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roseofkarbala

Sunnis And Shias- Can We Just Unite...?

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54 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

We don't need to unite on our beliefs. We need to unite against the common enemy. Each one will be asked about his/her belief by Allah on the Day of Judgement. 

The Common enemy is the same, you had at before but you will understand it better, with Karbala.

Truth vs Falsehood

Humanity vs InHumanity.

 

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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36 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

Firstly reject the thing quoted in this thread. That Nauzobillah Prophet was just there to reveal the message. He was normal, etc.

Most of the Sunnis (Not wahhabis) are die hard lovers of RasoolAllah and they "almost" share the same belief as us on RasoolAllah.

Yes there are obvious differences on Imam Ali. But here too they love Imam Ali. Yes their love and our love, their Maaref'at and our Maarefa't has a "lot" of gap. Again they love the Holy Household but they don't actually follow them, this is a very major difference but till now they are not hating anyone.

They don't hate them who should have been hated. Its okay. They'll get the similar reward. They are firm on their innocence, let them be.

So we can unite on the pre existing common (somewhat) love for RasoolAllah and the Holy Household (Again just love, don't examine the hate part. if Imam Mahdi (ajfs) would come and show them the corrupt people through his Power and Ilm e Ghayb, most of them will accept the tragedy that happened and will denounce those whom they considered sacred.)

Now 1. Our Common enemy is Israel. The enemy of Islam and Muslims. Our common enemy are all Imperialist powers who are trying to make Muslims brawl over each other, kill each other and finally they'll occupy everything.

2. Common enemy is against the unity of Muslims. Because he knows that unity will make them strong. And their plans will fail. We are the 2nd Largest Religion. And we have Hajj as a very very Powerful source to come together and denounce the enemy and remove the internal rifts we might have with each other. This is one of the most important aspect of Hajj.

3. When Muslims will be united, things will be sorted. If Muslims become the world power, this will surely hasten the Imam reappearance. You can apply the logic (WHY?) 

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ إِلَّا رَحْمَةً لِلْعَالَمِينَ {107}

[Pickthal 21:107] We sent thee not save as a mercy for the peoples.

The moment, the so called Muslims stop oppressing the Mercy, they will be liberated.

I will post this again, 

Quote

"Lets see if the calls for Unity are real.

Are the Muslims united or disunited.

1) Messenger, only in Delivering Revelation. Rest, only a human like us, others an have better judgement,  opinions in leadership,preserving Quran, etc..

2) Messenger, but Book of Allah(awj)  is sufficient for us

3) Mawla in All comprehensive and Complete sense. (Prophet/Messenger/Imam-Khaliftullah Vicegerent of Allah(awj) without limitation of time and space - All my affairs- as Islam is the same as our Nature, as its a Way of life not only a personal relationship with  Allah(awj). 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235006908-sunnis-and-shias-can-we-just-unite/?page=4&tab=comments#comment-3097753

 

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58 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Just a simple question. Show me how you are trying to get united with shias?

Can you tell me where we are lacking in uniting with Shias? (Vague Akhbaris can't be brought under unity, Just like Ahmadis can't be brought under Unity of Muslims)

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1 minute ago, Waseem162 said:

Aha! Now I understand. You surely an Akhbari. You can't be an Usuli.

Not at all. I'm in the taqleed of Ayatullah Sistani. I do not recite third shahadah in Salaat.

If you are telling me that I'm akhbari just because I'm in favour of unity with them then you are sunni because you whole day insist on unity with them. Fair enough?

Edited by Sirius_Bright

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1 minute ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Not at all. I'm in the taqleed of Ayatullah Sistani. I do not recite third shahadah in Salaat.

Same here! I'm a muqallid of Ayatullah ul Udhma Sistani (h.a).

But being his muqallid and listening to well renowned Ulemas, how can you even think of uniting with Akhbaris who "Openly lash their curses on Marajes"??

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Just now, Waseem162 said:

Same here! I'm a muqallid of Ayatullah ul Udhma Sistani (h.a).

But being his muqallid and listening to well renowned Ulemas, how can you even think of uniting with Akhbaris who "Openly lash their curses on Marajes"??

Maraja's are respected figures but not ma'soom. While those personalities who are masoom are disrespected by your sunni brothers (check with bukhari and others). Sunnis don't believe in 12 Imams akhbaris do. Sunni respect the murderers of Ahlulbait (ams) while akhbaris disassociates with them. We have almost everything in common with Shia Akhbaris than sunnis. Tell me where to step for unity first, with sunnis or shias?

