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Nuriyah Khanam

Peter Or James...

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Hi Nuriyah,

The successors to Jesus were the 11 Apostles whom Jesus called , and who are named here, when He sent them out on this mission. in Matthew 10:

1.And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease.

2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was[a] Thaddaeus;

4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.

--- As stated Judas betrayed Jesus, --- but the 11, remained faithful and were there to witness Jesus' resurrection and later His ascention.

Before Jesus was parted from them He said they would receive power when the Holy Spirit came upon them, in Acts 1:

7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own autority.

8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,

11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day’s journey.

13 And when they had entered, they went up into the upper room where they were staying: Peter, James, John, and Andrew; Philip and Thomas; Bartholomew and Matthew; James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot; and Judas the son of James.

14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

--- Notice that Jesus' mother and brothers were with the Apostles, as well as other women, who may have included His sisters.

This promised coming of the Holy Spirit that empowered them is recorded next in Acts 2:

1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.

3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.

6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.

7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans?

8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?

9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,

10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,

11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.”

12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?”

--- While they were all witnesses, --- the 11 Apostles carried the Gospel to other areas and other countries.

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Peace / Salaam

Which Apostle was the rightful successor of Jesus... Peter or James (his half-brother or Cousin-brother)?

Quite honestly, none were worthy.

God appoints a Messenger, man appoints a successor. Sounds all downhill from there.

That's the reason Shia post here and Sunni post there...

Edited by Son of Placid

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Jesus said, go the way of James the Righteous, Just as Muhammad said go the way of Ali.

James worked with his Brothers and established laws which mirror and reflect Islamic Law.

If Judaism is all downhill, and Christianity is downhill, and Islam is downhill, then it is our Responsibility to Put it Back Together Again.

Allah Commanded we Read Torah, and Injil, and read it we should.

Anonymous Reply:

November 5th, 2012 at 10:37 am

A Word for All of Us.

It has been drawn to my attention that the path of Hurricane Sandy made the shape of the Hebrew Letter LAMED, ל I find that most interesting as this letter in Hebrew means to learn, it also speaks of the King of Kings. This very strongly indicates to me that the King of Kings is not only telling us something but He is teaching us how He feels about what is happening in the United States of America.

When I first noticed the path of the storm Sandy looked like Lamed, I stopped and begin to pray over this, and during prayer and asking God what did this mean, I heard in my spirit that small still voice that speaks to those who know His Voice.

“This is the beginning of Great Sorrows for the Churches have fornicated with other gods and have offered up prayers that are a stench to my nostrils. Those who have called themselves people of God have deceived the people and fed their own bellies with unclean foods of greed and spiritual pride. No man can save them now, for those who know me and I them must know My Word is the Beginning and the End of all things, now it must rain on the just and the unjust alike. There is still time for repentance for those who have sinned against Me, but Judgment now will fall on the Nations who have come against Jerusalem and My people.

As for Jerusalem I say to you, I will cleanse my house first, fall on your faces and repent before it is too late. You have invited horrible sins into My House and the time for cleansing has come near.

END of MESSAGE

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I did place a post to you, but I deleted it because I thought it more important for people to read your post about Joseph.

I wanted to clarify with you about James in the Bible. The reason is because I have a theory that perhaps James was actually one person but mentioned in different ways during his life. For example, 1. James brother of John, sons of thunder, because they were impulsive, 2. James brother of Judas and half brother to Jesus, 3. James the Young at the time of crucifixion, 4. James the Apostle A.D. who helped establish laws which are very similar to Islam.

God mentioned that for every Israeli there is an Ismaili, and if Muhammad said he is closest to Jesus, then I thought maybe James was closest to Imam Ali. Jesus mentioned to go the way of James the Righteous. So I was interested in your view regarding all of this. Thanks.

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Hi JHK,

I agree that the time has come to repent and seek God's will for our lives in our Churches.

Some have become social gatherings with a loss of spirituality.

God gave a message to the Children of Israel in 2 Chronicles 7:

14. If My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

It's time for this again. --- Big time, for the whole world.

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HI JHK,

Quote from Post 5:

I wanted to clarify with you about James in the Bible. The reason is because I have a theory that perhaps James was actually one person but mentioned in different ways during his life. For example, 1. James brother of John, sons of thunder, because they were impulsive, 2. James brother of Judas and half brother to Jesus, 3. James the Young at the time of crucifixion, 4. James the Apostle A.D. who helped establish laws which are very similar to Islam.

Yes, I had seen your post on the other topic but I thought I would answer it here anyway. Sorry to be slow about responding.

It is easy to identify the three here that are named James. The first in Matthew 4:

21 Going on from there, He saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets. He called them,

22 and immediately they left the boat and their father, and followed Him.

The next is James the son of Alphaeus, (James the less), another Apostle named in Matthew 10:

2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;

--- And mentioned again with them in the upper room in Acts 1:

13 And when they had entered, they went up into the upper room where they were staying: Peter, James, John, and Andrew; Philip and Thomas; Bartholomew and Matthew; James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot;

And the third one, James, the half brother of Jesus, the son of Joseph and Mary, Matthew 13:

54 When He had come to His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished and said, “Where did this Man get this wisdom and these mighty works?

55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas?

56 And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?”

57 So they were offended at Him.

James was a fairly common name but these are the three of Interest. Acts 12:

1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched out his hand to harass some from the church.

2 Then he killed James the brother of John with the sword.

3 And because he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to seize Peter also. Now it was during the Days of Unleavened Bread.

