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Aabiss_Shakari

Why Sunni Too Bad In Proving Khilafah Of Abubakr?

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Tell me, why should I go to any anti-shia sites? Are you saying I should hang out with my enemies?

Then please stop accusing shias on this forum coz you only know half the truth.

Iblis could be interceded by Adam, because Adam knows all the Names, and Iblis was Adam's avowed enemy. Do you say this is not possible?

I didn't know that Iblees could also be interceeded. Thanks. Now, if Iblees can be interceeded then anyone and everyone will be interceeded and Hell will be empty for sure. Thanks for opening my eyes.

Its possible we know what some of Muhammad's companions did, such as Abu Bakr, Uthman, Umar, we all know. But it does not take precedence over Tawhid, Ittihad, or Seratel Mostagim. They are not here today, and it definitely is not all the companions, so it definitely could not be all born sunni muslims. We don't know all that is happening in Islam today, such as in evin prison, or refugee camps, or arabian prisons, but Inshallah Allah is Most Judicial.

Don't know what your point here is. But to mention what is written in history is no crime.

Allah is not one-eyed, and neither should we be one-eyed. Reality includes Torah, Injil, Sunni Hadith, Western News, Wikipedia, Fitra, as well as Quran, Fascinating Discourses of Fourteen Infallibles, Nahjul Balagha.

So according to you following either one of those is sufficient?

You talk of Sunni Hadith books & Holy Quran but if I post whats in it, you accuse me of causing fitna.

Ali was told that there would be terrible fitna after Muhammad, and that his test was to deal with it, and he became the fourth Caliph for Islam. He did not kill Abu Bakr, or Uthman, or Umar, despite what happened to his friends and family. Ali was never vengeful. Ali exhibited forbearance and patience in the wake of calamity. If Imam Ali were here today, he would not provoke fitna against his Muslim Brothers. He would forbid fitna by threatening to kill anybody who called for division between Muslims. That's how important Ittihad was, and that's how important it should be. Islam is worldwide today and each of us is responsible for enjoining Ittihad.

Please let me know if you have read Sermon of Shiqshiqiqiyya? And as I have already mentioned earlier, Ijtihad is important but not at the cost of twisting and tweaking historical facts.

Most Sunni Love Ali. Everybody loves Ali. I don't know anybody who doesn't, except for maybe obama and his followers. This is shiachat, the gate of Ali. Why else would all of us be here?

Nice. Then please post only stuff which you can back with reference. I don't think it is too much of an ask. Is it?

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Allah, Most Wise, removed the pivot of the axis of the grinding mill, to show that Man can not exist without Him. Ali tried mentioning this, but there was no point in finishing his sermon if people didn't understand so he stopped.

But Allah is Merciful, and through His Friend Ali, allowed the pivot to be put back in place, and Ali reunited Islam again.

And so for thousands of years, for the Children of Israel and the Children of Ismail, we have the same story, that Allah is One, He is Our Pivot, and without Him, our grinding mill falls under the control of dajjal and sufyan. If Sunni was the grinding mill, and Shia was the Pivot, we still need each other for it to work. Ali became the grinding mill, and he never complained, because he only sought his reward from Allah, and Fatima is rewarded pearls from Earth to Heaven, and they did it for All of Islam, even Abu Bakr.

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Allah, Most Wise, removed the pivot of the axis of the grinding mill, to show that Man can not exist without Him. Ali tried mentioning this, but there was no point in finishing his sermon if people didn't understand so he stopped.

But Allah is Merciful, and through His Friend Ali, allowed the pivot to be put back in place, and Ali reunited Islam again.

And so for thousands of years, for the Children of Israel and the Children of Ismail, we have the same story, that Allah is One, He is Our Pivot, and without Him, our grinding mill falls under the control of dajjal and sufyan. If Sunni was the grinding mill, and Shia was the Pivot, we still need each other for it to work. Ali became the grinding mill, and he never complained, because he only sought his reward from Allah, and Fatima is rewarded pearls from Earth to Heaven, and they did it for All of Islam, even Abu Bakr.

You seem to be an expert in dodging questions and come up with answers which are totally irrelevant to what is being discussed.

You still are claiming things about Abu Bakr which you haven't proved from any reference and I don't want to waste my time refuting your assumptions which you cannot prove from any sahih hadiths or Quran.

