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Enaya

Sunni - Shi'a Converts

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I'm not really a convert, but just wanted to say, welcome sister, and to the constant cat fights between the Shi'a and Sunni in times and places where there really is no reason to be, can we just calm down, stop acting like children, and if we need to, create another damn thread for it.

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I'm not really a convert, but just wanted to say, welcome sister, and to the constant cat fights between the Shi'a and Sunni in times and places where there really is no reason to be, can we just calm down, stop acting like children, and if we need to, create another damn thread for it.

Thank you for welcoming me :) and yes, I agree. I did not intend my post to cause such fights. I was just hoping to find others who made the same changes that I did :)

P.S. I am from Canada too! Hahaha, born and raised eh.

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Very prominent shia?

Ah, wikipidea source and that to a person whose name I am hearing for the first time. While the alternative reality is most of the nawabs have turned to Shia from Sunnism.

You need to re study your Pakistan studies text book. He is one of the founders of Muslim league, the first Muslim party of India.

Edited by kalaam

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You need to re study your Pakistan studies text book. He is one of the founders of Muslim league, the first Muslim party of India.

Nowhere in your wikipidea it states that he is convert from Shia to Sunni, and no name is more associated with Muslim league of Shia Mohammad Ali Jinnah, but I am not a fan of him as it was the stupidest decision to create Pakistan, abiding to the divide and rule policy of the British.

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Nowhere in your wikipidea it states that he is convert from Shia to Sunni, and no name is more associated with Muslim league of Shia Mohammad Ali Jinnah, but I am not a fan of him as it was the stupidest decision to create Pakistan, abiding to the divide and rule policy of the British.

Give some time to read his book "Ayat e bayyinat" which is mentioned in wiki and see what this book is about. I don't want to indulge in who is more related to Muslim League, I am saying that he is such a figure that if someone tells me he doesn't know him, he hasn't studied well in schools.

I think Muhammad Ali Jinnah was a good person, though he was a Shia, but he was very secular, he hadn't any of these beliefs that we read in the books of Khomeini and Majlisi etc. If there is a Shia who believes in Tawheed and Nubuwwah and doesn't indulge in the other things which are basically their beliefs, I don't have any problem with such Shias. In simple, I don't have any problem with the personality of Muhammad Ali Jinnah and he proved a good leader.

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Muslim League? I don't think you should bring up Muslim League, because as you know, Muhammad Ali Jinnah was a Shia.

no doubt he has some secular thoughts as he has spent most of his life in west..but he was nt shia at all.. who lead the janaza prayer of him ? nd who lead the janaza prayer of his sister fatima jinnah ? if u read the historic facts, we come to knw tht fatima jinnah made a wasiya abt her jinaza prayer tht mufit shafi usmani shuld lead the jinaza prayer( a well knwn sunni scholar at tht time)..

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Give some time to read his book "Ayat e bayyinat" which is mentioned in wiki and see what this book is about. I don't want to indulge in who is more related to Muslim League, I am saying that he is such a figure that if someone tells me he doesn't know him, he hasn't studied well in schools.

I think Muhammad Ali Jinnah was a good person, though he was a Shia, but he was very secular, he hadn't any of these beliefs that we read in the books of Khomeini and Majlisi etc. If there is a Shia who believes in Tawheed and Nubuwwah and doesn't indulge in the other things which are basically their beliefs, I don't have any problem with such Shias. In simple, I don't have any problem with the personality of Muhammad Ali Jinnah and he proved a good leader.

The famous scholar Abu Ala Maududi actually did criticized Muhammad Ali Jinnah, and worked against him even though the leader was always positive.

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The famous scholar Abu Ala Maududi actually did criticized Muhammad Ali Jinnah, and worked against him even though the leader was always positive.

who told u maududi was a famous scholar..u can count his followers on fingers

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The mosque that I taught at was lead by an Imam who would preach against Shi'as. He considered them non-Muslim. Some of my family friends also felt the same way, I even know one woman who stated that, "Shi'as are wajib-ul-qatl." I hated such terms and sermons that lashed out against Shias. Even though I was not one at the time, I still always stood up for Shias. I always supported them. I didn't like the environment I was surrounded by, and since I could not change their ignorance, I had to change myself. Sunnism was not for me.

That's how most of the Sunnis are. They don't really have any rational explanations on why their precious sahabas fought the ahl al-bayt. They can't explain all the wars after the death of the Prophet (pbuh). And they want you to believe that their nobody imams are superior to the Imams of Ahl al-Bayt.

Thank God you were guided by Allah swt. Clearly you don't belong with them.

Welcome aboard.

