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In the Name of God بسم الله

The Hadeeth Rejecters


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"The Quranists are just a bunch of ignorants who think they can understand Islam without doing all the grunt work like learning and studying Islamic literature"

"Quranists" usually identify as just muslim, unlike their sectarian counterparts. We don't care about your precious Islamic literature. I, for one, do not give two hoots about spending time studying something I KNOW is fraudulent and not authorized by Him.

Hasbuna KitabuAllah.

Salaam.

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Gypsy, on 04 Nov 2012 - 1:46 PM, said:

Very timely article. Nicely written too.

The Quranists are just a bunch of ignorants who think they can understand Islam without doing all the grunt work like learning and studying Islamic literature.

 

True I know some Quranists unfortunately.

 

They think they are smarter than the entire Islamic world who follows quran and the prophet(S)

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"The Quranists are just a bunch of ignorants who think they can understand Islam without doing all the grunt work like learning and studying Islamic literature"

"Quranists" usually identify as just muslim, unlike their sectarian counterparts. We don't care about your precious Islamic literature. I, for one, do not give two hoots about spending time studying something I KNOW is fraudulent and not authorized by Him.

Hasbuna KitabuAllah.

Salam

 

You yourself are a sect for believing only in the Quran.

 

That itself is following a set of beliefs different from everyone else which sounds like a sect to me.

 

"Hasbuna kitabuAllah"

 

funny I wonder what would happen if you got 2 quranists and ask them to interpret one verse of the Quran they would probably argue amongst themselves(that sounds like a good punch line for a joke).

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I was a Qur'anist once, but they cannot agree on anything and I got frustrated with their ignorance. They said some stupid things like saying Ya Allah was blasphemy and disrespectful. I don't look back, you know?

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar
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I was a Qur'anist once, but they cannot agree on anything and I got frustrated with their ignorance. They said some stupid things like saying Ya Allah was blasphemy and disrespectful. I don't look back, you know?

 

maybe because im young and i dont have info and experience but im a part Quranist id say, anything that sounds illogical in hadiths i disregard it so instead i rely on Quranic verses for evidence as a primary source, how did you escape this way of thought and what convinced you enough that hadiths can and are infact true?

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maybe because im young and i dont have info and experience but im a part Quranist id say, anything that sounds illogical in hadiths i disregard it so instead i rely on Quranic verses for evidence as a primary source, how did you escape this way of thought and what convinced you enough that hadiths can and are infact true?

I looked at Shia hadiths that quoted and supported the Quran, that was when I started to reconsider, plus the way how the Qur'anists drew some people to atheism in their forum played a part in realizing that Qur'an alone is not true Islam. Plus, they could not tell me who Abu Lahab is without not referring to hadiths. (I knew who Abu Lahab was, I was curious because they do not refer hadith and I wanted to know their interpretation.) I was still new to Islam and fell for the lie that the hadiths were a conspiracy, that's how I was unfortunate enough to meet them. Now, I am more wary of what people say and post on the Internet.

Plus, they called themselves the true Islam but were divided into three groups, the Qur'anists, the 19ers and the Submitters. There cannot be more than one version of the truth. I also read English translations of the Qur'anists and I don't think any of them have any legit Arabic understanding. There is something terribly amiss with their understanding and I agree with Darth Vader, there is no reason for Hansel and Gretel to make a new religion with their limited understanding of their own religion. You catch my drift, HayderM?

I wouldn't say that you are a Qur'anist, if anything, you are following the instructions in the prologue to Al-Kafi: Any hadiths that confirms what is the Qur'an, accept it; Any hadith which contradicts the Qur'an, reject it.

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The Quran calls to Ahlulbayt and emphasizes on Harun being better at speech at conveying to what Musa felt like he had knot with respect to conveying in so many Surahs, in different paraphrases lest we interpret one verse without light of the other. All this is to emphasize on the need of hadiths. God too has a knot on his tongue believe it or not, or lest 99.9% will disbelieve in Quran and it would not have been passed. The knot is due to our hearts having veils and us accusing the people who guide by the truth of teaching non-sense and absolute rubish with respect to the station of humanity and face of God/Ismal atham.

 

The Quran whispers silently, while Ahlulbayt (as) speak eloquently, and Urufa sacrifice themselves to make people understand hadiths.

 

Whoever doesn't want to enter through Ali will never know the city of knowledge and place of light.

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The hadith is a great resource about muslim history and heritage but the problem also is that the grading of narraters is based on their ideological beliefs and that leads to them being strenghtned or weakened depending on who you ask

 

This causes an inherit bias in interpreting "authentic" hadith vs "weak " hadith

 

I think ALL hadith weak or strong should be used as an importance resource as long as it is just a historical report and does not base our core beliefs on them , as God alone knows which narrater was truly trustworthy.

