision is rightfully done by surgically removing the foreskin not his actual gland, wheras a female has no foreskin in the first place to have the need to be removed and what is removed of her which is part or the whole of the clitiris this is her actual gland which is like cutting of a male top/fore gland... therefore a female circumcision is actually mutillation not circumcision atall. However bearing in mind there are two pratcices of female CM one being much more severe that the other and worse still done when the female is a defenceless infant without the choice makes this pratice very unfair indeed.

From the hadith who someone has kindly posted I take that the holy Prophet (pbuh) mentioned it is ok to carry out the female CM minor (which is removing a thin layer of the female cl glad) once she is over seven years old. Unfortunately the most comon pratice of female CM is th CM major (the entire cl gland removed plus stitching togther the labia folds) which is not only barbaric but a mutilation that can never be replaced unlike the male foreskin.

This is all I wished to point out to the sisters. But I still have not had any positive response, Its a pity as I always thought that Islam has the answers to everything or does it seem that when there are no answers one is brought down with guilt or shame.

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@ Nuriyah Khanam - Good post

-------------

Circumcision of the male child is a mandatory Islamic custom. This is very important for the health and hygiene of the child. This operation will prevent the child against the possible infection of the male genital organ. The circumcision can be postponed till the child grows up, but it is better to perform it within the first few days of the birth. Islam prescribes that the circumcision should be done on the seventh day of the birth of a male child.

Imam Jafer al Sadiq says:

“Do the circumcision of your child on the seventh day of his birth. This is best for him. It is also beneficial for his proper growth and upbringing. Certainly, the earth abhors the urine of the person who has not been circumcised".(Wasail al-shiah, v15, p. 171)

The Holy Prophet says:

“The new born must be circumcised on the seventh day of its birth that he gets healthy growth and upbringing." (Wasail al-shiah, v15, p. 175)

http://www.al-islam....bringing/26.htm

-------------

There are specific authentic references to male circumcision but I do not see any authentic reference to female circumcision

Please understand; this procedure, as practiced in many African countries, is brutal, disgusting and terrorizing - it is not done in a sterile environment and the victim is a child (not infant).

Side Note:

Jews perform male circumcision as part of their covenant with God

Edited by Samndeen

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female circumcision is just ridiculous. let's weed culture out of religion before we becoming laughing stocks of objective onlookers.

Why would you say this? Do you feel the same way about male circumcision?

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female circumcision is just ridiculous. let's weed culture out of religion before we becoming laughing stocks of objective onlookers.

The pharaonic circumcision performed in traditional societies in africa is wholly different than the mild one prescribed by our traditions (nothing worse than male circumcision) ; do your research and stop being hasty in conclusions as you usually are ahlul bayt.

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yeah i think female circumcision is dumb because men have way more desire than women anyway. To say its to prevent a woman from sinning is like saying youre gonna cut off the hands of a little boy to prevent him from stealing ever in his life -.-' there would be much better ways to prevent the little boy from stealing when he gets older, like helping him understand why stealing is bad... likewise, sewing up a girl or major female circumcision is not at all the best way to prevent a women from sinning, help teach her why zinna is bad.

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Firstly may I clarify there is no actually thing as female circumcision in the sense that a female does not have foreskin and I repeat skin. I will try to put this as briefly as possible as I do not wish to cause offense and intent to only clarify some terms. A female has the clitoris gland which is similar to the male fore- gland respectively. Therefeore a male circumcision is rightfully done by surgically removing the foreskin not his actual gland, wheras a female has no foreskin in the first place to have the need to be removed and what is removed of her which is part or the whole of the clitiris this is her actual gland which is like cutting of a male top/fore gland... therefore a female circumcision is actually mutillation not circumcision atall. However bearing in mind there are two pratcices of female CM one being much more severe that the other and worse still done when the female is a defenceless infant without the choice makes this pratice very unfair indeed.

This is all I wished to point out to the sisters. But I still have not had any positive response, Its a pity as I always thought that Islam has the answers to everything or does it seem that when there are no answers one is brought down with guilt or shame.

You said your friend need to know something about female circumcision? What exactly does she needs to know? Does she have specific questions about it?

Generally people have a very negative impression of female circumcisions. And rightly so, if you only knew how the African and the Egyptian circumcised their girls. It's very cruel and barbaric. They literally stitch the girl up down there when she is very young and reopen the stitches when she is almost ready to get married. I can almost provide you all the graphic details and the horrors of this practice because I had two friends (girls) who went thru this type of circumcision, an Egyptian and a Sudanese.

There are other form of female circumcisions. The least harmless (this term is very subjective) is the one where they do a minor cut on the hood of the clitoris.

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You said your friend need to know something about female circumcision? What exactly does she needs to know? Does she have specific questions about it?

Generally people have a very negative impression of female circumcisions. And rightly so, if you only knew how the African and the Egyptian circumcised their girls. It's very cruel and barbaric. They literally stitch the girl up down there when she is very young and reopen the stitches when she is almost ready to get married. I can almost provide you all the graphic details and the horrors of this practice because I had two friends (girls) who went thru this type of circumcision, an Egyptian and a Sudanese.

There are other form of female circumcisions. The least harmless (this term is very subjective) is the one where they do a minor cut on the hood of the clitoris.

I always wondered about the stitching up part.... Doesnt that cause problems when the girl gets her period?

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There's always a small opening for urine and menstrual blood.

Yes but most of them are plagued with urinary tract and kidney infections because there never seems to be enough opening.

Just google for pictures....it's quite disturbing

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Even the process is completely unhygienic. I doubt they even knew about sterilizing equipments or anesthetic. My friend told me all the horror stories of the day before the wedding, the wedding night and child birth. I'm not going to google this since this happened to a friend of mine. Frankly, I'm still traumatized by her story. I can't imagine something so cruel happening to her. And do you know that the person who did this to her was her grandmother. Even her mother had some lukewarm support for this practice. Her father was completely against this barbaric African tribal practice. But they did it without him knowing about it. He was outraged when he found it out.

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