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Qa'im

After Jesus

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how about the story of the three prophets?

were they messengers of Jesus or prophets like him but like his is their leader ?

The story mentioned in Surat Yasin? That would be a great question. Does anyone have a written source for the story? I think Ibn Is`haq mentions it in his sira.

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Perhaps, the following hadith might help connect some lines inshallah ...

Al Kafi Vol 1

H 992, Ch. 91, h 1

A number of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn & 'Isa from ibn Mahbub

from Hisham ibn Salim from Yazid al-Kunasiyy who has said the following.

"I asked abu Ja'far (a.s.),

"Was Jesus at the time he spoke to people from the cradle a Divine authority over the people of his time?"

He said,

"At that time he was a prophet, a Divine authority over the

people but not a Mursal (Messenger). Have you not heard the words of Allah that say, "He

said, "I am the servant of God. He has given me the Book and has appointed me to be a

Prophet (19:30). He has blessed me no matter where I dwell, commanded me to worship Him

and pay the religious tax for as long as I live." (19:31)

I then said,

"Was he the Divine authority over Zackaria at the time that he was in the cradle?"

He said,

"At that time Jesus was a sign from Allah and a blessing to Mary (Maryam) when he spoke on her behalf. He was

a prophet and a Divine authority over all those who heard his words at that time. Thereafter

he did not speak until he was two years old. At Such time Zackaria was the Divine authority

of Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most gracious, over the people after the silence of Jesus.

Zackaria then died and his son Yahya (John) inherited the book and wisdom and he was a

small child. You can hear it in the words of Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most gracious, "We

commanded John, Zachariah's son), "O John, follow the guidance of the Lord with due

steadfastness. We gave knowledge and wisdom to John during his childhood." (19:12) When

Jesus became seven years he then spoke as a prophet and a messenger until Allah, the Most

Holy sent him inspiration. Thus, Jesus was the Divine authority over John and over all the

people. The earth is never left without the presence of a Divine authority over the people, O

abu Khalid, from the day Allah created Adam and settled him on earth."

I then said,

May Allah take my soul in service for your cause, "Did Ali (a.s.) possess Divine authority from

Allah and His Messenger over this nation (Muslims) during the life time of the Messenger of Allah?"

He said,

"Yes, but he kept silent and did not speak along with the Messenger of Allah.

At that time, during the lifetime of the Messenger of Allah, obedience was of the rights

of the Messenger of Allah over the ’Umma (nation) and over Ali (a.s.). Obedience on the

authority of Allah and the Messenger of Allah over the people as a whole was obligatory to

Ali (a.s.) after the death of the Messenger of Allah. Ali (a.s.) was a very wise and knowledgeable person."

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The story mentioned in Surat Yasin? That would be a great question. Does anyone have a written source for the story? I think Ibn Is`haq mentions it in his sira.

Yes that one. There are some narrations in the tafseer books that disagree about the identity of the three messengers but all agree that they were sent to Antakeyah city.

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Paul of Tarsus famously went to Antakiya (Antioch) during his ministry, and through a quick google search some seem to seculate that Paul was one of these prophets or representatives of Jesus. Though he is cursed in Shi`i hadiths even by name (Bulus) in some narrations I've seen; and is put alongside people like Pharaoh. If there were any prophets after Jesus like some of the narrations say, I doubt they would be the ones Christians recognize (Paul, John the Evangelist etc.) who seemed to have a clearly distorted view of the religion.

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(salam)

Excellent posts brother.

I wanted to add that based on my readings, the hypothesis that James the Just succeeded Jesus (as) is better supported from multiple perspectives, including the historical perspective.

An issue to keep on mind is that Muslim, Christian and Jewish communities follow the same path.

As we know, Harun (as), the relative of Moses (as) was his helper. Also, Ali (as) the relative of the prophet (pbuh) was the rightful successor of the prophet (pbuh). With these two examples, it would be more natural to accept that a relative of Jesus (as) must have been his helper and successor. The best and only candidate would be James the Just.

Lastly, it doesn't matter what unreliable hadiths claim. Many unreliable hadiths could've simply been written to copy the Christian orthodoxy of the time to appeal to Christian or for other reasons. We simply do not know who wrote these hadiths, when and why.

Just my 2 cents.

You may enjoy reading the book "How Jesus Became a Christian" :-)

(salam)

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Excellent quality of research mashaAllah.

Could this be part of the puzzle?