Good luck with your posts.

Wassalaam.

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You seem to be an expert in dodging Itthad, and claiming things about which you do not know, nor understand.

Ali did not kill him, when we all know he could have. Why?

Because Abu Bakr said, 'Allah'.

Within Allah, contains Tawhid, Ittihad, and Seratel Mostagim.

So what of "Allah" do you deny?

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You seem to be an expert in dodging Itthad, and claiming things about which you do not know, nor understand.

Ali did not kill him, when we all know he could have. Why?

Because Abu Bakr said, 'Allah'.

Within Allah, contains Tawhid, Ittihad, and Seratel Mostagim.

So what of "Allah" do you deny?

Mr. Ijtehad, I think you are not reading my posts properly. I have already mentioned twice about ijtehad. How does this mean that I am dodging it? On the other hand, you have not answered even one question I have asked you so far. Instead all I hear from you is ijtehad and lowering your pants. Seriously, is that an answer?

I guess you don't know Imam Ali (as) at all. He has never killed anyone for his own sake. Even during the battles he used to fight only for the sake of Allah. So how do you expect him to take vengeance when the holy Prophet (pbuh) had told him to be patient after him? Do you not get this simple fact?

Even Iblees used to say Allah and pray for The Almighty all day & night. Do you want to praise him as well and tell people of ijtehaad here? Please stop throwing your garbage here & for the last time back your posts by sahih hadiths or Quranic verses.

I deny all false assumptions. Hope I am clear.

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The Ahle Sunnah have mixed views regarding Khilaafath. Some believe that anyone who is a Muslim can be a Khalifaa and lead the Ummah after the Messnger [pbuh]. Others say that the Messenger [pbuh] left it to the Ummah, to decide and choose amongst themselves their leader. Some believe and accept the events and incidents, that unfolded and took place, after the demise of the Messenger [pbuh]. Others believe that the Messenger [pbuh] named and appointed his successor and that is Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra). The reason they give for this is, that the Messenger [pbuh] ordered Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) to lead the prayers, during his final days when he was ill. So there are mixed views, when it comes to the Ahle Sunnah, since they are not so sure and absolute, about where they stand, when it comes to Khilaafath. The Ahle Sunnah believe that even if the Khalif or Hakim-e-Waqth is a sinner, then one should still accept him and must not rebel against or challenge the leader, and the reason they give for this is, that since this weakness the nation and puts the country in turmoil.

are you implying that there are sunnis out there who believe that abu bakr ra became a khalifa by mistake or by mere pattern of events????

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Your false assumption is that Abu Bakr will indefinitely go to hell.

Your false assumption is that I don't speak the Truth.

Your false assumption is that I use no Sahih Hadiths nor Quran.

Do you understand what you accuse? Do you understand the meaning of slander?

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are you implying that there are sunnis out there who believe that abu bakr ra became a khalifa by mistake or by mere pattern of events????

even Umer said that the bayt to Abu Bakr was a mistake and anyone else doing it like that should be killed

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Your false assumption is that Abu Bakr will indefinitely go to hell.

You are still not reading my posts properly. Go through them and you will understand what I am talking about.

Regarding Abu Bakr, I have given you hadiths from your Sahih Bukhari and Quranic Verse to prove my claim. How is it a false assumption? Do you even know what an assumption means? If not, check out a dictionary close to you.

Your false assumption is that I don't speak the Truth.

If you do then prove it to us that whatever you have spoken has a reference and you weren't just shooting in the dark.

Your false assumption is that I use no Sahih Hadiths nor Quran.

I have already answered this. Next time please post only with references.

Do you understand what you accuse? Do you understand the meaning of slander?

Unfortunately for you, its not me but you who is accusing and slandering here. As I have stated earlier, merely repeating what's written in Quran is no slandering. Slandering is what you are doing by falsely claiming your incorrect assumptions to be true.

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are you implying that there are sunnis out there who believe that abu bakr ra became a khalifa by mistake or by mere pattern of events????

The information I have put forward are the views and opinions of different people from Ahle Sunnah. The information i've put forward isn't due to rumours, gossip or what i've heard from someone, infact it's straight from the Ahle Sunnah scholars. Like i've said before that Ahle Sunnah are a group of people put together, who hold different thoughts, opinion and point of view about things. Now what you THINK i mean is down to your understanding.