4 So when he had arrested him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four squads of soldiers to keep him, intending to bring him before the people after Passover.

You have to read the events from 4-19 --- An angel led Peter out of the prison and he went to the house of Mark’s mother, where they were all praying, and he spoke to them, but didn’t stay because they would try to find him among his friends.

16 Now Peter continued knocking; and when they opened the door and saw him, they were astonished.

17 But motioning to them with his hand to keep silent, he declared to them how the Lord had brought him out of the prison. And he said, “Go, tell these things to James and to the brethren.” And he departed and went to another place.

Notice: --- Peter said, “Go to James and the brethren,” --- meaning the Church body. --- This was about 11 years after the ascension, --- so this indicates that this James, the Lord’s brother, had become the Leader and Pastor of the Church in Jerusalem. --- and this is the James that officiated over the meeting in Acts 15, where they established some rules for Gentile believers.

Would you like to discuss some of the similar laws?

Placid

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Yes please if you don't mind. So the three James' were definitely not the same as verified by different fathers. Thanks for this clarification. The reason why I was interested was because my understanding was that the third James, was not a heavily involved follower until A.D. If you could throw in your views about references to the Injil in the Quran, I would also be very interested.

Inshallah Isa will be with Us soon.

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Hi JHK,

Quote: my understanding was that the third James, was not a heavily involved follower until A.D. If you could throw in your views about references to the Injil in the Quran, I would also be very interested.

--- Yes, James, the half brother of Jesus did not necessarily profess faith in Jesus till after His resurrection, where Jesus made a special appearance to him, as recorded in 1 Corinthians 15:

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

5 and that He was seen by Cephas (Peter), then by the other apostles.

6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.

7 AFTER THAT HE WAS SEEN BY JAMES, then by all the apostles.

8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

--- The word Gospel and Injil are used interchangeably by the translators of the Quran, --- as in this verse in Surah 3:

48 "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel.”

--- In the ten in Quranbrowser.com, --- 7 use Gospel, --- 1 uses Injeel, --- 1 uses Injeel (Gospel), --- and 1 uses Evangel, --- (which also means ‘good news.’)

There is no indication that the Injil was ever a ‘book.’

--- In the verse above, ---He (God) will teach Him (Jesus) the Book (the OT) and Wisdom (Spiritual understanding) --- The Law (the Torah) and the Gospel (Good News).

God said in the New Covenant, “I will write My law in their minds and put them in their hearts.” --- (That means 'in their memory.')

---So God gave the wisdom of the Torah and Gospel (Injil) through His intellect. --- And the Gospel was the Message of the ‘good news’ of salvation, to those who believe and follow Jesus, --- as in these verses in Surah 5:

46 And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God.

47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

47 Shakir: And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors

So God gave the Message of the Gospel through His intellect, and He taught it to the disciples.

And this is the promise that Jesus gave to true believers in John 5:

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him (God) who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”

--- This is why believing Christians have the assurance of eternal life.

And the Quran verifies this in Surah 3:

55 Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I willjudge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

Placid

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I am quite sure you are well versed in all the perspectives, and you know the similarities, so we should just pray in the ways we know best, in the interest of those we care about, for the best possible outcome for all of us.

After all its supposed to be good news, so it must mean that we have already been blessed. So Good News to You, and Good News to You, and Good News to You.

Maybe Injil is a Believer. Just like they say Quran is a Friend.

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Although I'm JHK is well meaning, since the poster is a Shia Muslim, it should be stated to both he and JHK that the traditions of Ahlul Bayt, peace and blessings upon them, state that Prophet Jesus (pbuh) placed in his stead as the leader of the Ummah the one St. Simon Peter (as) who was to Jesus what Ali (as) was to Muhammad ibn Abdullah (pbuh). There is a slightly understandable yet unfair tendency on these boards by those unfamiliar with the Shi'ite hadiths on this subject to say James the Just (as) was the Imam after Jesus because he is said to have headed the Jerusalem church after Jesus' ascension and some Christian scriptures call him a "brother" of Jesus in a way some interpret to mean a half brother. Meanwhile, Peter (as) is considered by Christian tradition to have founded the church of Rome which is somewhat infamous with the Muslims for the teachings on Jesus it would later spread that ran contrary to the Christology of the revealed Quran and hadith of Ahlul Bayt. Therefore, saying James (as) was the Imam of the whole church is a way of attacking the form of Christianity that was edited to suit more Gentile interests and later became the dominant form of Christianity that Muhammad's own theology and recounting of history contradicted in certain important way by claiming that the tradition by which the Roman church lays claim to papal authority to spread these ideas that are contrary to Islam (though we Shia Muslims still share much in common with the Roman Catholics and Orthodox despite having very crucial differences too) is not legitimate. But the traditions of Ahlul Bayt are clear that Jesus' best and leading disciple was St. Simon Peter and was faithful and true. Meanwhile there is no tradition to say that James was the one in charge, at least not that I have ever seen.

It is reported that Qays, the servant of ‘Alí ibn Abí Tàlib (‘a) said, “Once when ‘Alí, the Commander of the Faithful, was near the mountain at Siffín, the time for the evening prayers came. So, he went farther away and called for the prayers. When he finished the call to prayer, a man appeared from near the mountain with grey hair and beard, and a bright white face. He said, ‘Peace be with you, O Commander of the Faithful, and mercy and blessings from Allah! Welcome to the successor of the last of the prophets, leader of the ones with bright, brilliant faces, magnanimous and protected, excellent and one who has the reward of the truthful, master of all the successors!’