According to Eusebius of Caesarea (Eccl. Hist. 2.9.1-4), Herod Agrippa I in his first year of reign over the whole Judea (AD 41) killed James, son of Zebedee and arrested Peter, planning to kill him after the Passover. Peter was saved miraculously by angels, and escaped out of the realm of Herod (Acts 12:1-19). Peter went to Antioch, then through Asia Minor (visiting the churches in Pontus,Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, as mentioned in 1 Pet 1:1), and arrived in Rome in the second year of Emperor Claudius (AD 42; Eusebius, Eccl, Hist. 2.14.6). Somewhere on the way, Peter picked up Mark and took him as travel companion and interpreter. Mark the Evangelist wrote down the sermons of Peter, thus composing the Gospel according to Mark (Eccl. Hist. 15-16), before he left for Alexandria in the third year of Claudius (43).[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_the_Evangelist

(salam)

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(salam)

One more point, in your research don't rely much on the book of Acts. Either Barrie Wilson or Bart Ehrman says that the book of Acts is written by the same author as the gospel of Luke. The purpose of the book of Acts is to re-write the history to show that James and Peter and their Jewish Christian followers, at the end, got along with Paul's gentile followers.

It is a book that attempts to reconcile Paul's cult with Jesus's religion.

(salam)

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Academics generally split Acts into two main parts: the "We Document", which are the parts written by Luke as a first-hand account; and the rest which does not contain personal pronouns. The rest was probably written sometime in the 2nd century by another author or multiple authors. The book itself is biased and unreliable of course, but I'm just working with what we've got from that era and those early disputes.

Anyway, inshaAllah I'll do the final installment sometime this week. In the meantime you all can share your thoughts and theories.

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i posted something about Mark the Evangelist http://en.wikipedia...._the_Evangelist (ra) , however i don't think that he's a family close relative of Sayidna Issa (as). would be interesting to clarify the family tree and then see further inshaAllah

(wasalam)

He's the author of the Gospel of Mark. I don't think he nor Mark the Apostle were relatives of Jesus. The author was a Greek gentile writing in the 60s CE or later.

The issue of Jesus' relatives is disputed. Some say that Maryam later married (Joseph / Yusuf an-Najjar) and had other children, including James the Just. Others say that James was a relative, but not a biological sibling. Either way, it seems that from the above research, the most supported position in Shi`ism is that Peter was the successor of Jesus. Though his relatives could have still played a significant role in the early stages.

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yes ok, there is just a point, which is that Sayidna Issa (as) is from a holy family that extends much like the family of the children of Sayidna Ismail (as). It would be very positively exciting to find out who were the true follower representatives of this family. But now we can say that Peter (as) was the first family representative.

I wonder who the ones are today, and in the time between sayidna Issa (as) and sayidna Muhamad (pbuh)

Or were you witnesses when death approached Jacob, when he said to his sons, "What will you worship after me?" They said, "We will worship your God and the God of your fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac - one God. And we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."

2:113

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Wow, that's alot of reading.

A couple of comments;

"What was the Injeel? It is often translated as Gospel, which means "glad tidings" in Old English. It is derived from the Greek "Euangelian" which also means good news. Injeel doesn't seem to be an Arabic work, but it's possibly taken from Greek: Evangel. "

>This would make sense since we have evangelicals... i.e., evangelical Christians, today.

Jesus upheld the earlier law... He came to fulfill the law and did not do away with one jot or tittle of it.

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished." (the words of Jesus from the book of Matthew)

Re: "Paul and the Gentiles argued that it was abrogated and no such law applies. "

>You have to read what Jesus taught while He was with His disciples.

And you can refer to the Jewish teaching on the subject...

"Judaism maintains that the righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come. This has been the majority rule since the days of the Talmud.

Judaism generally recognizes that Christians and Moslems worship the same G-d that we do and those who follow the tenets of their religions can be considered righteous in the eyes of G-d.

Because of our acceptance of Torah, Jews have a special status in the eyes of G-d, but we lose that special status when we abandon Torah. Furthermore, the blessings that we received from G-d by accepting the Torah come with a high price: Jews have a greater responsibility than non-Jews. While non-Jews are only obligated to obey the seven commandments given to Noah, Jews are responsible for fulfilling the 613 mitzvot in the Torah, thus G-d will punish Jews for doing things that would not be a sin for non-Jews.

The Seven Laws of Noah

According to traditional Judaism, G-d gave Noah and his family seven commandments to observe when he saved them from the flood. These commandments, referred to as the Noahic or Noahide commandments, are inferred from Genesis Ch. 9, and are as follows: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal. These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come. "

(end of citation)

So Paul and the Apostle's did not change anything.

A question...

What does any of it matter? ... the successorship I mean.

Thanks,

CLynn

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Wow, that's alot of reading.

A couple of comments;

"What was the Injeel? It is often translated as Gospel, which means "glad tidings" in Old English. It is derived from the Greek "Euangelian" which also means good news. Injeel doesn't seem to be an Arabic work, but it's possibly taken from Greek: Evangel. "

>This would make sense since we have evangelicals... i.e., evangelical Christians, today.

Jesus upheld the earlier law... He came to fulfill the law and did not do away with one jot or tittle of it.