Let me ask you a question, are you a Sunni??? If yes, then what is your point of view??? Did the Prophet [pbuh] name and appoint someone to govern after him??? Or did he leave it to the Ummah to decide, by picking and choosing their own leader??? Or was it neither of these and you simply accept, who ever and how ever came into power??? What is your thought and opinion then or are you too shy, like Mr Blacknight and others to speak out???

Lets take a look at some of the facts. Firstly if the Prophet [pbuh] did appoint Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) as his Khalif and Imaam of the people and the reason given for this is, when the Prophet [pbuh] asked Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) to lead the prayers, during his final days, then one question comes to mind and that is, why the gathering in Sakeefa??? What was the meeting in Sakeefa all about then, since we already have a selected governer, appointed by the Prophet [pbuh] himself??? It's obvious that the Muhajir and Ansaar gathered in Sakeefa to decide, who is going to take charge of the Muslim affairs after the Prophet [pbuh], who is going to lead the Ummah after the Prophet [pbuh] and the outcome/result of that meetin/gathering was, that Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was choosen/selected for the job. This proves that the Prophet [pbuh] didn't appoint Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) as his Khalifa and Imaam of the people and to use the excuse of leading the prayers as a justification for Hazrath Abu Bakar's (ra) Khilaafath/Imaamath as the Prophte's [pbuh] successor is wrong.

Secondly did the Prophet [pbuh] make an anouncement, that it should be left to the Ummah to decide, through means of Shura of whom is going to take charge of the Muslim affairs, who will be the Khalif and Imaam of the people??? If this is true then this comes to mind, that why did Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) and Hazrath Umar (ra) go against this Prophet [pbuh] selected and anounced policy??? Why didn't the Shaikhain uphold the Prophet's [pbuh] Sunnah, by leaving the selection of their successors to the Ummah, through means of Shura??? It's absolutely clear that the Ahle Sunnah are very confused about Khilaafath and Imaamath after the demise of the Prophet [pbuh] and this confusion is the reason of their mixed views and why they run from discussion and debate on such matters. I am going to leave it to the average and common mind, who are in search for the truth, to research and decide for them selves because our destiny ahead [Akhirath], doesn't just depend on Saum and Salah etc but also on this as well. One has to sort out their belief and faith.

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Please consider this, Abu Bakr has Progeny does he not? There are many Sunni, so many could be his Children. If they all prayed for him, then maybe Allah would forgive him for some of his deeds because he helped create many Muslims.

If anybody thinks Abu Bakr is destined for eternal hell, then state it, otherwise there is no need to continue this thread.

Allah is Judge, who are we to judge hell for anybody.

Besides, if Muhammad says he is going to intercede for everybody, who are we to interfere with Muhammad.

Are some of us going to counter-intercede against Muhammad? Would that make the Mother of Islam happy about someone interfering with her Father?

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Please consider this, Abu Bakr has Progeny does he not? There are many Sunni, so many could be his Children. If they all prayed for him, then maybe Allah would forgive him for some of his deeds because he helped create many Muslims.

If anybody thinks Abu Bakr is destined for eternal hell, then state it, otherwise there is no need to continue this thread.

Allah is Judge, who are we to judge hell for anybody.

Besides, if Muhammad says he is going to intercede for everybody, who are we to interfere with Muhammad.

Are some of us going to counter-intercede against Muhammad? Would that make the Mother of Islam happy about someone interfering with her Father?

Please bear in mind that I am not here to discuss probabilities. Allah is definitely the most merciful and compassionate but that doesn't mean that we should not do our own reasearch.

Abu Bakr may or may not be destined to hell. That is not the point. The point is he wasn't what you are making of him now.

Please read the hadith of the pool, not everyone will be interceded by the prophet (pbuh) as you have again wrongly stated. This is why I keep telling you to prove your words by references.

Now, who is the mother of Islam? Do you mean Bibi Fathema (s)? Please provide references from where you heard/read this? I would like to know the details. Thanks.

Edited by yam_110

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Please consider this, Abu Bakr has Progeny does he not? There are many Sunni, so many could be his Children. If they all prayed for him, then maybe Allah would forgive him for some of his deeds because he helped create many Muslims.

