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Ali.20

Why Would Allah Swt Punish Unbelievers Forever?

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On the flip-side, why should someone go to heaven when they don't believe in it in the first place?

Well most people who don't believe in heaven don't believe in hell either, so why would they go there?

Saying 'going to heaven' is not like willingly going to some place on earth. It's not like saying "I don't believe in Canada so I'm not going to go there" or "I believe the Earth is flat so I'm not gonna sail too far off the coast so I don't fall off." You have no choice in where you go after you die, Allah decides whether you will go to heaven or hell, you have no choice other than the choices you make on earth that will determine which one you get in to.

Edited by Muhammad Ibrahim

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Well most people who don't believe in heaven don't believe in hell either, so why would they go there?

Saying 'going to heaven' is not like willingly going to some place on earth. It's not like saying "I don't believe in Canada so I'm not going to go there" or "I believe the Earth is flat so I'm not gonna sail too far off the coast so I don't fall off." You have no choice in where you go after you die, Allah decides whether you will go to heaven or hell, you have no choice other than the choices you make on earth that will determine which one you get in to.

Ive never heard that response before. Very good and thank you.

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1. No the ones who go to hell as Kafir are those who had gotten the message of Islam and Shi'a Islam perfectly, and were taught this, however even after understanding it and seeing it, and seeing the truth still rejected knowingly and arrogantly (Highlighted in Qur'an 3:87-88). And those not informed cannot be blamed. Apart from that if they had a lifetime to learn and did, yet still chose to disbelieve, what exactly did they do to go to heaven, keep in mind good deeds will benefit as the Qur'an says in Surah Rehman Ayat 60 "Hal Jazaaa Ul Ehsaanu Illal Ehsan"(Is the reward for good but good?).

2. Imam Ja'far As Sadiq (as) said: "If one group among the people of hellfire is destined to stay there eternally, this is because it was their intention to persist in sin if they were made immortal in this world. Likewise, it the people of paradise are destined to remain there eternally, this is because it was their intention always to obey God and His commands it they were made immortal in this world. The type of eternal existence each group enjoys is therefore determined by its own aims and intentions." (Wasa'il Al Shi'a Volume I, page 36)

3. Don't forget these Ayaat:

  • And ordain for us good in this world's life and in the hereafter, for surely we turn to Thee. He said: (As for) My chastisement, I will afflict with it whom I please, and My mercy encompasses all things; so I will ordain it (specially) for those who guard (against evil) and pay the poor-rate, and those who believe in Our communications. (7:156)
  • And when those who believe in Our communications come to you, say: Peace be on you, your Lord has ordained mercy on Himself, (so) that if any one of you does evil in ignorance, then turns after that and acts aright, then He is Forgiving, Merciful. (6:54)
  • Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and He forgives what is besides this to whom He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he indeed strays off into a remote error. (4:116)
  • Is the reward of goodness aught but goodness? (55:60)

Now all that aside, how hard is it to google that? Or crack open a book?

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People will go to Hell but after their punishment in Hell is over, they will come to Heaven.

So it is not like people will abide in Hell forever; unless if they murder a fellow believer in cold blood.

There is a Hadith I heard in a lecture that on Qiyamah, Allah will be forgiving so much from so many people that even Shaytan would contemplate in seeking forgiveness.

There is also Hadith that on Qiyamah Allah will grant a sinner Hell, to which he will run towards Hell.

Allah will ask why is Hell so precious to him as he is running eagerly to get there, he will reply that he never obeyed Allah in his life, so might as well obey Him now on Qiyamah for Hell.

Allah will be pleased from his reply, forgive his sins and grant him Jannah (Heaven)

I cannot quote the Hadith but would try to search them.

So Allah is the best Judge there is, and is full of forgiveness to us on this life and even during Qiyamah. :)

Pray to Him for Jannah regularly brother, the journey is not easy but extremely worth it.

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(bismillah)

(wasalam)

Quote
Allah will hold you responsible on the basis of your intention

…but He will call you to account for what your hearts have earned…[481]

It is mentioned in Tafsir Jawame that here, “what your hearts have earned”, means intention.