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished." (the words of Jesus from the book of Matthew)

Re: "Paul and the Gentiles argued that it was abrogated and no such law applies. "

>You have to read what Jesus taught while He was with His disciples.

And you can refer to the Jewish teaching on the subject...

"Judaism maintains that the righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come. This has been the majority rule since the days of the Talmud.

Judaism generally recognizes that Christians and Moslems worship the same G-d that we do and those who follow the tenets of their religions can be considered righteous in the eyes of G-d.

Because of our acceptance of Torah, Jews have a special status in the eyes of G-d, but we lose that special status when we abandon Torah. Furthermore, the blessings that we received from G-d by accepting the Torah come with a high price: Jews have a greater responsibility than non-Jews. While non-Jews are only obligated to obey the seven commandments given to Noah, Jews are responsible for fulfilling the 613 mitzvot in the Torah, thus G-d will punish Jews for doing things that would not be a sin for non-Jews.

The Seven Laws of Noah

According to traditional Judaism, G-d gave Noah and his family seven commandments to observe when he saved them from the flood. These commandments, referred to as the Noahic or Noahide commandments, are inferred from Genesis Ch. 9, and are as follows: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal. These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come. "

(end of citation)

So Paul and the Apostle's did not change anything.

A question...

What does any of it matter? ... the successorship I mean.

Thanks,

CLynn

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Since you are arguing that the special treatment to Jews is made up for by the extra responsibilities they have and the disadvantage that Gentiles have is made up for by lesser laws/responsibilities, if there was a Jew who follow all the 613 laws perfectly all his life and the Gentile followed all the 7 laws he had to with the same vigour, would they have the same place in Heaven?

Well I wasn't making any argument, only sharing that according to Judaism, the gentiles were not expected to follow the rules of Judaism, so the Christain teaching brings nothing different in that regard.

But to answer your question...

I don't know. I'm not God.

I believe in the things Jesus taught. What is in the Bible simply makes sense to me. Personally I follow a lot more than the 7 laws of Noah.

As long as the Jews believe what they believe I see that they are trying to live God's laws too. It has no effect on me, so I have no problem with their belief.

What God decides for the afterlife is in God's hands.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

You quoted 3:48 as saying, "teach...the Torah and the Gospel". Isn't this contradictory to what you had previously stated about Ulul Azm Prophets, in that they abrogate the teachings, book and Shar'ia of the last Ulul Azm?

Allah teaches His messengers the messages that preceded them, but that does not mean the abrogated messages are binding on their followers. So for example, Allah taught Jesus the Torah, but it is not upon his followers to follow the Torah since he brought a new message to them. The exact details of that message, however, are unknown.

-

Modern Jews believe that the gentiles only need to follow the very basic Noahide laws, while the Mosaic laws are binding on the Children of Israel. Though historically, this was not the only opinion that existed in Judaism. I think the notion is a Rabbinical invention, as there were gentile converts to Judaism, who adopted the laws and were accepted into the community. From an Islamic perspective, Moses' laws were binding on all people that knew about it and not just the Jews. After all, there were Egyptians that believed in Moses as well.

Christians too believe that, theoretically, ethnic Jews who accept Christianity are not required to fulfill the Mosaic laws. The Shi`i hadiths agree with this, but argue that Jesus brought his own set of laws with him that the people needed to follow. The Qur'an notes that the Law of `Isa had alleviated some of the tough Mosaic laws, but I think the core of the two would have been more or less the same.

I'm glad the Christian members are reading and contributing, just note that my main posts here are dealing with mostly Islamic resources, rather than taking an interfaith stance.

A question...

What does any of it matter? ... the successorship I mean.

It's by no means a pivotal issue, but succession to prophets is something Shi`i Muslims are generally interested in.

Edited by Qa'im

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Allah teaches His messengers the messages that preceded them, but that does not mean the abrogated messages are binding on their followers. So for example, Allah taught Jesus the Torah, but it is not upon his followers to follow the Torah since he brought a new message to them. The exact details of that message, however, are unknown.

-

Modern Jews believe that the gentiles only need to follow the very basic Noahide laws, while the Mosaic laws are binding on the Children of Israel. Though historically, this was not the only opinion that existed in Judaism. I think the notion is a Rabbinical invention, as there were gentile converts to Judaism, who adopted the laws and were accepted into the community. From an Islamic perspective, Moses' laws were binding on all people that knew about it and not just the Jews. After all, there were Egyptians that believed in Moses as well.

Christians too believe that, theoretically, ethnic Jews who accept Christianity are not required to fulfill the Mosaic laws. The Shi`i hadiths agree with this, but argue that Jesus brought his own set of laws with him that the people needed to follow. The Qur'an notes that the Law of `Isa had alleviated some of the tough Mosaic laws, but I think the core of the two would have been more or less the same.

