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3alii

Tatbir And Zanjeer

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Salamu Alaykom..

I posted this simply for awareness of what Scholars say about this. If someone disagrees then so be it, however the link is simply some food for thought..

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[Mod Note: This reply is for an inappropriate post which was removed by a Moderator.]

What are you implying Dawud.

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I see, this is the first time I have really been active.. I could delete it if it causes problems :)

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Wisdom cannot be imparted. Wisdom that a man attempts to impart always sounds like foolishness to someone else ... Knowledge can be communicated, but not wisdom. One can find it, live it, do wonders through it, but one cannot communicate and teach it...

Hermann Hesse.

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Salam,

Here is a relevant article worth reading, titled "Tears to Tatbir"

http://xa.yimg.com/k...s To Tatbir.pdf

Thank you for the article, I have not seen such a paper before.. will be interesting to read :)

Same old stupid arguement moharram is coming have some patience,feeling pity for you people and if possible i will inshallah post some of the pictures of this year tatbir.

HATERS GONNA HATE

No one is hating..

‘To develop a complete mind, study the science of art, study the art of science. Learn how to see. Realise that everything connects to everything else..

-Leonardo Da Vinci

I was merely giving you the opinion of scholars.. I have preformed tatbir in Syria before.. it comes from a rage of emotion that becomes uncontrollable.. However after much 'objective' research on such issues, you will see a whole different reality.. im not against your views . i dont have that right.. but i can share what has factual basis and a way for you to see something in a different light.. if you dont agree then fine, never once did I personally give my opinion in it.

Edited by alhashimi

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On 10/25/2012 at 3:58 AM, alhashimi said:

Thank you for the article, I have not seen such a paper before.. will be interesting to read :)

No one is hating..

‘To develop a complete mind, study the science of art, study the art of science. Learn how to see. Realise that everything connects to everything else..

-Leonardo Da Vinci

I was merely giving you the opinion of scholars.. I have preformed tatbir in Syria before.. it comes from a rage of emotion that becomes uncontrollable.. However after much 'objective' research on such issues, you will see a whole different reality.. im not against your views . i dont have that right.. but i can share what has factual basis and a way for you to see something in a different light.. if you dont agree then fine, never once did I personally give my opinion in it.

I don't need your opinion and your quotes your post just plays on one side you have post the fatwas of the scholar who oppose this but what about those scholars who supports this? Why havent you mention their names?

Deta hai Bad’dua mujay Meray Badan ka Khoon

Matam agar Zanjeer sey Shabbir [a.s.] ka Na Karu

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I don't need your opinion and your quotes your post just plays on one side you have post the fatwas of the scholar who oppose this but what about those scholars who supports this? Why havent you mention their names?

Deta hai Bad'dua mujay Meray Badan ka Khoon

Matam agar Zanjeer sey Shabbir [a.s.] ka Na Karu

Name me some scholars who support it.. I have not come across any so If you know any who do, please feel free to link me.. As i said, the original post was merely food for thought and nothing else.. As for the 2 last lines you said, i dont understand the language sorry.. I speak arabic, english, french and spanish..

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Name me some scholars who support it.. I have not come across any so If you know any who do, please feel free to link me.. As i said, the original post was merely food for thought and nothing else.. As for the 2 last lines you said, i dont understand the language sorry.. I speak arabic, english, french and spanish..

  • Sayyid Al Khoi.
  • Shaykh Abdul Kareem Al Ha'ery
  • Sayyid Sadiq Al Shirazi.
  • Sayyid Muhammad Al Shirazi.
  • Sayyid Ali Sistani.
  • Sayyid Muhammad Sadiq Al Rohani.
  • Shaykh Vahid Al Khorasani.
  • Sayyid Muhsin Al Hakim.
  • Shaykh Mirza Al Tabrizi.

I am sure there are plenty more I've forgotten. All of these men agreed that at the very least there is no harm nor prohibition on tatbir and zanjeer, some of them were more in 'support' of the act then the others.

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On 10/25/2012 at 12:36 PM, Dawud. said:
  • Sayyid Al Khoi.
  • Shaykh Abdul Kareem Al Ha'ery
  • Sayyid Sadiq Al Shirazi.
  • Sayyid Muhammad Al Shirazi.
  • Sayyid Ali Sistani.
  • Sayyid Muhammad Sadiq Al Rohani.
  • Shaykh Vahid Al Khorasani.
  • Sayyid Muhsin Al Hakim.
  • Shaykh Mirza Al Tabrizi.

I am sure there are plenty more I've forgotten. All of these men agreed that at the very least there is no harm nor prohibition on tatbir and zanjeer, some of them were more in 'support' of the act then the others.

