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Enaya

Sunni - Shi'a Converts

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Oh yes, yes, "mistakes". I am convinced by the excuse and won't ask how you know. Now lets all become Deobundis and Salafis en mass and embrace a religion of intense burning hatred, lame excuses, murder sprees and soulless repetitions never knowing the point of it all or what we're doing until its too late.

If "sahih" hadiths or "sahih" books were actually true, then all the muhadithin, mullahs and so-called "Muslims" would have a tongue with power that God would never reject their supplications. Yet I see millions of people gather or pray alone through the years for the nation and ummah and not a single of their prayer is accepted rather circumstances are degenerated even more. None of the auliya / saints all the real representatives of Haqq who are the true spreaders of Islam in the history of subcontinent and elsewhere ever read any ahadith or done any "hadith science" or books or research, most couldn't even read or write, yet their prayers were never turned down. And guess which personality after the Prophet they all unanimously revere, love and follow? ALI (as). So can you tell me, why is there such a comprehensive contrast?

Edited by Darth Vader

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If you don't like the science of hadith, don't open the books of hadith, just for what suits you and what doesn't suit you. Take care!

"Hadith science" is just a lame excuse made up by people to create a diversion and throw sand in the eyes of the people, to avoid analyzing history and drawing conclusions from it.

Most funnily, the heroes of those who are most devoted to "Hadith science" are the ones who most furioiusly prevented hadith from being written down, and were the foremost promoters of the idea: "The Book of Allah is sufficient for us"

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Who was Umm Kulthum the wife of Umar?

Fact 1

------

* Sunni Historical evidence shows that the marriage of Umm Kulthum and Umar

took place in the year 17 Hijri when Umm Kulthum was 5 or 4 years of age.

This would put her date of birth to 12 or 13 Hijri.

Sunni references :

- History of Abul Fida, vol I p 171

- al Farooq by Shibli Numani, vol II p 539

* Historical evidences show that Hazrat Fatima ( May Allah bless her )

passed away 6 month after the demise of his father, and thus her date of

death was in the year 11 Hijri, and that Umm Kulthum were born in the

year 9 Hijri.

Sunni reference: Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English Version, Tardition 5.

546

Shia reference: Anwarul Hussania, v3, p39

Then how is it possible for Umm Kulthum to be born after the death of

Hazrat Fatima (as) if the Sunnis claim that she was married to Omar in the

year 17 Hijri at an age of 4 or 5 years, that would put the date of birth

as 12 or 13 Hijri, which is long after the death of her mother?!

Fact 2

------

* Sunni historical evidence shows that Umm Kulthum (the wife of Umar) died

before 50 Hijri, since Imam Hasan (as), Abdullah ibn Umar and Sa'ad bin

Abi Waqs offered the funeral prayers.

Also it is worthy to note that Imam

Hasan (as) was martyred in the year 50 Hijri.

Sunni references:

- Al Istiab by Ibn Abdul Barr Volume 2 page 795

- Tareekhe Khamees vol II p 318

- History of al-Tabri vol 12 p 15

But then other references show that Hazrat Umm Kulthum ( Blessings on her,

the daughter of Imam Ali and Fatima Az Zahra ) were present in Kerballa

during the year 61 Hijri.

Long after the incident of Kerballa Hazrat Zaineb

binte Ali ( blessings on her ) died, then it was that Hazrat Abdullah bin

Jafer Tayyar were married to Hazrat Umm Kulthum binte Ali ( blessings on

her ).

There is no contradiction to the fact that before Umm Kulthum binte Ali (

blessings on her ), Hazrat Zaineb ( blessings on her ) were married to

Abdullah bin Jafer ( blessings on him ).

Also it is true that till the year

61 Hijri ( incident of Kerballa ) Hazrat Zaineb were alive, and that Umm

Kulthum binte Ali were married after the year 61 Hijri to Hazrat Abdullah

bin Jafer.

But where does the contradiction lie ? With respect to the first

references, the lady married to Omar by the name Umm Kulthum died in the

year before 50 Hijri, as Imam Hasan ( as ) had offered her funeral prayers.

This leaves us to believe that the Umm Kulthum married to Omar were infact

some other lady and NOT the daughter of Imam Ali (as).