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That's how most of the Sunnis are. They don't really have any rational explanations on why their precious sahabas fought the ahl al-bayt. They can't explain all the wars after the death of the Prophet (pbuh). And they want you to believe that their nobody imams are superior to the Imams of Ahl al-Bayt.

What would you say if I ask you why did the precious ahlelbayt married their daughters to sahaba?

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Not a problem. Good women have been married to evil tyrants and the scums of earth (refer to the Quran).

What if I told you that your precious sahabas oppressed the ahl al-Bayt? And one went to the extent of harming Fatima (sa).

Is our shariah like the previous shariahs? Does our shariah tells us to marry the daughters to the scums of the earth or does it tells us to marry our daughters to the believers?

I have read all the so called oppressions on ahlelbayt. The myth of fatima being hurt is a myth only. You can't bring one sahih narration for it which is not disconnected, and which is sahih as far as sanad is concerned. And what if I tell you ahlelbayt oppressed one another as well? =)

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Is our shariah like the previous shariahs? Does our shariah tells us to marry the daughters to the scums of the earth or does it tells us to marry our daughters to the believers?

I have read all the so called oppressions on ahlelbayt. The myth of fatima being hurt is a myth only. You can't bring one sahih narration for it which is not disconnected, and which is sahih as far as sanad is concerned. And what if I tell you ahlelbayt oppressed one another as well? =)

Bring forth your so-called evidence instead of just being a blabbermouth...

Is it the Umm Kulthoum story again? If that's the only thing you've got then no need, that has been proved incorrect and settled over and over again...

The "myth" of Fatima being hurt/angry at Abu Bakr & Umar is in your mythical Sunni books and saheehs... So if you claim it's a lie then your whole saheeh books system is flawed and you should shoot yourself...

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Bring forth your so-called evidence instead of just being a blabbermouth...

Is it the Umm Kulthoum story again? If that's the only thing you've got then no need, that has been proved incorrect and settled over and over again...

The "myth" of Fatima being hurt/angry at Abu Bakr & Umar is in your mythical Sunni books and saheehs... So if you claim it's a lie then your whole saheeh books system is flawed and you should shoot yourself...

Thank you Kaniz e Zahra!

There are so many authentic ahadith from both your and our books, as well as the statements of your scholars and our scholars, which prove that the Umm Kulthum bint Fatima ÑÖí Çááå ÚäåÇ story is a reality, not a myth. Anyhow, I was talking about the oppressions of Ahlelbayt on one another and there internal discords as present in your books.

On the other hand, the story that Fatima ÑÖí Çááå ÚäåÇ got hurt is not proven with a single sahih hadith in our books, nor any of our renowned scholars accepted it.

Edited by kalaam

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Thank you Kaniz e Zahra!

There are so many authentic ahadith from both your and our books, as well as the statements of your scholars and our scholars, which prove that the Umm Kulthum bint Fatima ÑÖí Çááå ÚäåÇ story is a reality, not a myth. Anyhow, I was talking about the oppressions of Ahlelbayt on one another and there internal discords as present in your books.

On the other hand, the story that Fatima ÑÖí Çááå ÚäåÇ got hurt is not proven with a single sahih hadith in our books, nor any of our renowned scholars accepted it.

Salaam Alaikum, As for the "Umm Kulthum [sa] marriage to Ibn Al Khattab" it's been discussed before in depth, my local Alim has discussed it-including our books-over here in

, in case you're interested.

As for the Fatima [as] getting hurt and potentially killed by Ibn Al Khattab incident, firstly, Hadith is a saying of the Prophet, you're looking for an Athar, firstly, there are more than enough Ahadith of Ibn Al Khattab beating women, before and after Islam, among Sahih Narrations, yes are no where to be seen in your Sahih Sitta, do you think this would end up? Now there have been countless narrations of this, from Mussanaf Ibn Abi Shayba (Volume 7 page 432), or Tabari (Volume 3 Page 198), or Al Baladharee's Asnaab Al Ashraaf (Volume 1 Page 586), Mizaan Al I'tidaal (Volume 2 Page 215). There are a lot of others as well, and "Revisiting the Salaf" is also making a 5 (or 6) part series on this event.

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Salaam Alaikum, As for the "Umm Kulthum [sa] marriage to Ibn Al Khattab" it's been discussed before in depth, my local Alim has discussed it-including our books-over here in

, in case you're interested.