So, the Commander of the Faithful said, ‘And peace be with you. How are you?’

He replied, ‘I am well, waiting for the holy spirit. I do not know of any name that is greater in the estimation of Allah, His Name is Mighy and Magnificent, at the time of an ordeal than yours, nor of any who has earned more rewards than you, nor of anyone who has an eleveated place higher than yours. Put up with all that your face, O my brother, until you meet the beloved. Verily, I have witnessed whatever happened to our companions in the past at the hands of the children of Israel. They cut them apart with the saw and carried them over the bier.’ And then pointing towards the people of Syria, he said, ‘And if these poor, ugly faces knew what chastisement and exemplary punishment awaited them for fighting against you, they would withdraw.; And then pointing to the people of Iraq, he said, ‘And if these bright faces knew that award awaited them for having obeyed you, they would love to be cut by scissors. And peace and His mercy and blessings be with you.’ Then he disappeared. At that time, Ammàr ibn Yàsir, ‘Abdul Haytham ibn al-Tíhan, Abu Ayyub al-Ansàrí, ‘Ubaydah ibn al-Sàmit, Khuzayma ibn Thàbit and Hàshim al-Marqal, among a group of his followers, having heard what the man had said, stood up and said, ‘O Commander of the Faithful! Who was that man?’ The Commander of the Faithful said, ‘He is Simon, the successor of Jesus (‘a). Allah sent him to me to give me solace for this confrontation with His enemies.’ They said, ‘May our parents be your ransom! By Allah! We will help you the way we helped the Apostle of Allah (‘s), and none from the Muhàjirín nor Ansàr shall desert you, except the unfortunate one.’ Then the Commander of the Faithful said some kind words to them.” --- (Amàlí, 1, 104-106, 5)

Ibn ‘Abbàssaid, “When Allah, the Blessed and Exalted, sent the verse, ‘…And fullfill My covenant, so I will fullfill your covenant.’ (2, 40) the Apostle of Allah said, ‘By Allah, Adam made a covenant with his people concerning his son, Seth and went out from this world, but his people did not fulfill it. Noah made a covenant with his people concerning his executor, Sàm and went out from this world, but his people did not fulfill it. Abraham made a covenant with his people concerning his executor, Ismà‘íl and went out from this world, but his people did not fulfill it.

Moses made a covenant with his people concerning his executor, Yusha‘ ibn Nun and went out from this world, but his people did not fulfill it. Jesus the son of Mary made a covenant with his people concerning his executor Simon ibn Hamun al-Safà and was raised to heaven, but his people did not fulfill it.

Also I will separate from you soon and will leave you. I have made a covenant with my community concerning ‘Alí ibn Abu Tàlib, but they will continue with the rites of the previous communities in opposing my executor and disobeying him….’” --- (Ma‘àní al-Akhbàr, 373)

The name "Peter" or "Cephas" in Greek is a nickname given to Simon (as) by Jesus Christ in the Holy Bible that means "rock" since Jesus is said to have considered Simon his rock on which the church of God would be built (this tradition is related in the Gospel of Matthew). I hope that helps. Although the Gospel verse in question calls Simon the "son of Jonah" not "son of Hamun" like in one tradition above, all the Shia traditions I have seen on the subject of Jesus' Imam after him mention one "Simon" who is also sometimes called "al-Safa" or "the Pure."

“But what about you?” he (Jesus) asked. “Who do you say I am?”

Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah. -- (The Gospel of Matthew 16:15-20)

There is another Biblical tradition that Jesus (pbuh) had another loyal and righteous disciple named Simon the Zealot, but he is differentiated from the Simon who was given the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven and christened as "the Rock" or Peter/Cephas and this was a prominent tradition around the Christian world at the time of Ahlul Bayt that if anyone were to mention a Simon as being the successor of Jesus it was understood as the one called Peter and not the one called the Zealot, of whom there is no such tradition among the Christians of having received such a high station as Simon Peter is said to have been given or so close to it as opposed to some other disciples like James the Just or Mary Magdalene, God's blessings upon the both of them.

I hope this information was of use. Salam alaykum. ^_^

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Peter denied Jesus Three Times, but Peter is still the Rock that Jerusalem will be built upon. So those who occupy or defile the rock today, are not necessarily the Righteous Ones as you confirm.

Muhammad said go the way of Ali, Just like Jesus said go the way of James. There are many references of people going to James, but very little about going to Peter.

The non-canonical Gospel of Thomas confirms that James was an important leader, stating, "The disciples said to Jesus: We know that you will depart from us; who is it who will lead us?" Jesus said to them, "Wherever you have come from, go to James the Just, for whom heaven and earth came to be."[47][48]

Peter is to Abu Bakr, as James is to Ali Ibn Abu Talib.

Both Peter and James are necessary. As are both Abu Bakr and Ali.

Peter is the Rock on which I Israel is built upon, and it is the way of James in which it will occur.

Abu Bakr is the Rock on which Ismael is built upon, and it is the way of Ali in which it will occur.

Ali will not deny that Peter is the Rock, just as Ali will not deny that Abu Bakr is the Rock.

Just as we should not deny that we are Brothers, just as Peter, Abu Bakr, Ali, and James are Brothers.