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7 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Maraja's are respected figures but not ma'soom. While those personalities who are masoom are disrespected by your sunni brothers (check with bukhari and others). Sunnis don't believe in 12 Imams akhbaris do. Sunni respect the murderers of Ahlulbait (ams) while akhbaris disassociates with them. We have almost everything in common with Shia Akhbaris than sunnis. Tell me where to step for unity first, with sunnis or shias?

You are lacking BASEERAH in this case my friend. Internal damage is more than the external damage.

Unity with Akhbaris is just not doable because here we are "compromising on our True beliefs". If we let Akhbaris do their job freely then surely most of the people will go astray. Attributing "Divinity" to 14 masomeens and hurling around Khutba tul Bayaan. Propagating about Shahdat e Salesa in Tashahud. This will affect our generation and the concept of "Taqwa" as Imam Mahdi wanted will not be achieved.

Because a person performing wrong acts in the name of Allah, having wrong beliefs in the name of Ahlulbayt can't be rewarded. And this is the target/goal of Shias for the Reappearance.

Usulis "condemn" Akhbaris on Intellectual grounds. These Akhbaris have taken themselves to Ghulat too.

Unity with Sunnis is not on belief. But just against the common enemy and to bring power and peace to the Muslim World. We are not going to ban taraweeh and they're not going to attack Majalis unlike Wahhabi takfiris. They will be them and we will be us. The only good thing will be "No Wahhabiat". Sunnis too don't want Wahhabis. Also no Imperialistic domination on Muslims. 

Edited by Waseem162

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5 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

You are lacking BASEERAH in this case my friend. Internal damage is more than the external damage.

Okay. As you say Mr. Ocean of wisdom.

6 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

Unity with Akhbaris is just not doable because here we are "compromising on our True beliefs".

Already seeing shias denying tabarrah and Azadari due to love for sunnis.

9 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

Attributing "Divinity" to 14 masomeens and hurling around Khutba tul Bayaan.

You cannot say about this things. Scholars have differing opinion on the issue of takwiniyat.

10 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

Propagating about Shahdat e Salesa in Tashahud

Propagating about wilayat-e-Faqeeh. Both should be a choice based on one's muqallad.

12 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

This will affect our generation and the concept of "Taqwa" as Imam Mahdi wanted will not be achieved.

:confused: ??

14 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

Usulis "condemn" Akhbaris on Intellectual grounds. These Akhbaris have taken themselves to Ghulat too.

Why can't the same usuli "condemn" sunnis for following Murderers and usurpers of Ahlulbait (ams) on intellectual grounds. Sunnis have taken themselves away from Sirat-e-Mustaqeem.

16 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

Unity with Sunnis is not on belief.

True, but on papers. I remember few excited shia kids went on to pray taraweeh with sunnis. Each and everyday we see many shias denying tabarrah. Rituals of Azadari (other than tatbir) are denied by shia similar to sunnis. Tawassul is the new thing many shias are going against these days, etc.

21 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

We are not going to ban taraweeh and they're not going to attack Majalis unlike Wahhabi takfiris.

Not with weapons but ideologically both are gonna do this.

All in all I see much more in common with different shia subsects than with a sunni.

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13 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Okay. As you say Mr. Ocean of wisdom.

Already seeing shias denying tabarrah and Azadari due to love for sunnis.

You cannot say about this things. Scholars have differing opinion on the issue of takwiniyat.

Propagating about wilayat-e-Faqeeh. Both should be a choice based on one's muqallad.

:confused: ??

Why can't the same usuli "condemn" sunnis for following Murderers and usurpers of Ahlulbait (ams) on intellectual grounds. Sunnis have taken themselves away from Sirat-e-Mustaqeem.

True, but on papers. I remember few excited shia kids went on to pray taraweeh with sunnis. Each and everyday we see many shias denying tabarrah. Rituals of Azadari (other than tatbir) are denied by shia similar to sunnis. Tawassul is the new thing many shias are going against these days, etc.

Not with weapons but ideologically both are gonna do this.

All in all I see much more in common with different shia subsects than with a sunni.

Allah knows my state better than you do (You quoting me an Ocean of something). Wilayat e Taqwiniyah is not Divinity. Divinity is by self. Wilayat is given by Allah. Wilayat e Faqih and Shahdat e Salesa are way too different subjects. We don't force Wilayat e Faqih on someone. But Akhbaris say that those who don't recite Shahadat e Salesa is not of pure blood. (He is an illegitimate offspring).