I'm glad the Christian members are reading and contributing, just note that my main posts here are dealing with mostly Islamic resources, rather than taking an interfaith stance.

Thanks for the clarification. After reading the explanation, I just realised that I misread the Verse! :P I thought it was saying that Jesus (as) taught the Torah, while the verse actually says that Allah taught Jesus (as) the Torah.

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"as there were gentile converts to Judaism, who adopted the laws and were accepted into the community. "

I agree... to join the Jewish community... to become a Jew you would have to be subject to the same laws as the Jews.

But for those not becoming Jewish(i.e., gentiles) for those who nevertheless choose to belong to the one God, following the teaching of Jesus, the Jewish laws do not apply... even Jesus made this point.

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The King James Bible is The Torah & The Injil because Ar Rahmane Rahim would not command something impossible to do.

Inshallah Al-Jafr-White is The King James Bible.

Inshallah Al-Jafr-Red is Al-Quran.

Inshallah Ali's Gate has to be ShiaChat.

Inshallah Al-Jamia has to be The Internet, because it has to be Muhammad's City, Alhamdolelah.

The only thing I can't figure out is Lady Fatimah's Book. I scratch my head and throw my arms in the air on this one. Maybe a Lady would know. I couldn't say.

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Part 3: Reconciliation of Sunni and Shi`i views

In the last two parts, we looked at some various possibilities for the events that occurred after Jesus. We've so far established:

1. There is always a hujja, even in the 5-century fetra

2. There were no messengers (law-bringers) between Jesus and Muhammad (pbuh)

3. According to Shi`i tradition, Sham`un as-Safa was the most likely successor to Jesus, but this is not the only possibility - as other hawariyyun played a pivotal role

4. There was an occultation or occultations during half of the five centuries.

5. `Isa brought a new Law that was binding on all people that knew about it

So why did the Sunnis, and some obscure Shi`i hadiths, nickname this period as the fetra (epoch)? Why do the Sunnis have traditions about people being born into the fetra receiving a different type of judgment, if there were divine guides in this period?

If we resort to our hadiths, the word fetra was used once to refer to the major occultation of the twelfth Imam:

ÍÏËäÇ ÌÚÝÑ Èä Úáí Èä ÇáÍÓä Èä Úáí Èä ÚÈÏÇááå Èä ÇáãÛíÑÉ ÇáßæÝí ÑÖí Çááå Úäå ÞÇá: ÍÏËäí ÌÏí ÇáÍÓä Èä Úáì¡ Úä ÇáÚÈÇÓ Èä ÚÇãÑ ÇáÞÕÈÇäí¡ Úä ÚãÑ Èä ÃÈÇä ÇáßáÈí¡ Úä ÃÈÇä Èä ÊÛáÈ ÞÇá: ÞÇá áí ÃÈæÚÈÏÇááå Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã: íÃÊí Úáì ÇáäÇÓ ÒãÇä íÕíÈåã Ýíå ÓÈØÉ íÃÑÒ ÇáÚáã ÝíåÇ Èíä ÇáãÓÌÏíä ßãÇ ÊÃÑÒ ÇáÍíÉ Ýí ÌÍÑåÇ¡ íÚäí Èíä ãßÉ æÇáãÏíäÉ¡ ÝÈíäÇåã ßÐáß ÅÐÇ ÃØáÚ Çááå ÚÒæÌá áåã äÌãåã¡ ÞÇá: ÞáÊ: æãÇ ÇáÓÈØÉ¿ ÞÇá: ÇáÝÊÑÉ æÇáÛíÈÉ áÇãÇãßã¡ ÞÇá: ÞáÊ: ÝßíÝ äÕäÚ ÝíãÇ Èíä Ðáß¿ ÝÞÇá: ßæäæÇ Úáì ãÇ ÃäÊã Úáíå ÍÊì íØáÚ Çááå áßã äÌãßã.

Ja`far b. `Ali b. al-Hasan b. `Ali b. `Abdillah b. al-Mughiyra al-Kufi ÑÖí Çááå Úäå narrated. He said: My grandfather al-Hasan b. `Ali narrated from al-`Abbas b. `Amer al-Qasbani from `Umar b. Aban al-Kalbi from Aban b. Taghlib.