You clearly have not read my original post. I suggest you read it and take out 6 of the scholars you have mentioned. As far as Ayatullah Kashmire who is the direct representative of Sayyid ali Sistani is concerned, this act is not permissible.. I know this as a fact because I asked him in person.. Please read the original post first. As for the others I will do some research. If you could provide links I would be grateful.

Sayyid Al Khoi...

http://tatbir.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/khoei-reply.jpg

Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã What is the order of the shariah about hitting (with) such “Qameh” or chains? Please explain in detail.

Answer:

Bisimihi Taala. This action has not been mentioned anywhere in the Holy Shariah. Not only that, but in any case it causes damage and becomes a source of mockery for the others, it is haraam.

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Brother, If there were no men of wisdom, society would not have progressed as far as it has now. Nor would it have enabled people like us to study such topics in such simplistic manner. We are merely atoms in the eyes of knowledge, yet we think ourselves to be great due to the several books we have read. These scholars have made their opinions clear, they have websites and offices across the world for anyone to approach and question such Fatwas and responses to Questions regarding practice. I do not for a minute ridicule any scholar no matter how absurd his teachings may be. I actually admire such people whom have taken a responsibility which they will be held accountable for by Allah swt if they have mislead anyone. One thing that was key to the success of the Islamic Golden era was the sharing of knowledge and the acceptance by one if his work had been completely proven wrong. Nowadays all everyone intends is to be right. Of course I am critical of your list of Scholars whom support this form of mourning because these same scholars have opposed it. Phone their office and they will confirm it. I have once participated in such mourning and now look upon it objectively. The proof which supports such actions is little against the proof which opposes them. I am open to the ideas for as i have seen very little good arguments and if you do wish to provide me with such arguments I would invite you to share some links.

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Brother, If there were no men of wisdom, society would not have progressed as far as it has now. Nor would it have enabled people like us to study such topics in such simplistic manner. We are merely atoms in the eyes of knowledge, yet we think ourselves to be great due to the several books we have read. These scholars have made their opinions clear, they have websites and offices across the world for anyone to approach and question such Fatwas and responses to Questions regarding practice. I do not for a minute ridicule any scholar no matter how absurd his teachings may be. I actually admire such people whom have taken a responsibility which they will be held accountable for by Allah swt if they have mislead anyone. One thing that was key to the success of the Islamic Golden era was the sharing of knowledge and the acceptance by one if his work had been completely proven wrong. Nowadays all everyone intends is to be right. Of course I am critical of your list of Scholars whom support this form of mourning because these same scholars have opposed it. Phone their office and they will confirm it. I have once participated in such mourning and now look upon it objectively. The proof which supports such actions is little against the proof which opposes them. I am open to the ideas for as i have seen very little good arguments and if you do wish to provide me with such arguments I would invite you to share some links.

One brother above have given you one very good link with arguments in it's favor. As far as these scholars are concerned, you claim you have contacted their offices, and they deny it. Then what about the video of Ay Waheed Khurasani ,which you can easily find on youtube? And what about Ay, Muhammad shirazi, and Ay Sadiq shirazi's official website, which is clearly very pro-tatbir. And they issue the names of same scholars as mentioned by brother dawud, and Ay Whaeed khurasani also take some of those names like Ay naeni, etc. So why one should believe your supposed ph.calls ,and reject visual proofs.

Everyone is concerned about their own marja's fatwas, and it's a well known fact, that marjas differ on this issue among themselves. We must respect both sides of ulema, but it doesn't mean the muqallids of one should start teaching others, 'oh i did it ,and left it' ,anything can be said online. Things which create hard feelings among Shia brethren should be avoided to be discussed. Doing, and not doing it doesn't effect someone's Aqeeda, so no point of discussing it.

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One brother above have given you one very good link with arguments in it's favor. As far as these scholars are concerned, you claim you have contacted their offices, and they deny it. Then what about the video of Ay Waheed Khurasani ,which you can easily find on youtube? And what about Ay, Muhammad shirazi, and Ay Sadiq shirazi's official website, which is clearly very pro-tatbir. And they issue the names of same scholars as mentioned by brother dawud, and Ay Whaeed khurasani also take some of those names like Ay naeni, etc. So why one should believe your supposed ph.calls ,and reject visual proofs.

Everyone is concerned about their own marja's fatwas, and it's a well known fact, that marjas differ on this issue among themselves. We must respect both sides of ulema, but it doesn't mean the muqallids of one should start teaching others, 'oh i did it ,and left it' ,anything can be said online. Things which create hard feelings among Shia brethren should be avoided to be discussed. Doing, and not doing it doesn't effect someone's Aqeeda, so no point of discussing it.

