Didn;t Umar Marry Umm Kulthum Bint Ali?

[Abu Hesham]

First of all i just want to explain my background so there is no confusion about why i asked this question. I am a revert to Islam who, before accepting Islam, knew nothing about Shia/Sunni. I am a Sunni in practice and a Shia in allegiance but i still refrain from calling myself sunni/shia/sufi/etc..because RasulAllah was only a Muslim. Secondly, I am asking this question to bring to light that if Ali let his daughter, Umm Kulthum, marry Umar ibn al Khattab wouldn't that mean there were no problems between the two men?

Edited September 20, 2012 by PracticesSunniLovesShia

[titumir]

First of all i just want to explain my background so there is no confusion about why i asked this question. I am a revert to Islam who, before accepting Islam, knew nothing about Shia/Sunni. I am a Sunni in practice and a Shia in allegiance but i still refrain from calling myself sunni/shia/sufi/etc..because RasulAllah was only a Muslim. Secondly, I am asking this question to bring to light that if Ali let his daughter, Umm Kulthum, marry Umar ibn al Khattab wouldn't that mean there were no problems between the two men?

In practice, if you go to a court of law, you will find that it always provides more weight to direct evidence, rather than circumstantial evidence. If you have direct evidence and circumstantial evidence directly contradicting each other, then always the direct evidence is taken and circumstantial evidence is discarded.

We can hardly discard all the reports of the secret burial of the daughter of the Prophet (saw), the denying of the pen and paper to the Prophet (saw) to write his will, and the threat to attack the house of Sayyida Fatima and Ali (as) , which are recorded in Sunni sources as well, to say nothing of the injuring of Sayyida Fatima (as) , which is recorded in Shia sources. Also remember that the grave of Sayyida Fatima (as) is still unknown to this day. These are all stronger evidences of a bad relation between Umar and the Ahlulbayt. We cannot discard all those evidences.

Considering everything, I would say that the marriage might be a fabrication or a confusion, with another Umm Kulthum being mistaken for Imam Ali (as) 's daughter.

[Abu Hesham]

In practice, if you go to a court of law, you will find that it always provides more weight to direct evidence, rather than circumstantial evidence. If you have direct evidence and circumstantial evidence directly contradicting each other, then always the direct evidence is taken and circumstantial evidence is discarded.

We can hardly discard all the reports of the secret burial of the daughter of the Prophet (saw), the denying of the pen and paper to the Prophet (saw) to write his will, and the threat to attack the house of Sayyida Fatima and Ali (as) , which are recorded in Sunni sources as well, to say nothing of the injuring of Sayyida Fatima (as) , which is recorded in Shia sources. Also remember that the grave of Sayyida Fatima (as) is still unknown to this day. These are all stronger evidences of a bad relation between Umar and the Ahlulbayt. We cannot discard all those evidences.

Considering everything, I would say that the marriage might be a fabrication or a confusion, with another Umm Kulthum being mistaken for Imam Ali (as) 's daughter.

I agree that denying the Prophet a pen and paper is strange. But this raises another question, wasn't the Prophet illiterate? So how could he want a pen and paper to write? And secondly, i heard that Sayyida Fatima was told by the Prophet that she will die within 6 months of his death, what is the Shia opinion of this, did he tell her she would die according to the Shia? ......I am a revert who has been around nothing but Sunni since day one so please excuse me if i sound one sided, its all i know, hence i joined this shiachat to communicate with Shia's to better understand what they believe.

[muhibb-ali]

Read here for very detail review on this issue:

http://ahlubait.wordpress.com/2012/09/03/marriage-of-umm-kulthum-with-umar-analytical-review/

Wassalam

[titumir]

I agree that denying the Prophet a pen and paper is strange. But this raises another question, wasn't the Prophet illiterate? So how could he want a pen and paper to write? And secondly, i heard that Sayyida Fatima was told by the Prophet that she will die within 6 months of his death, what is the Shia opinion of this, did he tell her she would die according to the Shia? ......I am a revert who has been around nothing but Sunni since day one so please excuse me if i sound one sided, its all i know, hence i joined this shiachat to communicate with Shia's to better understand what they believe.

1. We know he couldn't read at the start of his Prophethood. Maybe he learnt to write in the 23 years since? And if he didn't know how to write, why would he ask for a pen and paper? Anyway, no matter what, it was a capital crime to deny the Prophet pen and paper to write his will. He said he would write something which, if we followed it, we would never go astray.

2. Secondly, Sayyida Fatima (as) died soon after the Prophet (saw). Even if she was told that she would be the first to follow him, which I think Shia believe as well (I'm also a revert), it wouldn't excuse any bad behaviour with her, such as threatening her house or actually hurting her. Imagine I have the ability to foretell the future, and I tell my daughter: You will be murdered 4 months from now. It wouldn't be an excuse for the murderer who actually killed her. It would still be a massive crime.