Imam Sadiq (a.s.) says in Wasaelush Shia, “On the Day of Judgment people will be gathered on the basis of intentions.”[482]

He further said, “The people of Hell will remain therein forever because, in the world, their intention was to disobey Allah forever if they were to live there forever. But the people of Paradise will remain in Paradise forever because, in the world, their intention was to obey Allah forever if they were to live there forever. Thus the people of Hell and the people of Paradise will live in their respective abodes because of their own intentions.”

And then he recited the verse in which it is mentioned that whatever a man does shows his intention.[483]

From Part 5 Intention.

https://www.al-islam.org/qalbe-saleem-immaculate-conscience-ayatullah-sayyid-abdul-husayn-dastghaib-shirazi/intention

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People will go to Hell but after their punishment in Hell is over, they will come to Heaven.

So it is not like people will abide in Hell forever; unless if they murder a fellow believer in cold blood.

There is a Hadith I heard in a lecture that on Qiyamah, Allah will be forgiving so much from so many people that even Shaytan would contemplate in seeking forgiveness.

There is also Hadith that on Qiyamah Allah will grant a sinner Hell, to which he will run towards Hell.

Allah will ask why is Hell so precious to him as he is running eagerly to get there, he will reply that he never obeyed Allah in his life, so might as well obey Him now on Qiyamah for Hell.

Allah will be pleased from his reply, forgive his sins and grant him Jannah (Heaven)

I cannot quote the Hadith but would try to search them.

So Allah is the best Judge there is, and is full of forgiveness to us on this life and even during Qiyamah. :)

Pray to Him for Jannah regularly brother, the journey is not easy but extremely worth it.

[surah Taubah 9:68] Allah has promised the hypocrite men and hypocrite women and the disbelievers, the fire of hell in which they will remain forever; that is sufficient for them; and Allah’s curse is upon them; and for them is a never ending punishment.

[Surah Taubah 9:63] Do they not know that for one who opposes Allah and His Noble Messenger, is the fire of hell, to remain in it forever? This is the greatest humiliation.

Key word being 'forever'.

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Salaam:

Why would Allah SWT, as I heard from someone debating with Hassanain Rajabali, punish someone with hell forever just because he didn't believe in him?

Thanks

Wa Aleikum Salaam,

In simple understanding (Without going too deep), It's the soul. The pure soul (Nafs-ul-Mutmainnah) with the pure heart with manifestation of Spirit of God will only enter to one place which is Heaven. Heaven (final place) was created for such a soul. The important part is this, those who believed in Allah (SWT) and even if they have some darkness in their heart, they will on Qiyama ask forgiveness and purification;

on the Day when Allah will not disgrace the Prophet and those who believed along with him. Their light will stream out ahead of them and on their right. They will say: "Our Lord, perfect our light for us and forgive us! You have power over all things." (Surat at-Tahrim, 8)

The other Soul which it's heart is full of darkness and because it's darkness it will veil the Spirit of God (such a heart will not believe in it's Creator and nor will they understand the value of the Existence). Thus Hell was created for such a soul. Such a heart does not deserve purification on Qiyama.

O Messenger! let not those grieve you who strive together in hastening to unbelief from among those who say with their mouths: We believe, and their hearts do not believe...Those are they for whom Allah does not desire that He should purify their hearts; they shall have disgrace in this world, and they shall have a grievous chastisement in the hereafter.[005:041]

Edited by Dhulfikar

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Because kafirs were kafirs until their last breath in this world

It's like if you constantly break a law you will be remain in jail forever or if you do some severe crime then you can get life imprisonment

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Salaam:

Why would Allah SWT, as I heard from someone debating with Hassanain Rajabali, punish someone with hell forever just because he didn't believe in him?

Thanks

Because He(swt) can do whatever He(swt) wants.

Of course this is not for just people, but also for jinn an malik.

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Allah (swt) doesn't send anyone to hell. People send themselves to hell. It's just like in any country: you can obey the laws and be free, or break them and go to jail.