I can also give you links of many videos in which scholars proved that it did happen =)

As for the Fatima [as] getting hurt and potentially killed by Ibn Al Khattab incident, firstly, Hadith is a saying of the Prophet, you're looking for an Athar, firstly, there are more than enough Ahadith of Ibn Al Khattab beating women, before and after Islam, among Sahih Narrations, yes are no where to be seen in your Sahih Sitta, do you think this would end up? Now there have been countless narrations of this, from Mussanaf Ibn Abi Shayba (Volume 7 page 432), or Tabari (Volume 3 Page 198), or Al Baladharee's Asnaab Al Ashraaf (Volume 1 Page 586), Mizaan Al I'tidaal (Volume 2 Page 215). There are a lot of others as well, and "Revisiting the Salaf" is also making a 5 (or 6) part series on this event.

Prove any single athar as sahih please. Take any single one as you consider fit for your purpose.

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I can also give you links of many videos in which scholars proved that it did happen =)

The link itself was disproving the claim that Sunnis make about our books saying that such a wedding ever took place, but I'll bite, first let me point out, Umar Ibn Al Khattab had many wives by the name of "Umm Kulthoom", but in turn let me ask evidence that this wedding was between Umm Kulthoom Bint Ali [as], and we'll go further. Also next time quote me directly so I know you said something.

Prove any single athar as sahih please. Take any single one as you consider fit for your purpose.

First "Sahih" is not the only grading for a Hadith, there are many others, such as:

  • Hasan
  • Muwwatthiq
  • Musnad
  • Muttassil

So just keep in mind that "Sahih" is not the only grading out there, now, refer to the Hadith of Ibn Abi Shayba, who is the teacher of Imam Bukhari, the author of Sahih Al Bukhari in his Mussanaf, let's look at some others renowned for their Ilm Al Rijaal and Ilm Al Hadith skills who record this:

  • "When I saw her, I remembered what would be done to her after me. It is as if I see that degradation has entered into her house, and her honour has been violated; her right has been usurped; her inheritance has been denied to her, and she was made to miscarry her baby, while she called out 'O Muhammad', but received no answer." Fara'id Al Samtayan Volume 2 page 35
    They write about the author as follows: "He was very careful in relating narrations." Tazkirat Al Huffaz Volume 4 page 1 ,

This is just a bit of a rushed answer, sorry, since I need to return to school quickly because my lunch is ending.

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The link itself was disproving the claim that Sunnis make about our books saying that such a wedding ever took place, but I'll bite, first let me point out, Umar Ibn Al Khattab had many wives by the name of "Umm Kulthoom", but in turn let me ask evidence that this wedding was between Umm Kulthoom Bint Ali [as], and we'll go further. Also next time quote me directly so I know you said something.

There is a narration in Sahih Bukhari which proves that she is Umm Kulthum bint Fatima. And there is an authentic narration in al Kafi that when Umar (ra) died, Ali (ra) went to Umm Kulthum (ra) and returned with her to home. In this narration, there is no mentioning whether she is Umm Kulthum bint Ali, or someone else, but the incident itself proves that she is Umm Kulthum bint Ali.

First "Sahih" is not the only grading for a Hadith, there are many others, such as:

  • Hasan
  • Muwwatthiq
  • Musnad
  • Muttassil

So just keep in mind that "Sahih" is not the only grading out there, now, refer to the Hadith of Ibn Abi Shayba, who is the teacher of Imam Bukhari, the author of Sahih Al Bukhari in his Mussanaf, let's look at some others renowned for their Ilm Al Rijaal and Ilm Al Hadith skills who record this:

  • "When I saw her, I remembered what would be done to her after me. It is as if I see that degradation has entered into her house, and her honour has been violated; her right has been usurped; her inheritance has been denied to her, and she was made to miscarry her baby, while she called out 'O Muhammad', but received no answer." Fara'id Al Samtayan Volume 2 page 35
    They write about the author as follows: "He was very careful in relating narrations." Tazkirat Al Huffaz Volume 4 page 1 ,

This is just a bit of a rushed answer, sorry, since I need to return to school quickly because my lunch is ending.

The naration in Musnad ibn abi shayba is disconnected. Secondly, Faraid al samtayn is not a sunni book. There is no grading like muwathaq in our school of thought, it is only in Shia school of thought ,and is used for such narrations in which some non imami narrator is present. If a narration is graded as musnad and muttasil, that doesn't mean it is authentic. There can be a muttasil sanad in which a narrator is weak.

If you want to talk over this topic, please open a new topic, or a topic about this issue, which is like one or two pages, not like 10 or 15 pages =)

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There is a narration in Sahih Bukhari which proves that she is Umm Kulthum bint Fatima. And there is an authentic narration in al Kafi that when Umar (ra) died, Ali (ra) went to Umm Kulthum (ra) and returned with her to home. In this narration, there is no mentioning whether she is Umm Kulthum bint Ali, or someone else, but the incident itself proves that she is Umm Kulthum bint Ali.