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^ ^ ^

JHK, you are merely speculating without any appeal to Islamic tradition. True, as I said, there are Christian traditions that exalt the station of James the Just and Mary Magdalene, but the point is which ones match up to the knowledge related to us by Ahlul Bayt. According to Shi'ite tradition, Simon al-Safa (as) was the successor of Jesus Christ (pbuh) and is to him what Ali (as) was to Muhammad (pbuh). This is a repeated Shi'ite tradition. There is no mention in any Shi'ite tradition from Ahlul Bayt mentioning anyone else as "Jesus' Ali" but Simon al-Safa. And around the time Ahlul Bayt lived, most Christians in the world, including many of those groups which were considered heretical by the predecessors of what Christianity now calls itself the orthodoxy, understood that Jesus' greatest successor was Simon Peter. This doesn't mean that James the Just (as) does not hold a high station, he most certainly did, but he wasn't on the same level as Peter. If anyone heard someone say Jesus' Imam was a one called Simon in the Christian world at the time of Ahlul Bayt, they would have understood to be in reference to the one called Peter or "The Rock," which was the nickname he was given because he was named the one who would be the Christ in place of Jesus (as) when he was gone and Muslims who had engaged in conversations with Christians they came in contact with would know this Christian tradition fairly well.

You may quote the Gospel of Thomas all you like, but the point is that the Islamic traditions on who Jesus put in charge of the Ummah when he left matches up to the New Testament, which is roughly as old as the Gospel of Thomas supposedly is. I say supposedly because the dating of the Gospel of Thomas is a matter of debate while we at least can be certain that the books of the New Testament existed in some shape or form by the early 2nd century. The Gospel of Thomas has been theorized to be just as old or younger. But the age and the differences between the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Matthew which I quoted is not the point here. The point is that the written Islamic traditions and the age old Christian tradition of Jesus having a disciple named Simon whom he called his "rock" and put him in charge of his church and bringing salvation to mankind in his stead match up. The Gospel of Matthew and the Shi'ite hadith are in agreement on this regard, whereas the Gospel of Thomas, as intriguing and monumental of a work as it is, is not in agreement with our traditions, the traditions of Ahlul Bayt.

If you want to believe that James the Just (as) was the one Jesus (pbuh) placed in charge instead of Peter, I cannot stop you, but I must say that you will not find any evidence in the Islamic traditions to corroborate this and you are only relying on apocryphal works whose exact dates and authorship are debatable or unknown at the present time. Sure, the Gospel of Matthew is a work that is also written anonymously and the exact date of its authorship is not known, but we still know the rough time frame in which it was written down and distributed in some form and at least when it comes to the subject of the succession of Jesus' leadership of the Ummah, of the church, it is in agreement with the Shi'ite traditions of Ahlul Bayt that Jesus' successor was Simon (as) whereas the Gospel of Thomas, unfortunately for it, does not. I'm not arguing about the authenticity of the Gospel of Matthew over the Gospel of Thomas as a whole, rather I'm simply arguing that the Christian tradition of Simon Peter being named the successor, which is a very old one, that is related in the Gospel of Matthew is supported by Islamic narrations attributed to Ahlul Bayt while other Christian traditions that appear to suggest James the Just or some other figures are not backed up by any hadith from Muhammad or his holy household.

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Well the way I have always determined authenticity is to think about the meaning in the Hadith, that's why I read Imam Ali's hadith and not necessarily Abu Bakrs for example.

So when I read about Christian Theology, I don't even pay attention to where it came from. I didn't even care that it came from the Gospel of Thomas at the time, when I copy pasted the quote, although you spend a lot of time trying to defend your source against it.

I would argue that by being restrictive and narrow about sources, causes us to not understand things. For example, just living in one country makes us biased towards just one country.

I could argue that you merely appeal to Islamic Tradition, whatever that means, when the Quran argues against those who rely on tradition.

What it comes down to is your opinion against my opinion. My opinion is that your writing is like a rock, although Allah in the end knows best. Jesus said to go the way of the Lost Tribes, a rock does not get lost, and The Quran said to read the Injil, so the Injil has to exist in order to read it, and Allah has His ways, despite our traditions.

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^ ^ ^

But the point still stands that the notion that Simon Peter was not Jesus' successor doesn't have any real basis in Islamic thought. If you are saying I should not rely on these hadith which explicitly say through chains of supposedly reliable narrators that Simon al-Safa (as) whom we can safely say is the same Simon that Christian tradition calls "Peter" is the successor to Jesus Christ (pbuh) then on what should I rely then? If the truth is that it was not Simon al-Safa/Simon Peter, then where is the proof that it isn't? True, the Gospel of Thomas appears to imply otherwise, but on what basis should I trust the Gospel of Thomas in this regard anymore than the Gospel of Matthew or the hadith ascribed to our most perfect and infallible Imams through our honorable scholars? Do you know some stronger chain which we can examine that proves the greater authenticity of this claim that James the Just (as) was the one chosen and not Peter? Do you have some sort of physical evidence to the fact?

The issue is we have two separate assertions each ascribing a certain honor to one of two men that the other cannot have and is subordinate to. Was it James who was the Supreme Head of the Church after Jesus left? Or was it Peter? The evidence, from the Shi'ite Islamic perspective favors the latter that Jesus christened a loyal disciple named Simon as his successor in the same manner as Muhammad did Ali. Not James, Simon. And this same Simon can be and has been associated with the one called "Peter/Cephas" in the Christian tradition, which is a logical association. If you are submitting that I should follow this notion that James is the supreme head of the church, then on what basis should I trust this? What reasoning is there for following this tradition as though it were true? The tradition of Peter's superiority can be found to have existed just as early as the Gospel of Thomas may have been written and the only hadith attributed to Ahlul Bayt agree with this tradition and confirm to be true from the mouths of the infallibles.