[Hot hot]

This is an oft discussed topic refer to this for both of the views http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umar's_marriage_to_Umm_Kulthum

And you can searxhthe similar threads over here

Good luck

[Abu Hesham]

I have one more question pertaining to the subject. If Ali (radiallah anhu) was angry with the Khalifa's for stealing his position, then why were Hussein and Hassan (radiallah anhum) standing guard outside of Uthman's (radiallah anhu) house the night he was assassinated? If they felt betrayed would they risk there lives for a thief?

[Ashiq Aay Sahaba]

Salam-O-Walikum...

@PSS

1st of i ask Allah to make u follow Quran and Sunnah of Beloved Prophet Mohammad(sallah hu alhi wa salam)

ãÍãÏ Èä íÍíì æÛíÑå Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÚíÓì Úä ÇáÍÓíä Èä ÓÚíÏ Úä ÇáäÖÑ Èä ÓæíÏ Úä åÔÇã Èä ÓÇáã Úä ÓáíãÇä Èä ÎÇáÏ ÞÇá: ÓÃáÊ ÃÈÇ ÚÈÏ Çááå Ú Úä ÇãÑÃÉ ÊæÝì ÒæÌåÇ Ãíä ÊÚÊÏ Ýí ÈíÊ ÒæÌåÇ ÊÚÊÏ Ãæ ÍíË ÔÇÁÊ¿ ÞÇá: Èáì ÍíË ÔÇÁÊ Ëã ÞÇá: Åä ÚáíÇ Ú áãÇ ãÇÊ ÚãÑ ÃÊì Ãã ßáËæã ÝÃÎÐ ÈíÏåÇ ÝÇäØáÞ ÈåÇ Åáì ÈíÊå

ãÌáÓی äÿ ãÑÇÉ ÇáÚÞæá Ì ۲١ Õ ١۹۹ Ñ ÇÓ ÑæÇیÊ ˜æ ÕÍیÍ ÞÑÇÑ ÏیÇ Àÿ۔

Rough Translation.

Khalid ask Abu Abdullah if husband die where should women continue here idat?he reply where ever she want.When Omer r.a die Alir.a comes to his and take umay khalsoom with her.

[Ashiq Aay Sahaba]

Salam-O-Walikum...

Regarding the story of pen & paper do u have hadits for this incident in your books?

[Ashiq Aay Sahaba]

Salam-O-Walikum...

incident of attacking house of sayedad nisa Ahlal janah Fatimah r.a u shia r not mutafiq on this incident and u r quoting our book how base ur religion on rewayah which is not sahih.Plz provide refrence from our books as u mention above that we have this riwayah.

[onetruthonegod]

as-salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah

i am a new revert as well and although i cannot answer your question with a reliable source, i can offer a piece of advice:

read this novel:

http://www.amazon.com/After-Prophet-Story-Shia-Sunni-Split/dp/0385523947

it provided me with a basis to research more information.

personally i follow Shia Islam, but i have many Sunni friends and learn many similarities and contrasts.

Insha Allah, you will find the answers you seek

[TAJODDIN]

On ‏۳۰‏/‏۰۶‏/‏۱۳۹۱ at 7:56 AM, Abu Hesham said:

First of all i just want to explain my background so there is no confusion about why i asked this question. I am a revert to Islam who, before accepting Islam, knew nothing about Shia/Sunni. I am a Sunni in practice and a Shia in allegiance but i still refrain from calling myself sunni/shia/sufi/etc..because RasulAllah was only a Muslim. Secondly, I am asking this question to bring to light that if Ali let his daughter, Umm Kulthum, marry Umar ibn al Khattab wouldn't that mean there were no problems between the two men?

Salamunalaykom

    Concerning the life and death of Umm Kulthoom, the daughter of Imam Ali and lady Fatima, lots of information in different books either shia or sunni are available.

Marriage between Umar and Umm Kulthoom has been noted in shia and sunni books but narrations which has quoted this matter are not the same. It is common in both two kinds of narrations that the second caliph requested Imam Ali to get marry with her however Imam Ali refused and rejected him. Umar again for other times repeated his request threateningly. At last, Imam Ali devolved his authority in this regard to his aunt, Abbas. Thus the contact between Umar & Umm Kulthoom was performed by Abbas’s permission and authority while she was not mature at that time. Umar died before she became mature then Imam Ali brought back his daughter to his house.

   You must notice that Umar by this action wanted to cover his criminal and aggressive behavior towards lady Fatima and compensate that although some scholars believe that this event did not happened or this Umm Kulthoom was someone else.

From the other side, we must take this point in consideration that maintaining Islam and keeping it away from any danger and destruction was more important for Imam Ali (A.S) than every thing else. I you take a look at his life during the period of three caliphs after the prophet's demise, you will see that protecting Islam was at the first level and preference in his mind. he did not want to throw Muslim community to the strife. Good to know that Imam Ali even named his sons Abubakr and 'Uthman. In different occasions Imam Ali provided the caliphs consultation if necessary (especially in conquests   فتوحات  ). 'Umar repeatedly said this sentence : "لو لا علی لهلک عمر ". He tried his best in order for Islamic laws to be performed correctly and strongly. When he saw that the third caliph did not punish Wlid ibn 'Uqbah, 'Uthman's cousin, Imam Ali himself performed Allah's decree in this regard and was not afraid from 'Uthman's anger.   