He said: Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã said to me: There will come a time where an absence will cause the people to suffer. At that time, knowledge will recede between the Two Mosques just as a snake enters its hole – meaning, Mecca and Medina. At that time, Allah will bring out their star for their guidance. I asked: And what is the absence? He said: It is the period (fetra) and the occultation of your Imam. He said: I said to him: What shall we do in such circumstances? He replied: Remain steadfast on what you are upon until Allah brings out your star. (Kamal ad-Deen)

(majhool kal-sahih – Teacher of Saduq) (ãä ãÔÇíÎ ÇáÕÏæÞ - ãÌåæá ßÇáÕÍíÍ)

Hence, it is possible that the Prophet (pbuh) referred to a fetra where there were no Messengers or apparent prophets; where there was no visible guide and a state of confusion. Looking at Christian history, there was definitely much confusion, and looking for a divine authority amidst it is no easy task. There were challenges on the issues relating to the shari`a in the first century, institutional and theological schisms in the second and third century, as well as many varying sects and new religions the upheld reverence of `Isa. Traditional Christianity accepted the Old and New Testaments; the trinity and equality of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and it was adopted as the official religion of Rome in 325 CE. Other large mainstream Western sects included the followers of Arius, who believed the Father was above Jesus. Groups like the Ebionites believed that Jewish Law was still binding on the followers of Jesus; they rejected the atonement of sin, some rejected the virgin birth, and they all had seen Jesus as a messenger of God - they had their own Book. The Nazarenes were like the Ebionites, but with more common areas with Traditional Christianity. The Gnostics followed a very Sufi-esque Christianity; they had their own books and believed that knowledge was the key to salvation. The Elchasites and Manichaeans accepted new prophets after Jesus (al-Hasih and Mani).

We have a hadith that I will present below, which says that the people who are not exposed to the message of a Hidden or Silent Imam are not judged by it:

ÇÈä ÃÈí ÚãíÑ¡ Úä Ìãíá Èä ÏÑÇÌ¡ Úä ÒÑÇÑÉ¡ Úä ÌÚÝÑ Èä ãÍãÏ ÚáíåãÇ ÇáÓáÇã Ãäå ÞÇá: ÍÞíÞ Úáì Çááå Ãä íÏÎá ÇáÖáÇá ÇáÌäÉ. ÝÞÇá ÒÑÇÑÉ: ßíÝ Ðáß ÌÚáÊ ÝÏÇß ¿. ÞÇá: íãæÊ ÇáäÇØÞ æáÇ íäØÞ ÇáÕÇãÊ¡ ÝíãæÊ ÇáãÑÁ ÈíäåãÇ ÝíÏÎáå Çááå ÇáÌäÉ.

ibn Abi `Umayr from Jameel b. Daraaj from Zurara from Ja`far b. MuhammadÚáíåãÇ ÇáÓáÇã that he said:

It is the right upon Allah that He admits the misguided into Paradise. So he said: How is it that, may I be your ransom? He said: The Speaker will die, and the Silent will not speak, and the person between them will die, so Allah will admit him into Paradise. (Tusi’s Ghayba)

The chain of the above hadith is sahih, but the tariq to Fadl b. Shadhan's book is disputed. Nonetheless, it addresses something all Muslims believe - God does not hold people accountable if they had not received His message.

Hence, we can reconsile the Sunni and Shi`i views on the topic of the fetra by this explanation.

The next part will be the last, and it will be discussing the Prophet's ancestors.

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Bro Qa'im,

A very interesting thread and thank you for your hard efforts. May Allah (swt) rewards you with the best of rewards.

I have some comments regarding your postings:

1. About Fetra

- It's clear from the al-Qur'an that there is no messenger (rasul) between Prophet `Isa (as) and Prophet Muhammad (saww). From this verse alone, we can't determine whether there was any prophet or imam between this period. But if we combine this with the sahih hadith saying there's always an `alim in Earth, we can say that there's a big possibility of such existence in that period. What is interesting here is the hadith used the word "`alim", which probably indicated that it didn't have to be an infallible (please correct me if I'm wrong).

- Nevertheless, we must remember something: there's no universal message for all mankind prior to Prophet Muhammad (saww). Therefore, if such existence happened, then they were local prophets or local aimmah. Therefore, the hadith saying there can't be 2 imams on earth doesn't make any sense, unless we put it in the context that this hadith is about the period after Prophet Muhammad (saww). Of course, this hadith would also contradict the Jewish's principle of dual leadership of leader-priest (kohen) which can also be the harmonization of the Shim'on - Ya`aqov primacy debate (i.e. Shim'on = leader, Ya`aqov = kohen)

2. About Laws After Prophet `Isa (as)

- The general consensus is that Prophet `Isa (as) was sent to Children of Yishrael, so you should put solid proofs before stating that Prophet `Isa (as) was sent to all mankind. In absence of that, we could only conclude that even though he was a part of Ulul `Azmi, his mission was not universal.