Do you have some other hadith that is much more authentic that says otherwise? Do you have some sort of strong evidence to suggest that a source like the Gospel of Thomas or something that says something to an almost equal effect of what it is implying which is more trustworthy in this regard, that is the subject of which disciple of Jesus the honorable prophet put in charge of the Ummah. If the reasoning for us Muslims is that we should only follow as truth from Christian tradition what has been confirmed to be true by those with the greatest insight into the past events, in this case Ahlul Bayt, then by this reasoning the tradition of Simon Peter (as) being named the head of the Ummah after Jesus is the true tradition.

If you are going to keep this opinion that James the Just (as) is the one who was named supreme head of the church, at least submit that you have nothing that can be attributed to Muhammad (pbuh) or his progeny that says anything to this effect or anything from Christian tradition that is conclusive in proving that it was James and not Peter. And if you admit this, I'm afraid, and I say this with all due respect, that you are keeping to an opinion that doesn't have any conclusive evidence from the perspective of Shi'ite Islamic scholarship.

I'm not saying people are not entitled to disagree with my opinion, I'm only saying that since OP is Shia, he should know that the honorable scholars of the Twelver Shia Imamia have historically and for good reason agreed with the tradition that Jesus had a beloved disciple named Simon al-Safa whom he gave authority over the church after him. And it has also been the opinion that this same Simon is the Simon mentioned in the New Testament and other Christian writings outside the New Testament as the one whom Jesus gave the rights of supreme leadership to and the name "Peter" or "Cephas" meaning "rock" as a symbol of his being the foundation upon which the church of Christ would be built.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23

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Yes, I do, Ali spoke peculiarly formally when addressing Peter as the rock of Israel. But Ali does not recommend this among friends, or 'known' people.

Given that there were Twelve Apostles all at one time, we can assume credit can go to all Twelve Apostles, and therefore that it could be safer to consider them all equal. Whereas you are trying to formalize it as Peter. My fitra tells me otherwise so I state it.

Allah set life in this world as a Test for Man. And Allah is not one-eyed.

So I added my views, to balance the information in this thread.

Why don't you explain your background and why you are so insistent. Do you work for some organization that is dependent on Peter being 'the guy'?

I'm not saying that anybody should be supreme head of anything. Allah is Supreme Head.

I just do what I think He wants me to do. Its called fitra, and it came from Allah.

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^Thank you all especially for your effort on research - I really appreciate it, it has helped.

From wikipedia: (just incase it interests anyone)

Muslims accept Jesus as a prophet of Islam. The Qur'an also speaks of Jesus's disciples but does not mention their names, instead referring to them as "helpers to the prophet of God".[93] Muslim exegesis and Qur'an commentary, however, names them and includes Peter amongst the disciples.[1] An old tradition, which involves the legend of Habib the Carpenter, mentions that Peter was one of the three disciples sent to Antioch to preach to the people there.[94]

Shia Muslims see a parallel in the figure of Peter to Ali at Muhammad's time. They look upon Ali as being the vicegerent, with Muhammad being the prophet; likewise, they see Peter as the vicegerent, behind Jesus the prophet and Masih. Peter's role as the first proper leader of the church is also seen by Shia's to be a parallel to their belief in Ali as the first caliph after Muhammad.[95]

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If you go the way of Peter, you end up in uk, or rome, or venice, or zionland.

James went Pakistan and Afghanistan and Iran and China.

So ok, let's start building our foundation on Peter then.

But we first have to get rid of the junk that sits on it.

Then we can stand on it.

And after that we can send Peter the way James went.

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Hi,

As I said in Post 2, the 11 Apostles were the ones who carried the Gospel to other areas and other countries. --- As well as being taught by Jesus, they were filled with the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost.

It names the 11 Apostles in Acts 1:13, and in 14, it names Jesus’ mother Mary, and mentions His brothers, along with other women who were waiting for the promise of the Holy Spirit.

--- So Peter was named in 13 with the Apostles, but he was just one of the 11. --- And James, the brother of Jesus in 14, would be there among His brothers.

--- This promised coming of the Holy Spirit that empowered them is recorded in Acts 2:

1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.

3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.

6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.

7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans?

8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?

9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,

10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,

11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.”

12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?”

Peter was the one who denied that he was a disciple of Jesus in the courtyard in John 18:17, --- but now he is ‘filled with the Holy Spirit’ and speaks to the crowd, as the spokesman for the 11 Apostles, in Acts 2:

14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.

15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.

16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,

That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;

Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,

Your young men shall see visions,

Your old men shall dream dreams.

18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants

I will pour out My Spirit in those days;

And they shall prophesy.

Peter was the prominent speaker for the 11, and he also quoted OT prophecy.

--- While they were all witnesses, --- the 11 Apostles were all commissioned to carry the Gospel to other areas and other countries.

(More later)

Placid

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Muhammad, who says he is closest to Jesus, said:


  1. Jurisprudents are the trustees of the Prophets (trust worthy and dependable representatives) till such time they have not entered the world (affairs)? one of those present asked, 'what is their entry into the world (affairs)? The Prophet said in response to him, 'Following the king, so when they do that beware of them about your religion (guard your religion from them). (KANZAL AMAL AI Hadith 28952, USULE KAFI, VOL, P 46)

So in guarding religion from, for example, obama the world king, surely people will be gathered together against it. Currently shiachat has 1 new user every 10 minutes, for example. Divided opinions will ruin us, so we need to struggle to agree on the right path together, based on what we know as being right and wrong.