Therefore, as you see, Imam Ali hid his own self desires to protect the main body of Islam. It does not mean that he agreed with caliphs completely in all situations.  

Sources:

1. Ibn hajar, Tahzib al- tahzib, vol.1, p.44

2. Ibn sa'd, al- Tabaqat, vol. 3. P.259

3. Kulayni, al- Kafii, vol. 5, p. 246

4. Ibn A'tham Kufii, al- Futooh, vol. 2, pp.381-382

 

[TAJODDIN]

On 9/20/2012 at 3:48 PM, Abu Hesham said:

I have one more question pertaining to the subject. If Ali (radiallah anhu) was angry with the Khalifa's for stealing his position, then why were Hussein and Hassan (radiallah anhum) standing guard outside of Uthman's (radiallah anhu) house the night he was assassinated? If they felt betrayed would they risk there lives for a thief?

salam brother;

    As I told you, Ali did not want to throw Muslim community to the strife. This case is also among those actions to save Islam. He did not want this job (murdering a caliph) to be a custom amongst Muslims. If he had agreed with such a this behavior, he would have murdered the first and second caliph previously. I ask u, Was that right to be done by him or not? What would have happened if he did so? A very big and vast conflict and fighting would happened and many Muslims would be killed? Imam Ali's behavior towards 'Uthman at that specific time to protect the third caliph was merely to prevent a strife. If you take a look at the early history of Islam you will see that killing a caliph became a custom after all. Ali was assassinated in the mosque while saying prayer. Noteworthy that Ali tried his best in this regard until he let water be received to him although people who were angry from him did not allow him to drink water. Unfortunately Mu'awiyya tricked his people in Syria and told them that Ali closed the way of water to 'uthman and he was killed thirstily.  However, in the battle of Saffin which were imposed to Ali by Mu'awiyya in revenge for 'Uthman's murder, Ali let Mu'awiyya's army to take water during the fighting. Nevertheless, in Muharram 10^th (60 A.H) The warriors who took part in Karbala to kill the grandson of the prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) announce that they would kill Hussain ibn Ali in revenge for 'Uthman. They did not allow Hussain to take water for his family and his children. Actually it was their motto and killed Imam Hussain and his family thirstily.

Totally, all actions Ali did during the time of first three caliphs was to protect Islam and it does not mean that he agreed with all their policies and decisions completely in whole.

With best regard;

good luck

[TAJODDIN]

On ‏۰۵‏/‏۰۷‏/‏۱۳۹۱ at 9:52 PM, Ashiq Aay Sahaba said:

Salam-O-Walikum...

Regarding the story of pen & paper do u have hadits for this incident in your books?

salam brother;

regarding the Q you posed you can refer to these sources:

۱) صحیح بخاری باب کتابه العلم من کتاب العلم : ۱/۲۲
مسند احمد حنبل تحقیق احمد محمد شاکر ، حدیث ۲۹۹۲
طبقات ابن سعد : ۲/۲۴۴ ، بیروت
۲) طبقات ابن سعد ۲/۲۴۲ ، بیروت
صحیح بخاری ، باب جوائز الوفد من کتاب الجهاد ۲/۱۲۰ و باب اخراج الیهود من جزیره العرب ۲/۱۳۶ :”فقالوا : هجر رسول الله صلی الله علیه و سلم “
صحیح مسلم ، باب من ترک الوصیه ۵/۷۶ و تاریخ طبری ۳/۱۹۳
” ان رسول الله صلی الله علیه و سلم یهجر “
۳) طبقات ابن سعد : ۲/۲۴۲ ، بیروت

does it need to be translated to English?

[TAJODDIN]

On ‏۰۵‏/‏۰۷‏/‏۱۳۹۱ at 9:56 PM, Ashiq Aay Sahaba said:

Salam-O-Walikum...

incident of attacking house of sayedad nisa Ahlal janah Fatimah r.a u shia r not mutafiq on this incident and u r quoting our book how base ur religion on rewayah which is not sahih.Plz provide refrence from our books as u mention above that we have this riwayah.

salam brother;

this issue is among those which are certain and undoubtable so that no one can reject or deny that.

this is the list of some relevant sources you asked:

1. مسعودی شافعی ، اثبات الوصیة ، ص143

2. محمد بن جریر طبری ، تاریخ الطبرى ، ج2 ،‌ ص443

3. ابن قتیبه دینوری ، الامامة والسیاسة ، تحقیق الشیری - ج 1 - ص 30

4. بلاذری ، انساب الاشراف، بلاذرى، ج1، ص586

5. ابن أبی شیبه ، المصنف ، ج8 ، ص 572

other Qs arise here and they are that why Lady Zahra left a will to Ali that 'Umar and Abubar should not participate in her funeral and burial?

(صحیح بخاری ج 3 ص 36 –صحیح مسلم ج 2 ص72  ) And why she requested Ali to bury her at night and secretly? 

Plz give me an appropriate answer regarding these Qs?