Sunni references :

- Roza tul Ihbab Volume 3 page 585

- Al Bidayah wa al-Nihayah

- Tareekhe Khamees Volume 3 page 318

Fact 3

------

* The Sunni scholar Ibn Qutaybah in his book " al Maarif " mentioned that

all the daughters of Imam Ali(as) were married to the sons of Aqeel and

Abbas with a few exceptions, but he did NOT mention the claim that Umm

Kulthum (May Allah bless her) were married to Omar.

The exceptions were

for Ummul Hasan binte Saeed and Fatima.

Sunni reference: al-Maarif, Ibn Qutaybah, p 80

For those who claim that such marriage happened; kindly answer the

following questions

- What was the age for Omar at the time of the marriage ?

- When Omar died what was the age of Umm Kulthum ?

- Could you briefly state the names of the wives of Omar?

- Could you assert to the truthfulness of the character of the

person who narrated this story ? ( I am talking about Zubair

bin Bakar ) ?

- Do you know how many children were born of Umm Kulthum

with the marriage to Omar ?

Who was this Umm Kulthum then ?

--------------------------------

It would be appropriate to mention the other wives of Omar at this

juncture, not only during his pagan days but also after embracing Islam.

His first wife was Zainab sister of Uthman b.

Mazun.

His second wife

was Qariba, daughter of Ibn Umait ul Makzami, and sister of the Holy

Prophet's ( saw ) wife Umm Salma ( May Allah be pleased with her ).

She was divorced in 6 A.

H after the conclusion of the Truce of

Hudaibiya.

His third wife was Malaika, daughter of Jarul al Khuzai,

who was also called Umm Kulthum, also she did not embrace Islam and

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

was divorced in 6 A.

H.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

On arrival at Medinah he married Jamila, daughter of Asim b.

Thabit

who was high placed Ansari and had fought at Badr.

Jamila first name

was Asia which the Holy Prophet ( saw ) changed to Jamila on her

conversion to Islam.

Omar divorcd her also for some unknown reason.

Omar also had other wives namely, Umm Hakim, daughter of al Harith b.

Hisham al Makhzumi, Fukhia Yamania and Atika, daughter of Zaid b.

Amr

b.

Nafil.

Sunni reference : Al Faruq - Volume II by Shibli Numani English Translation

Pages 340 --> 343 Chapter XIX ( His Family )

It is worthy to note that the author, Shibli Numani has easily ignored the

daughter of the first Caliph, Abu Bakr.

This would explain that truly Umm

Kulthum who was married to Omar was not the daughter of Imam Ali, as the

correct historical references show, but the daughter of Abu Bakr.

It is also worthy to mention the footnotes that have been included when

Shibli Numani claims about the marriage of Umm Kulthum binte Ali ( May

Allah be well pleased with her ) in the above chapter.

Here I quote it word

by word

.

.

.

There was another Umm Kulthum who had been his wife but

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Historians make a clear distinction between the two .

.

.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Now as a student of History I would like to pose the following questions:

- Who is this other Umm Kulthum that has been mentioned

in the historical references ?

- Is she the same Umm Kulthum that was divorced ( Malaika

the third wife ) in 6 A.

H ?

- We also know that there were ' two ' Umm Kulthum's as

Shibli Numani writes above, correct ?

- Or is she the same Umm Kulthum that is the daughter of

Abu Bakr ? If yes then why doesn't the author point out

so ? What is the clear distinction then ?

Here is the answer by from the historical documents:

After the death of Abu Bakr a daughter was born to him that was named Umm

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Kulthum.

Please refer to the following Sunni references to confirm this

^^^^^^^

fact.

Sunni references:

- History of al-Tabari Volume 3 page 50, Printed in Egypt

- Tareekhe Kamil Volume 3 page 121, Printed in Egypt

- Tareekhe Khamees Volume 2 page 267, Printed in Egypt

- Al-Isaba, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Volume 3 page 27

Please also do bear in mind that Abu Bakr died in the year 13 A.

H as

mentioned in the following Sunni book of reference

- History of the Caliphs by Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti, page 551

Translated into English by Major H.

S.

Barrett

This would imply that the original claim made by the first references I

gave for the age of Umm Kulthum at the time of marriage of 4 or 5 years

would stand correct.

Since for Umm Kulthum binte Abu Bakr to be born in 13

A.

H and married in 17 A.

H would give her an age of 4 years.

Since Aisha was the elder sister of Umm Kulthum binte Abu Bakr, for this

reason Omar had sent for Umm Kulthum hand's to Aisha, and Aisha had

accepted this.