Those Usulis have done it, (condemning the wrongdoers). We don't care whether Sunnis are on Sirat al Mustaqeem or not. Its their choice. We can only put facts in front. Those shias who did went to Taraweeh committed a sin of taking part in a Bida and hence strengthening it. Usulis condemn strengthening any Bida. We do Tabarrah but Laan Taan and Tabarrah are very different from each other. First understand what Tabarra is. Who on this earth is denying "rituals of Azadari". How do you made up this??

Who said Tawassul is not a part of Shiism. Infact it is one of the most important beliefs of Shiism. Are you talking about Shias of Mars who do all these things? Because Usulis don't ask their Muqallids to do so.

Yes Sunni and Shias are different on Ideologically and will be against each other till the end. This is very natural. This is the basis of being divided in sects. That doesn't means we can't live in peace and come together to fight the enemy.

 

What do you think - Fighting the enemy is more important by Uniting with the Majority (sunnis), or Uniting with Akhbaris and letting Shiism get ruined. 

Do know that Modern day Akhbariyat is a clear source of Fitnah and a door to jahiliyat. The first video is something you must Listen!!

 

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4 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

Wilayat e Faqih and Shahdat e Salesa are way too different subjects. We don't force Wilayat e Faqih on someone. But Akhbaris say that those who don't recite Shahadat e Salesa is not of pure blood. (He is an illegitimate offspring).

See, I'm not at all favouring akhbariyat but the comparison between Akhbaris and sunnis is clear cut. I'll be keeping a mile of distance from those who follow the one who oppressed Ahlulbait (ams). While what Akhbari says about those who do not recite shahadat e Salesa is not false but I have met hardcore WFers who says those who do not believe in wilayat-e-Faqih of Ayatullah Khamenei is not Shia. Problem is on both the sides.

9 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

We do Tabarrah but Laan Taan and Tabarrah are very different from each other.

La'an is a part of tabarrah and the way of Ahlulbait (ams). This is a topic for some other day, some other thread.

11 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

Who on this earth is denying "rituals of Azadari". How do you made up this??

This has happened and is still happening. You are very naive or acting like one. No one's making anything.

12 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

Who said Tawassul is not a part of Shiism. Infact it is one of the most important beliefs of Shiism. Are you talking about Shias of Mars who do all these things?

Stay some more time on SC and you'll yourself get to know those Shias of Mars.

13 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

Yes Sunni and Shias are different on Ideologically and will be against each other till the end. This is very natural. This is the basis of being divided in sects. That doesn't means we can't live in peace and come together to fight the enemy.

Why not consider same things for other Shia subsects.

15 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

What do you think - Fighting the enemy is more important by Uniting with the Majority (sunnis), or Uniting with Akhbaris and letting Shiism get ruined. 

So you are uniting with sunnis because they are in majority. Interesting!. Gathering a vast number to fight enemies, Really? What have you learnt from Badr, Ohad.. Karbala?

I'm not telling you to unite with Akhbaris or sunnis but if you want to united with anyone then subsects of shias are far better to get united than a sunni.

I'm done. You can continue with polemics.

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4 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

See, I'm not at all favouring akhbariyat but the comparison between Akhbaris and sunnis is clear cut. I'll be keeping a mile of distance from those who follow the one who oppressed Ahlulbait (ams). While what Akhbari says about those who do not recite shahadat e Salesa is not false but I have met hardcore WFers who says those who do not believe in wilayat-e-Faqih of Ayatullah Khamenei is not Shia. Problem is on both the sides.

La'an is a part of tabarrah and the way of Ahlulbait (ams). This is a topic for some other day, some other thread.

This has happened and is still happening. You are very naive or acting like one. No one's making anything.

Stay some more time on SC and you'll yourself get to know those Shias of Mars.

Why not consider same things for other Shia subsects.

So you are uniting with sunnis because they are in majority. Interesting!. Gathering a vast number to fight enemies, Really? What have you learnt from Badr, Ohad.. Karbala?

I'm not telling you to unite with Akhbaris or sunnis but if you want to united with anyone then subsects of shias are far better to get united than a sunni.

I'm done. You can continue with polemics.

Neither am making "aggressive" claims nor I intend to do so. Didn't Imam Hussain(a.s) invited the entire Muslim nation as a whole??

If only 72 turned up that doesn't means that we always have to fight keeping our number less.

Well I know this debate (call it anything) is not going to bear any fruit because we both are rigid on our opinions.

So finish this over here. Go and unite with Modern day Akhbaris and continue the tampering of Shiism. I better unite with those who won't tamper Shiism at least (Sunnis).