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I think ALL hadith weak or strong should be used as an importance resource as long as it is just a historical report and does not base our core beliefs on them , as God alone knows which narrater was truly trustworthy.

The way I look at it with respect to the hadiths that name the twelve Imams, is that, the final Messenger should give detail clarification to the commands in Quran. For example Ulil-Amr obviously are Imams of guidance that are appointed by God given the context with emphasis on the great authority of the family of Ibrahim before, and it be coupled with obedience to the Messenger, and after emphasizing all Messengers were sent to be obeyed by God's permission, so it's all in context of the divine authority that is obligatory for people to recognize the holders of. So hadiths would clarify their number (7 or 12 or 15 or whatever) and that their names would be also given. 

 

Given reason and Quran, these hadiths should be a basis by which we make our beliefs upon.

 

Therefore there being only one number by hadiths (not withstanding copyist errors with respect to 13 by stating 12 Imams in offspring) and one set of names, they stand as a proof by which we can form our beliefs upon.

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(salam)

Is the Prophet just a postman

 

---

 

Here is another verse:

59:7 [...]And whatever the Messenger has given you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from[...]

Here the Quran records the command of God to take what he gives us (i.e. commands and perhaps also advice) and refrain from what he has forbidden.

Perhaps we might take the verse of wudhu as an example. The verse lists the wajib (obligatory) rituals in wudhu. But the Prophet told of us some extra rituals in wudhu which are mustahhab (desirable but not obligatory).

 

 

I will not touch all points, a few... 

 

WAS THE PROPHET OF GOD AKIN TO A POSTMAN WHO SIMPLY DELIVERS A MESSAGE?

 

In discussions and in what is written, it is often implied that the Quran-centric approach renders the Prophet into merely a 'postman' who is tasked to simply deliver a message. Such an attribution seems to be in part, a result of the limiting reading of verses such as 42:48, 13:40 and 5:99, in which the Prophetic role to deliver the message is emphasised without giving due appreciation to context and wider Quranic narratives.

If one studies such verses, one would note that such an emphasis to deliver the message is hedged with the underlying proviso that the Prophet would not be a warden over his people or be responsible for 'converting' others to the true religion. Rather, it would remain God’s responsibility as to whom to ultimately guide. Hence, it is in this context that once notes the emphasis of the Prophetic role to primarily deliver the message. 

Prophet Muhammad had TWO major roles during his ministry. His task was to deliver the revelations inspired in him by way of the Quran to mankind and in the same stroke, to IMPLEMENT ITS guidance in the complete sphere of his life during his Prophetic ministry. The Prophet made use of the Quran as a clarification (tibiana lekulli shaye 16:89) and a guide to apply to his particular circumstances where:

 

(1) He made judgments by making use of the Quran's guidance. (24:48)

(2) He was an arbitrator and settled disputes (24:51; 8:46)

(3) He was a counsellor / consultant (58:12) 

(4) He was a military leader and made use of the Quran's guidance to conduct his affairs during war (8:1; 8:7)

(5) He was a community leader (60:12) and consulted with his contemporaries to make best decisions for the community (3:159)

(6) He was the state leader of a chain of commands (4:59)

(7) He was the community's treasurer (8:41)

[8] He was a spiritual leader and was tasked to proclaim the message and deliver warnings (38:70) 

(9) He was a spiritual guide in his personal sphere (e.g. with his wives 33:33)

 

In all that he did engulfing his ministry and in dealing with his wider circumstances, the Prophet made use of God's guidance as revealed to him by the Quran. If one were alive during His ministry and took ‘BAYA'A’ (oath of allegiance) with him (60:12; 48:18), then as a believer, one would be expected to follow / obey the Prophet's commands. A 'baya'a' with the Prophet would be akin to making an oath with God Himself (48:10).

 

However, the Prophet is not alive today to take 'baya'a with nor are the circumstances present for the Prophet to implement the Quran's guidance. We all exist in different communities, at a different time with differing circumstances and challenges. Prophetic practice refers to the practical responses of a Prophet in his capacity as a guide sent by God to deal with the circumstances that he is presented with during his ministry. In such a capacity, a Prophet makes use of Divine guidance revealed to him and implements them in the best possible manner to his circumstances. Therefore, for the Prophet's Sunna to have any intrinsic relevance, the circumstances of 7th century Arabia that the Prophet faced would also inevitably need to exist.

 

Hence, there is no Quranic warrant to 'religiously' sanction a corpus that 'allegedly' details a practice of a people of a certain time of ancient history. Indeed, one should attempt to understand how a people attempted to implement the guidance of the Quran to their particular circumstances to gain any pearls of underlying wisdom and possible best practice. However, this should not be understood as 'religiously binding'.