- Unless you were trying to say exactly the same as the Jewish laws, i.e. that the Jewish laws were applicable to Children of Yishrael only and anyone

else were only bound by the 7 Noahide laws. In other words, conversion of a gentile to Judaism require the total observance of the mitzvot. In this regard, Paul contradicted the Jewish laws which made him contradicted Ya`aqov and Shim'on Kefa, and subsequently Prophet `Isa (as) since what Prophet `Isa (as) taught were basically the Jewish laws. History did repeat itself though with the "ijtihad" of the second Caliph :)

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My understanding is that the Shi`a view is that the ulil `azm messengers (Nuh, Ibrahim, Musa, `Isa, Muhammad) are sent for all mankind. Sunnis believe the message of Muhammad (pbuh) was the only universal one, but we have hadiths that indicate that all the prophets after Ibrahim (no mention of location) took his shari`a until Musa came. This makes sense - Ibrahim was an Iraqi, but was not just sent to his people, rather he also went to Palestine and Mecca, and built masajid in those places. Nuh's message also seemed to have been for all people and not just one nation. The same would apply to `Isa - while he was physically sent to Bani Israel just as Muhammad (pbuh) was sent to the Arabs, his message would be binding on all divine representatives after him.

See the hadith mentioned here, which does specifically mention prophets after `Isa taking up his shari`a: http://www.revivingalislam.com/2012/07/ulul-azm.html

From the primary sources we have, not only was gentile conversion allowed, it was recommended. Sham`un as-Safa by all accounts primarily preached the message of `Isa to non-Jews. James the Just, while remaining in Jerusalem, supported that effort - so long that the Gentiles followed some laws. The ikhtilaf between Christians however was, did the Gentiles need to convert to Judaism before believing in Jesus? Since `Isa's message abrogated the Torah (Surat al-Ma'ida describes how some old laws were lifted), then conversion to Judaism would be unnecessary. However, this does not mean that Paul's version of the new covenant was the correct interpretation. His message is absent of any divine law.

You mentioned the Noahide laws. While I do believe there were Noahide laws, I believe Musa's message abrogated them for all people. The Talmud and Rabbinical Judaism supports the idea of preaching the Noahide laws to gentiles. But pre-Rabbinical Judaism probably emphasized full conversion to Judaism (or Musa's message) for gentiles and not just adoption of the basic Noahide laws. What we see as the Noahide laws was probably a Rabbinical invention or re-interpretation; which eased the propagation of religion. They'd be able to allow gentiles to live their unclean and godless lifestyles and accept the core principles of the religion; rather than push for a [much harder] full lifestyle change.

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Qaim, this is one of my favorite threads, everyone is so polite and informative, and forward looking, and I look forward to more of your posts.

I also side with you about James the Just, and would like to contribute the following if it is useful to this thread:

1. Jesus said, "Wherever you have come from, go to James the Just, for whom heaven and earth came to be."

The only way heaven and earth came to be for James the Just is if James is from Jesus as Jesus is from James, yani, of those among the Righteous.

2. Peter denied Jesus three times just before his crucifixion.

My understanding is there is no indication that James ever betrayed Jesus, and Jesus always made positive remarks regarding him.

3. There are more parallels between Imam Ali (A.S.) and James the Apostle.

1. (Ali) James was not the oldest Apostle, as Ali was not the oldest companion.

2. (Hasan) James was not recognized as the Imam, as Ali was not recognized as the Imam.

3. (Husayn) James was the first Apostle to be Martyred, as Ali was the first in Many things.

4. James worked on key christian laws as circumcision, fasting, praying, offerings, as did Ali.

5. Because of these laws, we are able to see the similarities with Islam, as Ali united Shia and Sunni.

6. The Epistle of James is known to be closest to the Sunnah of Jesus, as Ali's sayings were to Muhammad's.

7. Jesus recommended James, as Muhammad recommended Ali.

Allah indicated that for every life of Israel, there would be one similar of Ismael.

So Inshallah, James is closest to Ali, as Muhammad is closest to Isa.

Allah is Most Wise, Most Exalted.

Edited by JHK

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My understanding is that the Shi`a view is that the ulil `azm messengers (Nuh, Ibrahim, Musa, `Isa, Muhammad) are sent for all mankind. Sunnis believe the message of Muhammad (pbuh) was the only universal one, but we have hadiths that indicate that all the prophets after Ibrahim (no mention of location) took his shari`a until Musa came. This makes sense - Ibrahim was an Iraqi, but was not just sent to his people, rather he also went to Palestine and Mecca, and built masajid in those places. Nuh's message also seemed to have been for all people and not just one nation. The same would apply to `Isa - while he was physically sent to Bani Israel just as Muhammad (pbuh) was sent to the Arabs, his message would be binding on all divine representatives after him.

There are several difficulties in this view:

1. Abraham never expanded his mission outside the Middle East, nor had he ordered his sons or followers to do so.

2. While there were a lot of prophets from the line of Prophet Yishaq, such as Ya`aqob, Yosef, Mosheh, Dawid, Shlomoh, we never saw that they tried to convey their messages to the offspring of Ishmael, let alone the rest of the world

3. If `Isa were for all mankind, then we would have seen in our texts Prophet Muhammad (saww) aligning himself more to him. Instead, we find more connection of him (saww) to Abraham instead, as it was called the "hanif". This implied that the scope of message of Abraham was larger than `Isa, again showed that `Isa was not for all mankind as even there was no proof (as stated in no. 1) that Abraham was sent to people outside the Middle East.