Sahih bukhari means nothing to us,there are countless false and silly narrations in that book via abu huraria,and the ummuyyads,etc.

Can you bring us this authentic ahadeeth in kafi please?

Wrong umm kulthum.

How is that? Umm kulthum was the daughter in law of Imam ali (as),she is the daughter of abu bakr,he married his wife.

She was very close to Imam ali (as),as she was also the brother of muhammad ibn abu bakr (ra).

So when Umar died,the closest wali to her would be her Imam ali (as) and her brother muhammad,you have proven nothing.

Edited by Ibn-Ahmed Aliyy Herz

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Sahih bukhari means nothing to us,there are countless false and silly narrations in that book via abu huraria,and the ummuyyads,etc.

Can you bring us this authentic ahadeeth in kafi please?

Wrong umm kulthum.

How is that? Umm kulthum was the daughter in law of Imam ali (as),she is the daughter of abu bakr,he married his wife.

She was very close to Imam ali (as),as she was also the brother of muhammad ibn abu bakr (ra).

So when Umar died,the closest wali to her would be her Imam ali (as) and her brother muhammad,you have proven nothing.

The onus would be for you to prove it was Umm Kulthum bint Abu Bakr - but in any case, why would Imam Ali let her marry Umar if he was such a bad person? Did he not have a responsbility towards her as well?

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The onus would be for you to prove it was Umm Kulthum bint Abu Bakr - but in any case, why would Imam Ali let her marry Umar if he was such a bad person? Did he not have a responsbility towards her as well?

Actually the proof is on you to prove that she was ali (as) daughter.....

And she was married to umar during the life of abu bakr (her father gave her to him),it has nothing to do with ali (as)

Edited by Ibn-Ahmed Aliyy Herz

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Actually the proof is on you to prove that she was ali (as) daughter.....

And she was married to umar during the life of abu bakr (her father gave her to him),it has nothing to do with ali (as)

http://www.revivingalislam.com/2010/12/umars-marriage-to-umm-kulthum.html

Whether you accept it or not, narrations are there. Do you have any narrations that state it was bint Abu Bakr?

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There is a narration in Sahih Bukhari which proves that she is Umm Kulthum bint Fatima.

And your first issue, we're Shi'a, Bukhari is a useless an argument in a debate against a Shi'a, we don't use Bukhari, have you read through it firstly, this is just embarrassing stuff considered Sahih:

  • Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 39 :
    Narrated by Aisha
    That the Prophet entered upon her while a man was sitting with her. Signs of anger seemed to appear on his face as if he disliked that. She said, "Here is my (foster) brother." He said, "Be sure as to who is your foster brother, for foster suckling relationship is established only when milk is the only food of the child."

And that's what I found in 2 minutes, not even a website, the Prophet [sawaws] enters his wife (I won't be blunt since this is the Prophet [sawaws], in front of someone else, and this is what passes off as Sahih.

And there is an authentic narration in al Kafi that when Umar (ra) died, Ali (ra) went to Umm Kulthum (ra) and returned with her to home.

I'd ask you to refer to the video which you threw off almost instantly, about how some of such Ahadith have had been given in Taqiyya. It answers this argument made by Sunnis. Also I'd like you to note that in our Shi'a Hadith of this incident, Umar threatened Imam Ali [as] if he didn't hand over Um Kulthoom, so just wondering how far that'll get you in evidence.

In this narration, there is no mentioning whether she is Umm Kulthum bint Ali, or someone else, but the incident itself proves that she is Umm Kulthum bint Ali.

No narration to being with, you're claiming there are narrations-I'll play along with you though-however you need to quote/site something if you claim it's there, and look below to Ibn Ahmed's efforts in this matter to see further how good this claim you made here is.

The naration in Musnad ibn abi shayba is disconnected. Secondly, Faraid al samtayn is not a sunni book. There is no grading like muwathaq in our school of thought, it is only in Shia school of thought ,and is used for such narrations in which some non imami narrator is present. If a narration is graded as musnad and muttasil, that doesn't mean it is authentic. There can be a muttasil sanad in which a narrator is weak.