 

Therefore, to draw an analogy of the Prophet simply with a 'postman' is not only unduly inappropriate and restrictive; it is also without any Quranic warrant regardless of who makes the assertion.

 

Similarly, to make use of Prophetic practice to sanction a corpus as 'religiously binding' also remains without any Quranic warrant. 

 

 

-----------------------------------------

 

 

A common example is quoted from verse 59:7 of the Quran. If one consults the verse, one will note that the quote is completely devoid of context which clearly refers to the booty acquired during war.  The Quran is clearly informing the community through the Prophet that whatever of the booty the Prophet allocates, take it and whatever he withholds, abstain from it. This is with the view that the gain does not accumulate solely amongst the rich.

 

 

"And whatever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatever he forbids you, leave it. And fear Allah: truly Allah is severe in punishment"

 

"Whatever God has restored to His Messenger from the people of the towns, it is for God and for the Messenger, and for the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, so that it may not be a thing taken by turns among the rich among you, and whatever the Messenger gives you, accept it, and from whatever he forbids you, keep back, and be careful of (your duty to) God; surely God is severe in retributing (evil)" (59:7)

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bismih ta'ala

assalamu alaykum

 

maybe because im young and i dont have info and experience but im a part Quranist id say, anything that sounds illogical in hadiths i disregard it so instead i rely on Quranic verses for evidence as a primary source, how did you escape this way of thought and what convinced you enough that hadiths can and are infact true?

 

.....
I wouldn't say that you are a Qur'anist, if anything, you are following the instructions in the prologue to Al-Kafi: Any hadiths that confirms what is the Qur'an, accept it; Any hadith which contradicts the Qur'an, reject it.

 

It should be noted that contradicting the Qur'an means contradicting the Qur'an, not your interpretation of the Qur'an, nor an interpolation of many verses with additional commentary of what you think.

 

To Br. Hayder, be careful. A Hadith sounding illogical to your fallible and young ears should not be sufficient grounds to disregard, or, God forbid, reject them. Especially when one is a novice to the sciences of Hadith. Even when a Hadith "strange" (for lack of a better word) in its Matn (i.e. content) we are told to do Tawaqquf (i.e. not accepting or rejecting the Hadith), otherwise rejecting it is considered tantamount to calling the Imam (as) a liar, and as per some Ahadith, exiting Wilayah. May Allah keep us safe from such calamities.

 

Analysis of the content of a Hadith in order to better understand the meaning of it is a science in and of itself known as Fiqh Al-Hadith - or the 'Jurisprudence of Hadith'. Br. Ibn Al-Hussain has written a post on his website introducing this science. May Allah bless him. http://www.iqraonline.net/how-to-better-understand-and-study-hadith/

 

InshaAllah you find success in your journey of learning about the Madhhab, brother.

 

wa assalam

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IjazLinorAhmad, on 09 Sept 2015 - 04:50 AM, said:

I will not touch all points, a few... 

 

WAS THE PROPHET OF GOD AKIN TO A POSTMAN WHO SIMPLY DELIVERS A MESSAGE?

 

In discussions and in what is written, it is often implied that the Quran-centric approach renders the Prophet into merely a 'postman' who is tasked to simply deliver a message. Such an attribution seems to be in part, a result of the limiting reading of verses such as 42:48, 13:40 and 5:99, in which the Prophetic role to deliver the message is emphasised without giving due appreciation to context and wider Quranic narratives.

If one studies such verses, one would note that such an emphasis to deliver the message is hedged with the underlying proviso that the Prophet would not be a warden over his people or be responsible for 'converting' others to the true religion. Rather, it would remain God’s responsibility as to whom to ultimately guide. Hence, it is in this context that once notes the emphasis of the Prophetic role to primarily deliver the message. 

Prophet Muhammad had TWO major roles during his ministry. His task was to deliver the revelations inspired in him by way of the Quran to mankind and in the same stroke, to IMPLEMENT ITS guidance in the complete sphere of his life during his Prophetic ministry. The Prophet made use of the Quran as a clarification (tibiana lekulli shaye 16:89) and a guide to apply to his particular circumstances where:

 

(1) He made judgments by making use of the Quran's guidance. (24:48)

(2) He was an arbitrator and settled disputes (24:51; 8:46)

(3) He was a counsellor / consultant (58:12) 

(4) He was a military leader and made use of the Quran's guidance to conduct his affairs during war (8:1; 8:7)

(5) He was a community leader (60:12) and consulted with his contemporaries to make best decisions for the community (3:159)

(6) He was the state leader of a chain of commands (4:59)

(7) He was the community's treasurer (8:41)

[8] He was a spiritual leader and was tasked to proclaim the message and deliver warnings (38:70) 

(9) He was a spiritual guide in his personal sphere (e.g. with his wives 33:33)

 

In all that he did engulfing his ministry and in dealing with his wider circumstances, the Prophet made use of God's guidance as revealed to him by the Quran. If one were alive during His ministry and took ‘BAYA'A’ (oath of allegiance) with him (60:12; 48:18), then as a believer, one would be expected to follow / obey the Prophet's commands. A 'baya'a' with the Prophet would be akin to making an oath with God Himself (48:10).