Please refer to the following Sunni references

- Tareekhe Khamees Volume 2 page 267, Printed in Egypt

- Tareekhe Kamil Volume 3 page 21, Printed in Egypt

- Al Istiab by Ibn Abdul Barr Volume 2 page 795

Printed in Hyderabad Deccan

This leaves us no doubt to believe that Umm Kulthum who was the daughter of

Abu Bakr was married to Omar and not Umm Kulthum the daugher of Imam Ali

(as) !!!

[ Apart from what I have disclosed above, there are many more discrepancies

for the claim that Umm Kulthum ( May Allah be well pleased with her ) were

married to Omar.

I have not included them for the sake of brevity.

]

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Brother! Do you believe that there was Umme Khulthum binte Abu Bakr who was married to Umar?

I don't think there is any sahih narration that Umm Kulthum bint Abu Bakr was married to Umar (ra).

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Read this by brother Hannibal Lecter

http://www.shiachat....er-of-abu-bakr/

What are your thoughts??

He didn't bring any sahih narration. He brought the saying of Imam Nawawi, I had read it earlier, some Shia fellow had posted it, I would simply say regarding it that sometimes the great scholars also err. It is not proven by any hadith that she was the daughter of Abu Bakr. If you believe me, we have to slaughter the ilm and aqal for accepting that she was the daughter of Abu Bakr and not the daughter of Ali. There are massive amount of narrations and sayings of ulama from both sects which prove she was the daughter of Ali. if we have to reject all the evidences for the weakest argument which doesn't contain a single sahih hadith (the errors in one or two books don't count) than every established fact can be questioned, even though it has a huge amount of evidences supporting it. This is basically nothing but following the desires, you don't like a thing and you refute it by hook or crook.

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Dont even talk with Kalaam, he is ignorant. I tell him to use knowledge because Allah does no cause without reason and logic, he says I follow Allah and Quran, he doesnt even make any sense! I dont take his opinion serious anymore because he is contradicting his own sunni books. I gave purely proof from a historical background using only Sunni Scholars and Ulema on umm kulthum daughter of baker, he was too afraid to read it, nor he didnt even answer my questions in a previous thread. That was when I decided not to respond to him anymore...Sometimes people on this website that are sunnis amaze me because they come in hear accusing without any bases, their proof comes from their own books which we dont believe but when we use their books against them there is always "error", or they say the Quran is wrong.

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i already said at other similiar topic that one need not to convert between two, since both are ideologies, but Truth doesnt belong to any ideologies, nor it is a monument from stone or something. It is a pure water which no glass can contain, which is in constant flow ....

 

Being a admirer and follower of Ahlul Bayt a.s., one needs not to be anything in particular. Why not be just a muslim? 

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i already said at other similiar topic that one need not to convert between two, since both are ideologies, but Truth doesnt belong to any ideologies, nor it is a monument from stone or something. It is a pure water which no glass can contain, which is in constant flow ....

 

Being a admirer and follower of Ahlul Bayt a.s., one needs not to be anything in particular. Why not be just a muslim? 

'

 

Do you know what Shia means? it means "follower". We are all Muslims my dear brother, but Who we follow after prophet (s) is The Question.

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'

 

Do you know what Shia means? it means "follower". We are all Muslims my dear brother, but Who we follow after prophet (s) is The Question.

 

Shiism is ideology, as same as sunnism or anything else - if you are shia you follow certain madheb, rules, teachings and all that makes you shia not your attitude toward Ahlul Bayt a.s. Ahlul Bayt a.s. become a mask, a prisoners of that ideology.

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have u guys ever wondered this

why are there just 2 view points "sunni" and "shia" ? is it like american policitics u back the elephant or the donkey

why dont people "convert" to a more balanced view point ? not believing everything that either sect epouses

e.g I know a history professor who is a Maliki sunni but he criticizes muawiayh , Ali, Umar, Abubakr , uthman for their policies he does not think sahaba are beyond criticism yet he also does not declare them apostates or hypocrites for their faults.He respects a lot of shia ulema , he has said that the khawarij need to be rehablitated

He is more like a Proto-sunni i.e before the view of sunnis hardened wrt sahaba due to polemical arguments with imamis

My friend, it's not just about a more balanced view point. Firstly it's about belief and faith (Aqeedah and Eemaan) and the comes thought, opinion and point of view.