Do you mean that you believe that a soul going to 'heaven' or 'hell' is not a result of Gods judgement on them as an act of 'will', but rather a natural consequence more like a mathematical equation?

Its interesting, but where does that leave room for Gods mercy? or for intercession for that matter (?)

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Do you mean that you believe that a soul going to 'heaven' or 'hell' is not a result of Gods judgement on them as an act of 'will', but rather a natural consequence more like a mathematical equation?

Its interesting, but where does that leave room for Gods mercy? or for intercession for that matter (?)

You are misunderstanding what I have said. Nobody is in hell because God wants them to be there. People are in the hellfire because they put themselves there. Allah (swt) wants all human beings to be in Jannah. Why else would he create it? God is the most merciful being we can imagine, but that does not take away from his just side. For him to be merciful, he has to be just. Would it be fair to ANYBODY of Adolf Hitler made it into heaven? Not at all. Hitler made certain choices that will lead him straight into the flames. If, while he was alive, he reformed, became a Muslim (or even a really good Christian), renounced everything he had done before that point, and worked to make peace in Germany and end the persecution, then I'm sure he would have a much higher chance of making it to Jannah. However, this is not the case. God is all merciful, but we have to meet him halfway.

It's like a judge in an American court saying "if you go to rehab and stay out of trouble for the next 2 years, I will erase your record and you can go free." However, if that person decides to ignore the judges MERCY (because obviously he deserved punishment in the first place), then the judge has no choice to punish him. It's not because the judge just decides to punish a person, it's because that person has made choices that will punish himself. I am a strong believer in human rights. I believe that any human has the right to do as they please, as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others. If a person is going around stealing stuff, that is infringing on the rights of others (to protect their property), and therefore he must be punished. The person that punishes him is not really being unmerciful, he is simply doing what he must. It was the thief that punished himself. The judge can grant him mercy, but only to a point. If the judge let's him off on the first offense, but he continues to commit the crime, he no longer can have a reasonable expectation of "mercy".

God gives us mercy, far beyond what we deserve. But if we take that mercy in vain and say "it's okay, we can keep breaking his law", then God is not in a place to help us anymore. We have to meet him halfway. We do what we can to obey him, and he forgives the rest (provided we ask for it).

Does that make sense and am I correct? Feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.

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Allah will neither increase nor decrease their punishment. They will be judged precisely according to their actions. This only applies to evil acts.

Every good deed will be increased tenfold. If this isn't a form of mercy!

I find eternal punishment harsh. But I can see it. There are extremely evil ppl around...

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ÈÓã Çááå ÇáÑÍãä ÇáÑÍíã

æÚáíßã ÇáÓáÇã

It is because if a believer would live on this earth for a thousand years he would still remain a servant of God. As for a disbeliever, if he would live on this earth for a thousand years he would still remain a disbeliever. Thus, God gives reward or punishment according to their intention.

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(bismillah)

Question:

Allah has set up punishment 1000 times worse than the  torments in this world, that will last for eternity and not for a few moments or days. And Allah’s punishment is for people who just didn’t believe in him, or did personal sins, like zina (adultery), which I know is horrible, but does it deserve punishment forever? Or am I wrong in God’s mercy and justice? Please clarify.

Answer:

The punishment of the Hereafter is eternal only for those who were stubborn against the Truth.

Such people remained stubborn their entire lives, despite being given countless chances to repent and submit to the Truth. In fact, they have reached a stage, where, as the Qur’an says below, even if they were returned to life after having tasted the fire of Hell, they would still go back to the same sins they used to commit.