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I have a fitra that for every person after Jesus, there is one after Muhammad. There are parallels between Right and wrong, that if we can match correctly, it will improve our faith. In going about this, we will effectively also be achieving Unity, in addition to growing Brothers & Sisters, who appear to be landing on shiachat at about 1 new user every ten minutes. The advent of the Yamani states that no weapons should be bought or sold, probably because it could only contribute to fitna. The liver eaters are any who sell religion for a price, and sell out each other. We are all liver eaters in many ways, (As Jesus so famously mentioned), and God knows, so we should Pledge Our Allegiance to His Flag, and stand up to it.

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Protestants will claim none are.

They don't believe in Apostolic Succession as we do.

St Peter is the leader Jesus chose to build the church upon (the rock).

Not James, Paul, Or anyone else.

It's abundantly clear from scripture and tradition.

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Quote from Post 22:

Protestants will claim none are.

They don’t believe in Apostolic Succession as we do.

St Peter is the leader Jesus chose to build the Church upon (the rock)

Not James, Paul, or anyone else. --- End of quote.

 

Response: --- The Scripture says in Matthew 16:

13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”

14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

 

21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.

22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”

23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

 

Just think about this for a minute. --- Any of the disciples would have said the same, that Jesus was the Christ, --- but Peter was their spokesman, and was the first to speak.

--- Then Jesus said, ‘You didn’t say that as a result of hearing it from men, but from My Father who is in heaven.’

 

It was on the ‘Testimony’ that Jesus was the Christ, that the Church was built.

--- Notice that it was after Jesus heard this confession from them, that He taught them the prophecy that He would go up to Jerusalem, and be killed and rise the third day. --- If they believed He was the Christ, then they would have to learn the rest of the Prophecy concerning Him.

--- Perhaps since Peter had been commended for confessing what God had revealed to him, --- it says in 22,  Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”

 

And what did Jesus say?

23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

 

So was Peter speaking from God this time, when Jesus rebuked him, or was it a spirit of Satan that spoke through him?

--- Peter was an impulsive man who was quick to speak but full of pride until he was humbled.

It was Peter that denied three times that he knew Jesus, at the trial of Jesus.

--- The third time that the rooster crowed, this happened in Matthew 26:

74 Then he began to curse and swear, saying, “I do not know the Man!”

Immediately a rooster crowed.

 75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus who had said to him, “Before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.” So he went out and wept bitterly.

 

--- Does this sound like the Rock on which the Church was built? --- Peter was just a natural man until he was humbled by his own insecurity, as he was there.

(I can imagine that when Peter heard the rooster crow the third time he remembered, --- and the natural reaction would be to turn and look at Jesus, --- and at that time, Jesus would have been looking at him. --- ‘So he went out and wept bitterly’ --- I believe this was when Peter was converted, and on the Day of Pentecost, when he and the others were filled with the Holy Spirit, in Acts 2, he stood up with the others and spoke to the multitude. He was no longer afraid, but he preached to them

 

If you look in Scripture you will find no Succession of Apostles. Peter and Mark went to Rome and Peter died in Rome.

When the Roman Catholic Church was formed in the 300’s and they appointed a Pope they tried to backdate Church leaders back to Peter in Rome, to say that he was the first Pope in Rome, --- but there was no connection.

--- So who was the Church built on? --- It says in Ephesians 2:

19 --- You are members of the household of God,

20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,

--- The Church was built on Jesus Christ, and the “Testimony of those who followed Him.”

 

Placid

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Response: --- The Scripture says in Matthew 16:

13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”

14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

 

21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.

22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”

23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

 

Just think about this for a minute. --- Any of the disciples would have said the same, that Jesus was the Christ, --- but Peter was their spokesman, and was the first to speak.

--- Then Jesus said, ‘You didn’t say that as a result of hearing it from men, but from My Father who is in heaven.’

 

It was on the ‘Testimony’ that Jesus was the Christ, that the Church was built.

 

--- Notice that it was after Jesus heard this confession from them, that He taught them the prophecy that He would go up to Jerusalem, and be killed and rise the third day. --- If they believed He was the Christ, then they would have to learn the rest of the Prophecy concerning Him.

--- Perhaps since Peter had been commended for confessing what God had revealed to him, --- it says in 22,  Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”

 

And what did Jesus say?

23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

 

So was Peter speaking from God this time, when Jesus rebuked him, or was it a spirit of Satan that spoke through him?

--- Peter was an impulsive man who was quick to speak but full of pride until he was humbled.

It was Peter that denied three times that he knew Jesus, at the trial of Jesus.

--- The third time that the rooster crowed, this happened in Matthew 26:

74 Then he began to curse and swear, saying, “I do not know the Man!”

Immediately a rooster crowed.

 75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus who had said to him, “Before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.” So he went out and wept bitterly.

 

--- Does this sound like the Rock on which the Church was built? --- Peter was just a natural man until he was humbled by his own insecurity, as he was there.

(I can imagine that when Peter heard the rooster crow the third time he remembered, --- and the natural reaction would be to turn and look at Jesus, --- and at that time, Jesus would have been looking at him. --- ‘So he went out and wept bitterly’ --- I believe this was when Peter was converted, and on the Day of Pentecost, when he and the others were filled with the Holy Spirit, in Acts 2, he stood up with the others and spoke to the multitude. He was no longer afraid, but he preached to them

 

If you look in Scripture you will find no Succession of Apostles. Peter and Mark went to Rome and Peter died in Rome.