I would like to apologies if you feel offended by anything I have said, I do not in anyway inded to belittle anyones veiws but wish to spread light upon the visions of scholars on such matters.

Firstly thank you for responding with some names of scholars I can research upon. Secondly their numbers are available online, its very easy to pick up a phone and ask them. Thirdly Brother Dawud has mentioned names of scholars whom have infact opposed these actions and they are easily found on the respected scholars websites and books. I did not in anyway use my phone calls as proof to you, it was for my own satisfaction.. I wanted to understand more about what I practice so I took the initiative to phone. Anyone can do the same.

I totally agree with your statement sister, however when these issues are raised.. most DO NOT follow their scholars. This is something more personal which i feel is not appropriated in this discussion. I am not teaching anyone. I shared a link which gave the opinions of scholars. Never once have I enforced opinion on you. I have actually asked you for text in support. I have read the link that was posted and will simply say the hadith mentioned really have no relevance to this type of mourning.

This is where it gets personal sister so I do not wish to peruse this vision further. I would simply ask you if you are aware of the link between Imam hossayn as and the current world. Think about it..

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The ahadith provided in the link above by amatolah in post 14, are devoid of any references and grading. Does anybody have them?

As far as I remember, none of the ahadith are Sahih, the one about Sayyeda Zainab is from Bihar, the other one which speaks about Imam Zainul Abideen (a.s) is from a book called Dar'ul Salam (or Islam? I'm not sure) and the one about Owais al Qarni isn't from a Shia book I guess (I think it is weak even in Sunni books).

But I'd like to see your responses. I'm sitting on a fence with this one.

And Eid al Adha mabrouk to you all :)

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I see, this is the first time I have really been active.. I could delete it if it causes problems :)

There are two topics here which endless arguments; and every year we see a fair share of threads dedicated on them. They are the following:

1) A topic on: Matam/Zanjeer/Tatbir etc

2) A topic regarding Syed and non-Syed marriage

lol

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I will try it this Muharram in Karbala, InshaAllah.

Wah go for it bro and remember us in your prayers.

The ahadith provided in the link above by amatolah in post 14, are devoid of any references and grading. Does anybody have them?

As far as I remember, none of the ahadith are Sahih, the one about Sayyeda Zainab is from Bihar, the other one which speaks about Imam Zainul Abideen (a.s) is from a book called Dar'ul Salam (or Islam? I'm not sure) and the one about Owais al Qarni isn't from a Shia book I guess (I think it is weak even in Sunni books).

But I'd like to see your responses. I'm sitting on a fence with this one.

And Eid al Adha mabrouk to you all :)

It's a matter of aqeeda bro no history no taqleed no following nothing no compromise on aqeeda at all.

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There are two topics here which endless arguments; and every year we see a fair share of threads dedicated on them. They are the following:

1) A topic on: Matam/Zanjeer/Tatbir etc

2) A topic regarding Syed and non-Syed marriage

lol

lool at the second one ^^

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It's a matter of aqeeda bro no history no taqleed no following nothing no compromise on aqeeda at all.

Well brother, we should not simply brush things aside stating "it's aqeedah" or otherwise. Isn't Imamah aqeedah too? Don't we rely on ahadith to come to a fair conclusion on issues regarding Imamah?

When there are two or more opposite ideas in a discussion (which itself makes it controversial), and each group brings forth a hadith to support its point of view, we don't have an option but to rely on Sahih hadith. In an argument, I cannot use a non-Sahih hadith (like the ones quoted in the pro-tatbir file) to claim the legitimacy of a certain thing; and this is similar to what we see in the Shia-Sunni dialogue.

Like I mentioned earlier, I still really haven't concluded what's right and what's not and I'm still researching on this issue, so I'm open to listening what others have to say.

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If you wanna research then there's plenty of threads for you on SC, I have stated earlier that I can show you the muqallids of khamenei who do Kama zani no matter what khamenei has forbidden this, I am a follower of Sistani and we have asked the vakil of Sistani he said it's permissible and you will see a huge crowd practicing tatbir in my locality, even if Sistni would be against this then also we will do because Sistani or Khamenei or anyone is not going to sleep in my grave I have to be answerable of my deeds, my actions, bro every individual tatbiri knows his intention behind this it's only for the Husain as,his companions, his 6 months old infant, his Sakina s.a etc

Listen brother this practice is not gonna stop, whatever you conclude be it anti or pro then also it doesn't affect tatbir and you know that many people here just shout against this but whatelse can they do? Nothing they don't have that much guts to come and stop the practice where it's being done anyways research and take your own decision remember you are the only one who is going to answer for your deeds not any one else.

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