From the primary sources we have, not only was gentile conversion allowed, it was recommended. Sham`un as-Safa by all accounts primarily preached the message of `Isa to non-Jews. James the Just, while remaining in Jerusalem, supported that effort - so long that the Gentiles followed some laws. The ikhtilaf between Christians however was, did the Gentiles need to convert to Judaism before believing in Jesus? Since `Isa's message abrogated the Torah (Surat al-Ma'ida describes how some old laws were lifted), then conversion to Judaism would be unnecessary. However, this does not mean that Paul's version of the new covenant was the correct interpretation. His message is absent of any divine law.

Could you please elaborate more on the primary sources that you mentioned which indicated gentile conversion were recommended?

Anyway, even if it's recommended, then it also showed that the message of `Isa was primarily for the Children of Yishrael, instead to all mankind.

You mentioned the Noahide laws. While I do believe there were Noahide laws, I believe Musa's message abrogated them for all people. The Talmud and Rabbinical Judaism supports the idea of preaching the Noahide laws to gentiles. But pre-Rabbinical Judaism probably emphasized full conversion to Judaism (or Musa's message) for gentiles and not just adoption of the basic Noahide laws. What we see as the Noahide laws was probably a Rabbinical invention or re-interpretation; which eased the propagation of religion. They'd be able to allow gentiles to live their unclean and godless lifestyles and accept the core principles of the religion; rather than push for a [much harder] full lifestyle change.

That's probable, but I don't think "godless" is correct since Noahide laws clearly stated prohibition of idolatry (that's why, some Jewish scholars didn't even consider Christianity with its Trinity in line with the Noahide laws). And I think "unclean-er" is the more accurate term since there are some laws governing one's actions, e.g. prohibition of sexual immorality, prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal when it's still alive.

Sadly we would never know the truth about gentile's conversion since the materials were lost and the current ones are quite distorted.

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1. According to The Quran, Allah repeatedly mentioned Moses and all that he did for Israel, as well as Dhul Qarnayn, a man of Good Standing and Closeness to Allah, who served two Nations of Peoples, one to the West and one to the East. For the sake of his people Moses, along with Muhammad, pleaded with Allah, to reduce the number of enjoined prayers from 50, to 5 per day, presumably the amount us Muslims are prescribed. So Alhamdolelah for Moses and Muhammad, and Alhamdolelah for Allah's Mercy. So Surely We are Amongst the Lost Tribes and We are Their Bros, and They are Our Bros, just as Jacob was Ismail's Bro, and Ismail was Jacob's Bro.

2.According to The Torah and Injil, both Commanded to be read by Our Commander, and undoubtedly Provided by Our Provider, Israelites are a People Dear to Our Allah, led out of slavery, and promised a Great Land. They used to be slaves, but they are undoubtedly Lost Tribes today.

3. Muhammad loved praying, Isa prayed while walking, and Moses always prayed for the benefit for his people. They didn't just do it 5 times a day, they did it all the time, constantly. Allah, Most Wise, said an hour of Good Thinking is more worthy than a lifetime of prayers. Ali, Most Wise, said a secret prayer is 70,000 times more worthy than an open prayer. Muhammad said to drop what you are doing and run to do open prayers with your Bros every week. Some dudes tried to force Muhammad to do prayers together and Muhammad told them to go home and do it by themselves. Prayer should be regular, constant, well thought out, and for the sake of others. Private Thinking for the well being of others is 70,000 x 70,000 times more than open praying.

3. Jesus Commanded those of them to go the way of The Lost Tribes, and promised them Salvation should they put their trust in him, and Loved Allah as much as they could, and Loved Mankind as much as they could, and backed their Words with Works, with Actions. Our Words Speak The Quran and Sunnah, But We Must Think Constantly, and Back Them with Actions. Our actions come about through the Power of The Almighty, and they our driven by our ability to Think, Reason, and Show Compassion and Mercy.

4. We are not thinking, reasoning, showing compassion nor mercy, if we ignore the plea of a Muslim, walk by the homeless, or are ignorant about The Lost Tribes of Israel. Besides they are our Bros, and we are of them as they are of us, so we should run to do prayers with our Bros. Isa will not come until we are with our Bros.