When the Roman Catholic Church was formed in the 300’s and they appointed a Pope they tried to backdate Church leaders back to Peter in Rome, to say that he was the first Pope in Rome, --- but there was no connection.

--- So who was the Church built on? --- It says in Ephesians 2:

19 --- You are members of the household of God,

20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,

--- The Church was built on Jesus Christ, and the “Testimony of those who followed Him.”

 

Placid

 

It's plainly clear Jesus chose St Peter as his successor to lead the Church on Earth:

 

*  In Matthew 16:18, we see St Peter alone is the Rock upon which Jesus builds his Church..

* In Matthew 16:19, we see St Peter alone is given the keys to the kingdom of Heaven.

* Again in Matthew 16:19, we see St Peter is individually given the power to bind and loose.

* Throughout the Bible, St Peter’s name appears first in all lists of the Apostles.

* In Matthew 16:18 and John 1:42, we see St Peter alone receives a new name solemnly conferred..

* In John 21:15-17, St Peter is regarded by Jesus as the Chief Shepherd after himself, singularly by name, and over the universal church.

* In Luke 22:32 St Peter alone among the Apostles is mentioned by name as having been prayed for by Jesus Christ in order that his faith may not fail.

* In the Same verse, St Peter alone among the Apostles is exhorted by Jesus to “strengthen your brethren”..

* In Matthew 16:16 St Peter is the first to confess Christ’s Messiahship and divinity.

* In Matthew 16:17, St Peter alone is told that he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation..

 

The Church didn't start in 300AD, it started in 33AD; we have the lineage, the pedigree, and the succession to prove it.

Yours started in the 1500s, you have no pedigree, succession or lineage, nor any Authority.

 

and you mentioned ACTS 15 somewhere, this was a discussion about Circumcision.

It was St Peter alone who got up and made the decision. St James just confirmed it and agreed.

St Peter stands and says we are no longer going to practice Circumcision, not James.

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Whoa yeah. I wanna see the 33AD stuff, so does every Muslim on this site. Don't worry about who's bound by the 1500's. That's only being stereotypical.

Just assure me you're not a Javi.

 

Jesus commissioned all His Disciples, it's cool we can have favorites unless you uncovered some reason why the rest of the Disciples were useless.

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Meaning where does that leave the rest of the Apostles and their churches? Heresy?

 

Son I think I know what you mean so I'll try to respond with my understanding of your question/query.

We believe Jesus established the Church (in his lifetime) with St Peter as the head of the Disciples. 

After Jesus' death St Peter became our First Pope. As for the other Apostles they followed suit.

That is, they went out spreading the message of Jesus Christ, some became Bishops and led Parishes.

 

They did not establish separate Churches. There was only one Church.

Some Protestants like to claim that the Churches of Antioch, Alexandria, and others mentioned are/were separate Churches but in fact they were what we call now Diocese. There was only ONE church for 1000 years or so.

 

Or do you mean what of the 'other' churches as in non-Catholic ones like Protestant and Orthodox?

We do not believe they are heretical in and of themselves. The JW and Mormons are definitely heretical (but they do not count to me as Christians anyway).

We believe the Orthodox and Catholic are separate brethren and the Protestants, well, lost is a good word.

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(Thanks Shiachat, it is good to be back.)

 

It is right to say that Peter was the leader of the Apostles because he was recognized as their leader, and his name Peter meant ‘rock,’ --- and the name Cephas meant ‘stone’ or ‘rock,’ --- and after his failings, in denying Jesus and showing weakness, he eventually became a Rock when he was filled with the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2.

--- However, all of the Apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit and within a short time went out from the Church in Jerusalem to different countries. --- Local Churches were started in the cities and after AD 70 when the Romans destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem, and the Christians had been dispersed from there, --- the local Churches were the religious centers in the Cities. --- This was the change from the ‘central Worship Center’ in Jerusalem that had become corrupt under the leadership of the Pharisees, to Local Churches that were led by Christians.

 

On the Day of Pentecost there were Jews there for the celebration from many countries, as it says in Acts 2:

5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.

And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.

Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans?

And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?

Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,

10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,

11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.”

12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?”

 

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.” --- So Peter was the spokesman to these Jews from all of these countries, and that first day, 3000 were converted. --- Within a week or two they would return to their own countries and carry the Gospel Message with them. --- This fulfilled the Prophecy that the Gospel would be given ‘to the Jew first.’

This was the first spreading of the Gospel through the Jews themselves, first the Apostles and the devout Jews who heard them on the Day of Pentecost.

 

Peter and John remained in the Church in Jerusalem for a time, but would travel out from there. --- There is evidence that Peter traveled with his wife to some of the countries that were represented on the Day of Pentecost, and the proof is that Peter wrote his first letter to them, --- in 1 Peter 1:

1  Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

--- (And he spoke to them as believers in this circuit letter that would be passed around to the Churches):

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

--- Also, there was the same message to believers in 2 Peter 1:

1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and Apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

 

Peter and Mark left Jerusalem and went to Rome to minister there, and were later joined by Paul and Luke, --- where Mark and Luke wrote their Gospel accounts.

There was not a Central Church till in the early 300’s when the Roman Catholic Church was formed under the Roman Government and the Christian leaders who were less spiritual and more political, --- with the promise that Rome would work with them rather than against them. --- The word 'Catholic' meant 'Universal' so they became the dominant Church, which eventually again became corrupted. --- (However, there have been many reforms in that Church, so it has some genuine people today.)     