If anybody thinks Abu Bakr is destined for eternal hell, then state it, otherwise there is no need to continue this thread.

Allah is Judge, who are we to judge hell for anybody.

Besides, if Muhammad says he is going to intercede for everybody, who are we to interfere with Muhammad.

Are some of us going to counter-intercede against Muhammad? Would that make the Mother of Islam happy about someone interfering with her Father?

Listen pal, you need to calm down by keeping your shirt on. Try and get a grip on your emotions! I didn't say anything About Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) going anywhere, never mind about hell. It's not about Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) or me judging him about, where his position is going to be. It's about fact finding, it's about searching for the truth, it's about believing in what is right, it's about being sensible and logical, infact it's about where our position is going to be, based on our belief and faith and this is what it's all about pal. It's got nothing to do with Hazrath anybody, it's to do with us and our destiny, so don't you think it's about time we stopped playing games with each other, about one party committed to lets find the truth and the other party committed to lets hide the truth???

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You both bring up interesting questions about the Truth, and for that matter Justice.

When Allah Created Heaven it was a nice place. Adam must have been very happy. But things changed. And now here we are.

I Believe Allah is So Akbar, that Allah can make Heaven even nicer than it was, especially since there are a lot more creatures, and Allah is Akbar. So when I explore probabilities and possibilities, I think that Enjoining Good also means to aim for the Best Possibilities for everything. After All Allah is Most Compassionate and Most Merciful.

Hardship, which presumably did not exist before, is something that makes comfort more pleasant, it becomes the past.

It just doesn't make sense to me to remember what bad someone did. I only remember what good someone else did, and that is more useful to me. For example, I remember what Imam Hussayn did for Islam, not necessarily what happened to him and his family. How can this good and bad be unmixed and separated. I don't know.

I have friends who have done bad things to me, but I prefer to remember just their better points. Probably because we are all equal in creation, and it is better to think of friends as equals. Kind of as Allah says that it is better for us to forgive.

Do unto others as we would unto ourselves. Allah knows all about me, but Allah hides and covers things about me that He doesn't think is necessary for others to know or see.

I don't know Abu Bakrs heart. But I like to think that the best scenario for him is that he regrets any of his flaws, so there would be no need for me to try to uncover them, even if they were very small or very large. Kind of like how Allah says that no sin should be seen as small.

And I also consider those who were born to believe that someone was your hero, only to find that it was not true is also not such a great experience.

I am lucky in the sense that many things I thought were bad about me or my background have turned out to be much better than originally thought.

So although I have probably read and studied more or less what you have, I don't prefer to look there, because I have pretty much memorized it. But I could never say that it is worthy of indefinite hell, because I can't say I have been there. To dwell upon it is almost like going ahead of where maybe I shouldn't go, so I don't go there so willingly, because Truth is a matter of Allah to determine, and for me to uphold it in His Name.

Allah didn't require Adam to know Good and Evil, so Allah must have had Good reason for that as well.

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As a former Sunni myself, I find your thread pointless. What do you hope to accomplish by complaining/insulting Sunnis? The akhlaq of this community sometimes bothers me.... The point of you debating should be to help a person see and understand the truth. If you can't help them, you aren't the one Allah wanted to guide them or you should read more about how the imams (as) debated....

If a Sunni reads this thread, do u think that will make them think anything good of Shias? You are SHIA, you should act better and more mature than a Sunni or any other Muslim. You represent Islam. So please don't post threads where you vent your feelings about you last debate....

Honestly, I thought Shias were the most mature, smart, well-mannered people until I started using this site a lot recently....

I am quite surprised/shocked to see your reply brother. I just made a point and inquired Sunnis about it. Was my tone negative? Did i try to insult them? Did i try to hurt their religious feelings? I do not know why you have posted this.

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I am quite surprised/shocked to see your reply brother. I just made a point and inquired Sunnis about it. Was my tone negative? Did i try to insult them? Did i try to hurt their religious feelings? I do not know why you have posted this.

I had read some [Edited Out] about sunnis on sc before seeing this thread which made me a kinda mad so your thread seemed like you were trying to mock them especially since your title sounds like one called "why shias cant prove imamate" or something.... Also I am a sister:p

It seemed like to me that you were saying "shut up sunnis, you have no argument," rather than asking an innocent question, so if you were truly just asking, I'm sorry for my comment..