If you want to talk over this topic, please open a new topic, or a topic about this issue, which is like one or two pages, not like 10 or 15 pages =)

And as it continues, like I was showing, Sahih and Dha'eef are not the only gradings that exist and when they're there, they have certain types for them, like there are in turn certain types for Dha'eef narrations (Mahjool, Mu'allaq, etc.), nonetheless, "Sahih" is a subjective term not objective, it varies between people seeing as each has a standard of what is Sahih, such as Imam Bukhari who has in his standard that:

  • Narrators all need to be reliable
  • Narrators need to have had been knowledgable people
  • Narrators in a chain have had to had met each other
  • Narrators need have had been praised for their knowledge

Yet if you refer above you see how far that got Bukhari in the quality of narrations he put out there, where the Prophet [sawaws] does that act in front of others. Now, the two reasons you can search through Sunni books all day and night but will never find a Hadith declared Sahih by any scholar is because of two reasons:

  1. They'd be killed for saying that
  2. They won't declare this event Sahih because it's a conflict of interest, they say "Yes this event is Sahih where our beloved Second Khalif may Allah be pleased with him injured greatly the daughter of the Prophet [sawaws], and we love them both", that there will never happen they declare such an event happened, but that doesn't mean it didn't.

Since the scholars will not go to declare the event Sahih then one needs to go and judge the chain themselves, like Revisiting the Salaf is. Now, you have narrations upon narrations this happened (It's Mutawattir the amount of narrations you find of it), so you need to stop and think about it a second.

Also, please quote me in the fashion I quote you so I know you said something to me, and I can answer immediatly instead of this.

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And your first issue, we're Shi'a, Bukhari is a useless an argument in a debate against a Shi'a, we don't use Bukhari, have you read through it firstly, this is just embarrassing stuff considered Sahih:

  • Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 39 :
    Narrated by Aisha
    That the Prophet entered upon her while a man was sitting with her. Signs of anger seemed to appear on his face as if he disliked that. She said, "Here is my (foster) brother." He said, "Be sure as to who is your foster brother, for foster suckling relationship is established only when milk is the only food of the child."

And that's what I found in 2 minutes, not even a website, the Prophet [sawaws] enters his wife (I won't be blunt since this is the Prophet [sawaws], in front of someone else, and this is what passes off as Sahih.

Such mistakes were done by different companions, because the things were not clear, with the passage of time, when they knew the commandments, they would avoid it. And the hadith after it shows that after this , she would ask the Prophet (s) about even the close relatives, whether they are her mahram or not.

Bukhari 007.062.040

Narrated Aisha:

that Aflah the brother of Abu Al-Qu'ais, her foster uncle, came, asking permission to enter upon her after the Verse of Al-Hijab (the use of veils by women) was revealed. 'Aisha added: I did not allow him to enter, but when
Allah
's Apostle came, I told him what I had done, and he ordered me to give him permission.

Secondly, a book being called sahih is no crime. Many of your scholars called al Kafi as sahih even though more than half of it is weak. And al Kafi itself means enough. According to us as well, when we call Bukhari as sahih, we say it is an authentic book, we don't equal it to the Quran and you should read more regarding it.

And as it continues, like I was showing, Sahih and Dha'eef are not the only gradings that exist and when they're there, they have certain types for them, like there are in turn certain types for Dha'eef narrations (Mahjool, Mu'allaq, etc.), nonetheless, "Sahih" is a subjective term not objective, it varies between people seeing as each has a standard of what is Sahih, such as Imam Bukhari who has in his standard that:

  • Narrators all need to be reliable
  • Narrators need to have had been knowledgable people
  • Narrators in a chain have had to had met each other
  • Narrators need have had been praised for their knowledge

Yet if you refer above you see how far that got Bukhari in the quality of narrations he put out there, where the Prophet [sawaws] does that act in front of others. Now, the two reasons you can search through Sunni books all day and night but will never find a Hadith declared Sahih by any scholar is because of two reasons:

  1. They'd be killed for saying that
  2. They won't declare this event Sahih because it's a conflict of interest, they say "Yes this event is Sahih where our beloved Second Khalif may Allah be pleased with him injured greatly the daughter of the Prophet [sawaws], and we love them both", that there will never happen they declare such an event happened, but that doesn't mean it didn't.

Since the scholars will not go to declare the event Sahih then one needs to go and judge the chain themselves, like Revisiting the Salaf is. Now, you have narrations upon narrations this happened (It's Mutawattir the amount of narrations you find of it), so you need to stop and think about it a second.

Also, please quote me in the fashion I quote you so I know you said something to me, and I can answer immediatly instead of this.

First of all, there is nothing like mahjool, rather it is majhool. secondly the narration you mentioned doesn't contain anything wrong, thirdly the rest of your argument I didn't understand, why if a narration is sahih in a sunni book, the scholar will be killed for it?

Again, you didn't find any sahih athar to support your claim that Fatima ÑÖí Çááå ÚäåÇ was hurt.

Edited by kalaam

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