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4 hours ago, islam25 said:

Mr.Till 1979 even Iran too was under western control. 

Today Iraq is also partially under western control. To be United we need learn to agree on difference than fight over it. And help each other in getting out of trap of western traps. 

You have not addressed  those countries who are in partnership with the west, do you think it's remotely possible for the Sunni countries to break up their alliances with west for the sake of unity with Shia's, considering the current state in the middle east?

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Even our beloved Prophet Muhammad (SAW) wasn't infallible: He even indicated that, himself!

So I'm not sure why The Shia have Imams whom they consider to be infallible!

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4 hours ago, Waseem162 said:

Lebanon, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Turkey (new comer), Iraq and Iran are under one shelter now. Qatar and Kuwait are too showing interest in Unity and are marching ahead to go against Saudi Arabia.

Palestine is the common cause. Defeating Israel and US is the common cause. Be optimistic. See through the real lenses. Collaboration is actually happening. 

If these countries Turkey, Kuwait, and libya were to face sanction isolation from the mainstream Sunni countries and including the west, i say this with certainty they will be quick to do a U- turn. 

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Just now, power said:

If these countries Turkey, Kuwait, and libya were to face sanction isolation from the mainstream Sunni countries and including the west, i say this with certainty they will be quick to do a U- turn. 

You can't say that. Libya is still under sanctions. Qatar is now under sanctions. But they are resistant. 

Yes I know they can't bear the pressure like Iran but still they are doing good by their capabilities.

Don't speculate. Rather Support.

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Just now, Waseem162 said:

You can't say that. Libya is still under sanctions. Qatar is now under sanctions. But they are resistant. 

Yes I know they can't bear the pressure like Iran but still they are doing good by their capabilities.

Don't speculate. Rather Support.

Its a probability. where as your wishful thinking of unity is based upon what exactly? what analytical  reason have you given that Sunnis what unity anyway??

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1 minute ago, power said:

Its a probability. where as your wishful thinking of unity is based upon what exactly? what analytical  reason have you given that Sunnis what unity anyway??

I'm not going to repeat that all over again. Read my last 20 replies and you'll understand what point I was trying to make.

Also read my Signature!

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Just now, ManofIslam said:

Yes, and by seeking Forgiveness from Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى.

Mortals does not have to do anything with infallibility of what we understand. Seeking Forgiveness does not mean that we have sinned. I ask forgiveness if I have not done some of non-wajib 'Amaal that I do usually that bring the pleasure of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى.

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Just now, Dhulfikar said:

Mortals does not have to do anything with infallibility of what we understand. Seeking Forgiveness does not mean that we have sinned. I ask forgiveness if I have not done some of non-wajib 'Amaal that I do usually that bring the pleasure of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى.

OK: So, Dhulfikar: I ask respectfully: What does Infallibility mean, when applied to the Shia Imam?

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This is a Sunni site with Sunni answer:

http://seekershub.org/ans-blog/2014/05/26/if-the-prophet-was-infallible-why-did-he-ask-for-forgiveness/

They said: Yes, Ibn Kathir did include these supplications of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace). However, this does not negate his (Allah bless him and give him peace) infallibility or that of the other Messengers (Allah bless them and give them all peace).

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3 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

I'm not going to repeat that all over again. Read my last 20 replies and you'll understand what point I was trying to make.

Also read my Signature!

Just answer this; what motion have the Sunni world set in motion for Unity with Shia's?

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1 minute ago, Dhulfikar said:

This is a Sunni site with Sunni answer:

http://seekershub.org/ans-blog/2014/05/26/if-the-prophet-was-infallible-why-did-he-ask-for-forgiveness/

They said: Yes, Ibn Kathir did include these supplications of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace). However, this does not negate his (Allah bless him and give him peace) infallibility or that of the other Messengers (Allah bless them and give them all peace).

Jazaka Allah khair, bro: I appreciate your reply.

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14 minutes ago, power said:

Just answer this; what motion have the Sunni world set in motion for Unity with Shia's?

Many of the Sunni Ulemas and Muftis have made this their mission to propagate Unity. Also Grand Mufti of Syria, Al Azhar University, Mufti of Palestine, Ulema of Yemen want Shia unity and they are on board with Iran to team up against common enemy.

We don't see it. But leading players have already started this process.

In India both Sunni and Shia Ulema hold a Unity Week in the week of the month when RasoolAllah was born.

All gather and share same happiness and talks of uniting against the common enemy is discussed.