 

However, the Prophet is not alive today to take 'baya'a with nor are the circumstances present for the Prophet to implement the Quran's guidance. We all exist in different communities, at a different time with differing circumstances and challenges. Prophetic practice refers to the practical responses of a Prophet in his capacity as a guide sent by God to deal with the circumstances that he is presented with during his ministry. In such a capacity, a Prophet makes use of Divine guidance revealed to him and implements them in the best possible manner to his circumstances. Therefore, for the Prophet's Sunna to have any intrinsic relevance, the circumstances of 7th century Arabia that the Prophet faced would also inevitably need to exist.

 

Hence, there is no Quranic warrant to 'religiously' sanction a corpus that 'allegedly' details a practice of a people of a certain time of ancient history. Indeed, one should attempt to understand how a people attempted to implement the guidance of the Quran to their particular circumstances to gain any pearls of underlying wisdom and possible best practice. However, this should not be understood as 'religiously binding'.

 

Therefore, to draw an analogy of the Prophet simply with a 'postman' is not only unduly inappropriate and restrictive; it is also without any Quranic warrant regardless of who makes the assertion.

 

Similarly, to make use of Prophetic practice to sanction a corpus as 'religiously binding' also remains without any Quranic warrant. 

 

 

-----------------------------------------

 

 

A common example is quoted from verse 59:7 of the Quran. If one consults the verse, one will note that the quote is completely devoid of context which clearly refers to the booty acquired during war.  The Quran is clearly informing the community through the Prophet that whatever of the booty the Prophet allocates, take it and whatever he withholds, abstain from it. This is with the view that the gain does not accumulate solely amongst the rich.

 

 

"And whatever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatever he forbids you, leave it. And fear Allah: truly Allah is severe in punishment"

 

"Whatever God has restored to His Messenger from the people of the towns, it is for God and for the Messenger, and for the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, so that it may not be a thing taken by turns among the rich among you, and whatever the Messenger gives you, accept it, and from whatever he forbids you, keep back, and be careful of (your duty to) God; surely God is severe in retributing (evil)" (59:7)

 

The Quran itself says to follow God and his prophet.

Yes the Quran is the judge but you and I cannot understand the Quran without the guidance of the prophet and his ahlul bayt.

 

Furthermore if In Islam we where meant to just follow the Quran and not the prophet what about the prophets who came without a holy book how where their people supposed to follow them unless their commands had to be recorded somehow and followed.

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Salaam.

I am not a Quranist

But...Well. To be fair. The Sahih hadiths are very contradictory. And often portray the Prophet in Immoral actions such as slavery, rape, domestic abuse, killing for disbelief , pedophilia etc directly contradictory to other Hadith. And some detail him authorizing things directly contradictory to the Qur'ans laws.

The Hadith essentially go by "Hey, I knew a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy who heard Muhammad (pbuh) say...." this, as you can Imagine, is prone to distortion. 

Also, as the Qur'an was indeed carried by some oral tradition, it was largely written on sheepskin and camel bones in the time of the Prophet. There is overwhelming archeological evidence for this. Historically, it was collected by Ali, Abu Bakr and later, Uthman within 20 years of the Prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) death.

The first hadith however, were written down fully only after almost two centuries. In medieval times. Where long distance communication was next to impossible.

 

They cannot logically survive without being corrupted after that long. Anthropologically it is simply not possible.

Look. I don't reject the Hadith at all. Many of them are authentic (the ones revealed by members of the golden Chain and many other accepted Awliya especially) 

But in general, I view the Hadith more or less the same way I view the Bible and the Tanakh. In that they are corrupted by human hand. 

But offer a good view onto the Time of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), if not a slightly blurry one. And are more often than not, Authentic.

I don't agree with Qur'anists at all. But they offer invaluable insight into the Qur'an at times and make very good points sometimes. 

Although its basically not possible for Islam to function without knowing some form of the Sunnah. In whatever Hadith, Sunni or Shia, availiable. And especially from the histories of Ibn Ishaq and Ibn Hisham .

Theres a huge difference between being skeptical of many Hadith and rejecting them outright.

 

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