“If you could but see when they will be held over the (Hell) Fire! They will say: “Would that we were but sent back (to the world)! Then we would not deny the Ayat of our Lord, and we would be of the believers! Nay, it has become manifest to them what they had been concealing before. But if they were returned (to the world), they would certainly revert to that which they were forbidden. And indeed they are liars.” (6:27-8)

Their punishment is eternal because, given the chance, they would have done evil eternally. Imam Sadiq (a.s) was asked the same question and he replied:

“Surely, people of Hell are eternally in Hell because their intention was if they lived in this world eternally they would disobey God eternally, likewise people of Paradise will be eternally in Paradise becasue their intention was if they lived in this world eternally they would worship God eternally.” (al-Kaafi, vol.2 p.85)

Their punishment is severe because of the magnitude of their transgressions. These people have denied the greatest and most obvious of Truths, and the only way they can do this is by having killed their conscience. A person who has killed their own conscience has usually also committed atrocious acts against his fellow beings, and if they had been given opportunity, their atrocities would have continued to forever get worse.

Allah (SWT) does not punish for all our sins. Rather, he punishes only for a small minority of them. In fact, the Qur’an says that if we were punished for all our sins, no creature would be left on earth to live. This is despite the fact that each sin, no matter how small, is a sin against the Creator who gave us every blessing imaginable. This makes every sin absolutely dire and deserving of indescribable punishment. Yet Allah (SWT) gives us respite upon respite, until a person may unfortunately shows that their heart is completely veiled and harsh, and instead of taking heed during their respite, continues to commit greater and greater crimes, thereby becoming deserving of hell.

An extract from Dua (supplication of) Abu Hamza to demonstrate the graveness of sin against Allah (SWT): ”

“(My Lord, I am The beseecher that You have given to,

The sinner that You have concealed,

I am the guilty that You have excused,

The worthless that You have made valuable,

The helpless, whom You have aided,

and I am the exile that You have given refuge.

My Lord, I am the one who has not felt ashamed before  You in private,

and was not observant of You in public,

I am the committer of the grave and cunning  transgressions,

I am the one who showed daring against his Master,

I am the one who disobeyed the Powerful in the heavens,

I am the one who gave bribes in order to commit acts of  disobedience against the Exalted (Lord)

I am the one that, when informed of sinful acts, went  hurrying towards them,

I am the one to whom You gave respite, but I did not  desist,

The one whose sins You concealed, but he did not show  any shame,

The one who committed so many acts of disobedience that  he has violated (all terms),

and I am the one whose status fell in Your eyes, but he  did not care,

By Your Forbearance, You have given me respite."

http://www.askthesheikh.com/is-it-fair-that-god-punishes-sinners-for-eternity-in-the-next-world-for-their-sins/

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[surah Taubah 9:68] Allah has promised the hypocrite men and hypocrite women and the disbelievers, the fire of hell in which they will remain forever; that is sufficient for them; and Allah’s curse is upon them; and for them is a never ending punishment.

[Surah Taubah 9:63] Do they not know that for one who opposes Allah and His Noble Messenger, is the fire of hell, to remain in it forever? This is the greatest humiliation.

Key word being 'forever'.

The Holy Quran at 4:93 also says that if a believer is intentionally murdered, his shall abide in Hell forever.

But I have always read that people who did not commit Shirk but their sins were greater than their good deeds in general, they are to be in Hell and will come to Heaven after their long punishment is over with.

That is true as well right?

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You are misunderstanding what I have said. Nobody is in hell because God wants them to be there. ...

(salam)

Your second sentance raises a question. How can Allah(swt) have a "want" ? You have "kun fayakun" but that is not necessarily a "want".

The only thing we about have is this arena is the Quranic revelation that Allah(swt) looks forward to the Last Day.

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Salaam:

Why would Allah SWT, as I heard from someone debating with Hassanain Rajabali, punish someone with hell forever just because he didn't believe in him?

Thanks

We actually have two problems:

(1) If Allah let too many non-believers into heaven, even if they were good non-believers, what is the point in being a Muslim or even believing in him? This suggests the Quran or Islam isn't essential to getting salvation.

(2) If Allah sent too many people to hell, it raises questions of justice and love. Allah is all powerful, so, he can stop people from going to hell if he wanted to. Is infinite punishment (eg. eternity) warranted for finite sins on earth? We see the mention of infinite punishment many, many times ( http://corpus.quran....?q=xld#(9:68:8) ).