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I had read some [Edited Out] about sunnis on sc before seeing this thread which made me a kinda mad so your thread seemed like you were trying to mock them especially since your title sounds like one called "why shias cant prove imamate" or something.... Also I am a sister:p

It seemed like to me that you were saying "shut up sunnis, you have no argument," rather than asking an innocent question, so if you were truly just asking, I'm sorry for my comment..

Sister I joined SC this year and I understand what you mean. At first I was so nice to sunnis now my view has changed dramatically and i get really mad easier because they kill abuse and accuse us all the time! All they do is call us kaffir and curse us. Im tired of it honestly. Have you seen their tv shows? you will start crying! Now on this website we have many who say something and run away, you get mad after a while because they never answer your questions, all they do is abuse. I dont know what to do anymore. They wont even look at our side neutrally....

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Sister I joined SC this year and I understand what you mean. At first I was so nice to sunnis now my view has changed dramatically and i get really mad easier because they kill abuse and accuse us all the time! All they do is call us kaffir and curse us. Im tired of it honestly. Have you seen their tv shows? you will start crying! Now on this website we have many who say something and run away, you get mad after a while because they never answer your questions, all they do is abuse. I dont know what to do anymore. They wont even look at our side neutrally....

Ive seen sunnis like that online and spoke with them and theyve unsuccessfully tried to convert me back... it bothers me that people assume all sunnis are like that when there are a few who arent... and Ive seen a brother speak calmly to a illogically sunni for like 3 days straight ( the sunni wouldnt let it go) before he lost patience, and he didnt yell or curse or namecall the sunni when he was tired of debating... If you meet a bad sunni, move on with your life... I just hate when people complain about it. Plus what did Imam Hassan do when a minion of Muawwiya came and insulted his father, saying Imam Ali (as) had horrible akhlaq and other lies? Imam Hassan (as)stood quietly and listened to the man. Then Imam Hassan (as) began by greeting the man with Salam. Imam Hussan (as) told him he knew where he came from and that it wasnt the man's fault that Muwiyya had tricked him, had lied to him, to bring out hatred in the man's heart for the ahlul bayt. Hussan (as) then invited the man into his home, and the Imam (as)gave the man fresh clothes since his clothes were all torn and dirty. The man then apologized and realized Muwiyya had tricked him. The man set out to tell the truth about the ahlul bayt and his encounter with the Imam (as).The Imam (as) did not get angry or upset... Now if you get upset over a sunni killing a shia, that is different...

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Ive seen sunnis like that online and spoke with them and theyve unsuccessfully tried to convert me back... it bothers me that people assume all sunnis are like that when there are a few who arent... and Ive seen a brother speak calmly to a illogically sunni for like 3 days straight ( the sunni wouldnt let it go) before he lost patience, and he didnt yell or curse or namecall the sunni when he was tired of debating... If you meet a bad sunni, move on with your life... I just hate when people complain about it. Plus what did Imam Hassan do when a minion of Muawwiya came and insulted his father, saying Imam Ali (as) had horrible akhlaq and other lies? Imam Hassan (as)stood quietly and listened to the man. Then Imam Hassan (as) began by greeting the man with Salam. Imam Hussan (as) told him he knew where he came from and that it wasnt the man's fault that Muwiyya had tricked him, had lied to him, to bring out hatred in the man's heart for the ahlul bayt. Hussan (as) then invited the man into his home, and the Imam (as)gave the man fresh clothes since his clothes were all torn and dirty. The man then apologized and realized Muwiyya had tricked him. The man set out to tell the truth about the ahlul bayt and his encounter with the Imam (as).The Imam (as) did not get angry or upset... Now if you get upset over a sunni killing a shia, that is different...

Im trying sister, thank you for your motivation. Indeed the true followers of the ahlulbayt are people like you who come from other religious backgrounds. Inshallah, my faith and patience becomes like yours. Im glad I have people like you in my religion, it truly shows me its the true path!. Wa Salaam

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OMG,

the irony of shias complaining about the abusive and abhorrent beahviour of sunnis is comical !!!!!