Tribes of Israel: Camp, Fitna, Fate


  1. Reuben “the Unruly”: South Camp of Reuben House of Joseph Lost Tribe

  2. Simeon “the Violent”: South Camp of Reuben House of David Judah or Lost Tribe

  3. Levi “the Priestly”: Central Camp of Levi House of David Judah

  4. Judah “the Ruler”: East Camp of Judah House of David Judah or Lost Tribe

  5. Issachar “the Landfarer”: East Camp of Judah House of Joseph Lost Tribe

  6. Zebulun “the Seafarer”: East Camp of Judah House of Joseph Lost Tribe

  7. Dan “the Viper” North Camp of Ephraim House of Joseph Lost Tribe

  8. Naphtali “the Beautiful” North Camp of Ephraim House of Joseph Lost Tribe

  9. Gad “the Attacked” South Camp of Reuben House of Joseph Lost Tribe

  10. Asher “the Foodie” North Camp of Ephraim House of Joseph Lost Tribe

  11. Joseph “the Wild”


    1. Ephraim the Wild West Camp of Ephraim House of Joseph Lost Tribe

    2. Manasseh the Wild West Camp of Ephraim House of Joseph Lost Tribe

    3. Benjamin “the Wolf” West Camp of Ephraim House of David Judah


      Documented Claimants:
      Of Judah ()
      Of Lost Tribes (Yoruba, Lemba, Ghana, Persian Jews, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Schythian/Cimmeran/Anglo/Celt, Kurd, Japan)
      Of Levi: (China (Kaifeng, Hui-Hui, Ai, Shi, Gao, Jin, Li, Zhang, and Zhao, Lemba, Samaritan) (Moses, and Aaron and his sons) Kohath-Holy Things, Eleazer-Offerings, Gershonite-Tabernacle)
      Of Issachar (Bucharian/Persian/Uzbek/Tajik/Russian)
      Of Zebulun (Nigeria)
      Of Dan (Ethiopia, Irish/Celt)
      Of Napthali (Nigeria, Persian/Bucharian/Uzbek/Tajik/Russian)
      Of Gad (Nigeria)
      Of Joseph (Samaritans, Nigeria
      Of Ephraim (India, Pakistan, Afghanistan)
      Of Manasseh (India, China, South Asia, Native America)
      Major Y-DNA haplogroups
      Y─ DNA Adam
      Haplogroup A0
      Haplogroup A1 BT
      Haplogroup B CT DE
      Haplogroup D
      Haplogroup E CF
      Haplogroup C Haplogroup F
      Haplogroups F1-F4
      Haplogroup G
      Haplogroup H IJK Haplogroup IJ
      Haplogroup I
      Haplogroup J Haplogroup K
      K* LT
      Haplogroup L
      Haplogroup T MNOPS
      Haplogroups K1-K4
      Haplogroup M Haplogroup NO
      Haplogroup N
      Haplogroup O Haplogroup P
      Haplogroup Q
      Haplogroup R
      Haplogroup S

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(salam)

The more I read about the events after Jesus, it becomes more clear that it was James, who was selected to lead the Jesus Movement, and not Peter, and certainly not Paul.

It was James, who responded to Paul's heresy. It was James, who was the leader of the Jerusalem church. It was James, who Peter referred to and sought answers from.

Furthermore, from an Islamic perspective, we have Abraham and Lot, who were family, Moses and Aaron, Muhammad and Ali, Jacob and Joseph, Abraham and Isaac, David and Solomon and more...

Can you think of a successor or a helper of a prophet, according to our traditions, who was not a relative?

The status of James after Jesus, James' teachings and his position, all indicate that it was James, who was to be followed after Jesus, and who was selected by Jesus.

From this perspective, it really does not matter that weak traditions in our books point to Peter.

These weak narrators, could've simply been following the official Christian position of their time, which they may have read in the the bible.

The bible as we have today was canonized in 325 AD. Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) arrived centuries later.

Thus, Roman Catholicism was already well-established and numerous so-called heretics were already removed and dismissed by the Catholics.

Therefore, the prevalent view that the Muslims would've encountered would've been that Peter succeeded Jesus. However, the prevalent view is not necessarily the correct view.

This would explain why there are many weak traditions in our books that point to Peter.

(salam)

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SoRoUsh, I wouldn't jump into conclusion if I were you. We only know that nubuwwah and imamah were present throughout human history, but we don't know their details.

For all we know, regarding the succession of 'Isa (as), there are several possibilities:

a. The successor was Shimon Kefa

b. The successor was Ya'akob (James)

c. Both are the successors following the Jewish dual leadership of leader-priest (Kohen): Shimon=leader & Ya'akob=kohen. Previously, there were other pairs too, such as Mosheh (Musa)=leader & Aharon (Harun)=kohen, Yehoshua' ben Nun (Yusha' bin Nun)=leader & El'azar=kohen

Since we have ahadith supporting option a, we need to ensure their weaknesses first before dismissing them altogether. Anyway, without clear texts on this, probably the best option for us is accepting that we don't know the answer and we are open to the possibilities.

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