We have problems with things like Shirk is well. Allah is the definition of power almost. He is the most supremely powerful and intelligent thing. Yet, why would such a tiny, petty thing like not believing in him be the only sin he can't forgive? Indeed, being all powerful, he could forgive it if he wanted to, he just chooses not to. Why is this petty thing the only unforgivable sin compared to things like rape, child abuse or genocide? Surely, God is not so petty, it almost sounds like something a child would do.

We have another problem as well, surely, some people are just on the border line. Some people are a tiny bit more good than bad. These people would seem to end up in heaven, with all its bliss. Some are a tiny bit more bad than good, these people will wind up in a place of unimaginable torture and have boiling lead poured down their throats. Does this tiny difference in moral behavior warrant such a tremendously huge gap in bliss or torture? It seems manifestly unjust.

Allah (swt) doesn't send anyone to hell. People send themselves to hell. It's just like in any country: you can obey the laws and be free, or break them and go to jail.

Allah is all powerful.

So, Allah can prevent people to going to hell if he so chooses.

People quite clearly go to hell.

Therefore, your point it moot. It doesn't matter if they do somehow send themselves to hell and you think this cleans Gods hands, it doesn't. He could stop them winding up in hell, due to his infinite power (unless you're willing to grant he isn't perfectly powerful or perfect for that matter) and yet, he chooses not to. The question should be why does he explicitly choose to let someone slip through the cracks in his hands and into hell?

1. No the ones who go to hell as Kafir are those who had gotten the message of Islam and Shi'a Islam perfectly, and were taught this, however even after understanding it and seeing it, and seeing the truth still rejected knowingly and arrogantly (Highlighted in Qur'an 3:87-88). And those not informed cannot be blamed. Apart from that if they had a lifetime to learn and did, yet still chose to disbelieve, what exactly did they do to go to heaven, keep in mind good deeds will benefit as the Qur'an says in Surah Rehman Ayat 60 "Hal Jazaaa Ul Ehsaanu Illal Ehsan"(Is the reward for good but good?).

Considering the differences even Muslims have among themselves, it'd be very hard to believe a large proportion of people got the message perfectly. You're answer is a very good one, no doubt. I think it more than acceptably solves the problem. If i was a Muslim and i thought hell was a problem, i'd happy take your solution.

My interpretation of what you're saying is that basically if you haven't had Islam presented to you in a perfect way, its not necessarily your fault for not believing it, afterall, everything else you've been presented thats been called "Islam", actually wasn't a portrayal of true Islam. If you accidentally or unintentionally do something it doesn't seem punishment is warranted. Almost the same idea here.

It largely solves the problem God sending good non-believers to hell, because, in your idea, they simply just wouldn't go there and the whole criticism falls apart.

What strikes me about what you said though is it seems very few people would be in hell then. Indeed, it seems just logical to say the vast majority of humans who have ever lived haven't been even exposed to Islam as a whole (even opened a Quran or something) or even if they've got most of the picture of Islam, that picture hasn't been perfect.

I also realise you mentioned as Kafir , it seems this implies people will still go to hell for other reasons (eg. murder, rape, whatever), its just that not all that many people will go to hell simply because they are non-believers.

However, considering Islam is the perfect system of ethics, if you haven't got the full message, can you be blamed for doing some of the things that would get you in hell?

Haha, indeed, it seems in my interests to never open a philosophy book or Quran again. The more i know, the closer i might get to the right version and the closer i'll get to dooming myself.

Reminds me of a joke:

Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"

Priest: "No, not if you did not know."

Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"

Edited by Pascal

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We actually have two problems:

(1) If Allah let too many non-believers into heaven, even if they were good non-believers, what is the point in being a Muslim or even believing in him? This suggests the Quran or Islam isn't essential to getting salvation.

(2) If Allah sent too many people to hell, it raises questions of justice and love. Allah is all powerful, so, he can stop people from going to hell if he wanted to. Is infinite punishment (eg. eternity) warranted for finite sins on earth? We see the mention of infinite punishment many, many times ( http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=xld#(9:68:8) ).