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Shiism is ideology, as same as sunnism or anything else - if you are shia you follow certain madheb, rules, teachings and all that makes you shia not your attitude toward Ahlul Bayt a.s. Ahlul Bayt a.s. become a mask, a prisoners of that ideology.

 

 

(1) It is not a made Up Ideology.

(2) Its not a mask Either.

(3) the prophet told us, Hold on to the Quran and His Ahlulbayt (a.s), We choose to Follow Ahlulbayt (a.s).

(4) our Math'ab is the the Teachings from Ahlulbayt (a.s) and the Quran.

(5) Who Do you follow? Who is righteous and more knowledgeable of the Religion of the prophet after his Death?

_________

(wasalam)  

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(1) It is not a made Up Ideology.

(2) Its not a mask Either.

(3) the prophet told us, Hold on to the Quran and His Ahlulbayt (a.s), We choose to Follow Ahlulbayt (a.s).

(4) our Math'ab is the the Teachings from Ahlulbayt (a.s) and the Quran.

(5) Who Do you follow? Who is righteous and more knowledgeable of the Religion of the prophet after his Death?

_________

(wasalam)  

 

If you followed my earlier posts, you would probably noticed that i very much appreciate Ahlul Bayt a.s., and i have no questions above my head who to follow, but as i said earlier ONE NEED NOT TO BE A SHIA, OR TWELVER OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT to be a follower of Ahlul Bayt a.s.

 

Shia imprisoned Ahlul Bayt a.s. as their own property and values, but it is a value of all people, not just muslims.

 

i don't agree with you that shia madhab or twelver madhab is madhab of Ahlu bayt a.s.

 

I found that, you will be surprised, that Hanefi school of thought and practice is closest to Ahlul Bayt a.s. practice with very tiny differences

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If you followed my earlier posts, you would probably noticed that i very much appreciate Ahlul Bayt a.s., and i have no questions above my head who to follow, but as i said earlier ONE NEED NOT TO BE A SHIA, OR TWELVER OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT to be a follower of Ahlul Bayt a.s.

 

Shia imprisoned Ahlul Bayt a.s. as their own property and values, but it is a value of all people, not just muslims.

 

i don't agree with you that shia madhab or twelver madhab is madhab of Ahlu bayt a.s.

 

I found that, you will be surprised, that Hanefi school of thought and practice is closest to Ahlul Bayt a.s. practice with very tiny differences

 

 

We do not Imprison our self's and think that they are only for us. (May Allah Forgive me, If I think of such), and for your information I am aware of the Sincerity of the hanafi school to Ahlulbayt (a.s), But in order for one to follow them, one must know Who they are, and how do we know them exactly, and that is why you will see that the definition of "ahlulbayt (a.s)" is Different between the two major Sects and that is were our Difference come in, on who to follow, Whether those who have shown Respect and honor to Prophet and his Households (a.s), Or follow the very people who have abandoned them and took every right they had.

(wasalam)    

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Ahlul Bayt a.s. is not a land, nor nationality, nor madheb, nor anythink like that – they are free from it and they do not hold to anything like that, since how can truth rely on and hold on something which is derived from truth. Twelvers is derived from Ahlul Bayt a.s., but they are free from it, since they only rely on God and Truth itself, and they represent Truth. Their interests is continuity of God's message and words, and preserving it. They are not  interested in  establishment of institution, religions, doctrine and so on.

With them truth continue, with them it finishes. No school, religion, movement can contain truth beside living member of Ahlul bayt a.s. who is inheritor and successor of living knowledge.

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Ahlul Bayt a.s. is not a land, nor nationality, nor madheb, nor anythink like that – they are free from it and they do not hold to anything like that, since how can truth rely on and hold on something which is derived from truth. Twelvers is derived from Ahlul Bayt a.s., but they are free from it, since they only rely on God and Truth itself, and they represent Truth. Their interests is continuity of God's message and words, and preserving it. They are not  interested in  establishment of institution, religions, doctrine and so on.

With them truth continue, with them it finishes. No school, religion, movement can contain truth beside living member of Ahlul bayt a.s. who is inheritor and successor of living knowledge.

 

 

(1) I did not say they are a land or Nationality or Madhab.

(2) Yes I agree, and what did I say previously?

(3) The School of Ahlulbayt (a.s) is just a term of Relying on the sources to and from ahlulbayt (a.s).

_______

(wasalam)  

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