I will say that ali ra will be "turning in his grave" (not literally - its just a saying in the UK) about the behaviour of the majority of shias (not all of them). I must say that now I can see why there is such anti shia feeling out there on youtube !!!!

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Im trying sister, thank you for your motivation. Indeed the true followers of the ahlulbayt are people like you who come from other religious backgrounds. Inshallah, my faith and patience becomes like yours. Im glad I have people like you in my religion, it truly shows me its the true path!. Wa Salaam

You're welcome sister, but I'm not exactly a true follower quite yet lol iA gotta work on some things myself but soon tho, but hA it has motivated you :)

And may ur faith and patience become much better than mine iA

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You're welcome sister, but I'm not exactly a true follower quite yet lol iA gotta work on some things myself but soon tho, but hA it has motivated you :)

And may ur faith and patience become much better than mine iA

I'm a male : )

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You both bring up interesting questions about the Truth, and for that matter Justice.

When Allah Created Heaven it was a nice place. Adam must have been very happy. But things changed. And now here we are.

I Believe Allah is So Akbar, that Allah can make Heaven even nicer than it was, especially since there are a lot more creatures, and Allah is Akbar. So when I explore probabilities and possibilities, I think that Enjoining Good also means to aim for the Best Possibilities for everything. After All Allah is Most Compassionate and Most Merciful.

Hardship, which presumably did not exist before, is something that makes comfort more pleasant, it becomes the past.

It just doesn't make sense to me to remember what bad someone did. I only remember what good someone else did, and that is more useful to me. For example, I remember what Imam Hussayn did for Islam, not necessarily what happened to him and his family. How can this good and bad be unmixed and separated. I don't know.

I have friends who have done bad things to me, but I prefer to remember just their better points. Probably because we are all equal in creation, and it is better to think of friends as equals. Kind of as Allah says that it is better for us to forgive.

Do unto others as we would unto ourselves. Allah knows all about me, but Allah hides and covers things about me that He doesn't think is necessary for others to know or see.

I don't know Abu Bakrs heart. But I like to think that the best scenario for him is that he regrets any of his flaws, so there would be no need for me to try to uncover them, even if they were very small or very large. Kind of like how Allah says that no sin should be seen as small.

And I also consider those who were born to believe that someone was your hero, only to find that it was not true is also not such a great experience.

I am lucky in the sense that many things I thought were bad about me or my background have turned out to be much better than originally thought.

So although I have probably read and studied more or less what you have, I don't prefer to look there, because I have pretty much memorized it. But I could never say that it is worthy of indefinite hell, because I can't say I have been there. To dwell upon it is almost like going ahead of where maybe I shouldn't go, so I don't go there so willingly, because Truth is a matter of Allah to determine, and for me to uphold it in His Name.

Allah didn't require Adam to know Good and Evil, so Allah must have had Good reason for that as well.

Quite a philosophical reply. But I must tell you that Allah in His book the Holy Qur'an urged us to know about the earlier nations and to learn lessons from their histories. Also, Allah told us about the Pharaohs, Haman, Nimrod, Quaroon, and about the early prophets and their nations, not for the sake of pleasure, but to show us what is right and what is wrong.

So all I am doing is following Allah's orders and learning my lesson through history.

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Allah ordered not to dispute between Sects and that He would explain to them.

Allah ordered not to cause fitna.

Allah warned of fire for those who insisted on doing so.

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Allah ordered not to dispute between Sects and that He would explain to them.

Allah ordered not to cause fitna.

Allah warned of fire for those who insisted on doing so.

Who is disputing here? As I have stated before, merely stating whats in Quran is no dispute. It's means of getting enlightened.

Again, apart from you no one is causing fitna here. Not paying attention to Quranic verses and Sahih hadiths are some of the things you have been consistently doing here. Also, you have not answered even a single question I have been asking you.

Next time, expect a reply only when you reply with answers to my questions. And again, I am not interested in wasting my time refuting your assumptions.

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Well hopefully this could be enlightening:

The Hour will come like a thief in the night = after the fact

1979Revolution, Imam Khomeini

1979RussoAfghanWar, Bin Laden

1979EnergyCrisis, Jimmy Carter, rule will only last 9 months

The standard of the Yamani is what we should follow.

Nobody is able to prove that Bin Laden disobeyed Allah.

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