Sometimes they come and pray behind us (in any of the eids), Sometimes we go and pray behind them.

Much more is actually happening. 

They are denouncing extreme Sunnis and we are denouncing extreme Shias.

We both are holding conferences against Jannat ul Baqi demolition every year.

They are participating in Quds rally as well as protest against Nigerian govt demanding release of Sheikh Zak Zaky (Yes Sunnis are also taking part), they even come with us in Moharram Juloos (some of the Sunnis). They recite Qur'an in our Majalis e Aza. They actually do Majalis e Aza with Alam and Taboot in India. I'll someday inbox you the pictures. And this is done on a very grand level. Iranian clerics are also invited to India.

Much more..

Edited by Waseem162

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Quote

OK: So, Dhulfikar: I ask respectfully: What does Infallibility mean, when applied to the Shia Imam?

 

Yes brother. It means that they are pure and don't enjoy His disobedience, but rather they enjoy only His obedience. Infallibility is an protection from Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى, it makes them abstain from Sinning by God Mercy. They still can make sins, but they don't because it is so dislike-able. In my mind there are some verses that comes to my mind about this, first Shaitan will not have effect on them:

“Certainly you shall have no authority over My servants except those who follow you and go astray.” Satan thus replied to Allah, “By Your might, I will surely mislead all of them, except Your chosen servants among them (the messengers and the imams).

Second: The nature of our nafis can leads us to sinning expect those that God give Mercy:

And I do not acquit myself. Indeed, the soul is a persistent enjoiner of evil, except those upon which my Lord has mercy. Indeed, my Lord is Forgiving and Merciful." Surat Yusuf 53

And Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى Mercy is nearer to his righteous servants:

"Verily the mercy of Allah is nigh unto the righteous" (Qur'an 7:56).18

Third. Ahlulbait (as) received purification, which mean that God purified and elevated their Souls to most purified state, such that they could never Sin:

Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification. (33:33)

And God said in Surat al-A'la verse 87:14

He has certainly succeeded who purifies himself

Such a person who purify his soul will be among the righteousness that will only enjoy His obedience, because all the negative attributes that he purified gonna be to him disklikeful.

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Just now, Waseem162 said:

Many of the Sunni Ulemas and Muftis have made this their mission to propagate Unity. Also Grand Mufti of Syria, Al Azhar University, Mufti of Palestine, Ulema of Yemen want Shia unity and they are on board with Iran to team up against common enemy.

We don't see it. But leading players have already started this process.

In India both Sunni and Shia Ulema hold a Unity Week in the week of the month when RasoolAllah was born.

All gather and share same happiness and talks of uniting against the common enemy is discussed.

Sometimes they come and pray behind us (in any of the eids), Sometimes we go and pray behind them.

Much more is actually happening. 

They are denouncing extreme Sunnis and we are denouncing extreme Shias.

We both are holding conferences against Jannat ul Baqi demolition every year.

They are participating in Quds rally as well as protest against Nigerian govt demanding release of Sheikh Zak Zaky (Yes Sunnis are also taking part), they even come with us in Moharram Juloos (some of the Sunnis). They recite Qur'an in our Majalis e Aza.

Much more..

It would require a revolution in the Sunni world to overthrow the dictators oppressor that rule their countries, is this likely to happen? Unlikely. Are the  Sunnis ready for revolution for the sake of unity with Shia's, and change the status quo of their political and social lives  ?? 

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Just now, power said:

It would require a revolution in the Sunni world to overthrow the dictators oppressor that rule their countries, is this likely to happen? Unlikely. Are the  Sunnis ready for revolution for the sake of unity with Shia's, and change the status quo of their political and social lives  ?? 

Aren't you speculating more than needed?? Qatar and Kuwait are calling out against Israel and Saudi.

Turkey against US. Palestinians are ready for revolution. It'll all happen slowly but InshaAllah will.

Lets be optimistic and join hands. Rest leave things on Allah. He is the best of Planners. Period.

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Just now, Waseem162 said:

Aren't you speculating more than needed?? Qatar and Kuwait are calling out against Israel and Saudi.

Turkey against US. Palestinians are ready for revolution. It'll all happen slowly but InshaAllah will.

Lets be optimistic and join hands. Rest leave things on Allah. He is the best of Planners. Period.

Its not speculation, you are just not fully aware of the dynamics and  the process that involves unity? I believe there's a  lot of wishful thinking on your behalf. And furthermore, you are dismissive of the geopolitics factors that will be faced in the uprising Shia and Sunni unity ?

 

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