 

--- But in the 300's would be the first time a Pope would be named, --- and the rest is Catholic doctrine and tradition, is it not?

 

Placid

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(Thanks Shiachat, it is good to be back.)

 

It is right to say that Peter was the leader of the Apostles because he was recognized as their leader, and his name Peter meant ‘rock,’ --- and the name Cephas meant ‘stone’ or ‘rock,’ --- and after his failings, in denying Jesus and showing weakness, he eventually became a Rock when he was filled with the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2.

--- However, all of the Apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit and within a short time went out from the Church in Jerusalem to different countries. --- Local Churches were started in the cities and after AD 70 when the Romans destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem, and the Christians had been dispersed from there, --- the local Churches were the religious centers in the Cities. --- This was the change from the ‘central Worship Center’ in Jerusalem that had become corrupt under the leadership of the Pharisees, to Local Churches that were led by Christians.

 

On the Day of Pentecost there were Jews there for the celebration from many countries, as it says in Acts 2:

5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.

And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.

Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans?

And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?

Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,

10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,

11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.”

12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?”

 

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.” --- So Peter was the spokesman to these Jews from all of these countries, and that first day, 3000 were converted. --- Within a week or two they would return to their own countries and carry the Gospel Message with them. --- This fulfilled the Prophecy that the Gospel would be given ‘to the Jew first.’

This was the first spreading of the Gospel through the Jews themselves, first the Apostles and the devout Jews who heard them on the Day of Pentecost.

 

Peter and John remained in the Church in Jerusalem for a time, but would travel out from there. --- There is evidence that Peter traveled with his wife to some of the countries that were represented on the Day of Pentecost, and the proof is that Peter wrote his first letter to them, --- in 1 Peter 1:

1  Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

--- (And he spoke to them as believers in this circuit letter that would be passed around to the Churches):

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

--- Also, there was the same message to believers in 2 Peter 1:

1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and Apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

 

Peter and Mark left Jerusalem and went to Rome to minister there, and were later joined by Paul and Luke, --- where Mark and Luke wrote their Gospel accounts.

There was not a Central Church till in the early 300’s when the Roman Catholic Church was formed under the Roman Government and the Christian leaders who were less spiritual and more political, --- with the promise that Rome would work with them rather than against them. --- The word 'Catholic' meant 'Universal' so they became the dominant Church, which eventually again became corrupted. --- (However, there have been many reforms in that Church, so it has some genuine people today.)     

 

--- But in the 300's would be the first time a Pope would be named, --- and the rest is Catholic doctrine and tradition, is it not?

 

Placid

 

Hi Placid,

I have to disagree, because as you see when you read the Acts of the Apostle's, everything, all the disciples, always came to Peter for final decisions and approvals.  It is to Peter, whom Paul brought the tithes which he had collected in the areas of his own teaching.  The 'church' was always one, and central, with Peter as its head.  The disciples always went out from, and returned to, that one 'church' and main center in doing their teaching.  If I am correct in my thinking, it was always Peter who sent the Apostle's out to do their teaching, and who decided to where they would go.

Hope you are doing well,

CLynn

Edited by CLynn

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Hi Clynn,

 

I am fine thank you, and how are you doing?

 

There is mention of Peter saying this after the Apostle James was killed In Acts 12:   

1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched out his hand to harass some from the church.

Then he killed James the brother of John with the sword.

And because he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to seize Peter also.

 

They put Peter in prison and God sent an angel to bring him out of the prison, so he went first to the house of John Mark and when they opened the door to him:

17 he declared to them how the Lord had brought him out of the prison. And he said, “Go, tell these things to James and to the brethren.” And he departed and went to another place.

 

--- (James, the brother of Jesus, was the Pastor and Leader of the Jerusalem Church.)

--- Can you give your references in Acts concerning Peter being the leader?

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Hi Clynn,

 

I am fine thank you, and how are you doing?

 

There is mention of Peter saying this after the Apostle James was killed In Acts 12:   

1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched out his hand to harass some from the church.

Then he killed James the brother of John with the sword.

And because he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to seize Peter also.

 

They put Peter in prison and God sent an angel to bring him out of the prison, so he went first to the house of John Mark and when they opened the door to him:

17 he declared to them how the Lord had brought him out of the prison. And he said, “Go, tell these things to James and to the brethren.” And he departed and went to another place.

 

--- (James, the brother of Jesus, was the Pastor and Leader of the Jerusalem Church.)

--- Can you give your references in Acts concerning Peter being the leader?

 

Hello Placid,

I have to confess my apparent mistake.  I apparently spoke with too much haste.  

Paul does indeed seem to have sought ought consultation with James.

Upon looking through the book of Acts today I see from Acts 15 and 21 that it is James who seems to speak as the leader of the church.

 

I must admit I have begun on more than one occasion to read through the book of Acts and have never completed it fully.  I have read many parts.  What I was remembering must come from a movie I watched, called Peter and Paul.   All things concerning the original church seem to point towards these two as the leaders.  Now I am wondering why that is.  I will have to find a way to spend more time on this, increasing my knowledge.

Thanks Placid.

 

Regarding my reference to tithes...

I used the word tithes because it was the only word on the top of my mind when I wrote.  The proper reference would be collections.  I get this from the following passages.

Romans 15:25-

2 Corinthians 8

 

I have a question for you though.  Your post confuses me.

If James was killed as it says in Acts 12:2,

then how is it that Peter says to, 'go and tell what has happened to me, to James',

in verse 17?

 

Blessings to you,

CLynn

Edited by CLynn

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