We have problems with things like Shirk is well. Allah is the definition of power almost. He is the most supremely powerful and intelligent thing. Yet, why would such a tiny, petty thing like not believing in him be the only sin he can't forgive? Indeed, being all powerful, he could forgive it if he wanted to, he just chooses not to. Why is this petty thing the only unforgivable sin compared to things like rape, child abuse or genocide? Surely, God is not so petty, it almost sounds like something a child would do.

We have another problem as well, surely, some people are just on the border line. Some people are a tiny bit more good than bad. These people would seem to end up in heaven, with all its bliss. Some are a tiny bit more bad than good, these people will wind up in a place of unimaginable torture and have boiling lead poured down their throats. Does this tiny difference in moral behavior warrant such a tremendously huge gap in bliss or torture? It seems manifestly unjust.

Allah is all powerful.

So, Allah can prevent people to going to hell if he so chooses.

People quite clearly go to hell.

Therefore, your point it moot. It doesn't matter if they do somehow send themselves to hell and you think this cleans Gods hands, it doesn't. He could stop them winding up in hell, due to his infinite power (unless you're willing to grant he isn't perfectly powerful or perfect for that matter) and yet, he chooses not to. The question should be why does he explicitly choose to let someone slip through the cracks in his hands and into hell?

Why do you bring your face in every topic that doesnt concern you and your ilk and is directed to muslims? You dont even know what shirk is, you think it includes not believing in God's existence. I've said this before, these topics are really not your turf and you should back away from them. They're directed to a muslim audience. Just look at the following:

1) If Allah let too many non-believers into heaven, even if they were good non-believers, what is the point in being a Muslim or even believing in him? This suggests the Quran or Islam isn't essential to getting salvation.

Allah is all powerful.

So, Allah can prevent people to going to hell if he so chooses.

People quite clearly go to hell.

Therefore, your point it moot. It doesn't matter if they do somehow send themselves to hell and you think this cleans Gods hands, it doesn't. He could stop them winding up in hell, due to his infinite power (unless you're willing to grant he isn't perfectly powerful or perfect for that matter) and yet, he chooses not to. The question should be why does he explicitly choose to let someone slip through the cracks in his hands and into hell?

Maybe because of the ability to discriminate between right and wrong initially? Free will, guilt lying on us, the freedom making all of life a test and not giving the guilty and good bouncy castles at an equal rate?

This is not even part of the discussion and you have the gall to add a bigger heap of strawmen, your concerns; reserve your own issues in your own topic or the philosophy forum at least. Ever heard of different grades of heaven?

Edited by Lanatin

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I think this question ultimately relates to two debatable parts:

1) Is disbelief in God enough to make someone unrighteous/bad/unjust/evil?

2) If you are unrighteous/unjust/bad/evil, should you be tortured?

The answer in Quran seems to me to be yes to both, if you disbelieve in God, it makes you unrighteous/unjust/evil. And if you are bad/unjust/unrighteous, you should be tortured forever (there is verses that show it's forever contrary to what Muslims often claim and contrary to what hadiths say, and I'm not talking about the words "khaleedon" or "Abada", but rather phrases like "and they will never come out of the fire""we will not decrease the punishment").

I believe however these answers are in the negative. Torture is just cold, and there is all sorts of others way to punish that are more reasonable. And should a punishment be eternal is another question. It's different to state it's just, as everyone will argue the other side is the one stuck in plato's cave and there idea of justice is distorted, but should justice in this instance override mercy and compassion? That is the other part of the question to number 2.

My honest advice would be once you actually know the answer to these questions, it will be very clear. And my honest opinion is that Muslims believe yes and yes to both these questions simply because their religion teaches so and that they believe their religion is correct.

And these questions are existential questions about what it means to be a human. Why? Because our concept of ultimate greatness and ultimate morality is linked to what we believe makes a human great or moral.

Ask yourself what you sincerely believe deep inside your heart and listen to the inner messenger of God within the soul. What do you believe about love? What you believe about justice? What do you believe about your fellow humans whom don't believe in God? What do you believe about compassion and mercy?

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Why do you bring your face in every topic that doesnt concern you and your ilk and is directed to muslims? You dont even know what shirk is, you think it includes not believing in God's existence. I've said this before, these topics are really not your turf and you should back away from them. They're directed to a muslim audience. Just look at the following:

Every topic? Surely you're joking. Go to the front page, do you see my name on every board?

Go to the first page of the general board, how many topics have i even posted in? This one and N-E-R-D's topic which was directed at everyone and i legitimately wanted to know more about what he was saying because i thought he did indeed write it and live in Belgium and it wasn't just cut and paste (which it turned out to be).

Go to the second page. I have one post there too. It's in a thread about Facebook tracking you around the web. I gave some links to useful software.

Nothing on the third.

My sole post on the fourth was attempting to help someone asking about contemporary philosophers.

Considering each page alone is a good 30-40 topics, it's nothing, 4 out of something like 120. It's not like i'm sitting here interjecting in every single thread, in every single board. I always stay out of the quran/prophet/social+marriage/Imam/Laws forums. I've made less posts in the entire past week than you have in the past hour.

You'll find the vast majority of my actual posts are in the philosophy or politics forum, you can check and count for yourself if you really care all that much - http://www.shiachat....ivity&mid=79952

I also do not see the massive injustice done by occasionally discussing philosophical issues in the general discussion section. I bring up things that will arise anyway and i'm not running some propaganda or lies campaign. If anything, thinking about the points i raise might help clarify the thoughts of those that read them by encouraging them to think about solutions and quite possibly strengthen the foundations of faith.

I say nothing or point out nothing that a believer themselves might not think of or present here, why is it different if it comes from me specifically? You don't seem to take much issue when other people (not pointing anyone out) stray into these boards.

I don't know what your issue is but you seem to believe you're seeing me almost everywhere. If it causes you so much trouble you're free to ignore the few posts i make here as soon as you see my name, you need not read a single line, feel free to apply it effective immediately.

I know very well what shirk is, it is worshiping other Gods or holding up partners or associating other Gods with the one God much like the pre-islamic pagans and animists would of, apologies if my argument wasn't worded clearly enough. I'll address your other responses at another time.

Edited by Pascal

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Every topic? Surely you're joking. Go to the front page, do you see my name on every board?

Nah not every topic, your nose still sticks out in many though. Not surprised you went off on a tangent on that little word though.

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A problem the atheist share, they think God is sentimental. They call upon justice but fails to grasp its essence. So, they are always between two extremes: summon a court of justice and gain more than you deserve [due to the lack of rulings], or remain quite and be buried alive under the earth. But, when true justice come, it falls upon them like rain of arrows, so they take cover behind shields of slogans and so-called-rights. And by God! They will not follow His path until the book of God is changed, manipulated and shaped after their desires and passions; rulings and government. Tell me, are you more knowledgeable and wiser than God?

May their arrogance destroy them and their haughtiness conceive them misfortune.

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On 28/09/2012 at 11:45 PM, Muhammad Ibrahim said:

Allah does not put all who don't believe in Him in hell, only 'bad' people. For example, someone like Tenzin Gyatso (the Dalai Lama) may be able to get into heaven.

You are not certain. Those who deny afterlife and Qiyamat are in great loss

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On 28/09/2012 at 6:15 PM, Ali.20 said:

Salaam:

Why would Allah SWT, as I heard from someone debating with Hassanain Rajabali, punish someone with hell forever just because he didn't believe in him?

Thanks

Because Allah has been very patient for an infinite amount of years and doesnt want to tolerate any disrespect. The proofs are there yet people dont want to see it, but there is this hadeeth:

ـ رسولُ اللهِ‏ِ (صَلَّيَ اللهُ عَلَيهِ وَ آلِهِ) : يَخْرُجُ مِن النّارِ مَن كانَ في قَلبهِ‏ مِثْقالُ ذَرّةٍ مِن إيمانٍ . 

The Prophet Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå said, ‘He who has even an atom’s weight of faith in his heart will leave the Fire.’[Kanz al-`Ummal, no. 284]

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